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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM

Title: So you just died and...
Post by: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Good and Godless on November 30, 2011, 02:07:27 AM
That I found it hard to believe in a God that had (and would act on) so much wrath and anger in the first place.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 02:12:40 AM
None. If indeed such a fantasy came about, I would go to my man downstairs and attempt to set up a shop dedicated to research into permanent destruction of souls, which ought to be good business as weapons usually are, and/or to ruining god's paradise with whatever passes for highly toxic waste (Or something like that) there.

Then I would dedicate my eternity to payback for that "wrath" and "anger".
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 02:18:42 AM
I don't think reason would work.
Running, I assume that wouldn't work.
Fighting, he probably wants me to do that to justify his cruelty.

I'm going with this solution.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opossumsocietyus.org%2Fimages%2Fopossu1.jpg&hash=7f1f3ca71cafed2125515b8255bb96c078d4778f)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Whitney on November 30, 2011, 02:19:42 AM
If that really happened there would be no use arguing....can't change the mind of someone who has unreasonable rules and holds all the power.  It would be a big WTF moment and a time to 'pray' that those who believe hell is separation from god were right.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 02:29:32 AM
Hmm... An interesting thought... If christian god is supposed to be infinitely powerful (And I am talking mathematical infinity here, basically), that means that infinite power can indeed exist which in turn means that something, or someone, could be infinitely more powerful than the infinitely powerful god, yes? Because there really is no limit to infinity, but you can always add to it... Or multiply it...

That's what my Hellshop would be about, methink  ;D

Tant said, OP, presumably, you believe all that nonsense, so I reverse the question: what would you say when god's "wrath" and "anger" inevitably turned to you, you being a sinner and all? "Oh, forgive me, master! I regret, master! Can I lick your public-forum-acceptable euphemism for balls, master?"..? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi438.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq106%2FSelina_catz%2Femoticons%2Fanger%2520and%2520frustration%2FThe_Eyebrow_by_brokenboulevard_by_The_Emoticon_Club.gif&hash=e00cebf7621556e872e0a4fe123532ea112b821c)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on November 30, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

Hypotheticals such as this were part of what caused me to abandon any concept of God hating humanity.  Do you see how small this makes God look - it would be like me pouring gasoline on ants just to show them how angry I was that one of them stung me.  Assuming the truth of your hypothetical, there would be no argument to make.  God would simply pour gasoline on the unbelievers (petrol on the British unbelievers) and light the match.  If he's that angry, nothing could stop him.  On the other hand, if Jesus succeeded in his mission and "took away the sin of the world," then there would be nothing for God to be angry about. All would be forgiven. 
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 30, 2011, 03:20:30 AM
I'll go ahead and choke on the hot dog, I've always loved junk food.  So my choices are head out to Hell under my own steam or beg to spend eternity with a wrathful god.  Well, Satan may be wrathful too but somehow that doesn't seem so bad -- it's just par for the course rather than a huge disappointment.  The only thing I can imagine saying to the Xtian god is "adios".  
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 30, 2011, 03:30:35 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 30, 2011, 03:12:46 AM
Hypotheticals such as this were part of what caused me to abandon any concept of God hating humanity.  Do you see how small this makes God look - it would be like me pouring gasoline on ants just to show them how angry I was that one of them stung me.  Assuming the truth of your hypothetical, there would be no argument to make.  God would simply pour gasoline on the unbelievers (petrol on the British unbelievers) and light the match.  If he's that angry, nothing could stop him.  On the other hand, if Jesus succeeded in his mission and "took away the sin of the world," then there would be nothing for God to be angry about. All would be forgiven. 

Or it could be that the South Park boys are 1/2 right and Heaven has only 4,000 people in it and everyone else is in Hell.  Just the reason for it would be different.

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 03:35:46 AM
First I'd ask: what the hell is the trinity? ???
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 03:35:57 AM
How about asking it what 5 divided by 0 equals?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 03:37:52 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 02:29:32 AM
Hmm... An interesting thought... If christian god is supposed to be infinitely powerful (And I am talking mathematical infinity here, basically), that means that infinite power can indeed exist which in turn means that something, or someone, could be infinitely more powerful than the infinitely powerful god, yes? Because there really is no limit to infinity, but you can always add to it... Or multiply it...

That's what my Hellshop would be about, methink  ;D

Tant said, OP, presumably, you believe all that nonsense, so I reverse the question: what would you say when god's "wrath" and "anger" inevitably turned to you, you being a sinner and all? "Oh, forgive me, master! I regret, master! Can I lick your public-forum-acceptable euphemism for balls, master?"..? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi438.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq106%2FSelina_catz%2Femoticons%2Fanger%2520and%2520frustration%2FThe_Eyebrow_by_brokenboulevard_by_The_Emoticon_Club.gif&hash=e00cebf7621556e872e0a4fe123532ea112b821c)

I admit, if I were a mainstream protestant I'd be stuck for an answer. ;) However, I am not a mainstream protestant. I'm a Roman Catholic. So I believe I get my due. If I still have sin on my soul, but not enough to damn me, then it is purged in purgatory.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 03:39:23 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 02:29:32 AM
Tant said, OP, presumably, you believe all that nonsense, so I reverse the question: what would you say when god's "wrath" and "anger" inevitably turned to you, you being a sinner and all? "Oh, forgive me, master! I regret, master! Can I lick your public-forum-acceptable euphemism for balls, master?"..? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi438.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq106%2FSelina_catz%2Femoticons%2Fanger%2520and%2520frustration%2FThe_Eyebrow_by_brokenboulevard_by_The_Emoticon_Club.gif&hash=e00cebf7621556e872e0a4fe123532ea112b821c)

Meat balls?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_Oij0-PyQ-tc%2FR0B8iAHlKOI%2FAAAAAAAACV8%2F9F4nb3N1lKA%2Fs400%2FFlying_Spaghetti_Monster-tm.jpg&hash=44ff2d2704bb77d33c18e30337e6c96dd2f7e778)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 03:44:43 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 03:39:23 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 02:29:32 AM
Tant said, OP, presumably, you believe all that nonsense, so I reverse the question: what would you say when god's "wrath" and "anger" inevitably turned to you, you being a sinner and all? "Oh, forgive me, master! I regret, master! Can I lick your public-forum-acceptable euphemism for balls, master?"..? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi438.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq106%2FSelina_catz%2Femoticons%2Fanger%2520and%2520frustration%2FThe_Eyebrow_by_brokenboulevard_by_The_Emoticon_Club.gif&hash=e00cebf7621556e872e0a4fe123532ea112b821c)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_Oij0-PyQ-tc%2FR0B8iAHlKOI%2FAAAAAAAACV8%2F9F4nb3N1lKA%2Fs400%2FFlying_Spaghetti_Monster-tm.jpg&hash=44ff2d2704bb77d33c18e30337e6c96dd2f7e778)

Is that the answer?
Stuff yourself on FSM noodles till you choke and die and then vomit on Gawd, who will then be consumed by the resurrected FSM?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 03:46:38 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 03:44:43 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 03:39:23 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 02:29:32 AM
Tant said, OP, presumably, you believe all that nonsense, so I reverse the question: what would you say when god's "wrath" and "anger" inevitably turned to you, you being a sinner and all? "Oh, forgive me, master! I regret, master! Can I lick your public-forum-acceptable euphemism for balls, master?"..? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi438.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq106%2FSelina_catz%2Femoticons%2Fanger%2520and%2520frustration%2FThe_Eyebrow_by_brokenboulevard_by_The_Emoticon_Club.gif&hash=e00cebf7621556e872e0a4fe123532ea112b821c)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_Oij0-PyQ-tc%2FR0B8iAHlKOI%2FAAAAAAAACV8%2F9F4nb3N1lKA%2Fs400%2FFlying_Spaghetti_Monster-tm.jpg&hash=44ff2d2704bb77d33c18e30337e6c96dd2f7e778)

Is that the answer?
Stuff yourself on FSM noodles till you choke and die and then vomit on Gawd, who will then be consumed by the resurrected FSM?

Sounds as good as any other! ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Crow on November 30, 2011, 03:47:28 AM
Fuck staying with that cunt for eternity. Especially if its full of his boring preachy mates.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 05:43:58 AM
Seriously though, these type of boogeyman stories may work on kids, but...

::)

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: KingPhilip on November 30, 2011, 05:52:57 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 05:43:58 AM
Seriously though, these type of boogeyman stories may work on kids, but...

::)



This is a really big part of what turned me off to the idea of God when I was younger. My parents brought me up teaching me that God loved me, he was the kindest being to ever exist, he will always forgive, etc. But then once I hit like 10 or so I started reading about do this and you go to Hell to burn, do this and you burn, do that and you burn. All through the bible there's an incredible amount of stories that just so totally contradicted the image of a loving, caring god that I'd been given, that I really didn't know what to think about it. After realizing how angry and violent the Christian god really was I didn't enjoy the idea of them being right anymore, nor me being  a good person and getting rewarded by spending all eternity singing praise to such a being.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 07:23:29 AM
QuoteIt is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. ~ Krishnamurti

I like your sig ;D

Anyways, seems like some people need an authoritatian tyrant. He has yet to answer what it means to be "too Christian".

My take on it is, some theists really remind me of Denethor in this particular scene, especially when envisioning a world where there isn't an authoritarian tyrant to grant them eternal certainty and one side of the dichotomy that is the world. ::) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpPAz0tz98)

(pay close attention to 1:11 onward.)

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Norfolk And Chance on November 30, 2011, 09:37:49 AM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

I would use no argument. I would tell god to go and fuck himself.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: OldGit on November 30, 2011, 10:44:36 AM
Bertrand Russel said that in that situation he would answer, "Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence."
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on November 30, 2011, 11:01:54 AM
I'd point out to said god that he should have made a bit more effort to show he exists, rather than basing knowledge of his existence on a ridiculous book of myths and a Church that has persecuted and murdered millions over the centuries. As well as promoting blind faith and opposing knowledge and scientific learning throughout history. I'd also ask said deity why he's so pathetic and insecure to feel the need to punish any non-believers, as that clearly make him a total cunt not worthy of my respect or belief.

Anyway, if there is a god or afterlife (which I very much doubt), it isn't yours. If there is, I'll be happily sharing a bottle of wine toasting Dionysos with all the other heathen in the Elysian Fields, rather than being bored rigid with a bunch of dull Catholics for all eternity. That really would be eternal torture...
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 12:27:05 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 30, 2011, 09:37:49 AM
I would use no argument. I would tell god to go and fuck himself.
You would get in on Asmo's power-tripping Hellshop idea though, yes?  ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 12:53:57 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 12:27:05 PM
You would get in on Asmo's power-tripping Hellshop idea though, yes?  ;D

Yes

I'll tell god I found his story beautiful but I distrusted the unworthy men who presented it to me and I'm very sorry.
I'll explain to him how his earthly marketing team is a real liability, the modern human just doesn't like their children being sodomised.

