Did you choose to be an atheist because you wanted to escape morality?

Started by Thunder Road, December 28, 2011, 09:30:47 PM

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Sweetdeath

Why are catholics so against asking questions?
I guess because  knowledge and truth equal freedom from religion. :/
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Liar For Jesus

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events. 

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

Liar For Jesus

#92
Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 08:51:38 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Dont be silly .  When people have for themselves the ideology of moral relativism and no God for ultimate moral accountability, which way do you think they are going to go ?!   Moreover,  the typical atheist is apathetic where stringent morals are concerned and commonly retort with :'Dont push morals on me'  .  People arent atheist because of a cogent worldview , rather as a man recently admitted to me ,  he is an atheist for OTHER than scientific reasoning.  In short, atheism has the benefit of being freed up from moral restraint .  Its the chief reason that militant atheists are the way they are toward anything Christian .......because its an infringement on their autonomy . You can see this plainly and daily .   Its exactly as the Bible reports.  Read Romans 1:19-22 in the Bible.    Now...thats not to say that atheists cant be moral because they surely can ...its just that  their own ideology of moral relativism  is the rudder in nearly every atheists life.  No morals =  more fun  .  If this wasnt true then you wouldnt hear from atheists :

1. No one is going to tell me how to live.
2. Right from wrong is a grey area.
3. Who are you to tell me what i should and shouldnt do .
4. If there is a God, then he gave us freewill do act as we want.

The above is a tacit admission to willful suppression of moral conscience .  Im sure ALL other people groups do the willful suppression thing...but the people group(s) that want moral relativism lead the way. 

Traveler

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
... the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

Unsubstantiated claim. Right now the catholics are bearing the brunt of the accusations, but I know of absolutely no evidence that they're the only ones guilty. The only child molester I know personally was a conservative lutheran minister, but we've heard plenty of stories from just about every flavor of congregation, including evangelicals.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Traveler

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:42:19 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 08:51:38 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Dont be silly .  When people have for themselves the ideology of moral relativism and no God for ultimate moral accountability, which way do you think they are going to go ?!   Moreover,  the typical atheist is apathetic when morals are concerned and commonly retort with :'Dont push morals on me'  .  People arent atheist because of a cogent worldview , rather as a man recently admitted to me ,  he is an atheist for OTHER than scientific reasoning.  In short, atheism has the benefit of being freed up from moral restraint .  Its the chief reason that militant atheists are the way they are toward anything Christian .......because its an infringement on their autonomy .   Its exactly as the Bible reports.  Read Romans 1:19-22 in the Bible.    Now...thats not to say that atheists cant be moral because they surely can ...its just that  their own ideology of moral relativism  is the rudder in nearly every atheists life.

Then why is it that the more secular a society is, the less crime they have?
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Brieze


Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events. 

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

So.. Are we debating chuch or is this just a FYI? Or are you recruiting?

Liar For Jesus

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 10:44:23 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
... the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

Unsubstantiated claim. Right now the catholics are bearing the brunt of the accusations, but I know of absolutely no evidence that they're the only ones guilty. The only child molester I know personally was a conservative lutheran minister, but we've heard plenty of stories from just about every flavor of congregation, including evangelicals.

I never said they were the only ones.   But, the RCC has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars just in the last century alone  to hush violated people  and in court of law judgements of Priests and Bishops.   The RCC has a paedophilia problem  and a coverup problem as well.   Do a google for independent studies on this.  Youll find tons.

Liar For Jesus

Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 10:45:16 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:42:19 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 20, 2012, 08:51:38 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

Oh, this is so wrong in so many ways. Once more, with feeling. An atheist has no god belief. Period. End of sentence. There is no book, there is no meeting place, there is no set of rules. It is simply a lack of a god belief. We don't just pick our morals out of the air. We learn them from our parents, we see what works in the world. We see that our child cries when they're bullied, and so its obvious that bullying is wrong and bad and shouldn't be done. Ditto with murder, rape, pillage, etc. We are not blind. We see the results of bad acts on ourselves, our friends, our families. We have empathy towards our fellows (unless we're psychopaths) and want to be good so that they're not hurt. These concepts have existed for thousands of years. Certainly WAY before the bible was written. General moral concepts have existed in every society on the planet I'd bet. Details change, such as the negative attitude toward gays by some religions, whereas most rational people work out their ethical stance based on harm rather than ancient texts.

