Happy Atheist Forum

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Saying that homosexuals should have equal rights is a lot different from wanting everyone to be gay.

Exactly. That's going on my facebook...

QuoteI want you to name a country that says a 12 year old is an adult and DOES NOT frown on homosexual relationships

Don't think there aren't people trying...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... id=2202895 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2202895)

Ah, the European version of NAMBLA. That guy looks creepy, giving most people who openly support this stuff are generally pedophiles and disgusting creatures.

QuoteVan den Berg was fined and given a suspended prison sentence for molesting an 11-year-old boy in 1987. After his background became known last month, he was chased from the trailer park where he lived in the city of Oostvoorne.

They have trailer parks there?!


This reminds me of Bad Santa.

"Do you like kids?"

"FUCk no I ain't no pervert!!!"

Not that you can say all pedos look like _____,  but doesn't he perfectly fit the picture of what you would think one would look like.  As for the remark about trailer parks...rednecks aint just an American creation.

Well I think those people should be expelled from the Netherlands and should live in a country like Egypt or another craphole.

Or just be shot or executed in a very grisly way.

"Pedophile Island" sounds like a reality series.  I personally endorse the Stu Burguiere incinerator method.

Burguiere is a strong supporter of the death penalty, especially for child molesters. He half-seriously, half-jokingly supports a policy of throwing child molesters alive into an incinerator.  -- Stu Burguiere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Burguiere)

They should have that, they have everything else. And the winner gets injected with AIDS!

glad i provoked some serious discussion here.  Bigmac, Jassman and Iplaw, you make some good points, some of which I have no answer to, especially Jassman.  I still think homosexuality is wrong, though.

Mommasquid, maybe the word 'high-brow' wasn't very correct, was it.  I suppose I'm not very cultured - bad choice of words.  I'm not dangerous, though.
 thanks for the replies and the links, its just that i'm in a hurry right now, due to pressures of work.  Hope to reply more fully soon.

QuoteI view homosexuality as wrong, both from a biblical, and from a 'natural' standpoint.

And both these views have no legitimacy.  Clearly any biblical demand on homosexuals is archaic and a mere fiat of old stupidity. Why would the bigotry of nomadic bronze age goatherders be of any significance in this day and age?

Wigan has its share of Homosexuals just as everywhere else, so who declares them 'un-natural'?  It is well described and documented and as old as human relationships were recorded.

Huxley, indeed Wigan has it's fair share of homosexuals.

As I pointed out, though, in an earlier posting (maybe on another forum), why are so many atheists in favour of homosexuality?  maybe it has something to do with the maxim 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law', which is a satanic exhortation.

Are there really so many atheists who agree that homosexuality is right and accepted?  Without meaning to speak 'down' to you personally, as someone else pointed out recently - 'where are all the real men?'

It wasnt iplaw that commented on Wigan's homosexuals.

I apologise. It must be because I'm new here but for a minute I thought you were being serious.

Huxley,

no need to apologise.  The mistake was all mine..  I'm new here myself.

as for being serious, well, yes, I am being half serious.   You would have to follow all my complicated threads to understand.  Again I apologise.

WIGAN - LAND OF THE FREE - HOME OF THE BRAVE

...or something like that.

Which half is it then?

there I go again, I credited the posting to iplaw, when it was you, Huxley, please note that I've corrected the mistake.

Huxley

not sure I get your drift, which half is that then..
you are a wiley character, arent' you?

my mother warned me about people like you!

Onlyme, atheists often "agree" with homosexuality because most of them "agree" with basic human rights. Whether homosexuality is "natural" or not is irrelevent (although, considering its history and the existence of homosexuality in other animals, I wouldn't ever call it that), because it doesn't harm anyone for a person to have a certain sexual orientation.

Quote from: "onlyme"Huxley, indeed Wigan has it's fair share of homosexuals.

As I pointed out, though, in an earlier posting (maybe on another forum), why are so many atheists in favour of homosexuality?  maybe it has something to do with the maxim 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law', which is a satanic exhortation.

Are there really so many atheists who agree that homosexuality is right and accepted?  Without meaning to speak 'down' to you personally, as someone else pointed out recently - 'where are all the real men?'