Anyway, I'll spare you the details they are loathsomely grovelsome, but rest assured I'll wheedle my way next to god and send you the key to his demise.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Buddy on November 30, 2011, 01:25:13 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 12:53:57 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 12:27:05 PM
You would get in on Asmo's power-tripping Hellshop idea though, yes?  ;D

Yes

I'll tell god I found his story beautiful but I distrusted the unworthy men who presented it to me and I'm very sorry.
I'll explain to him how his earthly marketing team is a real liability, the modern human just doesn't like their children being sodomised.

Anyway, I'll spare you the details they are loathsomely grovelsome, but rest assured I'll wheedle my way next to god and send you the key to his demise.

Yea, but this is the all-knowing magic man in the sky. Don't you know that they are human lie detecters  ::)

Personally, I would tell him to stick his bible where the sun doesn't shine and go down to hang out with the cool people. Or hot.. I guess.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 01:34:54 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 30, 2011, 01:25:13 PM

Yea, but this is the all-knowing magic man in the sky. Don't you know that they are human lie detecters  ::)

The all knowing thing is just bluster.
Our guy is very insecure, have you seen the ten commandments?
These rules are the creation of a grievously insecure being, not an omnipotent.
Just compliment and praise him, ask him how he defeated his greatest rival, how he defended the weakness he doesn't have...
He's just like any other evil genius wannabe, he'll do the monologue.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 30, 2011, 01:34:54 PM
He's just like any other evil genius wannabe, he'll blurt out his plan.
And grumpily silent Asmo will take notes and take over the empire.  ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Davin on November 30, 2011, 03:25:27 PM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AMYou find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?
Why is there an assumption that the god would be wrathful and/or angry? Might not need to do anything. In any case, I'm doing the best I can to make sure that I understand reality and to make decisions according to reality, if that makes the god angry, then there really isn't much I can do about that, so there is no reason to argue.

How does this belief thing work anyway?

If I say, "imagine a TV and if you imagine the correct one, then you get that TV, but if you don't then we destroy all your stuff." Is it enough that one imagined a TV? Is it enough that one imagined an HDTV? Is it enough that one imagined the correct brand? Or does one have to imagine the exact TV?

Because if you have to imagine the exact god, then any Christian is just as likely to fall into the wrath and anger of the god. Of course no one has the answer to any of those questions about god, I just wonder how anyone can go around trying to spread the fear of punishment from a god when they're most likely in the same boat.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on November 30, 2011, 05:07:34 PM
Too human  man, just too human. ::)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Stevil on November 30, 2011, 06:23:15 PM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?
The Christian god myth is just rubbish. I can't imagine such a hiddeous, psychopathic, self centered, shy, massachistic entity spending billions of years setting up our universe just so that it can spend thousands of years to tourture and kill humans.

I am absolutely stunned how Christians can believe in this rubbish.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 30, 2011, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: Stevil on November 30, 2011, 06:23:15 PM
I am absolutely stunned how Christians can believe in this rubbish.

It's traditional rubbish.  Things become a tradition because in some way they're useful and serving a purpose for a number of people.  The problem is that once anything becomes a tradition, getting rid of it becomes about 1,000 times harder, not matter how ridiculous or destructive it is.

By the way, I was wrong about the South Park guys claiming Heaven had a pop. of 4,000 (I think that's the Mormon estimate for the number of saved), South Park only gave it a pop. of 1,656:  Little boy you're going to Hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nrlieEfbRc&feature=related)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:13:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 30, 2011, 12:27:05 PM
You would get in on Asmo's power-tripping Hellshop idea though, yes?  ;D
Yes, I would love to. I want 40% of the profits, and I could market them in Heaven. You'd be surprised how many heathens get in there. ;)
But on a slightly more serious note, if you did die by whatever means, and found out the God is real, firstly, you wouldn't be given the chance to repent. He would talk of how you denied Him on Earth so He must deny you Heaven. Second, (Mainly directed at Davin) while living according to typical moral codes and having good ethics are all fine and well, that won't get you into Heaven. Being a good person is nice, but you have to be a Christian, meaning believing in God and the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Davin on November 30, 2011, 03:25:27 PM
Why is there an assumption that the god would be wrathful and/or angry? Might not need to do anything. In any case, I'm doing the best I can to make sure that I understand reality and to make decisions according to reality, if that makes the god angry, then there really isn't much I can do about that, so there is no reason to argue.
How does this belief thing work anyway?
Also to answer you question about belief, it's not about imagining the correct God. It's about understanding who He is and what He can do. (You know, the typical saying "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." and the stuff about Him creating the universe and light and just about everything we find on earth today.) So you don't have to imagine the correct TV. ;) Think of it as if it were the mind of a child. They don't fully understand that their imaginary friends aren't real, just like Christians don't believe that God isn't real.
And third, God is a merciful being, wanting nothing but the best for His children. The only thing He hates is sin, so unless you're a bigger sinner than me, I'm pretty sure He shouldn't be too terrible pissed off. ;)
*Note: This is all stuff that I've been brainwashed with all my life.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 30, 2011, 09:37:49 AM
I would use no argument. I would tell god to go and fuck himself.
And if you do find that there is a God, I would take your place in Hell just to hear you repent, swear on my afterlife. Js. ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tristan Jay on November 30, 2011, 09:17:12 PM
I love this thread, and the responses here!

My favorites are Norfolk's, Asmodean's, and Budhorse 4.  Send us the key, Magic Pudding.

I would ask him why he minimizes his sons sacrifice with laziness on his part.

I would ask why he exercises a double standard between him and us, and point out that most humans have a better track record within his own system than he does.

I would tell him to stop embarrassing himself.

Oh, hell; whatever.  I'd probably scream my lungs out cursing him, and try and bury an axe in his face, for my own satisfaction as well as to save the human race from his fuckishness.  I'm obsessed with the idea of chopping into his face with an axe.  I have no homicidal inclination of this order with anyone, but he is the exception.  If I didn't have an axe, I would still try to throttle him, or try anything in the hope of making a dent.

Asmodean, I want in on your R&D Deicidal weaponry shop.  Please?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:20:16 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on November 30, 2011, 09:17:12 PM
I love this thread, and the responses here!

My favorites are Norfolk's, Asmodean's, and Budhorse 4.  Send us the key, Magic Pudding.

I would ask him why he minimizes his sons sacrifice with laziness on his part.

I would ask why he exercises a double standard between him and us, and point out that most humans have a better track record within his own system than he does.

I would tell him to stop embarrassing himself.

Oh, hell; whatever.  I'd probably scream my lungs out cursing him, and try and bury an axe in his face, for my own satisfaction as well as to save the human race from his fuckishness.  I'm obsessed with the idea of chopping into his face with an axe.  I have no homicidal of this order with anyone, except him.  If I didn't have an axe, I would still try to throttle him, or try anything in the hope of making a dent.

Asmodean, I want in on your R&D Deicidal weaponry shop.  Please?
Being a Christian, I probably shouldn't love this response as much as i do... but to hell with it. That's awesome.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Davin on November 30, 2011, 09:32:54 PM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:13:45 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 30, 2011, 03:25:27 PM
Why is there an assumption that the god would be wrathful and/or angry? Might not need to do anything. In any case, I'm doing the best I can to make sure that I understand reality and to make decisions according to reality, if that makes the god angry, then there really isn't much I can do about that, so there is no reason to argue.
How does this belief thing work anyway?
Also to answer you question about belief, it's not about imagining the correct God. It's about understanding who He is and what He can do. (You know, the typical saying "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." and the stuff about Him creating the universe and light and just about everything we find on earth today.) So you don't have to imagine the correct TV. ;) Think of it as if it were the mind of a child. They don't fully understand that their imaginary friends aren't real, just like Christians don't believe that God isn't real.
Then it doesn't matter which religion in your opinion?

Quote from: not your typical...And third, God is a merciful being, wanting nothing but the best for His children. The only thing He hates is sin, so unless you're a bigger sinner than me, I'm pretty sure He shouldn't be too terrible pissed off. ;)
*Note: This is all stuff that I've been brainwashed with all my life.
You should probably be careful with your thinking, that is the reasoning I went through about your age and just a few years later, I was an atheist.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 30, 2011, 09:32:54 PM
Then it doesn't matter which religion in your opinion?
You should probably be careful with your thinking, that is the reasoning I went through about your age and just a few years later, I was an atheist.
Like I said, so long as you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of JC, ur good. And you're saying that to protect me from becoming an atheist?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Davin on November 30, 2011, 09:45:35 PM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 30, 2011, 09:32:54 PM
Then it doesn't matter which religion in your opinion?
You should probably be careful with your thinking, that is the reasoning I went through about your age and just a few years later, I was an atheist.
Like I said, so long as you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of JC, ur good.
That's a bit more specific, that is like imagining the correct brand of TV.

Quote from: not your typical...And you're saying that to protect me from becoming an atheist?
I did not have any intention of persuading you one way or another, I mostly just advocate for self reflection. Secondly, I can't protect you from anything, so I wouldn't try.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on November 30, 2011, 11:57:33 PM
Sooooo, if I don't believe in God, he'll be pissed at me after I die.
But I can still "talk" to him after I die? What would be the point? So he can scold me?
God sounds passive-aggressive.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 01, 2011, 12:48:57 AM
Quote from: Davin on November 30, 2011, 09:45:35 PM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 30, 2011, 09:32:54 PM
Then it doesn't matter which religion in your opinion?
You should probably be careful with your thinking, that is the reasoning I went through about your age and just a few years later, I was an atheist.
Like I said, so long as you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of JC, ur good.
That's a bit more specific, that is like imagining the correct brand of TV.

And it's still assuming that this is the correct brand of TV, and that one of the other brands that claims more or other things are required is not, in fact, the correct one.  There's absolutely no way of knowing for sure.

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Stevil on December 01, 2011, 01:04:21 AM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
Like I said, so long as you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of JC, ur good. And you're saying that to protect me from becoming an atheist?
This is silly talk, right?
Your actions don't matter, just as long as you believe without evidence in three events belonging to a person called Jesus...