I really, really wish you'd come out of your closet so we could talk for real. I call you out as a religious person attempting to disguise themselves as an atheist. You clearly have NO idea what it means to lack a god belief, and I'm tired of your posturing. Honesty is a virtue. Please use it.

Edited to add: When I say "we" above, re: moral/ethical learnings, I'm generalizing. All atheists are different and these generalities are not part of an atheist code or something. I realize that could be confusing.

Dont be silly .  When people have for themselves the ideology of moral relativism and no God for ultimate moral accountability, which way do you think they are going to go ?!   Moreover,  the typical atheist is apathetic when morals are concerned and commonly retort with :'Dont push morals on me'  .  People arent atheist because of a cogent worldview , rather as a man recently admitted to me ,  he is an atheist for OTHER than scientific reasoning.  In short, atheism has the benefit of being freed up from moral restraint .  Its the chief reason that militant atheists are the way they are toward anything Christian .......because its an infringement on their autonomy .   Its exactly as the Bible reports.  Read Romans 1:19-22 in the Bible.    Now...thats not to say that atheists cant be moral because they surely can ...its just that  their own ideology of moral relativism  is the rudder in nearly every atheists life.

Then why is it that the more secular a society is, the less crime they have?

First read this definition of 'secular'  : 
sec·u·lar
   [sek-yuh-ler]

adjective

of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

A secular society is one that doesnt hold anything sacred , not even ones personal genitilia .  And you think crime in a secular society is lower ?!   One only need look at all the current societal ills of today to see that a secular american (and UK) society has been devastating for society.  The effects of atheistic moral relativism and moral-apathy  is the catalyst behind EVERY crime committed.   You know things are pretty bad when the masses are willing to pretend two men making love with each others feces and fisting each other up the a_ _   along with two women jamming foreign objects up one anothers vagina  ... is considered healthy and morally permissible.  It shows how readily the masses are willing to suppress their moral consciences  fueld by total apathy toward degradation.  Most people are so brainwashed, they truly dont know or care about right from wrong any longer .  They have reprobate minds and gather around them like minded people for justification of their perverted and disgusting MO .    So please...dont make absurd declarations that a secular society is better, good, and of less crime ... in the name of common sense and truth.

Liar For Jesus

Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events. 

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

So.. Are we debating chuch or is this just a FYI? Or are you recruiting?

Just stating the facts .   I sure aint going to recruit for anything atheistic by nature .  At least The Christian Faith has proper moral ideology , even if some followers fail in that regard.  With atheism,  its open season for anything-goes.

Sweetdeath

(( Head desking so hard. ))
So all atheists are vile marauders who rape and punder, right?

Please, SA, just admit you are christian who has no interest in leaving your religious views.
From everything i've read, you seem to want to someone prove morals and manners come from the church.  You have a very weak argument,and have yet to secular society = chaos.

Two words : middle east. Religion has kept them so peaceful. :)
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Whitney

Quote from: Liar For Jesus on January 20, 2012, 11:14:38 PM
First read this definition of 'secular'  : 
sec·u·lar
   [sek-yuh-ler]

adjective

of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

A secular society is one that doesnt hold anything sacred , not even ones personal genitilia .  And you think crime in a secular society is lower ?!   One only need look at all the current societal ills of today to see that a secular american (and UK) society has been devastating for society.  The effects of atheistic moral relativism and moral-apathy  is the catalyst behind EVERY crime committed.   You know things are pretty bad when the masses are willing to pretend two men making love with each others feces and fisting each other up the a_ _   along with two women jamming foreign objects up one anothers vagina  ... is considered healthy and morally permissible.  It shows how readily the masses are willing to suppress their moral consciences  fueld by total apathy toward degradation.  Most people are so brainwashed, they truly dont know or care about right from wrong any longer .  They have reprobate minds and gather around them like minded people for justification of their perverted and disgusting MO .    So please...dont make absurd declarations that a secular society is better, good, and of less crime ... in the name of common sense and truth.

