Something in another thread prompted me to ask a wider audience about this. I wondered if any of you are in relationships with theists (however inactive). And if you have kids, how do you share their spiritual education.
I'll give you my starter for 10...
My wife is a church goer (C of E) and was adamant that she wanted our 2 kids christened. That was fine with me as I know it can help Xtians in later life if they choose to take that path (I'm all for free will as long as it doesn't affect me). I, however, played no part in the ceremony (much to the chargrin of the vicar). The kids are now in an excellent C of E school, courtesy of the church (cheers for that!).
It is slightly awkward knowing that the kids are routinely brainwashed (we all know the drill), and they sometimes come home with Q's about the bible or other religious matters. I enjoy engaging them on this level as it gives me the chance to offer a more balanced view. I do my best be be genuinely impartial, with statements like '...some people think that...', or 'it could also be seen this way:...', or 'maybe that was just a story to illustrate a point'. I am normally able to field any queries without directly contradicting the school. I have never had to answer the killer question though, "What do you believe, Daddy?"...yet. But this is not far off. The older I (or they??) get the harder it seems for me to hold my tongue. Maybe I'll start introducing more searching responses and request rationales for any voiced conclusions. I'm pretty confident that with some gentle encouragement they will draw their own sensible conclusions without me jarring God out from under them at a later date.
Do you think I'm being fair to myself / my wife / my kids?
I wonder how you've dealt with (or are dealing with) this....
I honestly think it's sad to raise kids religiously. Hopefully they will grow out of the invisible friend stage. I've noted from many other members here, that interacting with non religion school kids (AKA the real world) helps open people up to the truth.
I think you should just be honest with them and treat god and the bible like greek, or norse, or any other mythology.
I agree with death. But then again, I don't have kids, so what do I know...
Well, one thing, actually: according to today's paper, researchers found that people don't get happier from having kids. Must be all the ruined carpets followed by drugs, unprotected sex and expensive habits... ???
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 10, 2011, 05:54:37 PM
Do you think I'm being fair to myself / my wife / my kids?
I wonder how you've dealt with (or are dealing with) this....
Ye I think jarring god out of them later sounds OK.
Death and Asmo, though I love them both conditionaly... they're giving parental advice?
Haha, I hate children so much. Though I am surprisingly okay at parenting advice/opinions.
I would not be happy if my children wereto be sent to a religious based school. I see it as brainwashing. My kids ought to be exposed to a variety of ideas, they ought to be able to consiously choose.
Christenning/Baptism can happen later in life. It does not need to be forced onto a child or infant. Let them decide later in life. There is no hurry.
If they are being taught Christian views then I think the same amount of effort should be put into teaching them Atheist, Muslim, Buddism, Greek, Norse, Jewish, Maori, Aborigoni etc. Send them to a Muslim summer camp, or a Hindi Camp. Let them see other beliefs, let them make informed decisions as to their beliefs.
Read them the God Delusion book.
At the moment they seem to be getting taught only Christian. Children are such trusting, impressionable things. You are brainwashing them and taking choice away from them.
I understand you are in quite a dilema, the family dynamic can be a difficult and challenging aspect of life. Your partner's desire to send the kids to Christian school and baptism is not for the kid's benefit. It is a selfish desire of your partner's.
To love, means to be supportive, understanding and accepting, not for force one's views onto another.
As a parent it is your responsibility to support your children, not to brainwash them, but to provide them opportunity, to give them life tools so that they can eventually be independant and make their own informed decisions.
Thanks for your respective advices... for all it's experiential baselessness.
It should indeed be a choice. But I want them to know what they are choosing between, and have the opportunity to make a decision on their own terms - not mine. I have no problem if people want to 'believe'. Ignorance is bliss for some. As long as it doesn't impinge my own journey.
I think when Father Christmas loses his magic is the time to dispel the god delusion... Unless I'm asked the direct question beforehand, at which point I shall pull the plug.
Kids aren't mentally developed enough to know where they stand on religion, unfortunately they can't escape the global reach of the church. If the kids must go to church, it's best to give them knowledge of other religions as well, so that they can begin building the reasoning necessary to make an informed decision regarding which faith (or hopefully lack thereof) they will ultimately follow.
Quote from: fyv0h on September 12, 2011, 12:16:46 AM
Kids aren't mentally developed enough to know where they stand on religion, unfortunately they can't escape the global reach of the church. If the kids must go to church, it's best to give them knowledge of other religions as well, so that they can begin building the reasoning necessary to make an informed decision regarding which faith (or hopefully lack thereof) they will ultimately follow.
No one forces a child(ren) to go to church except the parents. :(
A child is born without religious supetstition. It's the parents that forcefully instill it. I find that very sad.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 12, 2011, 12:24:11 AM
Quote from: fyv0h on September 12, 2011, 12:16:46 AM
Kids aren't mentally developed enough to know where they stand on religion, unfortunately they can't escape the global reach of the church. If the kids must go to church, it's best to give them knowledge of other religions as well, so that they can begin building the reasoning necessary to make an informed decision regarding which faith (or hopefully lack thereof) they will ultimately follow.
No one forces a child(ren) to go to church except the parents. :(
A child is born without religious supetstition. It's the parents that forcefully instill it. I find that very sad.
Interesting, isn't it? An atheist baby garners "oohs" and "ahhs." People are smitten by the adorable adorableness of an adorable baby that knows no God. But if we walk in with the same religious mindset and slightly more developed vocabulary, we're filthy heathens.
As a parent of a very small child, I just wouldn't be able to do it. I was raised Catholic, and I was worried that not having my son Baptized was going to cause some controversy within the family (especially since we were married in a Catholic church), but it didn't. He's over a year old now, and no one's even mentioned it yet, thankfully.
I just wouldn't be able to send him to any kind of institutionalized religious "teaching" environment. Both my husband and I went through that when we were kids, and I just wouldn't be able to do it to my son. You have to consider that the church doesn't think that their role is to teach your child their "options", it's to teach them the "truth".
I'm glad that you are open-minded and seem very reasonable, but when it comes to small children, they really don't get a say in what they believe. They learn what they are explicitly told. They are most likely going to be told, in very clear terms, that the christian viewpoint is the correct viewpoint. If you are comfortable with that, then I say let it be, if you aren't, I'd say you should have an honest conversation with your partner about what you both want for your children.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 14, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
As a parent of a very small child, I just wouldn't be able to do it. I was raised Catholic, and I was worried that not having my son Baptized was going to cause some controversy within the family (especially since we were married in a Catholic church), but it didn't. He's over a year old now, and no one's even mentioned it yet, thankfully.
I just wouldn't be able to send him to any kind of institutionalized religious "teaching" environment. Both my husband and I went through that when we were kids, and I just wouldn't be able to do it to my son. You have to consider that the church doesn't think that their role is to teach your child their "options", it's to teach them the "truth".
I'm glad that you are open-minded and seem very reasonable, but when it comes to small children, they really don't get a say in what they believe. They learn what they are explicitly told. They are most likely going to be told, in very clear terms, that the christian viewpoint is the correct viewpoint. If you are comfortable with that, then I say let it be, if you aren't, I'd say you should have an honest conversation with your partner about what you both want for your children.
It sounds like a lot of you guys had a pretty rotten time in your religious education. It's a story I've heard many times. Mine is not so fraught with misery. In fact my memories of the gentle religiousness of my (state) junior school are happy ones. And it appears that my children's school follows a similar pattern. Although it is known as a C of E school, it is a state school partially funded by the church. Only 50% of places are given to church goers, the rest are regular state applicants from many and varied religions. They certainly don't ram it down your throat. Actually, they have a decent handle on religions of the world with some surprisingly enlightened R.E - much broader than mine ever was.
I'm happy to let this be as I value the happy time I had learning Christianity and would like my children to benefit from it too. I am monitoring though to keep it 'real'. Like I've said before, once Father Christmas and the tooth fairy loose their magic its time to pull the plug on Jesus too.
How exactly does christianity benefit children? o_o
I have to imagine such a thing is incredibly complicated and at times difficult. On the one hand, you clearly respect your SO's beliefs because you're with him/her, but at the same time you have your own beliefs that are directly contradictory to his/hers and I'm sure you're compelled to help your children remain objective enough to make what we all agree is the healthier decision when they're ready.
One thing I think that would be helpful is, when they're old enough, getting them online and allowing them to experience the really cool way a lot of the internet has become a crucible for the truth, burning away fallacies and lies, leaving only the truth. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum were really helped by the no-bullshit kind of interactions on the internet, myself included. As time goes on, and my generation and younger generations that grew up with the internet become adults and take over society, religion will have a smaller and smaller place in our lives. I'm thankful for that.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 14, 2011, 10:27:59 PM
How exactly does christianity benefit children? o_o
In my opinion, it doesn't. All the church did to me when I was young was to make me resent my parents for making me go every week.
I don't get it either, because all I get from christianity is ignorant and intolerance. Making people have a black/white view of the world.
I would never want a child to be forced into a religious enviroment.
Quote from: Will on September 14, 2011, 10:58:13 PM
I have to imagine such a thing is incredibly complicated and at times difficult. On the one hand, you clearly respect your SO's beliefs because you're with him/her, but at the same time you have your own beliefs that are directly contradictory to his/hers and I'm sure you're compelled to help your children remain objective enough to make what we all agree is the healthier decision when they're ready.
One thing I think that would be helpful is, when they're old enough, getting them online and allowing them to experience the really cool way a lot of the internet has become a crucible for the truth, burning away fallacies and lies, leaving only the truth. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum were really helped by the no-bullshit kind of interactions on the internet, myself included. As time goes on, and my generation and younger generations that grew up with the internet become adults and take over society, religion will have a smaller and smaller place in our lives. I'm thankful for that.
That's true, but the internet is also a hothouse for religious (and Atheist) extremism.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 14, 2011, 10:27:59 PM
How exactly does christianity benefit children? o_o
In the same way that The Tooth fairy does, or Father Christmas, or... Spiderman.
For all its pernicious nastiness, there are some excellent moral messages, particularly expounded by Jesus (and we have no reason to doubt his existence as a mortal human - just somewhat embiggened and misquoted). For his demeanour and love of people and peace and morality one must recognise his values.
And I know that sounds like religious apology, but many of the moral messages are sound.
So, I will let my children soak up the same good stories that I enjoyed as a child, knowing that with some objective guidance in the future they will be able to make their own sane judgements, about the mumbo-jumbo, just as I did.