I feel that people should be free to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else's freedom. Homosexuality doesn't affect me at all. It's not like gay people are forcing me to watch what they do or anything. So why should I care what two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors?

onlyme, why do you care? How does it affect you in any way? Is your quality of life degraded if you're living around a few homosexuals? Would you ever have a gay person as a friend?

Quote from: "onlyme"'where are all the real men?'

Do you mean the people who don't feel they should get to dictate what others would like to do with their lives? Right here, then.

I feel that whether homosexuality is a choice or genetic (I think there are plenty cases of both) is none of my business. What 2 or 59 consenting adults do in their bedroom is none of my damn business. Focusing on a person's sexuality reflects on your insecurity. Considering the bible also extolls racism, sexism, violence, etc. I really wouldn't hold its laws in such strict regards.

My views on homosexuality pretty much agree with the three posters above me.

Jassman, you mentioned something on an earlier post about 'encouragement' - do you need to be encouraged to feel attracted to a woman?'  I agree with you on that point.  I'm sorry I didn't reply at the time.  I was busy with work.

I do think though, that homosexuality is something that can be learned, as well as something inherent in genetic characteristics - take prison life, for instance.    I think because of today's liberal attitudes, more people are being encouraged to experiment with homosexuality.

Personally, I haven't been harmed by homosexuals in any way, they seem to be a pretty placid and harmless group, in my opinion and experience.  I do think, though, that it is wrong.  As I said earlier, no more wrong than say, mugging, stealing, etc, but nonetheless, wrong.

And, yes, I do have several friends who are homosexuals.  Doesn't mean I agree with their lifestyle, though, just as I don't agree with swearing, cheating, violence, etc, which I observe everyday, and have to put up with because I live in the real world, and there is no avoiding it.  I'm just saying that in an ideal society, heterosexual is the way forward, for society, for the family, for the good of mankind in general.

You honestly put homosexuality in a category with mugging and stealing? But you have homosexual friends? (I doubt you're very open about your bigotry, if you do) Do you also have friends who mug people?

court

I see what you mean.  No, I don't have friends who mug people, but I have friends who steal, lie, cheat, and are homosexuals, etc.   When I was young and reckless, I also mugged a couple of people, which I deeply regret now.   I was a bit of a wild card.  I wouldn't do it today, though, knowing what I know..  I know people from all walks of life.  Like I said, I live in the real world.

You people on here might not side with me now, since I admitted I mugged at least 2 people when I was younger.  I also attempted murder, on more than one occasion, which I deeply regret, and I am thankful that it didn't work out as planned.  Oh,  hindsight!  Also, as I said earlier, I don't consider myself a good Christian, just that hopefully I've learned my lesson on some points, and hopefully become a better person, hopefully for the good of society in general.   I try to give people the benefit of my wisdom, whether it is seen as such or not  - that is my intention.  I made mistakes, yes.  I don't claim to have atoned for them - I can't.   I just hope that people may read this and learn how to be a better person towards all members of society.    If my words mean nothing, then so be it.  They are there for the record, anyhow.

Okay, my big question is this: How can you possibly, logically class homosexuals, whose only "sin" is behind closed doors and affects no one but themselves, with thieves and muggers, whose crimes obviously harm people?

court, the reason I class homosexuals as such is because, according to the bible, 'every other sin is outside the body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.'

does that clarify the issue?  If not, please look up the bible reference, which, after all, I adhere to, or post again, requesting more information.

The bible has an archaic, ridiculous, unnatural, backwards view of sex. How can following your natural sexual desires be a sin against your body? Do you see masturbation as a sin as well?

If this turns into a debate, I'm going to start a new thread...

Done : http://www.happyatheistforum.com/fpost1677.html#1677 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/fpost1677.html#1677)

court, masturbation - I'm not sure if it's a sin, but I think it is something to be avoided in an 'ideal' sort of way, as it involves fantasies which may not be helpful, or conducive to the general good of people in society.

please, if you will, start a new thread, maybe we can bounce ideas off one-another.

HOLD THE FUCKING PHONE (or as you brits probably call it, the ringer!)!!!