You are really living up to your name today.

I don't even know where to begin on how wrong you are or how inappropriate it is for you to twist a word in order to make anyone that isn't religious sound like they are all immoral whores.  If you can't learn how to discuss subjects in a civil manner you will be banned.  warning 2.  Honestly, if I were you I'd be ashamed.

Guardian85

If religious moral teachings are so important for a safe and stable society, why does 85% christian USA have ten times more reported crime per capita then 95% secular Japan?

Why is the rate of repeat offenders in the US prison system 7/10, when in 85% atheist Norway it is only 2/10?

Why are atheists in the american prison system 0,02% of the prison population when the number of atheists in the society is 10% or more?

You have no argument. Concede the defeat.


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Guardian85 on January 21, 2012, 12:05:49 AM
If religious moral teachings are so important for a safe and stable society, why does 85% christian USA have ten times more reported crime per capita then 95% secular Japan?

Why is the rate of repeat offenders in the US prison system 7/10, when in 85% atheist Norway it is only 2/10?

Why are atheists in the american prison system 0,02% of the prison population when the number of atheists in the society is 10% or more?

You have no argument. Concede the defeat.

He just got served!
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Brieze


Quote from: Liar For Jesus on January 20, 2012, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PM

Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 08:07:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 20, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brieze on January 20, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
I'm agnostic and pretty much always have been. I'm more "christian" than 99% of the christians I've met, and I've met a lot. That's a large reason why I never joined a religion. I didn't want to be anything like the people.

My morals come from just general common sense and the desire to do and be good.

If i understand the Bible correctly (which is what Christians read and follow),  then you arent to get your morals from your own understanding but from the Bible ,namely, the teachings of Christ and major ones from the 10 Commandments .  Also, from what my Christian friends tell me,  there should be no such thing as a loner-Christian and such people get fueled from being in a corporate church envirnoment...much the same way that atheists find in their many formal Associations worldwide.  So if youre going to be a Christian, I think you should dive in all the way. And id say the same to an Atheist  .

I believe the bible also says you should pray in your closet privately VS doing so in public (not exact quote but you get the idea), there's also a line about the road to Jesus is in your heart.
So, with that in mind, a corporate church environment goes against the bible/Christ's teachings and thus makes sucky followers. ISJ

I'm okay with admitting I don't know.

The Bible says both...to pray by yourself to God in private and it also says not to forsake the gathering of yourselves (in number) .  The church environment is for corporate worship of God, to grow together with other like minded people, to learn more about God whether Christian or not,  and to serve and help in church or para-church ministries.  It is also a good place to meet married folks and single folks, according to your status.  Ive also had some of the best Chili there on their Chili Cookoff events.  

Its interesting to note that there was a study conducted recently where more and more atheist parents are dropping off their children at their local church ;  so obviously they see value in that environment (and the peadophilia problem is almost entirely the Roman Catholic Church and not Evangelical Churches) .

So.. Are we debating chuch or is this just a FYI? Or are you recruiting?

Just stating the facts .   I sure aint going to recruit for anything atheistic by nature .  At least The Christian Faith has proper moral ideology , even if some followers fail in that regard.  With atheism,  its open season for anything-goes.
Whats proper ahout it?

If the followers don't, ya know, actually follow the ideology, how does that make their morals any different from your view on atheism morals?


Traveler

The troll has finally shown his true colors. I love his new screen name (Liar For Jesus, in case it gets changed before anyone reads this).
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.