Sounds like rubbish.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 02:14:12 AM
Quote from: Stevil on December 01, 2011, 01:04:21 AM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 30, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
Like I said, so long as you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of JC, ur good. And you're saying that to protect me from becoming an atheist?
This is silly talk, right?
Your actions don't matter, just as long as you believe without evidence in three events belonging to a person called Jesus...

Sounds like rubbish.

Agreed. So all the worse kind of criminals go to heaven and receive the ultimate reward just because they believe.

All of this is just so insanely out there. What a mess religion is.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 02:16:35 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 30, 2011, 11:57:33 PM
Sooooo, if I don't believe in God, he'll be pissed at me after I die.
But I can still "talk" to him after I die? What would be the point? So he can scold me?
God sounds passive-aggressive.

Passive-aggressive? I'm afraid you understate... :o

Dawkins put it nicely:  


"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Incredibly tribal. Which parts of those would you identify with, Ransom, as someone who is "too Christian"?

(And really, be careful what you wish for, you want or feel you need an authoritarian tyrant, that's what you'll get. Worth stressing that.)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 01, 2011, 03:00:34 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 02:16:35 AM
Incredibly tribal. Which parts of those would you identify with, Ransom, as someone who is "too Christian"?

It seems to me "too Xtian" would refer to adhering unreasonably to the New Testament rather than the Old.  Maybe he was insisting the wealthy give all their riches to the poor, as Jesus suggested (love to see a conservative politician try to get away with that some day).
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Fi on December 01, 2011, 03:01:19 AM
I'd ask him what his deal is.

If the Christian god truly loved us and didn't want us to go to Hell, he shouldn't have set us up for failure with the Garden of Eden. Besides that, he could easily change the rules at any time and allow all of his "beloved children" into Heaven. He's God. If he is omniscient, all-powerful, and always right, there's no logical reason he could not do this.

I'm always hearing this bullshit from Creationists that GOD IS SAD AND DOESN'T WANT YOU TO GO TO HELL A BLOO BLOO BLOO

Well then fix it, God! Sheesh! Do I have to do everything for you?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on December 01, 2011, 05:11:56 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 02:14:12 AM
So all the worse kind of criminals go to heaven and receive the ultimate reward just because they believe.
All of this is just so insanely out there. What a mess religion is.
I never claimed it made sense. This is just what is taught in most of the churches I've been to. If you've ever heard of the Chick Publications tracts, there's one that show a serial killer going to Heaven because he repented for his sins and asked God into his life, where as the sheriff, who was a good man, went to Hell because he never was a Christian.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 06:04:41 AM
Quote from: not your typical... on December 01, 2011, 05:11:56 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 02:14:12 AM
So all the worse kind of criminals go to heaven and receive the ultimate reward just because they believe.
All of this is just so insanely out there. What a mess religion is.
I never claimed it made sense. This is just what is taught in most of the churches I've been to. If you've ever heard of the Chick Publications tracts, there's one that show a serial killer going to Heaven because he repented for his sins and asked God into his life, where as the sheriff, who was a good man, went to Hell because he never was a Christian.

I'm familiar with those, and if I wasn't already aware of what they were, I would've thought that they were satirising those sort of beliefs.

My take on it is, based on the fear of uncertainty and hell, beliefs such as that and the Calvinist's version (for example) of proof that you're going to heaven is that you're rich here on Earth are the easiest to measure. That is, people like those sorts of beliefs (even though they aren't totally compatible) because then you could be sure. If you believe that all it takes is belief and you know you believe, then that's way more comfortable than some other fuzzy belief where you can't be as sure. If you believe that being rich is a sign that you're going to heaven and you're rich, then that is also a comfortable position. Measurable and certain.

Entrance into heaven based on works along isn't as comfortable. What sort of works? How much is good enough? What is more important, intent or result of those works?



Makes way more sense to me that way... ::)




Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 06:31:03 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 01, 2011, 03:00:34 AM
Maybe he was insisting the wealthy give all their riches to the poor, as Jesus suggested (love to see a conservative politician try to get away with that some day).

LOL :D

I'm going off into wild speculations myself, but I'd like to give him the chance to say what someone who is "too Christian" thinks before I make up my mind.

He's anonymous enough, it's not like he's going to be hunted down for defending his beliefs. ::)

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on December 01, 2011, 08:03:11 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 06:04:41 AM
My take on it is, based on the fear of uncertainty and hell, beliefs such as that and the Calvinist's version (for example) of proof that you're going to heaven is that you're rich here on Earth are the easiest to measure. That is, people like those sorts of beliefs (even though they aren't totally compatible) because then you could be sure. If you believe that all it takes is belief and you know you believe, then that's way more comfortable than some other fuzzy belief where you can't be as sure. If you believe that being rich is a sign that you're going to heaven and you're rich, then that is also a comfortable position. Measurable and certain.

Entrance into heaven based on works along isn't as comfortable. What sort of works? How much is good enough? What is more important, intent or result of those works?

Makes way more sense to me that way... ::)
That's assuming that all of this is real of course, which I'm going to assume you don't believe. and in all honesty from my own interpretation of how the Bible instructs people to live (with a bit more brainwashing from church) is that once someone accepts Christ into their life, they're supposed to not want to do bad things anymore and want to do nothing but good. Personally, I've never really experienced this, which for a short period of time caused me to doubt my own faith, but then I just accepted that some people weren't meant to be angels. The world needs a good dose of demons to remind those who go on blind faith that if they think earth is bad, hell sure isn't gonna be fun. :D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: not your typical... on December 01, 2011, 08:03:11 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 01, 2011, 06:04:41 AM
My take on it is, based on the fear of uncertainty and hell, beliefs such as that and the Calvinist's version (for example) of proof that you're going to heaven is that you're rich here on Earth are the easiest to measure. That is, people like those sorts of beliefs (even though they aren't totally compatible) because then you could be sure. If you believe that all it takes is belief and you know you believe, then that's way more comfortable than some other fuzzy belief where you can't be as sure. If you believe that being rich is a sign that you're going to heaven and you're rich, then that is also a comfortable position. Measurable and certain.

Entrance into heaven based on works along isn't as comfortable. What sort of works? How much is good enough? What is more important, intent or result of those works?

Makes way more sense to me that way... ::)
That's assuming that all of this is real of course, which I'm going to assume you don't believe. and in all honesty from my own interpretation of how the Bible instructs people to live (with a bit more brainwashing from church) is that once someone accepts Christ into their life, they're supposed to not want to do bad things anymore and want to do nothing but good. Personally, I've never really experienced this, which for a short period of time caused me to doubt my own faith, but then I just accepted that some people weren't meant to be angels. The world needs a good dose of demons to remind those who go on blind faith that if they think earth is bad, hell sure isn't gonna be fun. :D

Of course, assuming it's real, which true believers do. In their world, it's valid...

I don't even see it as an angel/demon thing or as some part in a greater scheme. Rather the world needs those to call out "ridiculous!" when something deserves it and if some people are living in Hell on earth, it is of their own making.  

As for those who see themselves in some sort of "spiritual" warfare, especially against certain types of situations and people, are a bit slow to realise that they're fighting a battle that can't be won. ::) No use repeatedly banging heads together. It's a question of time. ;D

Edited to add: I realise that what I wrote doesn't make that much sense but I feel a bit too mentally disperse to rewite it into something that does. I'm staring at the monitor blankly...  :-X
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xm1 on December 01, 2011, 10:18:02 PM



I believe that this could still actually happen, that I will still find myself before god and there would be some reason why god considered me good enough to be in heaven.

That the bible would not be adhered to because it was a work of man and not of god and I would find myself surrounded by family and friends and pets that all knew me before passing away. 
It would all be beautiful and warm and the pain would be gone.
We would huddle together and everyone including my cats would tell me its okay and we will live on happily forever.
And I won't even know the final second when it all just goes black.

And if it was real.  I shouldn't be the least bit worred.  If the god I was raised to believe in was real he should know exactly why I chose what I chose and he should know where exactly I stand without me saying a single word.  I would be cheerful.  At that moment it would not be me on trial, but god.  If he accepts me, then I would accept him, for seeing all the reasons I turned away and understanding that anyone in my place should have done the same thing.  If he rejects me, then I reject him, for being blind to the plight of this world and the filth that his followers carry out in his name.  If he casts me into hell, he is definitely evil and so all of his kingdom, and I would ask for no part of it.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 01, 2011, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: xm1 on December 01, 2011, 10:18:02 PM
I would find myself surrounded by family and friends and pets that all knew me before passing away.  
It would all be beautiful and warm and the pain would be gone.
We would huddle together and everyone including my cats would tell me its okay and we will live on happily forever.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.resplace.net%2FEmoticons%2FSick%2FVomiting.gif&hash=e312ca92879a9cfe15db3104b5858409429fbd04) You just gave The Asmo an ulcer.




:P
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xm1 on December 02, 2011, 02:08:35 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 01, 2011, 11:20:30 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.resplace.net%2FEmoticons%2FSick%2FVomiting.gif&hash=e312ca92879a9cfe15db3104b5858409429fbd04) You just gave The Asmo an ulcer.
:P

Sorry, thats just how every nde ive ever read about seems to plays out.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 02, 2011, 02:39:36 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 01, 2011, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: xm1 on December 01, 2011, 10:18:02 PM
I would find myself surrounded by family and friends and pets that all knew me before passing away.  
It would all be beautiful and warm and the pain would be gone.
We would huddle together and everyone including my cats would tell me its okay and we will live on happily forever.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.resplace.net%2FEmoticons%2FSick%2FVomiting.gif&hash=e312ca92879a9cfe15db3104b5858409429fbd04) You just gave The Asmo an ulcer.




:P

The cats part was OK.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 02, 2011, 09:29:07 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 02, 2011, 02:39:36 AM
The cats part was OK.

Well, yes, but the overall sentiment of it is so disgustingly... Sweet. And Asmodean, he gets ulcers from such and thus he has to perform acts of great evil to cure them.

When The Asmo sees someone huddling together, he wants it to be in fear, for one.  >:(
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xm1 on December 02, 2011, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 02, 2011, 09:29:07 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 02, 2011, 02:39:36 AM
The cats part was OK.

Well, yes, but the overall sentiment of it is so disgustingly... Sweet. And Asmodean, he gets ulcers from such and thus he has to perform acts of great evil to cure them.

When The Asmo sees someone huddling together, he wants it to be in fear, for one.  >:(

The description was intended to be exactly that to make a point.  Do you disagree, misunderstand, or just don't take interest?


Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 02, 2011, 12:57:30 PM
Quote from: xm1 on December 02, 2011, 11:55:52 AM
The description was intended to be exactly that to make a point.  Do you disagree, misunderstand, or just don't take interest?
Neither, really. Just stating that it gave me an ulcer  :P
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: OldGit on December 02, 2011, 01:02:05 PM
Quote from: xm1And if it was real.  I shouldn't be the least bit worred.  If the god I was raised to believe in was real he should know exactly why I chose what I chose and he should know where exactly I stand without me saying a single word.  I would be cheerful.  At that moment it would not be me on trial, but god.  If he accepts me, then I would accept him, for seeing all the reasons I turned away and understanding that anyone in my place should have done the same thing.  If he rejects me, then I reject him, for being blind to the plight of this world and the filth that his followers carry out in his name.  If he casts me into hell, he is definitely evil and so all of his kingdom, and I would ask for no part of it.

I agree with your moral standpoint, but I'd not be unworried.  Judging by the Bible, God may well be an evil maniac, so if one ends up burning in the eternal fire it won't be a great comfort to have won the intellectual argument.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sweetdeath on December 03, 2011, 05:36:28 AM
Argh, I went to target and missed all the fun. XD

Ah, well..
You know the whole "a serial killer can repent and go to heaven " thing ALWAYS bothered me.
It's like, if god is so awesome , then why doesn't he intervine in ANY way when an innocent is being raped or murdered?

A christian answer I usually get is "god loves his children so much. He must forgive their sins and hope they are guided to him."

What?! :(
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: MinnesotaMike on December 03, 2011, 08:28:40 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_9v_3LiDBFO0%2FTEZuo0P0soI%2FAAAAAAAAAiE%2F5xbsDcaJ_rM%2Fs1600%2F07-20-10%2BGates.jpg&hash=d4e19a629c83807cc17b013a1580c1bb2ddc1529)

Found this little gem floating around the internet, thought it was relevant...
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: OldGit on December 03, 2011, 10:15:32 AM
^ (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi647.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu198%2FRamblingSyd%2FLaughing_RoflSmileyLJ.gif&hash=408f9683dd143fb3e0c4dfb36ccf4b0387222924)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sweetdeath on December 03, 2011, 11:32:35 AM
Hahaha xDD!!
"YOUR   SHITTIN ME!" Would be my response as well.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 03, 2011, 12:08:33 PM
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on December 03, 2011, 08:28:40 AM
Found this little gem floating around the internet, thought it was relevant...

That would look great as a mural on the side of a building. 8)

What we need is an "Antichurch of the Antichrist" temple of reason where our right to have murals like that would be protected by the first amendment, right down to the "shit" and "slut" references.  8)

Maybe an ant could be our sacred symbol?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjustanimalpic.com%2Fanimals-pics%2Fant-3.gif&hash=c50287dc1110554647dbd387da8ab4a0c3d1a7d8)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 03, 2011, 02:19:45 PM
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on December 03, 2011, 08:28:40 AM
[img]
Found this little gem floating around the internet, thought it was relevant...
:D that's absolutely brilliant Mike, and no more unlikely to be true than a deity choosing to punish those that don't believe in it.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on December 05, 2011, 09:36:20 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 03, 2011, 05:36:28 AM
Argh, I went to target and missed all the fun. XD

Ah, well..
You know the whole "a serial killer can repent and go to heaven " thing ALWAYS bothered me.
It's like, if god is so awesome , then why doesn't he intervine in ANY way when an innocent is being raped or murdered?

A christian answer I usually get is "god loves his children so much. He must forgive their sins and hope they are guided to him."

What?! :(
Really!? I've never heard that one b4. I usually hear "He gives everyone free will. What people decide to do with it is something that He refuses to control. In the end, it all works out for the greater good." :P
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tristan Jay on December 06, 2011, 03:24:45 AM
Quote from: not your typical... on December 05, 2011, 09:36:20 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 03, 2011, 05:36:28 AM
Argh, I went to target and missed all the fun. XD

Ah, well..
You know the whole "a serial killer can repent and go to heaven " thing ALWAYS bothered me.
It's like, if god is so awesome , then why doesn't he intervine in ANY way when an innocent is being raped or murdered?

A christian answer I usually get is "god loves his children so much. He must forgive their sins and hope they are guided to him."

What?! :(
Really!? I've never heard that one b4. I usually hear "He gives everyone free will. What people decide to do with it is something that He refuses to control. In the end, it all works out for the greater good." :P

The free will answer is the one I've often heard, too.  One of the things that causes me frustration emerge from a follow up question to the free will thing that troubles me...I keep thinking of the Pharaoh who was ready to concede, at which point the bible says, "God hardened his heart."  Looks like interference, superficially.  I went hunting around and asking for answers to that one; couldn't lock in on an answer.  :(  I don't mean to undercut your response; I just figure that the process of question and answer, if continually worked through, is instructive to all sides of an argument.  Apologies if this is drifting off topic, too.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: not your typical... on December 06, 2011, 03:26:39 AM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 06, 2011, 03:24:45 AM
The free will answer is the one I've often heard, too.  One of the things that causes me frustration emerge from a follow up question to the free will thing that troubles me...I keep thinking of the Pharaoh who was ready to concede, at which point the bible says, "God hardened his heart."  Looks like interference, superficially.  I went hunting around and asking for answers to that one; couldn't lock in on an answer.  :(
Normally people will tell you to look in a different translation to see what it 'really means' and whatever.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

This is an interesting thread. I have been reading through some of the responses, and it got me wondering. What exactly would God have to be like or do in order for you to believe in him and honor him? Because it seems that there are some sort of standards and/or expectations that the Christian God isn't meeting. Just curious...
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 13, 2011, 01:32:15 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

This is an interesting thread. I have been reading through some of the responses, and it got me wondering. What exactly would God have to be like or do in order for you to believe in him and honor him? Because it seems that there are some sort of standards and/or expectations that the Christian God isn't meeting. Just curious...

Not being a much bigger dick than I am would be a good start.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 02:11:07 AM
No, really. I was hoping for a bit more contemplation and substance than that. Have you ever given it much thought?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:14:56 AM
My original response, for one, is the real deal. Why would this matter require any more contemplation..?

First, we need some nice proof of there actually being an afterlife. Provided that, we can speculate on what happens when you wake up dead. With no such proof, the speculation is utterly meaningless.

The same applies to the "nature" of gods. Without proof of and/or need for their existence, speculation is simply meaningless.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 03:15:12 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:14:56 AM
My original response, for one, is the real deal. Why would this matter require any more contemplation..?

First, we need some nice proof of there actually being an afterlife. Provided that, we can speculate on what happens when you wake up dead. With no such proof, the speculation is utterly meaningless.

The same applies to the "nature" of gods. Without proof of and/or need for their existence, speculation is simply meaningless.

Well, there IS an afterlife. It's what ever IS after you die. As to what that is exactly, you might not be sure. As for not speculating without proof, I obviously don't know you personally, but I would assume that as a responsible adult you probably speculate about the unknown all the time, e.g. anything regarding future events, sporting events, the stock market, whether a person will be a good mate, etc. As important and crucial as speculation about some of those things can be, none of them would even compare to the speculation or contemplation that would be necessitated by the possibility of the Christian God. If he is real and is who the Bible says that he is, wouldn't that be absolutely the most important thing that any of us could speculate about and contemplate? Just saying...
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 13, 2011, 04:31:51 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 02:11:07 AM
No, really. I was hoping for a bit more contemplation and substance than that. Have you ever given it much thought?

Imaginary afterlife with imaginary beings?  No, not really, not even when I was trying to be religious.  It's a cute idea but a bit too cartoonish to be taken seriously, and really, the way Xtians present their god is not very endearing. 
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on December 13, 2011, 04:43:07 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 02:11:07 AM
No, really. I was hoping for a bit more contemplation and substance than that. Have you ever given it much thought?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/215634_10150147649343091_510223090_6646028_1390958_n.jpg)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 13, 2011, 04:45:57 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 13, 2011, 04:43:07 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 02:11:07 AM
No, really. I was hoping for a bit more contemplation and substance than that. Have you ever given it much thought?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/215634_10150147649343091_510223090_6646028_1390958_n.jpg)

We need to have a smiley made of that pic, there are so many occasions for its use in this forum.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on December 13, 2011, 04:51:58 AM
I'm not going to lie, I've been waiting for an "appropriate" comment to use it :D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 13, 2011, 08:20:15 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 04:45:57 AM
We need to have a smiley made of that pic, there are so many occasions for its use in this forum.

What would we name it?

In a sentence, "You're shitting me, right?"

In a word, uh - hmm, I can't come up with a single word that captures it.  Can you?  Anybody?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tank on December 13, 2011, 08:21:53 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 13, 2011, 04:43:07 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 02:11:07 AM
No, really. I was hoping for a bit more contemplation and substance than that. Have you ever given it much thought?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/215634_10150147649343091_510223090_6646028_1390958_n.jpg)
LOL  ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tank on December 13, 2011, 08:23:08 AM
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 13, 2011, 08:20:15 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 04:45:57 AM
We need to have a smiley made of that pic, there are so many occasions for its use in this forum.

What would we name it?

In a sentence, "You're shitting me, right?"

In a word, uh - hmm, I can't come up with a single word that captures it.  Can you?  Anybody?

Oreally
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on December 13, 2011, 08:55:16 AM
Looks like a determined squinty eye.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: history_geek on December 13, 2011, 09:06:15 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 03:15:12 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:14:56 AM
My original response, for one, is the real deal. Why would this matter require any more contemplation..?

First, we need some nice proof of there actually being an afterlife. Provided that, we can speculate on what happens when you wake up dead. With no such proof, the speculation is utterly meaningless.

The same applies to the "nature" of gods. Without proof of and/or need for their existence, speculation is simply meaningless.

Well, there IS an afterlife. It's what ever IS after you die. As to what that is exactly, you might not be sure. As for not speculating without proof, I obviously don't know you personally, but I would assume that as a responsible adult you probably speculate about the unknown all the time, e.g. anything regarding future events, sporting events, the stock market, whether a person will be a good mate, etc. As important and crucial as speculation about some of those things can be, none of them would even compare to the speculation or contemplation that would be necessitated by the possibility of the Christian God. If he is real and is who the Bible says that he is, wouldn't that be absolutely the most important thing that any of us could speculate about and contemplate? Just saying...

Well, what about those who believe in reincarnation (*raises hand* thought I define it differently....)? Would the next life be "afterlife"? If this life is you newest reincarnation, is this "afterlife"?