While ideologically we'd all like to see religion become obsolete let's not stoop to the depths of trying to gag free speech. I'm going to take all that is valuable in religion and discard the rest. The fact is we have to exist alongside the religious majority.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 14, 2011, 11:46:25 PM
And I know that sounds like religious apology, but many of the moral messages are sound.
It just takes a little work cherry-picking. The fundamentalists foam at the mouth over that, but they do it too -- I sometimes think they do more cherry-picking any anyone. And really, most things in life need to be cherry-picked because this is not a one-size-fits-all world.
Call me cynical, but religion doesn't instill morality.
:-\
Also, spiderman doesnt have a house of worship or preachers.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 15, 2011, 06:11:49 AM
Also, spiderman doesnt have a house of worship or preachers.
Oh, I wouldn't be so sure... There are, after all, whackos out there who worship Darth Vader or Yoda or... Well something out of
those movies.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 15, 2011, 06:11:49 AM
Call me cynical, but religion doesn't instill morality.
I absolutely agree, 100%, without question.
But that's not to say that there aren't valid morals to be found in the bible or Jesus' teachings. I can cherry-pick them as well (or as badly) as any Christian.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 07:34:42 AM
I absolutely agree, 100%, without question.
But that's not to say that there aren't valid morals to be found in the bible or Jesus' teachings. I can cherry-pick them as well (or as badly) as any Christian.
Not worried about the potential backfire..?
I mean, if a kid knows that some value of his is derived from the bible and starts, at some point, cherry-picking at the rest... No knowing what may be found useful then.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 15, 2011, 08:08:00 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 07:34:42 AM
I absolutely agree, 100%, without question.
But that's not to say that there aren't valid morals to be found in the bible or Jesus' teachings. I can cherry-pick them as well (or as badly) as any Christian.
Not worried about the potential backfire..?
I mean, if a kid knows that some value of his is derived from the bible and starts, at some point, cherry-picking at the rest... No knowing what may be found useful then.
Are you talking about them actually deciding to become a Christian? Well, they will always get a balanced view from home (me), and I know where I'd put my money when it comes to deciding who's telling fibs.
And anyway, I have no fear of them deciding to be religious. It's not my chosen path for them, but they are free to make their own choices - given all the FACTS. I will not dictate what they can and can't believe. That's entering the territory of the pious zealot and that is to be despised.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 08:47:32 AM
Are you talking about them actually deciding to become a Christian?
Not necessarilly, but the same book as says "Love thy neighbour" also says you are to murder his ass for being gay.
QuoteAnd anyway, I have no fear of them deciding to be religious. It's not my chosen path for them, but they are free to make their own choices - given all the FACTS. I will not dictate what they can and can't believe. That's entering the territory of the pious zealot and that is to be despised.
It's not about believing in fairy tales, but about situational adaptation of morals and values available as "true and pure" from the source that helped define the morals and values already held.
Quote from: Asmodean on September 15, 2011, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 08:47:32 AM
Are you talking about them actually deciding to become a Christian?
Not necessarilly, but the same book as says "Love thy neighbour" also says you are to murder his ass for being gay.
QuoteAnd anyway, I have no fear of them deciding to be religious. It's not my chosen path for them, but they are free to make their own choices - given all the FACTS. I will not dictate what they can and can't believe. That's entering the territory of the pious zealot and that is to be despised.
It's not about believing in fairy tales, but about situational adaptation of morals and values available as "true and pure" from the source that helped define the morals and values already held.
I'm confident enough in my own abilities as a parent not to worry about moral corruption. I consider morals as coming from within - it is a human condition. Any morals espoused as religious only tap-in to ones own inate moral code, unless the zealot in question is not sufficiently free-thinking to consider the truth of a 'learned' moral. I see no threat to my children from the religion to which I allow exposure. Zero exposure is not heathy as this leads to ignorance. We have to exist among the religious, so learning something of their world is useful as a lesson in social interaction.
I admire your tolerance Scissorlegs. Not that I intend to have any kids, but I couldn't christen or baptise my children if I did have any. Babies can't decide what god to believe in (if any), I'm still a little offended my parents christened me! I was asked to be godfather to my half-brother 15 odd years ago (my stepmum's an evangelical Catholic ::)), and stupidly said yes. I then had to stand at the front of a church in front of everybody and had the priest utter all kinds of rubbish about bringing him up as a good Catholic and making sure he rejects 'Satan and all his minions' (I mean really in the 21st century!) I just stood there stony faced , blatantly refusing to say anything or repeat any of it, I don't think my stepmum was too pleased!
I think once you're christened some in the church consider you a Christian for life. I can remember having to go to hospital as a teenager and the nurse asking me my religion. I answered 'atheist' and she looked at me in a nonplused way and asked if I'd been christened. I answered 'yes' and she replied 'well then you're a Christian' and ticked that box. To be fair if that happened to me these days I'd report the nurse and try and get her disciplined.
I went to a relaxed C of E primary school too, but still remember plenty of RE lessons that were basically Bible lessons, and prayers, Bible readings and hymns every morning. It was definitely indoctrination.
I'm sure if you temper any such indoctrination they receive at school or church (eek!) with a healthy dose of scepticism your kids will turn out fine. It's pretty easy to counter any argument Christians can put forward to promote their religion / god. Even the positive morality of loving one's neighbour or turning the other cheek, you can just tell your kids that Plato taught the same thing 400 years earlier and Jesus just copied Plato.
How will you feel if they grow into fine upstanding young Christians? Personally I'd be gutted if it was my kids, despite the fact that I'd want them to make their own mind up and be happy. I'd also think how could they be so stupid, are they really mine? ;) And how will your partner feel if your children end up atheists or agnostics? Will she think you corrupted them away from the true path of their Lord and saviour. These things are often a bigger deal for believers than non-believers, after all it's your childrens' eternal souls that are at stake!
Pretty much what Mr. Lions said. Instead of teaching them crap fairy tales from the nible, why don't you introduce them to real philosiphers that actually existed?
You can cherry pick the bible all you want, but 99.9% of it id still an intolerant, sexist, rascist book. I liked Hitler's art, but that doesnt mean I take painting lessions from him. Besides... Well, look at that, he still existed at least.
You might as well put on much emphasis on sirens and fire demons living in volcanoes.
And I understand that zero exposure to religion CAN breed intolerance, but it still should all be viewed as false and myths.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 15, 2011, 12:13:42 PM
You can cherry pick the bible all you want, but 99.9% of it id still an intolerant, sexist, rascist book.
99.9%... really?!
My god, I'm sounding like a religious nut here, but let's get Jesus into context:
Yes, Old testament is full of sadistic, overbearing bullshit.
Yes, Christians are zealous bullies
Yes Christianity, when forced down the throat is misguided, pernicious, mind control.
But I have to defend the concept of Jesus as a man - spectacularly similar in outlook to Gandhi who describes the hypocrissy of all religions. Peaceful, thoughtful, generous, kind. They were both good men. And I am happy for my children to learn about good men - from Jesus, through Darwin, Gandhi, Carl Sagan, to Dawkins. (and I repeat - we have no reason to think that Jesus was not a real mortal man, just like the Prohet Mohammed).
And to address Lions comments: Why should I care if my children were Christened? No skin off their noses - in fact a benefit if they choose to enter the church by choice. And why should I care if my wifes fellow parishioners consider my children Christian? Bite me! And, for the record, my wife is open-minded enough to let our children decide for themselves - and respect their decision, just as she does mine and I hers.
Honestly, you're all frothing at the mouth and sounding every bit like the closed minded Christians you detest. Raging-against-the-machine isn't going to kill it. Let's work on liberal fairness before trying to topple the regime.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 15, 2011, 12:13:42 PM
Pretty much what Mr. Lions said. Instead of teaching them crap fairy tales from the nible, why don't you introduce them to real philosiphers that actually existed?
I'd do that too, if I had kids, but I'd be cherry-picking them as well (only in what I supported, not in what I taught about it -- I don't believe white-washing has any value).
QuoteYou can cherry pick the bible all you want, but 99.9% of it id still an intolerant, sexist, rascist book.
I have to agree that 99.9% is way excessive. For that part of it that is intolerant, sexist, rascist -- well, that's going to be true of any book from its time and place and obviously it needs to be taught in context. But then, everything does.
QuoteAnd I understand that zero exposure to religion CAN breed intolerance, but it still should all be viewed as false and myths.
Yes and no. A lot of it is on the flying monkey level, but on the other hand I don't consider feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, or at least trying to love your enemies part of a false philosophy. That's were the cherry-picking comes in.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 14, 2011, 11:46:25 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 14, 2011, 10:27:59 PM
How exactly does christianity benefit children? o_o
In the same way that The Tooth fairy does, or Father Christmas, or... Spiderman.
For all its pernicious nastiness, there are some excellent moral messages, particularly expounded by Jesus (and we have no reason to doubt his existence as a mortal human - just somewhat embiggened and misquoted). For his demeanour and love of people and peace and morality one must recognise his values.
And I know that sounds like religious apology, but many of the moral messages are sound.
So, I will let my children soak up the same good stories that I enjoyed as a child, knowing that with some objective guidance in the future they will be able to make their own sane judgements, about the mumbo-jumbo, just as I did.
While ideologically we'd all like to see religion become obsolete let's not stoop to the depths of trying to gag free speech. I'm going to take all that is valuable in religion and discard the rest. The fact is we have to exist alongside the religious majority.
Well, I won't be raising my children to believe that Santa or the tooth fairy are real either, but to each their own, I guess. I also didn't have a horrible time growing up in the Catholic church, I found it to be a positive experience when I was a child, actually. I just don't see the value in putting a child in a situation where the majority of people are going to be telling him or her that something is true when I believe it to be patently false.
Like I said, it's good that you're tolerant, in my day to day life, I am too, but surely you can't be surprised that, in an Atheist forum, the majority of us don't think it's a good idea.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
But I have to defend the concept of Jesus as a man - spectacularly similar in outlook to Gandhi who describes the hypocrissy of all religions. Peaceful, thoughtful, generous, kind. They were both good men. And I am happy for my children to learn about good men - from Jesus, through Darwin, Gandhi, Carl Sagan, to Dawkins. (and I repeat - we have no reason to think that Jesus was not a real mortal man, just like the Prohet Mohammed).
Personally I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Jesus wasn't a real mortal man, and very little to suggest he was. To my knowledge the gospels are the only evidence for his existence and the earliest known surviving fragments are written in Greek (not Aramaic or Hebrew) and date to the second century. To put it bluntly, the gospels are neither historical documents nor eyewitness acoounts, you don't have things like people walking on water or rising from the dead in factual historical accounts! There are also mythological precedence and explanations to pretty much every element of the life of Jesus as told in the gospels, and once you take away the mythological elements I don't think there's anything left to see of a supposed real historical man.
