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Newtonian Ethics

Started by Pharaoh Cat, December 11, 2011, 10:45:18 AM

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Pharaoh Cat

I find it odd what conclusions these "ought from is" people tend to draw.  They seem to me to end up inevitably where they started long ago, at the pulpit of the popes, admonishing us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Well, to balance all that, I'll toss my hat into the "ought from is" ring.  I say, let's have Newtonian Ethics.  For every action let there be an equal and opposite reaction.

Help me or give to me and I will help you or give to you in return.  This is Newton for commerce.

Hurt me or take from me unbidden and I will hurt you or take from you in return.  This is Newton for legality.

Do nothing for or against me and I will do nothing for or against you in return.  This is Newton for peace. 

This is Lex talionis in its positive, negative, and neutral aspects, taking the atom as its metaphorical model, with its proton, electron, and neutron.

Be magnanimous toward me in my youth and I will be magnanimous toward you in your old age.  This is Newton for posterity.

Attempt to beat me down and I will attempt to beat you down in return.  This is Newton for dignity.

Be silent when you learn I am different from you and I will be silent when I learn you are different from me.  This is Newton for self-expression.

By what logic do I defend this ethic?  By this: if we live as Newtonians our civilization will progress with the regal clockwork orderliness of the heavenly spheres.


"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 11, 2011, 10:45:18 AM

By what logic do I defend this ethic?  By this: if we live as Newtonians our civilization will progress with the regal clockwork orderliness of the heavenly spheres.

Which includes asteroids randomly crashing into planets.

Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 11, 2011, 10:45:18 AM

By what logic do I defend this ethic?  By this: if we live as Newtonians our civilization will progress with the regal clockwork orderliness of the heavenly spheres.

Which includes asteroids randomly crashing into planets.
And by "randomly", you mean..?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 11, 2011, 10:45:18 AM

By what logic do I defend this ethic?  By this: if we live as Newtonians our civilization will progress with the regal clockwork orderliness of the heavenly spheres.

Which includes asteroids randomly crashing into planets.
And by "randomly", you mean..?

Random:    1) Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See synonyms at chance. 2) Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution. 3)  Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.



Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 02:56:15 PM
Random:    1) Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See synonyms at chance. 2) Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution. 3)  Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

How is an asteroid colliding with a planet random then?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

xSilverPhinx

While Newtonian physics would allow you to predict when and where an asteroid would land (if you were lucky enough to see it coming), the universe isn't as orderly at other levels.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Asmodean

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2011, 03:50:51 PM
While Newtonian physics would allow you to predict when and where an asteroid would land (if you were lucky enough to see it coming), the universe isn't as orderly at other levels.
You could also predict whether or not it would land at all. Some complex calculations involving the speed of all involved objects, gravity, trajectories and probably a whole mess of other factors, and the prediction is born  :D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Pharaoh Cat

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2011, 03:50:51 PM
While Newtonian physics would allow you to predict when and where an asteroid would land (if you were lucky enough to see it coming), the universe isn't as orderly at other levels.

The more we learn about the universe, the more orderly we discover it to be.  Chaos theory itself is really a theory of super-complex radical order.  Unpredictability doesn't arise from disorder but rather from limited knowledge.  The uncertainty principle is a dictum as to what we can and can't know.  Our ability to predict the future increases with our knowledge of the present.

In any case, it isn't predictability I seek and espouse, but balance.  Nature at every level has a tendency to settle into equilibrium at some particular point of balance.  This is true of the orbiting planets, the competing and cooperating species in the forest, the competing and cooperating systems in your body, and the electrons and protons in the atom.



"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Melmoth

Interesting. I can see how it would work for an individual but you seem to be advocate it for everyone. Suppose we were all Newtonians:

Quote from: Pharaoh CatHelp me or give to me and I will help you or give to you in return.  This is Newton for commerce.

but I will not help you, as you have not helped me before. So we both do nothing.

Quote from: Pharaoh CatHurt me or take from me unbidden and I will hurt you or take from you in return.  This is Newton for legality.

but I will not hurt you, as you have not hurt me before. So we both do nothing.