Whenever I hear "afterlife" to me it always meen the egyptian-abrahamic (though I guess they base their ideas on some other religions) eternal "life" in your copy-paste soul-body in a form of paradise. The horror...*shudder*
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tfd.com%2Fwn%2F70%2F668A0-chill.gif&hash=5cc415ca3e2a5fa81ffdae5b01bb0a0584ec7c21)
Not so much the "paradise" part, but the "eternity" part....


Also, everyone most certainly do contemplate the unknown from time to time, but why would someone think about "afterlife" if they don't believe in it? Not much point really, and the value of such contemplation is arguable to begin with, if you ask me....

And why speculate about the Abrahamic "god"? It's just one of many that is claimed to be the "real" one, so what about all these others, shouldn't we think about them too, just in case, in a Pascal's wager kind of way...?

Also, I agreed with "O'Realy?"  ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Davin on December 13, 2011, 02:52:19 PM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

This is an interesting thread. I have been reading through some of the responses, and it got me wondering. What exactly would God have to be like or do in order for you to believe in him and honor him? Because it seems that there are some sort of standards and/or expectations that the Christian God isn't meeting. Just curious...
This question always gets asked, the best response I have to it is, "what do you got?" Maybe grammatically incorrect, but the sentiment is well expressed. The point is that nothing that has been presented so far is reasonable evidence. I don't ask someone what it will take to prove gravity to them, I just explain what it is and show them how it works. Because you're making the positive claim that there is a god, it is your responsibility to explain what this god thing is and show the evidence for it.

Because I can express the same for any positive claim that I make, I think it's fair that you should be able to answers these: What do you think is the best evidence for a god, and/or what is the most convincing argument for you that there is a god?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:58:59 PM
Quote from: history_geek on December 13, 2011, 09:06:15 AM
Also, everyone most certainly do contemplate the unknown from time to time, but why would someone think about "afterlife" if they don't believe in it? Not much point really, and the value of such contemplation is arguable to begin with, if you ask me....
I speculate as well, but not on the high tiers of uncertainty. If I meet somebody, I can speculate on whether or not that person and I can develop friendship, for instance, but I do not speculate as follows: "There might be a person in my closet. That person is probably A, B and C. Could I beome friends with him, I wonder..?"

It's assuming too much. I don't know if that person exists, I don't know if A, B and C are accurate attributes... WHY would I then speculate on our possible friendship? Waste of time.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2011, 03:01:52 PM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
This is an interesting thread. I have been reading through some of the responses, and it got me wondering. What exactly would God have to be like or do in order for you to believe in him and honor him? Because it seems that there are some sort of standards and/or expectations that the Christian God isn't meeting. Just curious...

First off, I'm not one to go looking for god (even dismissing all the claims theists have made thus far about their gods, which I find don't hold up to scrutiny). If I did, I would have no real way to really test if what I'm seeing really is what I think it is. Confirmation bias can be a bitch.

Maybe after I die, if there is a living afterlife, then I'll know. I'm the type of person who needs to see with my own eyes, not rely on what others say, especially in the case of religions, where religious authorities are not demonstrable authorities. If they were, there wouldn't be so many religions and so many different branches within each religion that claim a different divine Truth. ::)

That they're mistaken, or delusional is way more likely, until they can really show that they're right.  
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
This is an interesting thread. I have been reading through some of the responses, and it got me wondering. What exactly would God have to be like or do in order for you to believe in him and honor him? Because it seems that there are some sort of standards and/or expectations that the Christian God isn't meeting. Just curious...
I'd like a bit more evidence for his existence than a 2-3000 year old book of myths written by pretty unenlightened people who thought the Earth was flat. I wouldn't take their word as truth on any subject matter, given how little they actually knew about the universe. They didn't even know that the Americas existed, or that the Earth revolves around the Sun, so why the fuck should I take their word about anything? Particularly stuff like how the world came into being or what happens when you die. I live in the 21st century, not the first century!

Quote from: CAlden on December 13, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
If he is real and is who the Bible says that he is, wouldn't that be absolutely the most important thing that any of us could speculate about and contemplate? Just saying...
The same goes for Mithras, Baal, Zeus, Indra, Allah, Yahweh (the Jewish version), Isis, Osiris, Sobek, Apollo, Odin, Thor etc etc. I really haven't got time to honour and worship the thousands of deities that people have thought up, and I don't see any reason to make an exception for your god. If I were a god I wouldn't give a toss if people believed in me or not, if your deity has rejection issues and low self esteem, it's not my problem.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 03:21:05 PM
Quetzalcoatl. He is a cool god, no? It was for him they ripped out the hearts of those captured in battle, yes..?

...Or maybe it was someone else... They had too many gods, those people. One more bloodthirsty than the other. As though a particularly nasty Asmo created them.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 13, 2011, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
If I were a god I wouldn't give a toss if people believed in me or not, if your deity has rejection issues and low self esteem, it's not my problem.

See?  The invisible sky fairy needs to start off by being less of a dick, or at least convincing it's followers to depict it that way less often.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 03:30:27 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
If I were a god I wouldn't give a toss if people believed in me or not, if your deity has rejection issues and low self esteem, it's not my problem.

See?  The invisible sky fairy needs to start off by being less of a dick, or at least convincing it's followers to depict it that way less often.

...A dickless alpha-eunuch. THAT would actually make a COOL god  ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:37:50 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
If I were a god I wouldn't give a toss if people believed in me or not, if your deity has rejection issues and low self esteem, it's not my problem.
See?  The invisible sky fairy needs to start off by being less of a dick, or at least convincing it's followers to depict it that way less often.
Yeah, any deity that just wants a world of people who sycophantically worship it and base their lives on some misunderstood ancient myths sounds like a pretty pathetic god to me.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Will on December 13, 2011, 07:40:58 PM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
You find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?
I've been asked this a number of times over the years since outing myself as an atheist. My answer usually depends on who's asking. If it's a religious person in an argument, I usually answer that I would condemn god for creating me a skeptic and then judging me for the way he created me. If it's a religious person who's just curious, I usually say that I wouldn't have anything to say, because I was a good person and did my best based on what I knew. If it's an atheist, it's usually a scathing tirade about how truly immoral god is, and that such a god lacks the moral authority to condemn me.

But, truthfully? I'd try to kill god. An entity like that, one with a combination of such power and such pettiness and absolute cruelty cannot be allowed to exist, cannot be allowed to torture people for all of eternity. God isn't worthy of standing in judgment, and would have to be stopped. I'd almost certainly not succeed, but at least I will have done the right thing.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sweetdeath on December 14, 2011, 02:03:16 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:37:50 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 03:25:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
If I were a god I wouldn't give a toss if people believed in me or not, if your deity has rejection issues and low self esteem, it's not my problem.
See?  The invisible sky fairy needs to start off by being less of a dick, or at least convincing it's followers to depict it that way less often.
Yeah, any deity that just wants a world of people who sycophantically worship it and base their lives on some misunderstood ancient myths sounds like a pretty pathetic god to me.

Not to mention, he has no real powers or cool attributes. what a boring, useless god.

People who waste their lives praying and worshipping really need to find why they hace such a void in their life and do something productive
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: MinnesotaMike on December 14, 2011, 06:24:39 AM
Quote from: Will on December 13, 2011, 07:40:58 PM
But, truthfully? I'd try to kill god. An entity like that, one with a combination of such power and such pettiness and absolute cruelty cannot be allowed to exist, cannot be allowed to torture people for all of eternity. God isn't worthy of standing in judgment, and would have to be stopped. I'd almost certainly not succeed, but at least I will have done the right thing.

The Kratos approach is one to be considered... It would be the right thing to remove the current god from power considering his actions.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 14, 2011, 07:23:10 AM
Quote from: Ransom on November 30, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

Hmm.  I hadn't realized the OP had this question in it.  I came in at the middle of the thread.

I wouldn't debate.  I would negotiate.  I would offer to go back and perform whatever service this cosmic dick wanted.  If my deal was accepted, and I was sent back, I would be walking the earth for the first time as a servant of evil.  "Believe without evidence or suffer forever for behavior your body is designed to want to do" is the message of a depraved monster, and I would be its servant, because hey, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, and why the hell not, and WTF, and whatever.


Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 14, 2011, 10:58:59 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 14, 2011, 02:03:16 AM
Not to mention, he has no real powers or cool attributes. what a boring, useless god.
:D yeah, he'd be pretty useless in a game of Top Trumps deities. Unless of course they had scores for 'jealousy' or 'wrath' or 'mythical kill count', he'd score 10s on all of those!
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 14, 2011, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: MinnesotaMike on December 14, 2011, 06:24:39 AM
Quote from: Will on December 13, 2011, 07:40:58 PM
But, truthfully? I'd try to kill god. An entity like that, one with a combination of such power and such pettiness and absolute cruelty cannot be allowed to exist, cannot be allowed to torture people for all of eternity. God isn't worthy of standing in judgment, and would have to be stopped. I'd almost certainly not succeed, but at least I will have done the right thing.

The Kratos approach is one to be considered... It would be the right thing to remove the current god from power considering his actions.

How The God Of War Should have Ended (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfNhNwk9OE)

:D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Pharaoh Cat on December 15, 2011, 02:16:51 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 14, 2011, 02:05:13 PM
How The God Of War Should have Ended (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfNhNwk9OE)

Now that was cool! 8)

I mean, just seeing Thor name you-know-who as his maker was enough to light up my face, but then the ending...
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 03:47:53 AM
Bertrand Russell is credited with having answered, "Not enough evidence," when asked the very question that this thread began with. Many of you have given the same answer. But when I consider the additional comments many of you have made, it seems to me that most of you have already made up your minds to reject or discredit any and all evidence presented for God's existence. Evidence has been offered for centuries (miracles, resurrection of Jesus, findings of Intelligent Design, etc.), but most so-called atheists take none of those seriously and dismiss them outright. It's like, "Okay, here's some evidence." To which people reply, "Nope. I don't believe that." Or "That's not enough." You demand evidence, but you have already decided what you will and will not accept as evidence, which is basically anything that is presented. So it doesn't seem that a lack of evidence is your real hang-up.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 04:01:30 AM
Actually many ancients did know that the earth wasn't flat. In the Bible, Isaiah 40:22 speaks of God "sitting above the circle of the earth." Most intelligent people recognize that there is much we can learn from the ancients of cultures worldwide. We really owe much to their genius.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 15, 2011, 04:04:36 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 03:47:53 AM
You demand evidence, but you have already decided what you will and will not accept as evidence, which is basically anything that is presented. So it doesn't seem that a lack of evidence is your real hang-up.