Obviously it's personal choice whether or not we choose to believe Jesus was a mortal man (just like Moses or Odysseus or Hercules), and whether or not he was a mortal man or a mythical figure makes no difference to the validity of any teachings ascribed to him. Teachings aren't any more valuable just because they came from a real person, I've learned a lot from watching South Park :D
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
And to address Lions comments: Why should I care if my children were Christened? No skin off their noses - in fact a benefit if they choose to enter the church by choice. And why should I care if my wifes fellow parishioners consider my children Christian? Bite me! And, for the record, my wife is open-minded enough to let our children decide for themselves - and respect their decision, just as she does mine and I hers.
First thing I said was I admire your tolerance. I was just saying that I personally wouldn't want my children baptised or christened, but that's just me. I'm not suggesting you should feel the same way.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
Honestly, you're all frothing at the mouth and sounding every bit like the closed minded Christians you detest. Raging-against-the-machine isn't going to kill it. Let's work on liberal fairness before trying to topple the regime.
Like I said I admire your tolerance, good on you. I'm sure your kids will turn out good well rounded human beings. That's far more important than whether or not they believe in a god.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 11:19:15 AMZero exposure is not heathy as this leads to ignorance. We have to exist among the religious, so learning something of their world is useful as a lesson in social interaction.
Exposure to religion is one thing... Letting it take part in shaping a young person's moral bases is another.
You can derive the good moral codes from other sources - even sources some of the biblical morals come from, like the basic social contract.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 15, 2011, 04:12:44 PM
Personally I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Jesus wasn't a real mortal man, and very little to suggest he was
+1,000,000
Just another in a long line of borrow stories.
QuotePersonally I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Jesus wasn't a real mortal man, and very little to suggest he was. To my knowledge the gospels are the only evidence for his existence and the earliest known surviving fragments are written in Greek (not Aramaic or Hebrew) and date to the second century. To put it bluntly, the gospels are neither historical documents nor eyewitness acoounts, you don't have things like people walking on water or rising from the dead in factual historical accounts! There are also mythological precedence and explanations to pretty much every element of the life of Jesus as told in the gospels, and once you take away the mythological elements I don't think there's anything left to see of a supposed real historical man.
There is NO evidence to suggest he wasn't a real, mortal man (let's not get into proving a negative here).
Why should you question this premise? I realistically assume he was a charismatic and respected man, who lead by example, just like Gandhi. The bible has systematically 'embellished' his story and turned him into a superhuman. This mode of storytelling has been used by Hollywood for decades in 'true life' propagandic dramatisations. I choose to read between the lines (at my own unapologetic discretion) and accept the credible and discard the nonsense... And FOR ME this leaves a wise and noble (mortal) man.
QuoteObviously it's personal choice whether or not we choose to believe Jesus was a mortal man (just like Moses or Odysseus or Hercules), and whether or not he was a mortal man or a mythical figure makes no difference to the validity of any teachings ascribed to him. Teachings aren't any more valuable just because they came from a real person, I've learned a lot from watching South Park :D
Even if he were completely mythical, the ethics with which he is attributed are mirrored by revered, modern-day ethical heroes. So, in effect it doesnt matter either way - wisdom is wisdom... and
someone came up with it 2000 years ago. (Love South Park by the way).
QuoteLike I said I admire your tolerance, good on you. I'm sure your kids will turn out good well rounded human beings. That's far more important than whether or not they believe in a god.
Agreed, TooFewLions
QuoteYes and no. A lot of it is on the flying monkey level, but on the other hand I don't consider feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, or at least trying to love your enemies part of a false philosophy. That's were the cherry-picking comes in.
Thank you Cats. Exactly.
Quote
Like I said, it's good that you're tolerant, in my day to day life, I am too, but surely you can't be surprised that, in an Atheist forum, the majority of us don't think it's a good idea.
DeterminedJuliet, not surprised at all. I'm enjoying the debate.
Quote
Exposure to religion is one thing... Letting it take part in shaping a young person's moral bases is another.
You can derive the good moral codes from other sources - even sources some of the biblical morals come from, like the basic social contract.
Asmo, I will NEVER allow religion to shape my childrens moral base. That has already been done through the joint hard work of my wife and I. I have talked about inate human morals to which the church subscribes and to which they have added. I can discard their additions.
I have no desire to labour my tolerant point any further (unless you have any specific questions). I've made my point. I am a strong Atheist that is not scared of, or particularly affected by, the religious majority (admittedly fairly benign locally). I feel sorry for you guys that are subject to religious bigotry, particularly in the US. I'm sure I would feel the same in the same situation.
I do want to repeat my earlier comment:
Raging-against-the-machine isn't going to kill it. Let's work on liberal fairness before trying to topple the regime.
...Oh, and get religion out of politics...
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 06:00:22 PM
Asmo, I will NEVER allow religion to shape my childrens moral base. That has already been done through the joint hard work of my wife and I. I have talked about inate human morals to which the church subscribes and to which they have added. I can discard their additions.
...
...Oh, and get religion out of politics...
We are on the same page then.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 06:00:22 PM
There is NO evidence to suggest he wasn't a real, mortal man (let's not get into proving a negative here).
Why should you question this premise? I realistically assume he was a charismatic and respected man, who lead by example, just like Gandhi. The bible has systematically 'embellished' his story and turned him into a superhuman. This mode of storytelling has been used by Hollywood for decades in 'true life' propagandic dramatisations. I choose to read between the lines (at my own unapologetic discretion) and accept the credible and discard the nonsense... And FOR ME this leaves a wise and noble (mortal) man.
I don't want to derail this into a debate on whether or not there was a historical Jesus, as that's down to personal belief at the end of the day, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest Jesus was a mythological figure, and the gospels are just a passion play. Hence we are told about his miraculous birth then absolutely nothing for 30 odd years up until the main event, that all happens in a matter of weeks. Jesus pretty much quotes Plato verbatim in a lot of his teachings and parables, and the earliest known gospels are all in Greek, but a real life Jesus probably wouldn't have spoken Greek! Plus when Jesus quoted the Old Testament in the gospels, he invariably quotes the Greek version and not the Hebrew one. Add to this the similarities in the gospel story of Jesus to other Greek figures such as Socrates, Prometheus, Odysseus, Heracles, Dionysos and I personally think that you can build up a fairly strong case for Jesus being a mythological figure and a direct result of the Hellenising of Judaism in the first century CE. Many Jews of the diaspora of the period read Greek philosophy and combined Greek ideas with Judaism. Philo of Alexandria (20 BCE -50 CE) is a good example, he tried to interpret and reevaluate the Old Testament through Platonic and Pythagorean philosophy.
There are strong mythological elements to things you might see as historical elements of the Jesus story, such as the crucifixion. There's a tradition going back until at least the second century (which is as old as any Christian tradition) that Jesus was hung / crucified at exactly the same location that Adam was buried, and his blood literally washed away the sins from Adam's skeleton. All four gospels state that Jesus was crucified at Golgotha (the place of the skull), the skull in question being Adam's skull. For me that makes perfect sense mythologically, as one of the central concepts of Christianity is that Jesus' suffering redeemed the fall of Adam and Eve.
Plus, if you look at all of the gospels that Constantine decided to omit from the official Bible when it was first codified in the fourth century (and there are plenty of them), most of them portray Jesus as a mythological figure often very different from the philosopher in the four gospels, and more like the Jesus in Revelation. Personally I see things the reverse way that you see things, I think Jesus started off as a mythological saviour figure like Mithras or Dionysos or Orpheus, and the Church later created the myth of him having being a historical mortal man so they could claim their saviour (and god) were real and all the other similar but horribly heathen gods and saviours were false. But as you say, it doesn't affect the teachings ascribed to him one way or the other, good philosophy is good philosophy.
Doh!
I'll get my coat...
;D
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 15, 2011, 08:09:45 PM
Doh!
I'll get my coat...
;D
hehe, me too. Sorry if i just ranted!
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Asmodean-the-childless-and-therefor-as-not-expert-as-can-be approves. 8)
Yay, go Grinches!
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
I agree, Willow. There is no reason to ever lie to a child. Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.
Just tell them the truth. It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 16, 2011, 05:27:32 AM
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
I agree, Willow. There is no reason to ever lie to a child. Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.
Just tell them the truth. It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.
Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!
It must be huge consolation to your children that the reason Santa didn't come was that Mummy doesn't believe in him.
So, do you not allow fiction into your house either. No fairy tales. No imaginary play. No magic tricks. No Jokes. This is ALL 'lying' and a fun and natural part of learning... And sometimes (hideous though it may sound) just about having fun.
You are of course entitled to your militant anti-funism if you so choose, but I can tell this is a winless argument so I won't labour the point.
...But really...??!!
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 16, 2011, 05:27:32 AM
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
I agree, Willow. There is no reason to ever lie to a child. Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.
Just tell them the truth. It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.
Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!
It must be huge consolation to your children that the reason Santa didn't come was that Mummy doesn't believe in him.
So, do you not allow fiction into your house either. No fairy tales. No imaginary play. No magic tricks. No Jokes. This is ALL 'lying' and a fun and natural part of learning... And sometimes (hideous though it may sound) just about having fun.
You are of course entitled to your militant anti-funism if you so choose, but I can tell this is a winless argument so I won't labour the point.
...But really...??!!
We do have Christmas presents and stories. They even make up their own stories sometimes, what with knowing that you can.
We happily go goblin hunting in the certainty that they are make believe and enjoy trying to prove to one another they exist by way of mysterious orienteering signs or piles of tree clippings, clearly goblin nests.
We can still enjoy the stories without trying to make our children truely believe.
"Santa won't bring you any presents if you don't do as I say now!" That's anti fun.
Quote from: Willow on September 16, 2011, 12:31:52 PM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 16, 2011, 05:27:32 AM
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
I agree, Willow. There is no reason to ever lie to a child. Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.
Just tell them the truth. It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.
Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!
It must be huge consolation to your children that the reason Santa didn't come was that Mummy doesn't believe in him.
So, do you not allow fiction into your house either. No fairy tales. No imaginary play. No magic tricks. No Jokes. This is ALL 'lying' and a fun and natural part of learning... And sometimes (hideous though it may sound) just about having fun.
You are of course entitled to your militant anti-funism if you so choose, but I can tell this is a winless argument so I won't labour the point.
...But really...??!!
We do have Christmas presents and stories. They even make up their own stories sometimes, what with knowing that you can.