Quote from: Pharaoh CatDo nothing for or against me and I will do nothing for or against you in return.  This is Newton for peace. 

This seems to be the inevitable conclusion. Your system seems to be all about response as opposed to initiative; what could we respond to, as a bunch of mirrors simply reflecting one another?

I don't see how civilization would "progress with the regal clockwork orderliness of the heavenly spheres." It sounds more like stagnation.
"That life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one." - Emil Cioran.

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 02:58:41 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 02:56:15 PM
Random:    1) Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See synonyms at chance. 2) Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution. 3)  Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

How is an asteroid colliding with a planet random then?

No specific pattern, purpose or objective - no one is directing the asteroid to collide with the planet - and the collision has no purpose or design.  It's described by probability distribution - it will happen at a particular rate, but at this point it is impossible to predict. An asteroid may be on a collision course, with a planet in 200 years, and something may occur to take it off course.  Why do you think it is not random?  Do you have a different concept of random?

Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 12, 2011, 10:04:21 PM
No specific pattern, purpose or objective
No human constructs does not really equal randomness, does it..? As far as the patterns go, well, that one is debateable.

Quote- no one is directing the asteroid to collide with the planet -
Gravity is not a someone, but it IS a something. As is momentum trajectory and all the rest of the cool physics stuff.

QuoteAn asteroid may be on a collision course, with a planet in 200 years, and something may occur to take it off course.  Why do you think it is not random?  Do you have a different concept of random?
Something like... Another object diverting it with its gravity..? That wouldn't really be a random act either. For instance, if an asteroid on the collision course with mars smashes into Jupiter in stead, then the issue really is that someone screwed up when accounting for all the stuff between, or on the way to being between, it and Mars.

I'm not arguing for an asteroid having a masterplan, just that the randomness of its eventual point of collision doesn't seem quite random enough.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Pharaoh Cat

Quote from: Melmoth on December 12, 2011, 08:41:46 PM
Interesting. I can see how it would work for an individual but you seem to be advocate it for everyone. Suppose we were all Newtonians:

Quote from: Pharaoh CatHelp me or give to me and I will help you or give to you in return.  This is Newton for commerce.

but I will not help you, as you have not helped me before. So we both do nothing.

You're forgetting commerce.  Sellers offer to help or give (some product) to me and if I accept, I automatically agree to help or give (money) to them in return.  Happens every day - heck, every minute, every second...

"The Logic Elf rewards anyone who thinks logically."  (Jill)

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 10:23:28 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 12, 2011, 10:04:21 PM
No specific pattern, purpose or objective
No human constructs does not really equal randomness, does it..? As far as the patterns go, well, that one is debateable.

Quote- no one is directing the asteroid to collide with the planet -
Gravity is not a someone, but it IS a something. As is momentum trajectory and all the rest of the cool physics stuff.

QuoteAn asteroid may be on a collision course, with a planet in 200 years, and something may occur to take it off course.  Why do you think it is not random?  Do you have a different concept of random?
Something like... Another object diverting it with its gravity..? That wouldn't really be a random act either. For instance, if an asteroid on the collision course with mars smashes into Jupiter in stead, then the issue really is that someone screwed up when accounting for all the stuff between, or on the way to being between, it and Mars.

I'm not arguing for an asteroid having a masterplan, just that the randomness of its eventual point of collision doesn't seem quite random enough.

So, are you a determinist?  What would be an example of something random? 

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 12, 2011, 02:12:14 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2011, 03:50:51 PM
While Newtonian physics would allow you to predict when and where an asteroid would land (if you were lucky enough to see it coming), the universe isn't as orderly at other levels.

The more we learn about the universe, the more orderly we discover it to be.  Chaos theory itself is really a theory of super-complex radical order.  Unpredictability doesn't arise from disorder but rather from limited knowledge.  The uncertainty principle is a dictum as to what we can and can't know.  Our ability to predict the future increases with our knowledge of the present.

I stand corrected.







I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 12, 2011, 10:50:50 PM
So, are you a determinist?  What would be an example of something random? 
A toss of a balanced coin, for instance.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.