I disagree.  All the examples of evidence you've presented have been considered and found flawed, often badly flawed.  Everything you've mentioned truly isn't enough -- it's also ragged from overuse.  Don't complain because we get testy at seeing the same old-same old trotted out continuously.
If you have something new, something that's flaws haven't already been pointed out a thousand times, then let's see it.  
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Crow on December 15, 2011, 04:10:48 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 04:01:30 AM
Actually many ancients did know that the earth wasn't flat. In the Bible, Isaiah 40:22 speaks of God "sitting above the circle of the earth." Most intelligent people recognize that there is much we can learn from the ancients of cultures worldwide. We really owe much to their genius.

The earth is a sphere not a circle and people in those times certainly knew the difference. A circle is a two dimensional object a sphere is a three dimensional object, huge difference. From what it seems what you consider to be evidence wouldn't even come close to the majority of the members on this forums classification of evidence, especially not "miracles, resurrection of Jesus, findings of Intelligent Design" especially not intelligent design because a lot of us are well aware of the so called evidence and in every case it can be easily disputed.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: The Magic Pudding on December 15, 2011, 04:41:45 AM
The Christian god doesn't deserve respect, he has omnipotence yet he permits suffering and he acts like a jerk.  He is presented as such a ridiculous being he is barely worth considering except for laughs.

If god wasn't omnipotent, if she wished to create life because she liked it, she welcomed new sentient beings but her ability to create was limited, she might be OK.  If she travels about mixing the goo too start life all over the universe, maybe she pops back now and then to see what new manifestation of life has popped up.  I'd be willing to make her a cup of tea and have a chat, and probably accept the cruelty of tooth and claw was necessary, maybe she doesn't have the time or ability to supervise.  To reject this kind of god would be like rejecting life on Earth as not worth the pain, so unless she catches me on a bad day I may even cook her a scone.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 04:45:38 AM
I think there is a bible verse that said that the earth was a circular disk, I'll search for it later if you don't already know it.

Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 03:47:53 AM
Evidence has been offered for centuries (miracles, resurrection of Jesus, findings of Intelligent Design, etc.)

So far every claim of ID has be refuted by experts, some of which are even practicing Christians. It's a classic god of the gaps argument, which is not evidence and nobody is required to accept it without actual substantiation. It certainly can't be taught as science before that...whether you personally choose to believe that is your problem...

Miracles...what miracles? Any that were not recorded in a book that was written by superstitious ancients? Supernatural miracles? Those would be easier to sway, if proven to break or bend the laws of nature beyond a doubt. As for interpretated miracles, such as religious figures appearing on burnt toast, those are highly debatable. ::)

Mankind has come a long way since then. Though I don't call them 'stupid', since they didn't have access to the wealth of accumulated knowledge that we have now, I certainly know that they knew less about how the universe works than we do.  In fact the bible even misinforms and directly contradicts knowledge that was already available by their time - getting wrong what the Greeks already knew. One example I can think of is natural selection. Darwin was not the first to think of it. The ancient Greeks were (surprise, surprise!). Atoms would be a classic example. ::) Whenever I go to a doctor, if they're giving preference to the bible explantions for diseases over more modern scientifc explanations...well...I wouldn't want to rely on the genius of the ancients.


Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 04:53:45 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 15, 2011, 04:04:36 AM

I disagree.  All the examples of evidence you've presented have been considered and found flawed, often badly flawed.  Everything you've mentioned truly isn't enough -- it's also ragged from overuse.  Don't complain because we get testy at seeing the same old-same old trotted out continuously.
If you have something new, something that's flaws haven't already been pointed out a thousand times, then let's see it.  

Oh, I'm not complaining, and I expected you to get testy. I just don't believe that evidence is the real issue for most of you. I really don't think you will accept any evidence, the raggedly overused or something new. I've seen the supposed refutations of the evidence I've mentioned and have found them flawed, otherwise I would not have mentioned my examples. You see...it's a really monotonous circle, and neither side wins. Atheists ask for evidence. Theists present some. Atheists refute them. Theists refute the Atheists' refutations. I really don't believe that evidence is the issue.

Of course the earth is a sphere, and you are correct. They did know the difference. The ancient Hebrew word for "circle" can also be translated "sphere" and/or used to describe something rounded.

Also, I am well aware of most atheists'/naturalists' classifications for evidence. Evidence is what makes something evident, but it often doesn't work that way because all of us filter evidence through our presuppositions/worldview. But here we are talking about evidence again, which I still honestly doubt to be the real issue.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 04:58:47 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 04:53:45 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 15, 2011, 04:04:36 AM

I disagree.  All the examples of evidence you've presented have been considered and found flawed, often badly flawed.  Everything you've mentioned truly isn't enough -- it's also ragged from overuse.  Don't complain because we get testy at seeing the same old-same old trotted out continuously.
If you have something new, something that's flaws haven't already been pointed out a thousand times, then let's see it. 

Oh, I'm not complaining, and I expected you to get testy. I just don't believe that evidence is the real issue for most of you. I really don't think you will accept any evidence, the raggedly overused or something new. I've seen the supposed refutations of the evidence I've mentioned and have found them flawed, otherwise I would not have mentioned my examples. You see...it's a really monotonous circle, and neither side wins. Atheists ask for evidence. Theists present some. Atheists refute them. Theists refute the Atheists' refutations. I really don't believe that evidence is the issue.

Of course the earth is a sphere, and you are correct. They did know the difference. The ancient Hebrew word for "circle" can also be translated "sphere" and/or used to describe something rounded.

Also, I am well aware of most atheists'/naturalists' classifications for evidence. Evidence is what makes something evident, but it often doesn't work that way because all of us filter evidence through our presuppositions/worldview. But here we are talking about evidence again, which I still honestly doubt to be the real issue.

If you're trying to convice us that you have a good reason to believe, even if you already know that most won't see whatever you claim as 'evidence'...what's the best you've got? Why do you believe?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:02:13 AM
I don't deny natural selection necessarily. I recently heard a professor of mine say, "Natural Selection can explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest." He's right. Scientists can and will speculate to no end about how the earth and the universe came to be, but with a naturalistic and intentionally limited perspective they will never have a solid answer for the origins.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 05:05:21 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:02:13 AM
I don't deny natural selection necessarily. I recently heard a professor of mine say, "Natural Selection can explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest." He's right. Scientists can and will speculate to no end about how the earth and the universe came to be, but with a naturalistic and intentionally limited perspective they will never have a solid answer for the origins.

Yes, but...you do know that evolutionary theory is just about once life got started, right? If you're confusing abiogenesis (how life came from non life), cosmological evolution (how the universe came to be) and chemical evolution (how heavier elements came from lighter elements) with modern biological evolutionary theory you're bound to make a mess of things. Creationists use that tactic often - create a strawman of evolutionary theory, attack it and dismiss the strawman as ridiculous.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 15, 2011, 05:31:04 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 04:53:45 AM
But here we are talking about evidence again, which I still honestly doubt to be the real issue.

And frankly, I think that doubt that evidence is the real issue is a theist dodge around presenting "evidence" that isn't self-referential ("the bible says so") or based on unproven claims ("Jesus did whatever"). 

If there were evidence for the sort of god you're claiming exists, like there's evidence for the laws of physics, then I would accept the existence of this god the same way I accept the laws of physics.  Which is not to say that I would worship your god any more than I worship the laws of physics, but I would accept its existence.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:44:15 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 05:05:21 AM

Yes, but...you do know that evolutionary theory is just about once life got started, right? If you're confusing abiogenesis (how life came from non life), cosmological evolution (how the universe came to be) and chemical evolution (how heavier elements came from lighter elements) with modern biological evolutionary theory you're bound to make a mess of things. Creationists use that tactic often - create a strawman of evolutionary theory, attack it and dismiss the strawman as ridiculous.

Yes, I am well aware of the differences. However, life coming from non-life and these other theories are really only speculation, are they not? Without a real explanation for the origins of the universe, none of your other theories or hypotheses even matter. Something has to be before it can evolve, be it elements or whatever. To quote my prof again, "There either has to be a self-existent designer or a self-existent nature." That's one of the primary reasons why I believe in God. There is no other explanation for how nothing could come from nothing other than by divine fiat. It was supernatural.

Also, and I know I'll take flack for this, but I believe the biblical accounts of the resurrection of Jesus. For example, take the account in 1 Corinthians 15:6 where the Apostle Paul states that the resurrected Jesus appeared to more than five hundred people at once (most of whom were still living at the time of the letter). Who can honestly call five hundred people who saw the exact same thing liars? We believe countless other accounts of historical events. Why not this one? Those who have sought to discredit such accounts do not believe in the veracity of Scripture, so they permit themselves to disbelieve and discredit whatever they choose there. I understand that. They don't believe in God. Why would they trust the Bible? I disagree with them, but I understand that. And this really seems to be why atheists and theists constantly butt heads and can rarely even have a conversation about these issues--our starting points are completely opposite.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 06:32:23 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:44:15 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 05:05:21 AM

Yes, but...you do know that evolutionary theory is just about once life got started, right? If you're confusing abiogenesis (how life came from non life), cosmological evolution (how the universe came to be) and chemical evolution (how heavier elements came from lighter elements) with modern biological evolutionary theory you're bound to make a mess of things. Creationists use that tactic often - create a strawman of evolutionary theory, attack it and dismiss the strawman as ridiculous.

Yes, I am well aware of the differences. However, life coming from non-life and these other theories are really only speculation, are they not? Without a real explanation for the origins of the universe, none of your other theories or hypotheses even matter. Something has to be before it can evolve, be it elements or whatever. To quote my prof again, "There either has to be a self-existent designer or a self-existent nature." That's one of the primary reasons why I believe in God. There is no other explanation for how nothing could come from nothing other than by divine fiat. It was supernatural.

Well, theory in science is a collection of facts. The word that in the colloquial context is eqivalent to hypothesis, and no evolutionary theory is not a hypothesis. It's actually quite solid. It's easy to falsify (show me a crocoduck and there's something wrong or missing in the theory) but has been confirmed by observation and experiment time and again. The pesky thing! ::) Damn theory that won't falsify itself!

As for abiogenesis, there is no theory yet. As far as I know, just hypothesis still undergoing scientific experimentation and facts, but they haven't been joined into anything cohesive enough yet.  

Now you're going into cosmogeny, and there's no reason why the universe couldn't have always existed either. I know the universe exists, but that fact is not enough to take the leap of faith that is saying that if the universe exists, then a god must exist, much less one described in any sacred holy book...