We happily go goblin hunting in the certainty that they are make believe and enjoy trying to prove to one another they exist by way of mysterious orienteering signs or piles of tree clippings, clearly goblin nests.
We can still enjoy the stories without trying to make our children truely believe.
"Santa won't bring you any presents if you don't do as I say now!" That's anti fun.
One doesn't HAVE to usurp Santas good will for ones own advantage.
What's wrong with making them truly believe? I guess you could argue that at some point the horrible truth will be discovered amid disappointment at being misled by parents. OK, I'll buy that if I must - it's a risk. But do you suffix all of your stories/fantasies/magic with "That's not real, you know"? Surely that's taking away one of the magical wonders of being a child. Do you not have happy memories of Santa/tooth fairy/magic/goblin hunting yourself? And do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.
We have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 02:31:18 PMDo you not have happy memories of Santa/tooth fairy/magic/goblin hunting yourself?
Me, I have no such memories at all.
QuoteAnd do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.
I have a mistrust of my parents because of
everything I've been intentionally misled about.
QuoteWe have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.
Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.
QuoteI have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.
That's not really Santas fault is it?!
QuoteWe have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.
Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.
[/quote]
Agreed. But we can enjoy fantastic stories too.
Quote from: AsmodeanQuoteAnd do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.
I have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.
I do not think that mistrust in parents is a bad thing, I think before kids move out on their own they should already be questioning all authority.
Quote from: AsmodeanQuoteWe have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.
Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.
I completely agree. Also children can have and use their imagination about things that aren't real, while remaining grounded in reality.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 16, 2011, 05:27:32 AM
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
I agree, Willow. There is no reason to ever lie to a child. Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.
Just tell them the truth. It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.
Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!
I was never told, nor did I ever believe that Santa was real and my childhood was not miserable. I could still watch Santa Christmas shows and be entertained and imagine if the guy were real. This idea that not believing in Santa equals a miserable childhood, just seems too ridiculous to me.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 02:31:18 PMWhat's wrong with making them truly believe?
Because children are supposed to be learning from their guardians about the world and getting children to believe in something that has no evidence for it, is against that goal. If you want rational children who value evidence and logic over make believe and superstition, then why make them believe in Santa? A child has an amazing imagination, not tricking them to beleive in Santa will not ruin it. However, teaching a child that it's OK to believe in false things from an early age for the "magic" of it, I think is putting the wrong idea into their heads durring a critical time of mental development.
Quote from: Davin on September 16, 2011, 04:18:13 PM
Quote from: AsmodeanQuoteAnd do you now have a mistrust of your parents as a result of being misled about these things? I don't. I love and appreciate the efforts that were made to make life magical for me.
I have a mistrust of my parents because of everything I've been intentionally misled about.
I do not think that mistrust in parents is a bad thing, I think before kids move out on their own they should already be questioning all authority.
Quote from: AsmodeanQuoteWe have a whole adult lifetime to be cynical about the greyness of reality. Let's not steal the colour from our children too.
Oh, there are a lot of cool and "colorful" things in reality. Astronomy, for instance. Imagine, every one of those tiny specklets of light in the night sky that is not an aircraft is a star. A giant ball of gas lightyears away. And some of those balls of gas rise above the horizons of planets so far away, we didn't even bother to give them cool names. If you want to stretch your imagination muscles, why not try to picture in your head a sunrise on an alien world..? To me that is, and always was, far cooler than an old man in a red suit.
I completely agree. Also children can have and use their imagination about things that aren't real, while remaining grounded in reality.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 16, 2011, 05:27:32 AM
Quote from: Willow on September 15, 2011, 10:47:18 PM
I would not allow my children into an environment where serious adults presented traditional myths as though they were meaningful truths.
I do dispel Santa and the Tooth Fairy when it arises. I have told my 5 year old that when he does start to loose his teeth, then we can do the "Tooth Fairy" thing, just that he will know it's really Mummy swapping his tooth for a coin while he sleeps.
Surely the neutral approach to teaching children what they should or should not believe is to question everything, and to learn that sometimes grown ups do present made up or traditional stories as if they were true.
Willow.
I agree, Willow. There is no reason to ever lie to a child. Tooth fairy or worst; the obnoxious stark tale.
Just tell them the truth. It's NOT going to ruin their childhood.
Blimey, how spectacularly miserable!
I was never told, nor did I ever believe that Santa was real and my childhood was not miserable. I could still watch Santa Christmas shows and be entertained and imagine if the guy were real. This idea that not believing in Santa equals a miserable childhood, just seems too ridiculous to me.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 02:31:18 PMWhat's wrong with making them truly believe?
Because children are supposed to be learning from their guardians about the world and getting children to believe in something that has no evidence for it, is against that goal. If you want rational children who value evidence and logic over make believe and superstition, then why make them believe in Santa? A child has an amazing imagination, not tricking them to beleive in Santa will not ruin it. However, teaching a child that it's OK to believe in false things from an early age for the "magic" of it, I think is putting the wrong idea into their heads durring a critical time of mental development.
It's the fact that some of the contributors here actively reject Santa from their homes that I think is miserable. I've no doubt that children above a certain age don't believe at all but still enjoy maintaining the fantasy. This goes to show how fun it is in any case.
Do you have children Davin?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 04:56:25 PMIt's the fact that some of the contributors here actively reject Santa from their homes that I think is miserable.
All I've seen is that they don't want the kids to believe in Santa, not that they're banning Santa from their home.
Quote from: ScissorlegsI've no doubt that children above a certain age don't believe at all but still enjoy maintaining the fantasy. This goes to show how fun it is in any case.
So promoting the belief in something that isn't real is unecessary because the same beneficial effect can be acheived without the deception.
Quote from: ScissorlegsDo you have children Davin?
I do not.
Wow.. I'm seriously glad you're aren't my parent, scissorlegs.
I have the biggest imagination still at 25. I read sci fi and fantasy novels, and play tons of videogames. I still decorated a xmas tree as a kid with my mum and dad, and knowing my gifts came from them meant a lot.
The assumption that a child without santa or tooth fairy LIES told as truth being "miserable" is truly laughable.
My mum read me fairy tales all the time.
A child is suppose to look up to their parents. How hypocritical is it to teach a child that lying is bad whilst lying right to their face. *chortle*
gotta confess I don't see any problem with goblins, santa or the tooth fairy. Although I don't like the commercialism of xmas and that parents often feel forced to spend lots of money buying presents for their children that they can't always afford. I'm not gonna pin that wholly on santa though, the poor guy had a hard enough time after 9/11 (he was distraught, haven't you seen the pictures?)
I would worry sometimes we may be guilty of throwing the make-believe babies out with the bathwater. I think it's quite funny that kids can have this whole other world filled with make-believe characters. Children work out that Santa and the tooth-fairy are just their parents soon enough, noone's been hurt. At the end of the day noone's ever flown planes into buildings because the they found out that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, these seem like pretty harmless myths to me.
Davin,
QuoteSo promoting the belief in something that isn't real is unecessary because the same beneficial effect can be acheived without the deception.
There is no substitute for the wonder of magic and fairies and fantasies. You take that away and you've destroyed everything that is special about being a child.
QuoteAll I've seen is that they don't want the kids to believe in Santa, not that they're banning Santa from their home.
And the difference is...?
Quote from: ScissorlegsDo you have children Davin?
QuoteI do not.
Thanks for your insightful comments.
Scissorlegs, no one is saying to take away fairy tales and throw them in a concrete room. Just don't lie to a kid about fairy tales and say they are truth.
I had probs in grade school cuz my parents didnt lie to me, but all the other kids were SERIOUS BUSINESS that santa was REAL and one could tell them he was not. e__e
Once again, I live my parents and respect them way more because they didn't need to make up lies.
I have an issue that most parents feel an obligation to lie to their kids and see it as harmless fun.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 05:49:05 PM
Davin,
QuoteSo promoting the belief in something that isn't real is unecessary because the same beneficial effect can be acheived without the deception.
There is no substitute for the wonder of magic and fairies and fantasies. You take that away and you've destroyed everything that is special about being a child.
Who is talking about taking that away? I'm just advocating that one doesn't need to promote that some of those things are real. A child can have the imagination, fun and make believe without also deceiving them.
Quote from: ScissorlegsQuoteAll I've seen is that they don't want the kids to believe in Santa, not that they're banning Santa from their home.
And the difference is...?
Like the example I gave: I never believed in Santa, but I still watched and read fictional tales of the guy. That is different than people not allowing anything Santa in their home.
Quote from: ScissorlegsQuote from: ScissorlegsDo you have children Davin?
QuoteI do not.
Thanks for your insightful comments.
You're welcome. I do hope that this isn't the thinly veiled appeal to authority that it seems to be.
As an aside, I quite like the idea that you could let your child believe that Santa and the tooth fairy exist while expressly telling them that God and Jesus do not! That would so wind up any Christian teachers at school. I find it amusing that a lot of Christians seem to not like Santa these days, as they feel children nowadays associate xmas more with this *made up* character than with the *not so made up honest* Jesus.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 16, 2011, 05:36:00 PMI would worry sometimes we may be guilty of throwing the make-believe babies out with the bathwater. I think it's quite funny that kids can have this whole other world filled with make-believe characters. Children work out that Santa and the tooth-fairy are just their parents soon enough, noone's been hurt. At the end of the day noone's ever flown planes into buildings because the they found out that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, these seem like pretty harmless myths to me.
When my family was much less fortunate (we were broke), some people came by dressed as Santa and his wife and gave my family some presents. What I took from that wasn't that some guy with an endless supply of toys happened upon my family and dropped some them off because I had been good, I took it that two people really wanted to make some poor people's families have it a little better. I think it was better to be exposed at an early age to the act of compassion than to believe that just by being good, it entitles me to gifts.
I really like that response, Davin! Teach children compassion and kindness, not "be good and mommy will buy you an xbox"
That's lazy parents. Molding a child at a young age is crutial to them growing into generous, tolerant adult.
Has anyone actually raised children by being completely honest about Santa / Tooth Fairy / Princesses at Disneyland? How did that work out for you/them?
And who of you have raised children by maintaining the fantasy of the same? How did that work out for you/them?
My son isn't old enough to say how he will "turn out", but I do think it'll be important to distinguish "pretend" from "real" once he gets old enough to understand the difference. I have no problem with him talking about Santa or the tooth fairy or anything else, but I'll make sure the he knows that these things are "pretend". I don't think that would necessarily ruin it for a child, there were plenty of things that I knew were pretend when I was little that I enjoyed immensely. :)
Scissorlegs, do you have a bias against people without children? Is my point invalid because I choose not to reproduce? :(
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 16, 2011, 04:04:16 PM
That's not really Santas fault is it?!