Onlyme, you commited worse crimes than even me. I've stolen money and have violated quite a few federal laws (mommasquid probably gets my drift, think "[blank] shotgun" everyone ) but I've never actually mugged people or physically attempted to kill anyone.

I too regret what I've done but I don't put homosexuality in the same bracket as to the crimes I have committed. What was Jesus' old saying....He who is without blank cast the first blank?

Edit:  Deleted

Well the passion of the christ enter into his heart and he was saved from attempting to kill people and rob them. But since me and you have commited hardly any crimes (if any at all) we are going straight to eternal fire and brimstone because we didn't accept Jesus.

People don't change.  They just get better at hiding their true selves from the world.


Big Mac, all the cool people are going to hell.   See you there.    8)



(Sidebar:  Mac, you should really consider moving to AZ.  Open-carry gun laws.  Walk down the street with a pistol on each hip whistling a happy tune.)  

You know you are not the first person to mention this to me. A guy in the Army was bragging about it and him and guy from Virginia were trying to see who had the better open carry laws.

I might, right now I need to get my degree and then I might consider moving out of the Big Tex.

Quote from: "MommaSquid"People don't change.  They just get better at hiding their true selves from the world.

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time. My opinion varies day to day. Some days people will hear me say "People don't change.", and then again others I think "Wow, this person has changed a lot since I last seen them." Sometimes I feel that I have changed. Mostly it's just different opinions and things but my core values remain unaffected. I'm still undecided about the whole thing (and I think I will be for some time).

Quote from: "Jassman"

Quote from: "MommaSquid"People don't change.  They just get better at hiding their true selves from the world.

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time. My opinion varies day to day. Some days people will hear me say "People don't change.", and then again others I think "Wow, this person has changed a lot since I last seen them." Sometimes I feel that I have changed. Mostly it's just different opinions and things but my core values remain unaffected. I'm still undecided about the whole thing (and I think I will be for some time).

That's something I've wondered as well. People tell me I've changed over the past couple of years, but it was the opposite of what Mommasquid said. I've just become more comfortable with showing the real me to the world. So, of course, I don't exactly see the change.
In my experience, with the few people I've known well enough to judge this, people don't change. They pretend. But, I don't claim to have the answers, and I'm still undecided as well.

Quote from: "Court"People tell me I've changed over the past couple of years...I've just become more comfortable with showing the real me to the world.

Becoming more comfortable with the real you isn't changing, it's simply being a more refined version who you are.  Your core values are the same, you have just settled into your own skin a little better.  Congrats!

If you're a sneaky, lying, criminal then hiding those facts from the world is simply getting better at sneaking and lying.  Again, the core values haven't changed.

Quote from: "MommaSquid"

Quote from: "Court"People tell me I've changed over the past couple of years...I've just become more comfortable with showing the real me to the world.

Becoming more comfortable with the real you isn't changing, it's simply being a more refined version who you are.  Your core values are the same, you have just settled into your own skin a little better.  Congrats!

Oh, I didn't mean that I've actually changed. But you said: People don't change. They just get better at hiding their true selves from the world. I didn't change; I just got better at showing my true self to the world. I agree that my core values haven't changed a bit.

Maybe I should simply have said "people don't change".

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Maybe I should simply have said "people don't change".

Nah... the first one allows for much more introspection. I've been thinking about it nonstop for the last hour, ever since I read it!

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Maybe I should simply have said "people don't change".

No, Jassman's right. I just wanted you to know I understood you.

(Cartman voice)  I love you guys.

Quote from: "Jassman"

Quote from: "MommaSquid"People don't change.  They just get better at hiding their true selves from the world.

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time. My opinion varies day to day. Some days people will hear me say "People don't change.", and then again others I think "Wow, this person has changed a lot since I last seen them." Sometimes I feel that I have changed. Mostly it's just different opinions and things but my core values remain unaffected. I'm still undecided about the whole thing (and I think I will be for some time).

Hang on a minute, the point I was trying to make is these things I listed, I did in my younger (school) days.  There is NO way I could mug a person now, or attempt to kill them.  That's because something happened in my heart when Jesus showed Himself to me.    I couldn't harm another human being since then, as it would harm myself as much, if not more.  I'm sure you lot don't get my drift on this point.  I thought you were intelligent enough to know the difference.  Maybe not.  I didn't change myself.  I couldn't.