QuoteAlso, and I know I'll take flack for this, but I believe the biblical accounts of the resurrection of Jesus. For example, take the account in 1 Corinthians 15:6 where the Apostle Paul states that the resurrected Jesus appeared to more than five hundred people at once (most of whom were still living at the time of the letter). Who can honestly call five hundred people who saw the exact same thing liars? We believe countless other accounts of historical events. Why not this one? Those who have sought to discredit such accounts do not believe in the veracity of Scripture, so they permit themselves to disbelieve and discredit whatever they choose there. I understand that. They don't believe in God. Why would they trust the Bible? I disagree with them, but I understand that. And this really seems to be why atheists and theists constantly butt heads and can rarely even have a conversation about these issues--our starting points are completely opposite.

I'll leave this to those who are more knowledgeable (plenty on this forum), but...the bible just isn't that convincing for reasons I'm too tired to go into now (it's almost 5 in the morning)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 15, 2011, 06:35:10 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:44:15 AM
Yes, I am well aware of the differences. However, life coming from non-life and these other theories are really only speculation, are they not?

As are the biblical stories of creation.


Quote"There either has to be a self-existent designer or a self-existent nature." That's one of the primary reasons why I believe in God.

So what's your reason for dismissing the possiblity of self-existent nature?

QuoteFor example, take the account in 1 Corinthians 15:6 where the Apostle Paul states that the resurrected Jesus appeared to more than five hundred people at once (most of whom were still living at the time of the letter). Who can honestly call five hundred people who saw the exact same thing liars?

But we aren't calling 500 people liars, we're calling one person a liar -- Paul.  And maybe not even a liar, maybe just passing along a story he heard and believed which nevertheless was not true.  To quote Thomas Paine on miracles: "Which is more likely, that nature should go out of its course, or that a man should lie?"



Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 07:00:49 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 15, 2011, 05:31:04 AM

If there were evidence for the sort of god you're claiming exists, like there's evidence for the laws of physics, then I would accept the existence of this god the same way I accept the laws of physics.  Which is not to say that I would worship your god any more than I worship the laws of physics, but I would accept its existence.

In The Garden of Epicurus (p.176-177), the French atheist Anatole France said that a genuine atheist would not even call it a miracle if he/she witnessed the spontaneous restoration of an amputee's limb. France said that the atheist would still not be convinced and would attribute the event to some undetermined naturalistic conditions. So I do truly doubt what you claim with your request for evidence. Enough evidence for God's existence has been given.

The very last sentence of your post captures the essence of what I see to be the real issue in why so many atheists reject the existence of God. I really don't believe that the issue is a lack of evidence or superior intellect that makes belief in God an impossibility for an atheist or that atheists have such inner fortitude that it makes belief in God unnecessary. What appears to make belief in God an impossibility or unnecessary for many atheists is an aspiration or desire to subject God to his/her own standards, to force him to operate on his/her own terms. But what kind of god would that be? It wouldn't be a god at all. If your standards or my standards were those that God or the world had to live by, wouldn't we be drifting toward exalting ourselves as God? It sounds as though many of you believe that a real god and/or a good god would be a lot more like you than the God found in the Bible. I understand that. The same issue is at the root for all of us, theists and atheists. Human beings are naturally prideful in heart. We think more highly of ourselves that we should, and all too often it blinds us from our real needs and the truth.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 07:03:59 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 06:32:23 AM

...I'm too tired to go into now (it's almost 5 in the morning)


Agreed. :) I have enjoyed to interaction. Good night all!
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tom62 on December 15, 2011, 07:53:42 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 07:00:49 AM
In The Garden of Epicurus (p.176-177), the French atheist Anatole France said that a genuine atheist would not even call it a miracle if he/she witnessed the spontaneous restoration of an amputee's limb. France said that the atheist would still not be convinced and would attribute the event to some undetermined naturalistic conditions. So I do truly doubt what you claim with your request for evidence. Enough evidence for God's existence has been given.
If I'd see a miracle then my first reactions would be "Wow, is this real?" and "How is that done?", because lots of the so called miracles fall in the categories of parlor tricks, optical illusions or plain fraud, etc. When I can't figure that miracle out (like in a case of spontaneous restoration of an amputee's limb) then I would like to know who done it. If that person, creature of whatever doesn't present it/him/herself then I cannot be sure that the miracle comes from the God of the Bible, or Q of Startrek TNG, or Wotan, or Shiva, or IT, or, or....
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 15, 2011, 08:27:56 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 07:00:49 AM
In The Garden of Epicurus (p.176-177), the French atheist Anatole France said that a genuine atheist would not even call it a miracle if he/she witnessed the spontaneous restoration of an amputee's limb. France said that the atheist would still not be convinced and would attribute the event to some undetermined naturalistic conditions. So I do truly doubt what you claim with your request for evidence. Enough evidence for God's existence has been given.

If by evidence of god's existence you mean suppositions based on a desire for a god of some kind to exist, then yes.  Actual evidence, however, no -- unless you'd like to call the laws of physics god, and some people do (Einstein among them), in which case there is plenty of evidence and I believe in that god.  Any other kind of god tho, you've still got a lot of work to do to provide proof.

And you know, I think it's interesting that you and Mr. France should use an example that has never ever come close to happening, so that you can't be disproven in your assumptions.

QuoteThe very last sentence of your post captures the essence of what I see to be the real issue in why so many atheists reject the existence of God. I really don't believe that the issue is a lack of evidence or superior intellect that makes belief in God an impossibility for an atheist or that atheists have such inner fortitude that it makes belief in God unnecessary. What appears to make belief in God an impossibility or unnecessary for many atheists is an aspiration or desire to subject God to his/her own standards, to force him to operate on his/her own terms. But what kind of god would that be? It wouldn't be a god at all. If your standards or my standards were those that God or the world had to live by, wouldn't we be drifting toward exalting ourselves as God? It sounds as though many of you believe that a real god and/or a good god would be a lot more like you than the God found in the Bible. I understand that. The same issue is at the root for all of us, theists and atheists. Human beings are naturally prideful in heart. We think more highly of ourselves that we should, and all too often it blinds us from our real needs and the truth.


What does "superior intellect" or "inner fortitude", or assumptions that we atheists think we have a lot of that, have to do with the laws of physics being easily provable?  I don't accept the existence of a god such as you and most other Xtians propose because I see no evidence for the existence of such a being, any more than I see evidence for the existence of Odin, Kwan Yin, Trickster Coyote, etc.  That's the first problem, proof of existence for your god.

On to the second problem, deciding whether or not to worship this god if it can be proven to exist.  I think what many here have suggested is not that the Xtian god, to be worthy of worship, should be as good as us but better than us.  That doesn't seem to me a great deal to expect of a god, and the god presented by Xtians really falls very far short of that.  Would you seriously consider worshipping a god you considered morally inferior to yourself -- Zeus, for instance?  Just for the sake of argument, if Zeus were proven to exist would you really worship a being that was, let's be honest, that much of an asshole?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 08:31:47 AM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:02:13 AM
I don't deny natural selection necessarily. I recently heard a professor of mine say, "Natural Selection can explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest." He's right. Scientists can and will speculate to no end about how the earth and the universe came to be, but with a naturalistic and intentionally limited perspective they will never have a solid answer for the origins.
He's not right. NS does explain the 'arrival of the fittest' even the language used is ambiguous and abused. And he's not a professor of biology either is he?

At any given point in the evolution of a gene pool there will be a range of physical/behavioural characteristics across the population. Some of these combinations will be best suited to the environment the organism currently occupies. However some of these combinations will suit an adjacent environment better. Consider a mountain range with its base at sea level and its peaks above the snow line. This is a perfect evolutionary environment with continuous variation in habitats based on rainfall and temperature. So plants and animals better suited to wetter/drier and hotter/colder conditions will appear and in due course speciate. Sorry your 'Professor' hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.

The naturalistic view is not limited, except by the requirement for evidence, believing in something without evidence is meaningless wishful thinking.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 08:43:46 AM
Regarding Paul's letter. While Paul may claim to have seen something and sent a letter about it, his testimony is that of a witness, while those who read the letter and repeated it would be considered 'hear say'. They are simply repeating what they have read/heard. Witness testimony is permitted in a court of law while 'hear say' is not. The 500 people are irrelevant, only Paul's testimony would be valid for presentation in a court of law. And then what Paul said he saw would have to be assessed by the jury. Now, if today I said I had seen a dead man get up and walk around, but could provide no physical corroborative evidence, would you believe me? If the answer to that is 'no' then you have no reason to believe Paul's testimony either do you?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 12:57:16 PM
I'm going to use the amputee example because it's a good one.

Actually if I saw an amputee spontaneously regenerate a whole functional limb, it would certainly peak my interest, and I think I'm safe in saying that it would do the same to most other atheists. Assuming it was proven that it was not some sort of trick, then even more. I would first look for naturalistic explanations because, so far in my experience, those are the ones with higher chances of working in explaining what goes on in the natural world. Ruling out all known possible answers, then I would seriously contemplate what could've caused that.

Now, to go from that to there being someone capable of manipulating biology like that, a conscious and intelligent god, isn't easy, especially if there isn't a good evidential link. It has nothing to do with pride, my standards of evidence are much higher for things that I haven't seen any reason for in my experience so far. You would have an equally high standard if i came to you claiming that I had a dragon in my garage (to use Carl Sagan's example, in his book Demon Haunted World). If I told you that you didn't accept my 'evidence' because you're too proud, you would find that very silly, to be sure.

Step two. Supposing I, after much contemplation, reached the conclusion that I believed in a god or gods. Next step would be to determine which god or gods. The one culturally prevalent? There's just as much evidence for one as there is for any other...

As for Paul, Tank practically nailed it. A combination of circular reasoning with the account of someone claiming to have been an eye witness. Yeah...::)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 15, 2011, 02:28:43 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 12:57:16 PM
Actually if I saw an amputee spontaneously regenerate a whole functional limb, it would certainly peak my interest, and I think I'm safe in saying that it would do the same to most other atheists. Assuming it was proven that it was not some sort of trick, then even more. I would first look for naturalistic explanations because, so far in my experience, those are the ones with higher chances of working in explaining what goes on in the natural world.

Isn't that also what the Catholic Church does when someone claims a miracle, before they agree that it is one?  Not sure why atheists should be less skeptical than the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 15, 2011, 02:55:59 PM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 04:01:30 AM
Actually many ancients did know that the earth wasn't flat. In the Bible, Isaiah 40:22 speaks of God "sitting above the circle of the earth." Most intelligent people recognize that there is much we can learn from the ancients of cultures worldwide. We really owe much to their genius.
You obviously don't know the difference between a circle and a sphere. A circle is flat, like a plate, and that is what is referred to in Isaiah. The whole verse reads;

'He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.'

the heavens spread out like a canopy or tent over a flat circular Earth.  