No, my parents' fault for being dishonest. I didn't need to be lied to about things like narcotics, human reproduction and death in the family. And no, I did not need to be lied to about Santa either, but I did find that one out very early - to early to develop a lasting grudge.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 17, 2011, 01:19:07 AM
Scissorlegs, do you have a bias against people without children? Is my point invalid because I choose not to reproduce? :(
Not at all, Sweet. But I am mostly interested in peoples experience with children, hence the name of the thread.
I do think that when it comes to the crunch peoples attitudes change. And having read a reasonable amount about child development (and obviously experiencing it myself) I conclude that the fantasies I choose to play out are harmless. I also believe that the whole package of OUR parenting is such that a questioning mind is being developed. I am confident that as they grow older they will learn for themselves that these fantasies aren't real. My 7 year old already takes it with a pinch of salt, and we exchange a knowing smile. They will appreciate that the fantasies were maintained in the interests of fun. This is exactly what my parents did (and millions of others worldwide) and I love them for it.
One can only do ones best as a parent and I'm doing exactly that. We'll just have to agree to differ.
I'd be interested to hear your views on this if you ever have children of your own. I sincerely believe that your attitudes will soften. That is why I wanted the hear from actual parents, to illustrate this point.
My two daughters both went to Catholic schools, the youngest is in her second last year.
My wife was adamant she wanted them to, she'd experienced the catholic and public system and in her work she interacted with kids from both systems. She felt the Catholic school turned out nicer and better educated kids.
I'd say the Catholic system served them well, the church is probably more restrained in Australia than the US, hell is only implied apparently. If children have an atheist father who explains his stance they aren't likely to blindly accept indoctrination.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 17, 2011, 01:19:07 AM
Scissorlegs, do you have a bias against people without children? Is my point invalid because I choose not to reproduce? :(
Nothing anybody ever tells you or you read or experience as an aunt or uncle actually prepares one for being a parent. So it is quite reasonable for a person who has children of their own to have a different perspective/experience of children. It is also reasonable the the person who actually has children to know more about having children then one who does not. That's not bias, that's experience.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 10, 2011, 08:33:39 PM
Death and Asmo, though I love them both conditionaly... they're giving parental advice?
Though I'm usually in full support of what this guy says I think he's way out of touch here.
Those that have been parented should be heard when parenting is discussed.
If their experience leads them to prefer rats or cats to children doubly so.
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 17, 2011, 03:24:45 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 10, 2011, 08:33:39 PM
Death and Asmo, though I love them both conditionaly... they're giving parental advice?
Though I'm usually in full support of what this guy says I think he's way out of touch here.
Those that have been parented should be heard when parenting is discussed.
If their experience leads them to prefer rats or cats to children doubly so.
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
And in English this time...
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 17, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 17, 2011, 03:24:45 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 10, 2011, 08:33:39 PM
Death and Asmo, though I love them both conditionaly... they're giving parental advice?
Though I'm usually in full support of what this guy says I think he's way out of touch here.
Those that have been parented should be heard when parenting is discussed.
If their experience leads them to prefer rats or cats to children doubly so.
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
And in English this time...
Some days back I made a whimsical post about Sweet Death and Asmo giving parental advice.
Everyone is someone's child and so qualified to offer parental advice.
My posts aren't necessarily understandable to all but I'm happy to explain, sometimes.
Quote
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
But this sentence isn't even coherent English. Spell-check issues?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 17, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
Quote
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
But this sentence isn't even coherent English. Spell-check issues?
TMP translation "Can we have a better smile smiley please."
Scissorlegs, part of the fun of the posts of TMP is working out what he's saying and it takes a bit of practice.
Need smiley to convey what I said there.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 17, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
Quote
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
But this sentence isn't even coherent English. Spell-check issues?
Some kind of smiling good will smiley
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi647.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu198%2FRamblingSyd%2FFSMlaugh.gif&hash=883c2cb00626f643a7775c6ad6264aae7d1f4643)
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 17, 2011, 06:48:32 PM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 17, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
Quote
Some kind of smiling good will smiley more appealing than those on offer should be imagined here.
But this sentence isn't even coherent English. Spell-check issues?
Some kind of smiling good will smiley
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi647.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu198%2FRamblingSyd%2FFSMlaugh.gif&hash=883c2cb00626f643a7775c6ad6264aae7d1f4643)
Slightly awkward-looking smiley with a smiling-with-a-knowing-nod and a smirk of approval smiley.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 17, 2011, 06:59:28 PM
Slightly awkward-looking smiley with a smiling-with-a-knowing-nod and a smirk of approval smiley.
See..? You's getting the hang of it! ;D
This thread seems to be loosing focus.
The Pope's a bastard.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 17, 2011, 07:30:21 PM
This thread seems to be loosing focus.
The Pope's a bastard.
Not much to debate there.
How about: Religion in films.
Let's talk Star Wars' Force. Or Muad Dib in Dune. A bit too religious for ya (in the context of kids)?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 17, 2011, 08:21:20 PM
Let's talk Star Wars' Force. Or Muad Dib in Dune. A bit too religious for ya (in the context of kids)?
The Force in SW-universe can be demonstrated. The dark side vs the other side though... Don't like painting things black and white.
The concept of Muad Dib, I dislike, but don't really know why... Just seems shallow in the areas it isn't supposed to be shallow somehow
Fantasy is ok as long as the "magic" bits are properly justified within the fantasy universe they occur in.
Dune... well the idea that the human brain is capable of holding the memories of all of your descendants is pushing credibility I suppose. It seemed popular a few years back to assume most of the brain wasn't being used 'cause we didn't know what it was doing.
I like the treatment of religion in Dune, it is a tool to be used to control a population spread across the galaxy or galaxies.
But back to the context of kids, if a child isn't totally focused on their homework I advocate confronting them with a life threatening practical demonstration. If they don't perform to the utmost of their ability give them a scar so they remember the cost of failure.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 18, 2011, 02:58:31 AM
Dune... well the idea that the human brain is capable of holding the memories of all of your descendants is pushing credibility I suppose. It seemed popular a few years back to assume most of the brain wasn't being used 'cause we didn't know what it was doing.
I like the treatment of religion in Dune, it is a tool to be used to control a population spread across the galaxy or galaxies.
But back to the context of kids, if a child isn't totally focused on their homework I advocate confronting them with a life threatening practical demonstration. If they don't perform to the utmost of their ability give them a scar so they remember the cost of failure.
"If you'd have performed one whit below your ability, I'd have given a good scar to remind you". Love you Jean-Luc Picard!
I also love their treatment of religion (this is my all-time fave flick). That there is no compulsion to use their 'religious' abilities for
good is an interesting slant, whereby godly powers are held by mortal, fallible men. In fact, their 'messiah' was the result of careful genetically guided breeding. But the final stage of the breeding programme was usurped by an unsanctioned coupling. The result was a slightly imperfect specimen, prone to rebellious, but noble machinations. So there is no god in their universe, just a messianic man-with-a-plan. Comparrisons with Jesus cannot be avoided and are used to the storytellers advantage. A powerful story well told.
For the kids though, (ages 4 and 7) I am keen for them to see it. Whilst there is not necessarily any grand lessons to be learned (apart from it's Atheist slant) it's just a great spectacle. It's a long film though and has some violence they needn't see.
Contrary to what Asmo says, I consider Star Wars to be commendable in it's grey areas of morality. Particularly in the treatment of Anakins passage through life and his temptation (and giving-in) to use his powers for selfish and malignant purposes. And even as the 'evil' Darth Vader he is torn by the love of his son, and regretful for his corruption.
The realistic portrayal of 'greyness of morality' is a particularly British trait in filmmaking (StarWars and Dune). You don't find much of it in Hollywood. I guess this reflects the precepts of the respective societies at large.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 18, 2011, 02:58:31 AM
Dune... well the idea that the human brain is capable of holding the memories of all of your descendants is pushing credibility I suppose. It seemed popular a few years back to assume most of the brain wasn't being used 'cause we didn't know what it was doing.
I like the treatment of religion in Dune, it is a tool to be used to control a population spread across the galaxy or galaxies.
But back to the context of kids, if a child isn't totally focused on their homework I advocate confronting them with a life threatening practical demonstration. If they don't perform to the utmost of their ability give them a scar so they remember the cost of failure.
Decendents? Wouldn't that be ancestors?
Quote from: Tank on September 18, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 18, 2011, 02:58:31 AM
Dune... well the idea that the human brain is capable of holding the memories of all of your descendants is pushing credibility I suppose. It seemed popular a few years back to assume most of the brain wasn't being used 'cause we didn't know what it was doing.
I like the treatment of religion in Dune, it is a tool to be used to control a population spread across the galaxy or galaxies.
But back to the context of kids, if a child isn't totally focused on their homework I advocate confronting them with a life threatening practical demonstration. If they don't perform to the utmost of their ability give them a scar so they remember the cost of failure.
Decendents? Wouldn't that be ancestors?
Maybe there's a non-linear time aspect in this film. ;)
Quote from: Tank on September 18, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Decendents? Wouldn't that be ancestors?
I think in this instance you are correct, but in sci fi it can get confusing.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 18, 2011, 08:28:42 AM
The realistic portrayal of 'greyness of morality' is a particularly British trait in filmmaking (StarWars and Dune). You don't find much of it in Hollywood. I guess this reflects the precepts of the respective societies at large.
I'm not sure what part of these movies aren't American, they may film them elsewhere to save a buck.
QuoteAt least three different versions of Dune have been released worldwide. In some cuts Lynch's name is replaced in the credits with the name Alan Smithee, a pseudonym formerly used by directors who wished not to be associated with a film for which they would normally be credited.
I know of two versions, one is longer and does not have the narration by Princess Irulan at the beginning, it was stretched so it could be shown on TV over two nights. This version is inferior. Not using Princess Irulan, what were they thinking?
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 18, 2011, 09:08:02 AM
Quote from: Tank on September 18, 2011, 08:35:16 AM
Decendents? Wouldn't that be ancestors?
I think in this instance you are correct, but in sci fi it can get confusing.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 18, 2011, 08:28:42 AM
The realistic portrayal of 'greyness of morality' is a particularly British trait in filmmaking (StarWars and Dune). You don't find much of it in Hollywood. I guess this reflects the precepts of the respective societies at large.
I'm not sure what part of these movies aren't American, they may film them elsewhere to save a buck.
QuoteAt least three different versions of Dune have been released worldwide. In some cuts Lynch's name is replaced in the credits with the name Alan Smithee, a pseudonym formerly used by directors who wished not to be associated with a film for which they would normally be credited.