Ah, well, I'm not getting through, am I?

Does anyone at all understand?

At least I'm being honest.  There was a time when I would have robbed you, or killed you maybe just for the money.  You look at the former things, but not the latter things.  Do you really just see the earlier things in my life, but not the change that God has brought into my life since I believed?  That is only taking half the story.

If you're going to take one point, at least take the other as well.  I come as a package, you know.

Well, as I see god as your imaginary friend, I'm a bit wary of the "change." In my experience, people have the same weaknesses all their lives, no matter how their external conditions change.

Quote from: "onlyme"Does anyone at all understand?

Quote from: "onlyme"...the change that God has brought into my life since I believed?

I'm just not buying it.  I think you are hiding your true self behind god's skirt.  

I'd rather deal with the real you and not this hypocritical version of yourself.  At least I'd know what to expect.  (Of course, now that you have revealed your true self, I do know what I'm dealing with, so thank you.)

Do you think saying you're a good person makes you one?

Sing (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/s/southparkbiggerlongeruncutlyrics/icanchangelyrics.html) it with me, people:  

Yes, I can change, I can change
I know that I’ve been a dirty little bastard
I like to kill, I like to mate, I like to sing
But it’s okay cuz I can change

mommasquid

I think you are very cynical to take that view.  Do you really think I would have posted that if there was no change in my life.  Have you people not read the new testament story of zaccheus, the tax collector who climbed a tree to see Jesus, and afterwards said 'if I have robbed anybody, I will pay them back forefold?'   If there is not a change, then Christianity is pointless.

I AM a different person from then.  I could NEVER  harm another person now, and sleep at night.  

If you must take the former things I said as fact, please also take the latter as fact also, otherwise, you are not doing me justice, and also not showing your own intelligence in reading the whole story.

Quote from: "onlyme"Hang on a minute, the point I was trying to make is these things I listed, I did in my younger (school) days.  There is NO way I could mug a person now, or attempt to kill them.  That's because something happened in my heart when Jesus showed Himself to me.    I couldn't harm another human being since then, as it would harm myself as much, if not more.  I'm sure you lot don't get my drift on this point.  I thought you were intelligent enough to know the difference.  Maybe not.  I didn't change myself.  I couldn't.

Ah, well, I'm not getting through, am I?

Does anyone at all understand?

Well... thank God for the placebo effect!

Anyway, I think MommaSquid is probably being a little hard on you. You don't seem like much of a threat from your posts here. Someone doesn't risk losing all of their integrity on a forum talking about some horrible things they used to do, if they haven't gotten over it, right? I hope so, anyway. Either way I think it just looked a bit more dramatic then it should be when those four quotes of yours were placed together.

Quote from: "onlyme"Christianity is pointless.

Amen. (PS- Yes, I totally took that out of context. That's not what onlyme meant. I just thought it incredibly appropriate.)

Edited:

Quote from: "onlyme"Do you really think I would have posted that if there was no change in my life.

I think you believe you have changed.  I am not convinced.

Quote from: "onlyme"Have you people not read the new testament story of zaccheus, the tax collector...

Using a bible quote to defend your position doesn't score any points with me.

mommasquid, I love your postings!

Seriously, though, give me some credit at least.  I would rather help a person than do them harm.  Is that not a good thing?


My life in recent years bears this out.  It's not just an anomymous painting of myself in an internet forum.

If I am a fraud, I have nothing to say that is worth hearing.  Please switch off now.  If, however, I have witnessed something of a change in my life, please at least give me a chance, otherwise you are just blinkered, and in my opinion would rather hear a conman who would deceive, rob and harm you, just because he has clever words to ply you with.

I am an ordinary guy, hence the username, onlyme.  I made my mistakes, yes, but I regret them deeply.  I think I am a better person now.  I know I am.   Why can't you people accept that?

Quote from: "MommaSquid"

Quote from: "onlyme"I think you are very cynical to take that view.

I am cynical and a little paranoid.  That doesn’t mean I’m wrong.

Quote from: "onlyme"Do you really think I would have posted that if there was no change in my life.

I think you believe you have changed.  I am not convinced.