The Greeks were the first people to realise that the earth was spherical, they were far more advanced in their knowledge of the universe than the Jews or Christians. Indeed early Christians rejected the idea of the Earth being spherical because it was considered a pagan Greek idea, therefore something inspired by devils and not 'God'. Plus the Bible stated it was flat, hence we still had medieval Christians believing the earth was flat 1500 years after the Greeks had first realised it was spherical!


Quote from: CAlden
Enough evidence for God's existence has been given.
Really, if your god or any other existed, all they would have to do is appear to us all tomorrow and then there'd be no doubts. Pretty simple really, and far easier than playing some pathetic little game of hide and seek. I get the feeling that if your god exists, he doesn't want us to believe in him! All you've provided as 'evidence' could equally apply to Zeus, Mithras, Asclepius, Krishna or any other number of deities. Do you also believe that they exist?

Quote from: CAlden
Also, and I know I'll take flack for this, but I believe the biblical accounts of the resurrection of Jesus. For example, take the account in 1 Corinthians 15:6 where the Apostle Paul states that the resurrected Jesus appeared to more than five hundred people at once (most of whom were still living at the time of the letter). Who can honestly call five hundred people who saw the exact same thing liars? We believe countless other accounts of historical events.
Maybe you could argue this if we had testimony from 500 different individuals claiming they'd seen the resurrected Christ, but we don't. What we have is a Christian propagandist making something up, and claiming that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus, which is something wholly different. This doesn't appear in the gospels, which suggests it's a fabrication wholly of Paul's making, and Paul was prone to making things up in his letters.

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 04:25:52 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 15, 2011, 02:28:43 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 12:57:16 PM
Actually if I saw an amputee spontaneously regenerate a whole functional limb, it would certainly peak my interest, and I think I'm safe in saying that it would do the same to most other atheists. Assuming it was proven that it was not some sort of trick, then even more. I would first look for naturalistic explanations because, so far in my experience, those are the ones with higher chances of working in explaining what goes on in the natural world.

Isn't that also what the Catholic Church does when someone claims a miracle, before they agree that it is one?  Not sure why atheists should be less skeptical than the Catholic Church.

Yes, and they're wise to do so, I'll give them that ::)
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 04:53:16 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 15, 2011, 02:55:59 PM
Maybe you could argue this if we had testimony from 500 different individuals claiming they'd seen the resurrected Christ, but we don't. What we have is a Christian propagandist making something up, and claiming that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus, which is something wholly different. This doesn't appear in the gospels, which suggests it's a fabrication wholly of Paul's making, and Paul was prone to making things up in his letters.

Actually, since Paul wrote first, it suggests that the gospels just neglected to mention the 500.  Allusions to the 500 might be found in Matthew's account of disciples seeing Jesus in Galilee, but it's unclear.  Paul wrote earlier than the gospels, so he might have mentioned the 500 since most of them were still alive.  This might not have been the case when the gospels were written.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tank on December 15, 2011, 04:54:40 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 04:53:16 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 15, 2011, 02:55:59 PM
Maybe you could argue this if we had testimony from 500 different individuals claiming they'd seen the resurrected Christ, but we don't. What we have is a Christian propagandist making something up, and claiming that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus, which is something wholly different. This doesn't appear in the gospels, which suggests it's a fabrication wholly of Paul's making, and Paul was prone to making things up in his letters.

Actually, since Paul wrote first, it suggests that the gospels just neglected to mention the 500.  Allusions to the 500 might be found in Matthew's account of disciples seeing Jesus in Galilee, but it's unclear.  Paul wrote earlier than the gospels, so he might have mentioned the 500 since most of them were still alive.  This might not have been the case when the gospels were written.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Paul never met JC?
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Crow on December 15, 2011, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: CAlden on December 15, 2011, 05:44:15 AM
Who can honestly call five hundred people who saw the exact same thing liars?

I will. If you came from my neck of the woods you would know of a story involving the band the "Sex Pistols" playing at the Lesser Free Trade Hall. Thousands of people claimed to have seen that first gig in Manchester yet in reality there was only 35 - 40 people present, even if the place was rammed it would have only fit about 200 people and that would be really pushing it. Here is an article about the event: Sex Pistols gig: the truth (http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/05/11/110506_sex_pistols_gig_feature.shtml). My point being people lie about things that they want to be associated with, they hear a story from one person and repeat it word for word and embellish certain details and caries on in that manner, even if they don't claim to have been there they know the story and rumors surrounding it.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Melmoth on December 15, 2011, 08:05:52 PM
Quote from: RansomYou find out the Christian God (Trinity) does exist after choking on a hot dog (or whatever you prefer) and died. What argument would you use to keep God's "wrath" and "anger" from descending on you?

If god exists, then she/he/it already knows my reasons. And given the monumental effort he's put into covering up his own existence, wiping his fingerprints off every asteroid, planet, sun, animal etc. in the universe, carefully constructing the illusion of natural explanations for their being there and so on, chances are he favours the non-believer. So I'm not worried.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 08:17:38 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 15, 2011, 04:54:40 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Paul never met JC?

That is what many assume, but I think that he did, partly based on II Corinthians 5:16 (in which Paul includes himself in the company of those who knew Jesus "according to the flesh" or physically), and partly based on his testimony that he was a Pharisee, which means he probably would have been in Jerusalem on the Passover when Jesus was crucified, and would have known of the encounters between Jesus and the Pharisees.  He was not a disciple of Jesus, but, IMO, knew of him and probably had encountered him physically.  And, of course, he claims to have seen him after the resurrection.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 16, 2011, 12:06:08 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 04:53:16 PM
Actually, since Paul wrote first, it suggests that the gospels just neglected to mention the 500.  Allusions to the 500 might be found in Matthew's account of disciples seeing Jesus in Galilee, but it's unclear.  Paul wrote earlier than the gospels, so he might have mentioned the 500 since most of them were still alive.  This might not have been the case when the gospels were written.
OK so you're telling me that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus but the gospel writers neglected to mention it, despite the fact that it would clearly be very good evidence to support their claims about Jesus. And the 500 people who supposedly saw the resurrected Jesus felt no need to mention it, so it was left to Paul to mention it who wasn't there at the time and never met Jesus before or after his supposed resurrection. It seems far more likely that Paul just made it up.
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on December 16, 2011, 12:15:55 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 16, 2011, 12:06:08 AM

OK so you're telling me that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus but the gospel writers neglected to mention it, despite the fact that it would clearly be very good evidence to support their claims about Jesus. And the 500 people who supposedly saw the resurrected Jesus felt no need to mention it, so it was left to Paul to mention it who wasn't there at the time and never met Jesus before or after his supposed resurrection. It seems far more likely that Paul just made it up.

We don't know if the 500 "mentioned" it or wrote about it.  We are dealing with the documents that have survived.  With the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews from Palestine, it's a wonder anything survived.  Paul's letters survived mainly because they were sent to places outside of Palestine.

And, like I said, it's possible that the 500 are mentioned in Matthew 28 in Galilee, just not by that title.  I have no reason to think that Paul just "made it up."  He claimed that some of them were still alive, so some of the Corinthians could have traveled to Palestine to check his claims.  If Phoebe could travel to Rome from Corinth/Cencrea, she could have traveled to Palestine.

Finally, I don't think these guys were focused on presenting "evidence" like a scientist in a laboratory or even a lawyer in a courtroom.  They were simply proclaiming something that they believed to be true and real. If someone believed, they believed.  Otherwise, they didn't.

Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Tank on December 16, 2011, 08:30:08 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 08:17:38 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 15, 2011, 04:54:40 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Paul never met JC?

That is what many assume, but I think that he did, partly based on II Corinthians 5:16 (in which Paul includes himself in the company of those who knew Jesus "according to the flesh" or physically), and partly based on his testimony that he was a Pharisee, which means he probably would have been in Jerusalem on the Passover when Jesus was crucified, and would have known of the encounters between Jesus and the Pharisees.  He was not a disciple of Jesus, but, IMO, knew of him and probably had encountered him physically.  And, of course, he claims to have seen him after the resurrection.
Interesting. However the underlined does rather dent his credability as a witness  ;D
Title: Re: So you just died and...
Post by: Too Few Lions on December 16, 2011, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 16, 2011, 12:15:55 AM
We don't know if the 500 "mentioned" it or wrote about it.  We are dealing with the documents that have survived.  With the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews from Palestine, it's a wonder anything survived.  Paul's letters survived mainly because they were sent to places outside of Palestine.

And, like I said, it's possible that the 500 are mentioned in Matthew 28 in Galilee, just not by that title.  I have no reason to think that Paul just "made it up."  He claimed that some of them were still alive, so some of the Corinthians could have traveled to Palestine to check his claims.  If Phoebe could travel to Rome from Corinth/Cencrea, she could have traveled to Palestine.

Finally, I don't think these guys were focused on presenting "evidence" like a scientist in a laboratory or even a lawyer in a courtroom.  They were simply proclaiming something that they believed to be true and real. If someone believed, they believed.  Otherwise, they didn't.
But we also don't have any evidence from Jewish or Roman sources for this event, and there's plenty of material from that period. If 500 people had seen a resurrected Jesus I'm sure that would have been pretty big news.

As for 'the scattering of the Jews from Palestine', it's questionable whether or not the forcible eviction of Jews from Palestine ever happened. It wasn't Roman policy to force a people to leave its lands, and we have no evidence of them doing it anywhere else ever. We also have no evidence for this from Jewish or Roman sources, the first people to mention it are the Christians in the fourth century, who made the claim as a piece of anti-Jewish propaganda (God punishing the Jews for rejecting Christ).

Shlomo Sand's written an interesting book on the subject that I'm going to try and read over the next few months, 'The Invention of the Jewish People'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_the_Jewish_People

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/moore291111p.html

This is from the wiki page on the diaspora - 'Experts dismiss the popular notion that the Jews were expelled or exiled from Palestine in the 1st century AD, in particular that this would have been a sudden event. The myth of exile from Palestine receives only minimal treatment in serious Jewish historical scholarship'

And as for Matthew 28, what part of it exactly are you rather imaginatively interpreting as referring to 500 witnesses? From what i can see, 13 people are listed as seeing the resurrected Jesus (two Marys and 11 disciples). By my maths, 13 does not equal 500.

As for the case of it being evidence, it was CAlden not me, who was trying to do that by claiming it was proof of Jesus' resurrection. I agree with you, it's no proof whatsoever, it's just a proclamation of belief