I know of two versions, one is longer and does not have the narration by Princess Irulan at the beginning, it was stretched so it could be shown on TV over two nights. This version is inferior. Not using Princess Irulan, what were they thinking?
Are you talking of the three part mini series made subsequently? This was utter pants (that's underwear for the US readers). Why they thought they could remake it better on a budget I don't know! It made me cross to have the 6 hours of my life it stole from me.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 18, 2011, 06:53:33 PM
Are you talking of the three part mini series made subsequently? This was utter pants (that's underwear for the US readers). Why they thought they could remake it better on a budget I don't know! It made me cross to have the 6 hours of my life it stole from me.
No there are different cuts of the David Lynch film, the extended one is annoying.
I didn't mind the European low budget version, it did cover more than the first book.
I'm not familiar with Dune, but the "force" in Star Wars doesn't really bother me, primarily because there is actual evidence in that world that the force exists!
I have mentioned in another thread that all of the "God" talk in Battlestar Galactica kind of bothered me. Not in a "I'd never let my kid watch this" kind of way, but after the 11 millionth time that 6 says "God has a plan for you, God has a plan for all of us!" it kind of gets old. ::)
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 18, 2011, 08:28:42 AM
Contrary to what Asmo says, I consider Star Wars to be commendable in it's grey areas of morality.
Thing is, Jedi are automatically considered the good guys. If they turn to the "dark side" (what's so dark about it..?), they are evil. Turn back, and I suppose they become good with history.
Why are there no (openly) power-hungry assholes following the jedi way? Just for the power using the force gives you? Why are there no all-decent-and-nice-acting Sith? Why is there no inbetween-side between the Jedi and Sith ways, for like ordinary folks..?
Quote from: Asmodean on September 19, 2011, 01:59:44 PM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 18, 2011, 08:28:42 AM
Contrary to what Asmo says, I consider Star Wars to be commendable in it's grey areas of morality.
Thing is, Jedi are automatically considered the good guys. If they turn to the "dark side" (what's so dark about it..?), they are evil. Turn back, and I suppose they become good with history.
They make things easy by choosing proper attire. Only a bilge rate would shoot lightning from their hands when not wearing all black.
Quote from: AsmodeanWhy are there no (openly) power-hungry assholes following the jedi way? Just for the power using the force gives you? Why are there no all-decent-and-nice-acting Sith? Why is there no inbetween-side between the Jedi and Sith ways, for like ordinary folks..?
The force be binary, the inbetween is the transition from good to bad (bad to good is when one is near death and smartly so).
Quote from: Davin on September 19, 2011, 05:19:53 PM
They make things easy by choosing proper attire. Only a bilge rate would shoot lightning from their hands when not wearing all black.
Well, I'd do the lightning thing while wearing all yellow. 8)
On that note, a minigun is far more potent a weapon than lightning. Wonder why they didn't use those against the plasma sword (or whatever that lightsaber-foolishness is supposed to pretend to be) users... :-\
i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!
I think it is time that the vicious circle of religious indoctrination gets broken. Informing your kids about religion is one thing, brainwashing your kids into one particular religion however is immoral.
^this.
I have a lot of hope that the new tech savvy, college generation won't put their kids through the religion dellussion.
Also, religious schools are being forced to closed due to lack of funds. Hah-hah! :D
Quote from: kbush on September 23, 2011, 04:15:28 AM
i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!
Sorry, but I can't possibly see the benefit of being brought up to believe falsehoods just so one can unlearn them. That's not the same as learning about fictional characters like Peter Pan where the child is told Peter is fictional, that's about stretching one's imagination and learning what fiction can be used for. But to be brought up and told, by people in authority, that a lie is true does nothing but screw up kids.
Some of the de-conversion stories I have read are horrendous and the victims of theism would have had a very different life if they had not been deliberately mislead in their youth.
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 08:55:03 AM
Quote from: kbush on September 23, 2011, 04:15:28 AM
i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!
Sorry, but I can't possibly see the benefit of being brought up to believe falsehoods just so one can unlearn them. That's not the same as learning about fictional characters like Peter Pan where the child is told Peter is fictional, that's about stretching one's imagination and learning what fiction can be used for. But to be brought up and told, by people in authority, that a lie is true does nothing but screw up kids.
Some of the de-conversion stories I have read are horrendous and the victims of theism would have had a very different life if they had not been deliberately mislead in their youth.
Yet there are also those, like me, who were brought up in a mildly religious school affiliated with the Church next door who found the religious education profoundly FUN. I loved the singing, listening to inspiring stories, celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was in no way compelled BE religious.
This has left me with a working knowledge of the Christian Church and an appreciation of what it CAN offer. I have been able to make an informed and free decision as to my own A-theistic beliefs. I value the religious education I recieved and take many positives from it.
I view my school as having OFFERED Christian religion as part of the school package which I subsequently declined to follow up. No harm done, and many happy memories.
I understand that in the Bible Belt there is huge compulsion and unhealthy stigma attached to BEING (or not) a Christian. This is not RELIGION perverting free will, this is PEOPLE perverting religion.
Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?
When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 23, 2011, 02:00:05 PM
Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?
When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.
Uhhhh, what? Just because we are arguing against a parent putting a child into a religious school, doesn't mean that we don't acknowledge a parent's right to ultimately choose. Believe it or not, you can disagree with something without advocating that it be "banned" and without wanting to strip someone's "right to free-will."
I don't remember anyone saying anything about forcing the whole world to put their kids into secular schools.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 23, 2011, 02:00:05 PM
Yet there are also those, like me, who were brought up in a mildly religious school affiliated with the Church next door who found the religious education profoundly FUN. I loved the singing, listening to inspiring stories, celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was in no way compelled BE religious.
This has left me with a working knowledge of the Christian Church and an appreciation of what it CAN offer. I have been able to make an informed and free decision as to my own A-theistic beliefs. I value the religious education I recieved and take many positives from it.
I view my school as having OFFERED Christian religion as part of the school package which I subsequently declined to follow up. No harm done, and many happy memories.
I understand that in the Bible Belt there is huge compulsion and unhealthy stigma attached to BEING (or not) a Christian. This is not RELIGION perverting free will, this is PEOPLE perverting religion.
Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?
When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.
I agree with the majority of what you have said. I was also brought up in a mild C of E primary school where I actually learned more about other religions than protestant Christianity (mainly due to the fact that the majority of the teachers were not of the schools faith). I think that even though children may be indoctrinated from a young age that can still be challenged, just like a child's belief in sandy claws as they are still developing. The problem starts to arise in secondary school when the teachings get more intense and the children's mind is becoming more developed. We are starting to see a rise of old testament writings being taught as fact in science and history in some religious secondary schools in the UK, which can only be a bad thing. I also think the strict religious schools help create a divide within communities and also are not doing the job of help providing the children with the necessary tools they will need when they leave school.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 23, 2011, 02:00:05 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 08:55:03 AM
Quote from: kbush on September 23, 2011, 04:15:28 AM
i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!
Sorry, but I can't possibly see the benefit of being brought up to believe falsehoods just so one can unlearn them. That's not the same as learning about fictional characters like Peter Pan where the child is told Peter is fictional, that's about stretching one's imagination and learning what fiction can be used for. But to be brought up and told, by people in authority, that a lie is true does nothing but screw up kids.
Some of the de-conversion stories I have read are horrendous and the victims of theism would have had a very different life if they had not been deliberately mislead in their youth.
Yet there are also those, like me, who were brought up in a mildly religious school affiliated with the Church next door who found the religious education profoundly FUN. I loved the singing, listening to inspiring stories, celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was in no way compelled BE religious.
This has left me with a working knowledge of the Christian Church and an appreciation of what it CAN offer. I have been able to make an informed and free decision as to my own A-theistic beliefs. I value the religious education I recieved and take many positives from it.
I view my school as having OFFERED Christian religion as part of the school package which I subsequently declined to follow up. No harm done, and many happy memories.
I understand that in the Bible Belt there is huge compulsion and unhealthy stigma attached to BEING (or not) a Christian. This is not RELIGION perverting free will, this is PEOPLE perverting religion.
Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?
When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.
You appear to have had an experience very similar to my wife and she came out of it an atheist. But how much better(?) could you have been if you had been brought up without any religious nonsense with a humanist focus and ethical lessons free of institutionalised superstition? Yes you came out ok making do with the best of a bad job. I don't see why we should go on this way.
I won't be stripping anybodys rights to pratice any religion they want. But neither will I keep silent about what I think is wrong with religion.
You keep making the arguement that "i turned out ok. I turned out ok."
But yeah, so what. You arent the majority of people. And you aren't a gay man or woman who feels trapped and made to hate themselves by religious people or parents.
My 26 year old best friend is a lesbian, and her parents constantly protest anything pro-choice or pro homosexual because they are bible fucking idiots. I hate them. I really do. My friend just graduated college, and is saving to move, but never told them. She felt suicidal sometimes.
Now please sare tell me teaching religion is a-ok. >:(
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 23, 2011, 05:00:30 PM
You keep making the arguement that "i turned out ok. I turned out ok."
But yeah, so what. You arent the majority of people. And you aren't a gay man or woman who feels trapped and made to hate themselves by religious people or parents.
My 26 year old best friend is a lesbian, and her parents constantly protest anything pro-choice or pro homosexual because they are bible fucking idiots. I hate them. I really do. My friend just graduated college, and is saving to move, but never told them. She felt suicidal sometimes.
Now please sare tell me teaching religion is a-ok. >:(
Beware of the 'appeal to popularity' or you end up with the 'tyranny of the majority'. And Scissorlegs grew up in the UK, not the USA. His experiences will be very, very different from yours.
No problem, Tank. I was just rambling on my personal experience like an old man. :)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 23, 2011, 05:15:18 PM
No problem, Tank. I was just rambling on my personal experience like an old man. :)
as a man who's not getting any younger, I consider that both ageist and sexist ;)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 23, 2011, 05:00:30 PM
You keep making the arguement that "i turned out ok. I turned out ok."
But yeah, so what. You arent the majority of people. And you aren't a gay man or woman who feels trapped and made to hate themselves by religious people or parents.
My 26 year old best friend is a lesbian, and her parents constantly protest anything pro-choice or pro homosexual because they are bible fucking idiots. I hate them. I really do. My friend just graduated college, and is saving to move, but never told them. She felt suicidal sometimes.
Now please sare tell me teaching religion is a-ok. >:(
Actually I AM the majority of people in the UK. All state schools taught with a Christian leaning, though we were never expected to BE religious. There is no major stigma here for non-belivers, just disdain. I have big enough shoulders to deal with that.