Quote from: "onlyme"Have you people not read the new testament story of zaccheus, the tax collector…

Using a bible quote to defend your position doesn’t score any points with me.  

Quote from: "onlyme"I AM a different person from then.  I could NEVER  harm another person now, and sleep at night.  

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Quote from: "onlyme"…you are not doing me justice…

That is not my job!

Quote from: "onlyme"…and also not showing your own intelligence…

Don’t worry your pretty little head about that.  

Quote from: "Jassman"I think it just looked a bit more dramatic then it should be when those four quotes of yours were placed together.

I think the emphasis was necessary.  When you spread statements out over the course of dozens of posts, maybe onlyme seems harmless to some of you.  But not to me.  If we were having these conversations in

 person, I know I wouldn’t be sitting next to this guy.

mommasquid, it seems to me that you hate me, don't you?

Even though you said something to the contrary in an earlier posting.


Why?

Onlyme, the more you defend yourself, the more hypocritical you sound. Just drop it. I don't trust you (I don't think I have for a while, though). Mommasquid doesn't trust you. That's not going to change, especially if you keep talking about what a good person you are. You're insistence is more convincing that you're lying than anything else.

Quote from: "onlyme"...it seems to me that you hate me...

I don't hate you.  But I don't trust you.

Quote from: "Court"Onlyme, the more you defend yourself, the more hypocritical you sound. Just drop it. I don't trust you (I don't think I have for a while, though). Mommasquid doesn't trust you. That's not going to change, especially if you keep talking about what a good person you are. You're insistence is more convincing that you're lying than anything else.

Well said, Court

Quote from: "Court"Onlyme, the more you defend yourself, the more hypocritical you sound. Just drop it. I don't trust you (I don't think I have for a while, though). Mommasquid doesn't trust you. That's not going to change, especially if you keep talking about what a good person you are. You're insistence is more convincing that you're lying than anything else.

court, you make a very good point

I dont know what to do in that case.  I've always said, though, that I don't consider myself a good person or a good Christian.   What can I do, what can I say?

Why should I lie, though?  I COULD lie, and nobody would give two hoots, but why should I lie?

It's a hard life.

You know what I would do? Not worry about it. Not everyone can like you or think you're a good person. Get over it.

Quote from: "onlyme"I dont know what to do in that case.

Probably the only thing that can be done is to ignore this issue and move on. Just continue taking part in discussions and let everyone form (or reform) their opinions of you from that. I guess that's just how the world works...

I love this forum, don't you:?

maybe I shouldn't have said that.

who knows?

This is a great place to bounce ideas off one-another

mommasquid, you said:

I don't hate you, but I don't trust you.


why not? do you think I have some underlying purpose that is meant to undermine you or cause you harm?

please respond.

Although, at the end of the day, I find that it's common for people not to trust me.

I don't know the answer, as I've said before, I'm just a seeker.

Wow, we tell you to just drop it and you refuse. Onlyme, you're just getting annoying.

Quote from: "Jassman"Probably the only thing that can be done is to ignore this issue and move on. Just continue taking part in discussions and let everyone form (or reform) their opinions of you from that. I guess that's just how the world works...

Excellent advice.  



I'm going to retire to a neutral corner, so to speak.  I'll refrain from responding to onlyme.   For now.

I can live with that.

Can you?

Oh, alright then, just to wrap the matter up.  I never said anybody should trust me.  Who am I that anybody should trust me?  I am just human after all, and fallible.  If you put your unconditional trust in me, it is guaranteed that I will let you down at some point.

Dont trust me, but at least consider the things I say, and look into these things.  That is the most I can ask.

Eh we've all made mistakes, however your Messiah states to take the plank out of your eye before you try and remove the speck out of your brother's eye. That standard basically means this (to me): "Keep your nose in your own damn business, you'll probalby never be good enough to correct someone else so shut up!!!""

i think you're right, there, Bigmac.

I think we (meaning me), are often guilty of pointing out other people's faults as a way of covering up our own failings and making us feel better about ourselves.

Well just a standard no Christian has yet to meet. Cults tend to do that. Just a thought.

