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Islam and Atheism

Started by Fatih, March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

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Dave

Also "Islamic science" has its origins in India and pre-Islamic Persia/Mesopotamia. Just for a change they did not destroy this knowledge as being haram because it was not revealed to their "prophet". They even advanced it somewhat and, admittedly, introduced it to Europe..

There was once (before 9/11 etc) a display promoting Islam in our local shopping mall. It made rificulous claims for its fintribution to science, msthemstics, the arts and even language. It claimed things the evidence shows were known in Greece long, long before Muhammed. Muslims are guilty of incredible pride and outright lies in what they teach their children.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Madbunny

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.
(apologies if this has already been broached and answered in the previous 10 pages.)


I'm curious about how one can follow a book with obvious contradictory information, while simultaneously claiming that it has none AND that they are not lying.  It does seem to be a bit of a conundrum, does it not?
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Dave

Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.
(apologies if this has already been broached and answered in the previous 10 pages.)


I'm curious about how one can follow a book with obvious contradictory information, while simultaneously claiming that it has none AND that they are not lying.  It does seem to be a bit of a conundrum, does it not?

Thus is the nature of blind belief and brainwashing. Not having actually read the koran I don''t normally comment on this - but since there are parallels to the bible here . . .

Welcome, Madbunny, to our forum. Please tell us something of yourself in an intro thread.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Tank

Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.
(apologies if this has already been broached and answered in the previous 10 pages.)


I'm curious about how one can follow a book with obvious contradictory information, while simultaneously claiming that it has none AND that they are not lying.  It does seem to be a bit of a conundrum, does it not?
It is a conundrum of the first order. But the human mind is an imperfect evolved thing so It shouldn't be surprising what it is capable of!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Davin

So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Madbunny

Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.

Even if Arabic had no symbol for vowel sounds... so what?
元音
Other languages don't have vowels in them either, or even letters in some cases.  It does not magically make the religions spawned under those writing systems more accurate.

It turns out though, that since we're talking about a human language and not a fictional one like Cthulhuan, or Klingon that Arabic has conventions for dealing with vowel sounds.
حَرَكَات
It does not magically make religions spawned under writing systems that contain vowel systems more accurate.


Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.



Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Tank

Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.

Even if Arabic had no symbol for vowel sounds... so what?
元音
Other languages don't have vowels in them either, or even letters in some cases.  It does not magically make the religions spawned under those writing systems more accurate.

It turns out though, that since we're talking about a human language and not a fictional one like Cthulhuan, or Klingon that Arabic has conventions for dealing with vowel sounds.
حَرَكَات
It does not magically make religions spawned under writing systems that contain vowel systems more accurate.


Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.

You arrived a week late damn it!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Davin

Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.

Even if Arabic had no symbol for vowel sounds... so what?
元音
Other languages don't have vowels in them either, or even letters in some cases.  It does not magically make the religions spawned under those writing systems more accurate.

It turns out though, that since we're talking about a human language and not a fictional one like Cthulhuan, or Klingon that Arabic has conventions for dealing with vowel sounds.
حَرَكَات
It does not magically make religions spawned under writing systems that contain vowel systems more accurate.


Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Dave

Do you think Fatih has given up on us godless ones?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Tank

Quote from: Dave on March 26, 2018, 04:31:10 PM
Do you think Fatih has given up on us godless ones?
Well he said he has. But I suspect that won't last :D
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Madbunny

Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.
We can take the simplest thing, a rainbow for example which is presumably bible god's message to humanity to never do the big flood again.
Yet at the same time, cafeteria Christians in the US have decided that the rainbow, due to its coopting by the LGBT community is a thing to be disdained.

So which is it, tangible evidence of gods great fuck up and by definition a miracle every time, or an abomination combination of colors?  As an atheist, the answer is incredibly easy to arrive at (it's neither)1


The problem is that people see what they want to see, they interpret things through their own filters.

When we look at a Red Panda, what species do you think this belongs to?
(note: hotlink)


Knowing the answer, does that confirm or deny the existence of creation?
The Norse figured they had actual empirical evidence of a rainbow bridge, turns out... not so much.

Islam suffers from the same fallacies as all other religions, and like (almost) all other religions it also contains scripture warning people to neither doubt nor question it.







1 it is possibly a cosmic reminder that we're all better off listening to Pink Floyd albums than debating religion..
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Davin

Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.[...]
I'm just going to cut it right here, I read the whole thing, and my comment relates to the whole post:

I attach the qualifier "reliable" to "evidence" to get away from the murky kind of BS like, "even testimony is considered 'evidence'" because while technically it is, it's been demonstrated to be unreliable. I try to choose my words very carefully, I did not mean "actual" when I said "reliable."

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to try go into teaching mode instead of staying in discussion mode.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tank

Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.[...]
I'm just going to cut it right here, I read the whole thing, and my comment relates to the whole post:

I attach the qualifier "reliable" to "evidence" to get away from the murky kind of BS like, "even testimony is considered 'evidence'" because while technically it is, it's been demonstrated to be unreliable. I try to choose my words very carefully, I did not mean "actual" when I said "reliable."

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to try go into teaching mode instead of staying in discussion mode.

Davin, MadBunny has made 5 posts. Could it be he's just trying to join in and make a contribution and start a conversation?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
..
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. ...

Then why not simply ask?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Davin

Quote from: Tank on March 26, 2018, 09:17:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.[...]
I'm just going to cut it right here, I read the whole thing, and my comment relates to the whole post:

I attach the qualifier "reliable" to "evidence" to get away from the murky kind of BS like, "even testimony is considered 'evidence'" because while technically it is, it's been demonstrated to be unreliable. I try to choose my words very carefully, I did not mean "actual" when I said "reliable."

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to try go into teaching mode instead of staying in discussion mode.

Davin, MadBunny has made 5 posts. Could it be he's just trying to join in and make a contribution and start a conversation?
Quote from: Tank on March 26, 2018, 09:19:29 PM
Then why not simply ask?
There are a lot of possibilities, that's why I made that post. I tried to clarify my position while describing my points of confusion.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.