Religious Zealots can be found, but they don't predominate like they do in the US. We are not a particularly religious country and with new State school secularism we are becoming less so.
You must remember that it's not Religion per se that creates an oppressive society, it's the PEOPLE who pervert the religion. I can't help that the US is a breeding-ground for mindless nutters. (feel free to challenge me on this one).
So, yes, I will argue that my children have nothing to fear from religion. AND THAT IS MY OPINION.
And, I once again suggest that we agree to disagree.
I think your kids will turn out fine Scissorlegs, whether they choose to be atheists or Christians or anything else.
You're clearly open minded and it sounds as if your partner is too, and I'm sure any religious indoctrination won't be that severe at a CofE school, and if it is you'll make sure your kids get to learn there are other opinions out there too..
QuoteYou appear to have had an experience very similar to my wife and she came out of it an atheist. But how much better(?) could you have been if you had been brought up without any religious nonsense with a humanist focus and ethical lessons free of institutionalised superstition? Yes you came out ok making do with the best of a bad job. I don't see why we should go on this way.
We may, in such case, have spent more time learning about the facts of the world, and that may have been time better spent. I cannot comment on the 'what ifs'. I would certainly not have gleaned an insight into Christianity that I regard as useful knowledge in todays world.
But, yes, in an ideal world we would all learn about the facts of science, and never have to encounter religion in any context other than historical reference.
It's a long road to complete secularism, but a worthy aspiration.
There are many great school that give children great experiences without religion in it all - where I grew up in Canada, the vast majority of people go through a secular school system. There are some private religious schools and some home schooling, but it is the minority by fair.
I just find it strange that you are defending a religious school by pointing to its lack of "religious-ness".
I am trying to get across that a CofE school in this country does not pose any threat to its children from the perspective of an Atheist parent. Not all religious schools are indoctrinating or brainwashing in their teachings.
The fact that we choose to send our children to this school (which is by no means geographically the closest) is a function of its educational excellence, not its religion. If I run the risk of being labled a hypocrite for sending them there whilst being a strong Atheist, so be it. My children's academic education is my main consideration. Their philosophical education is in safe hands at home.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 25, 2011, 12:11:49 AM
I am trying to get across that a CofE school in this country does not pose any threat to its children from the perspective of an Atheist parent. Not all religious schools are indoctrinating or brainwashing in their teachings.
The fact that we choose to send our children to this school (which is by no means geographically the closest) is a function of its educational excellence, not its religion. If I run the risk of being labled a hypocrite for sending them there whilst being a strong Atheist, so be it. My children's academic education is my main consideration. Their philosophical education is in safe hands at home.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 25, 2011, 12:11:49 AM
I am trying to get across that a CofE school in this country does not pose any threat to its children from the perspective of an Atheist parent. Not all religious schools are indoctrinating or brainwashing in their teachings.
The fact that we choose to send our children to this school (which is by no means geographically the closest) is a function of its educational excellence, not its religion. If I run the risk of being labled a hypocrite for sending them there whilst being a strong Atheist, so be it. My children's academic education is my main consideration. Their philosophical education is in safe hands at home.
I think this is a very fair view of moderate Christian schools in the UK.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 10, 2011, 05:54:37 PM
Something in another thread prompted me to ask a wider audience about this. I wondered if any of you are in relationships with theists (however inactive). And if you have kids, how do you share their spiritual education.
I'll give you my starter for 10...
My wife is a church goer (C of E) and was adamant that she wanted our 2 kids christened. That was fine with me as I know it can help Xtians in later life if they choose to take that path (I'm all for free will as long as it doesn't affect me). I, however, played no part in the ceremony (much to the chargrin of the vicar). The kids are now in an excellent C of E school, courtesy of the church (cheers for that!).
It is slightly awkward knowing that the kids are routinely brainwashed (we all know the drill), and they sometimes come home with Q's about the bible or other religious matters. I enjoy engaging them on this level as it gives me the chance to offer a more balanced view. I do my best be be genuinely impartial, with statements like '...some people think that...', or 'it could also be seen this way:...', or 'maybe that was just a story to illustrate a point'. I am normally able to field any queries without directly contradicting the school. I have never had to answer the killer question though, "What do you believe, Daddy?"...yet. But this is not far off. The older I (or they??) get the harder it seems for me to hold my tongue. Maybe I'll start introducing more searching responses and request rationales for any voiced conclusions. I'm pretty confident that with some gentle encouragement they will draw their own sensible conclusions without me jarring God out from under them at a later date.
Do you think I'm being fair to myself / my wife / my kids?
I wonder how you've dealt with (or are dealing with) this....
In response to the "do you believe in god" question which my eldest has already asked I just said "nope, it's all made up". She did not respond with any anger or confusion or disbelief - neither was there any disappointment, she just took my answer at face value. I think honesty is the best policy. I followed up with "some people want to believe though, and that is up to them"
The funny thing is my wife didn't object to the honesty and bluntness that I told my daughter about god even though she has never stated herself as atheist (even though I think she is now) - yet she will not let me tell our 10 year old that Santa is made up! Because it will spoil everything. Nothing as funny as folk huh
I'll be telling him on Boxing Day so he's got a whole year to get over it (I remember how deflated I was when it was confirmed to me that Santa was a lie, invented to entertain children), I can't be having him going up to the big school next year still believing in Santa. :D
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 17, 2011, 11:37:46 AM
In response to the "do you believe in god" question which my eldest has already asked I just said "nope, it's all made up". She did not respond with any anger or confusion or disbelief - neither was there any disappointment, she just took my answer at face value. I think honesty is the best policy. I followed up with "some people want to believe though, and that is up to them"
The funny thing is my wife didn't object to the honesty and bluntness that I told my daughter about god even though she has never stated herself as atheist (even though I think she is now) - yet she will not let me tell our 10 year old that Santa is made up! Because it will spoil everything. Nothing as funny as folk huh
I'll be telling him on Boxing Day so he's got a whole year to get over it (I remember how deflated I was when it was confirmed to me that Santa was a lie, invented to entertain children), I can't be having him going up to the big school next year still believing in Santa. :D
Interesting! How old was your eldest when she asked? And did she have anyone else telling her that god DOES exist (school, aunties,TV)?
My eldest (currently 7) is starting to ask more serious questions as he matures, to which I am responding more directly. He hasn't asked me the 'killer' question yet. When he does I know he is ready to hear and understand the implications of the answer. He is already questioning aspects of religion for himself which means I am doing my job. The book on Noah, for example, always raises much hilarity when we examine the reality of it together - and HE brought that up.
I do have to tread a little lightly as my 4yo daughter has just started at the school and is enjoying the songs. Yes, she is learning that God created everything (just as my boy did at the same age), but I believe that conflicting ideas at her age will be harmful. The truth can wait until she reaches sufficient maturity to understand the fallibility of adults.
Interestingly though, my boy did have a great project on dinosaurs last year. And they do teach evolution. So, there seems to be a definite separation between the 'god' bits and the 'science' bits. That must be a tricky line to walk for the school before the kids start trying to rationally unify the concepts. I guess the school does not study in sufficient depth such Biblical detail that would expressly prevent unification.
You've obviously done an excellent job of 'realising' FC for the kids. Nice one! But youve gotta take the rough with the smooth on this one. :)
My daughter was about 11 when she asked. I'm not aware of anybody trying to convince that her god does exist, the most she'll have heard about it was at school, plus she used to go to a drama club ran by christians (because she liked drama, not god).
My son believes in god and Santa as a 10 year old because he does not know any better. He goes to a youth group one night a week and this is run by christians, so obviously he believes what they tell him. We don't really talk about god at home (apart from me scuttling off to the computer to rant on) and my wife is very protective of his emotions (long story, but he has some difficulties), so I'm not allowed to crush his view of god with reality. Yet.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 17, 2011, 01:54:24 PM
My daughter was about 11 when she asked. I'm not aware of anybody trying to convince that her god does exist, the most she'll have heard about it was at school, plus she used to go to a drama club ran by christians (because she liked drama, not god).
My son believes in god and Santa as a 10 year old because he does not know any better. He goes to a youth group one night a week and this is run by christians, so obviously he believes what they tell him. We don't really talk about god at home (apart from me scuttling off to the computer to rant on) and my wife is very protective of his emotions (long story, but he has some difficulties), so I'm not allowed to crush his view of god with reality. Yet.
Ha, we all have our crosses to bare (so to speak)...
There's a good 'family' Dawkins book out called 'The Magic of Reality'. It gets good press (from secular sources). I'll be getting it when mine are a bit older. One for the stocking...?!
I don't really like Dawkins and I don't like the christian view that all atheists are followers of Dawkins, "The god Delusion" is our "bible" and we are only atheists because he lead us into it. He's not really my cup of tea and I became an atheist all by myself.
The assumption from some christians that Dawkins is the atheist leader is typical theistic thinking, where you have to follow an authority figure and be told what you can and can't think >:(
I'm not asking you to worship him ;) t'was just a book recommendation...
It's not like Dawkins is proposing any particular philosophy (that I'm aware of). There's no such thing as Dawkinsism. It's (mostly) science and difficult to take an emotional view of, unless you are offended by his smarmy manner.
I agree about the mindset of the religious that we must 'take a leader'. God forbid that we are independantly free-thinking...
Seems like a lot of people around here aren't fond of Dawkins. I thought 'The God Delusion' was great. It sure as shit isn't my bible, but I'm sure we've all thought of most or all of Dawkins arguments before having read the book. It was just good to see them all put together by a respected scientific mind. Religion aside, he has written several noteworthy books on evolution. I know he is smug, but, can you blame him...
Quote from: Heisenberg on October 21, 2011, 11:49:51 PM
I know he is smug, but, can you blame him...
And he's hardly alone in smugness, esp. when you start to count in religious spokespeople. I don't mind Dawkins at all, it's Hitchens I have a problem with. I don't disagree with him but his manner puts
my teeth on edge so I can see where the religious could easily take offense and not bother to consider his point, even if they were otherwise inclined to be open-minded.
I'm not very familiar with Hitchens. Anyone have suggestions where to get started?
Quote from: Heisenberg on October 22, 2011, 01:45:06 AM
I'm not very familiar with Hitchens. Anyone have suggestions where to get started?
YouTube has quite a few interviews that will give a feeling for his style. ;D
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2011, 01:14:42 AM
Quote from: Heisenberg on October 21, 2011, 11:49:51 PM
I know he is smug, but, can you blame him...