I think the Bible is clear on stating that perfection is unattainable.  Am I to understand that cults are the only social orders who proposed idealistic standards?  Come on Big Mac I expect better arguments from you than that.  Or are you just a F.A.G. who mumbles about hybrid cars and coporations?

No, but Cults propose nearly impossible if not downright impossible standards. If you fail you must feel shame and embarrassment for not pleasing your leader. Jesus is a cult figure, he has the classic traits.

1.) He is revered as the son of God or a very very important messenger.

2.) He branches off of a previously established religion that is more or less legitimate at the time.

3.) He is attributed to be all knowing and able to do ANYTHING. He walks on water, cures the blind, casts out demons, etc.

4.) He focuses on the doom of the people instead of how to attain happiness and serenity.

5.) He is persecuted by authorities for his teachings and is eventually killed. Instead of being acknowledged as a criminal (several verse mention buying a sword) he is martyred by his followers.

So yes, by those points, I feel that Christianity is just a cult.

Quote from: "Big Mac"No, but Cults propose nearly impossible if not downright impossible standards. If you fail you must feel shame and embarrassment for not pleasing your leader. Jesus is a cult figure, he has the classic traits.

1.) He is revered as the son of God or a very very important messenger.

2.) He branches off of a previously established religion that is more or less legitimate at the time.

3.) He is attributed to be all knowing and able to do ANYTHING. He walks on water, cures the blind, casts out demons, etc.

4.) He focuses on the doom of the people instead of how to attain happiness and serenity.

5.) He is persecuted by authorities for his teachings and is eventually killed. Instead of being acknowledged as a criminal (several verse mention buying a sword) he is martyred by his followers.

So yes, by those points, I feel that Christianity is just a cult.

Nicely done!

Well, I think it depends on whether you see Jesus as just another historical 'cult' or 'occultic' figure, -  or as something entirely different, and special, which I myself see Him as..- in other words, nothing less than the Son of God manifested in the flesh, and wholly unique.

Many people have tried or attempted to 'water down' the importance of Jesus, such as he is a 'good man', or a 'prophet', or a 'great teacher'.  None of this holds up under scrutiny though, as it's all or nothing in my opinion.  Jesus never described himself as just a great prophet or teacher, but as the Son of God.  If He is not the Son of God, then he is also not a prophet, great teacher, good man, etc, but rather the most 'deluded' of all teachers. He makes some bold and inescapable claims.  Either they are wholly valid, or they are wholly misguided.  I think everyone needs to examine and make their own choice regarding His claims.

Pick your stall and stick with it.

Without getting a bible out and reading everything Jesus said again...didn't he say he was the son of man but never actually claimed to be the son of god?

Laetus, Yes, But I believe that He was speaking in His station as a mortal human at that point.  He also said that He would be restored to the glory with the father that he enjoyed before the foundation of the world.  He also said that 'I and my father are one'.   I think He must have necessarily accepted some limitations as a human, (son of man), experiencing all our difficulties, how else could he have stood in for mankind?

Reference the book of John:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201;&version=31;)

 

I always like to find the answer for myself.  Bible Gateway makes it pretty easy.

mommasquid, time prohibits me from clicking on the link you mention at the moment, but I will surely explore it when I do have time.

Quote from: "Laetusatheos"Without getting a bible out and reading everything Jesus said again...didn't he say he was the son of man but never actually claimed to be the son of god?

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Reference the book of John:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201;&version=31;)

I always like to find the answer for myself.  Bible Gateway makes it pretty easy.

Hope the link helps you,  Laetusatheos.  (There, that's better.)

Quote from: "MommaSquid"

Quote from: "Laetusatheos"Without getting a bible out and reading everything Jesus said again...didn't he say he was the son of man but never actually claimed to be the son of god?

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Reference the book of John:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=31; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201;&version=31;)

I always like to find the answer for myself.  Bible Gateway makes it pretty easy.

Hope the link helps you,  Laetusatheos.  (There, that's better.)

Yes, thanks.

QuoteIf you fail you must feel shame and embarrassment for not pleasing your leader.

Can you give me a quote from Christ where he requires shame and embarassment for not living up to the standard.

It's implied throughout the book.

Romans 3:23 to name one. Don't try to cross-examine me, Tex.