And he's hardly alone in smugness, esp. when you start to count in religious spokespeople. I don't mind Dawkins at all, it's Hitchens I have a problem with. I don't disagree with him but his manner puts my teeth on edge so I can see where the religious could easily take offense and not bother to consider his point, even if they were otherwise inclined to be open-minded.
Yeah, he's not as accessible as Dawkins and has a very classical writing style - not at all in touch with the contemporary man in the street (i.e. me). But I don't think he has any interest in the man in the street - I believe it's all philosophical academia to him. I think that's where Dawkins excels - he likes to preach atheism to the masses and is very good at it. That's why the religious establishment are more afraid of him. He is to atheism what Robert Winston is to child psychology, but not quite as likable.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 22, 2011, 08:26:53 PM
I think that's where Dawkins excels - he likes to preach atheism to the masses and is very good at it.
Do you really consider him to be preaching atheism? I've always thought of it more as defending and explaning atheism.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2011, 10:12:15 PM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 22, 2011, 08:26:53 PM
I think that's where Dawkins excels - he likes to preach atheism to the masses and is very good at it.
Do you really consider him to be preaching atheism? I've always thought of it more as defending and explaning atheism.
Yes, in so far as he actively projects a message of atheism for the ears of the masses. I'm not saying he particularly 'preachy', he's just more of a natural preacher than Hitchens. There's nothing negative in that accusation.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2011, 01:14:42 AM
it's Hitchens I have a problem with. I don't disagree with him but his manner puts my teeth on edge so I can see where the religious could easily take offense and not bother to consider his point, even if they were otherwise inclined to be open-minded.
An open minded religious person? Do they exist?
I like Hitchens' style, and the more abrasive and sarcastic the better - let us not forget that we are dealing with a bunch of adult fairy believers here, that really should have grown out of it.
Theism deserves nothing more than mocking, and even Hitchens stops short of that.
Anybody ever seen any Pat Condell videos on religion? Many people call him racist because, though hating all religion he often specifically picks on Islam. Quite how not liking a particular
religion makes someone
racist escapes me.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2011, 01:14:42 AM
it's Hitchens I have a problem with. I don't disagree with him but his manner puts my teeth on edge so I can see where the religious could easily take offense and not bother to consider his point, even if they were otherwise inclined to be open-minded.
An open minded religious person? Do they exist?
{snip}
How do you think you get de-conversions? Luck?
Yeah but if they de-convert and turn atheist then they aren't an open minded religious person are they? They're an atheist. :)
Theism absolutely requires closed mindedness and belief. If you want to stay that way.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 04:52:01 PM
Yeah but if they de-convert and turn atheist then they aren't an open minded religious person are they? They're an atheist. :)
Theism absolutely requires closed mindedness and belief. If you want to stay that way.
But they had to be open minded theists in the first place, irrespective of what they ended up as. So there were, are and will be open minded theists. But that does not mean that all theist are open minded or closed minded.
By the way, have you ever seen a real life de-conversion happen over time on a forum? I conclude you've been on atheist forums a considerable time.
PS not talking about somebody already showing doubts taking the further step, but a theist turning atheist.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 05:01:01 PM
By the way, have you ever seen a real life de-conversion happen over time on a forum? I conclude you've been on atheist forums a considerable time.
PS not talking about somebody already showing doubts taking the further step, but a theist turning atheist.
I first started hanging around atheist sites in Jan 2006. I have seen a few deconversions. One particularly spectacular de-conversion was a creationist who joined Richard Dawkins Forum under the user name of Darwins Bulldog (initially as a piss take). It took about 800 'ish posts but he came around in the end. CursusWalker trolled atheist forums and got deconverted in the process :D
One definitly also sees the 'bugger I'm losing this!' reaction. HF was a bit like that.
The key thing is to really just keep one's cool in the face of the same old lame refuted arguments coming up again and again and again!
That's amazing and I've missed out. Are Darwins Bulldog and CursusWalker still about, but posting about atheism, or did the realisation that their beliefs were bunk eefectively end their need to post on atheist forums?
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 05:18:35 PM
That's amazing and I've missed out. Are Darwins Bulldog and CursusWalker still about, but posting about atheism, or did the realisation that their beliefs were bunk eefectively end their need to post on atheist forums?
Darwins Bulldog and Cursuswalker are both very active posters on atheist and theist forums. One could almost call them evangelical ;D
DB is a teacher in Australia and actively campaigns on aspects of education law to make sure evolution is taught in all science classes and creationism isn't.
Wow that is fantastic :) They were seriously theists that converted and now spread OUR word? :)
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 05:59:51 PM
Wow that is fantastic :) They were seriously theists that converted and now spread OUR word? :)
Yep. 100%
There was another chap, who's user name escapes me, who went through agonies as he tried to rationalise his creationism. One week he'd be one view and the next week the other. He just stopped posting in the end, poor sod.
Quote from: Tank on October 23, 2011, 07:12:15 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 23, 2011, 05:59:51 PM
Wow that is fantastic :) They were seriously theists that converted and now spread OUR word? :)
Yep. 100%
There was another chap, who's user name escapes me, who went through agonies as he tried to rationalise his creationism. One week he'd be one view and the next week the other. He just stopped posting in the end, poor sod.
That's not good to hear, sounds like mental torture. A lot of x-tians probably do go through torture when they question their faith.
Every year I forget that once a year on a given Friday I shouldn't eat meat. At work, I keep telling people they got "a little something" on their forehead, and they say, "It's ash Wednesday." :o
My son thinks the sign of the cross is people pointing at the "holes" they have in their body... seriously, he thinks they point at their mouth, belly button and nipples. He even said, "Now I know why they do that, I could never figure out why people did that, I thought they were just doing the letter T!" The other day, we left him with his aunt and when we picked him up he said, "Good thing you guys came for me, they were about to take me to church!"
All this is because I have never talked to him about god, religion, spirits, virgins, angels, afterlife, etc. He has asked, but I always ask him what He thinks about it. I don't want to influence him either way, but he does want to know what I think.
The other day my husband told him he should thank god for the food, and he said, "I don't think there is a god." My husband looked at me and said, "What have you told him?" I told the truth, I said, "Nothing." He told out son that he believed there was a god. Our son said, "O.K, maybe there is one."
Quote from: magdalena on October 25, 2011, 05:53:06 AM
At work, I keep telling people they got "a little something" on their forehead, and they say, "It's ash Wednesday." :o
What's that..? Some sort of fireman holiday..? :-\
That kid of yours... Asmodean approves. And he usually disapproves of any very small human. ;D I mean, they ARE pointing at their nose and nipples and I myself have been told to have held that belief at one point. And food..? Should you not just thank whoever has prepared it, given that you can't nor are you expected to personally thank the farmers, the processing plants and the entire distribution network..? The fuck does god have to do with me tacos anyways?!
First day at Catholic school (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk)
Quote from: magdalena on October 25, 2011, 05:53:06 AM
Every year I forget that once a year on a given Friday I shouldn't eat meat. At work, I keep telling people they got "a little something" on their forehead, and they say, "It's ash Wednesday." :o
My son thinks the sign of the cross is people pointing at the "holes" they have in their body... seriously, he thinks they point at their mouth, belly button and nipples. He even said, "Now I know why they do that, I could never figure out why people did that, I thought they were just doing the letter T!" The other day, we left him with his aunt and when we picked him up he said, "Good thing you guys came for me, they were about to take me to church!"
All this is because I have never talked to him about god, religion, spirits, virgins, angels, afterlife, etc. He has asked, but I always ask him what He thinks about it. I don't want to influence him either way, but he does want to know what I think.
The other day my husband told him he should thank god for the food, and he said, "I don't think there is a god." My husband looked at me and said, "What have you told him?" I told the truth, I said, "Nothing." He told out son that he believed there was a god. Our son said, "O.K, maybe there is one."
Excellent. Just a doubt is all an intelligent little human needs to draw a correct conclusion in his own good time and given an even playing field. But Daddy needs to be equally as respectful and accommodating of your beliefs as you are to his.
Quote from: magdalena on October 25, 2011, 05:53:06 AM
Every year I forget that once a year on a given Friday I shouldn't eat meat. At work, I keep telling people they got "a little something" on their forehead, and they say, "It's ash Wednesday." :o
My son thinks the sign of the cross is people pointing at the "holes" they have in their body... seriously, he thinks they point at their mouth, belly button and nipples. He even said, "Now I know why they do that, I could never figure out why people did that, I thought they were just doing the letter T!" The other day, we left him with his aunt and when we picked him up he said, "Good thing you guys came for me, they were about to take me to church!"
All this is because I have never talked to him about god, religion, spirits, virgins, angels, afterlife, etc. He has asked, but I always ask him what He thinks about it. I don't want to influence him either way, but he does want to know what I think.
The other day my husband told him he should thank god for the food, and he said, "I don't think there is a god." My husband looked at me and said, "What have you told him?" I told the truth, I said, "Nothing." He told out son that he believed there was a god. Our son said, "O.K, maybe there is one."
You are doing a cracking job Mrs! But I do suggest that at some appropriate moment you do discuss virgins with him as they, unlike the rest of the list,
could get him into trouble ;D
Quote from: Stevil on September 10, 2011, 09:28:45 PM
I would not be happy if my children wereto be sent to a religious based school. I see it as brainwashing. My kids ought to be exposed to a variety of ideas, they ought to be able to consiously choose.
Christenning/Baptism can happen later in life. It does not need to be forced onto a child or infant. Let them decide later in life. There is no hurry.
If they are being taught Christian views then I think the same amount of effort should be put into teaching them Atheist, Muslim, Buddism, Greek, Norse, Jewish, Maori, Aborigoni etc. Send them to a Muslim summer camp, or a Hindi Camp. Let them see other beliefs, let them make informed decisions as to their beliefs.
Read them the God Delusion book.
At the moment they seem to be getting taught only Christian. Children are such trusting, impressionable things. You are brainwashing them and taking choice away from them.
I completely agree with the idea of teaching them every philosophy and religion. I'm Christian and I went to public school for the majority of my life. I've had experience with 3 religious schools all my life, once in pre-k then two different ones in my freshman year of high school. Believe me when I say that you really need to get them out of there. It's a horrible environment for children, and that's coming from a Christian. They may seem happy now, but after enough years of you never giving your true input on Christianity and them being constantly brainwashed by the school and undoubtedly the other kids at the school, they're either going to be stick like that forever, and inevitably end up raising their kids like that, or they're going to be the most miserable children on the face of the planet. I remember after my first month of Christian school in high school, I was seriously debating on faking Atheism just to get out of it. Wish you the best of luck with your situation.