Happy Atheist Forum

ok, you've probably all heard of religion described as a 'crutch' before, but here's what i think and believe, if you're interested (and i admit it is not my own original invention, but i subscribe to it)

i dont see belief in God as a crutch, but rather as a 'stretcher' - let me explain if i can.
a crutch implies that you have at least one good leg to stand on, and only require partial support to get where you're going, whereas we see Jesus as a stretcher, meaning that without Him, we cant even LIMP into heaven.  we dont have a leg to stand on, because we are all utterly sinful without him, and unable to redeem ourselves, so we must rely on Him totally.
so at least we are willing to admit we have sinned.

this is basically the message that God gives in the bible, and He provided a way for our salvation.

And its a free gift.  so why wouldnt you take advantage of that?

after all, you've nothing to lose.

after researching this for a long time, i've found that it actually makes sense, though you won't see that at first glance, probably.  and it makes at least as much sense as believing that one day soon, you will completely cease forever to exist, with all your knowledge, experiences, relatioinships, etc, just completely ended, as though you were never important at all in the first place, whereas our own mind and spirit tell us that we are far more relevent than that, don;t you agree?

or do you truly see all of your lifes experiences, and those of your children, etc, having no deeper meaning whatsoever?

THAT is what i find hard to grasp about your beliefs

please explain

I don't know about having nothing to lose. You lose your freedom. You lose your ability to make your own choices. And what if you're wrong, and it ends up that a completely different god from the one you believe in exists? At least I spent my life using my freedom.

And, you're correct. I don't view my life as having any "deep" meaning, except that which I give it. My life is mine to do with as I will.

I think it's difficult for christians to understand why we want no "deeper" meaning because christianity is such an individualistic religion. All christians should read Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, it portrays pretty realistically an ideal non-individualistic society. The point of all our lives is to help the human race as a whole, to sustain and improve upon it. Our goals should not be limited to our lifetimes, but because of religion and our "me me me" society, they are, and it makes us stagnate as a civilization. True development as a race cannot happen if people are constantly looking for "meaning" in their individual live.

I disagree there Court. There's nothing wrong with exploring the inner workings of what makes you tick. However, people tend not to humble themselves to realize we are nothing in the scheme of everything. Not to say we shouldn't care but we should realize our place as human beings. Believing in a God is somewhat dangerous to me. Almost all violence and genocide and racism and sexism comes from religion. Look at the Taliban's treatment of women! What kind of person treats a lady like that and calls themselves a man? Much less a man of God! Then again, I agree that humans in general are selfish creatures and will spite people in order to right a perceived slight.

I respect that. I don't think that people shouldn't seek fulfillment in their own lives, just a society should have long-term goals that reach beyond the individual. There should be a balance between emphasis on the individual and emphasis on the species. Currently, the scale is tipped far too much toward the individual.
I also agree that religion is a dangerous delusion that leads to the degredation of society. It is a stumbling block on the way to greater civilization.
(Have you ever read Herland? It's a fabulous, fabulous book...)

I totally agree. I remember my church (when I was growing up and forced to go) would constantly bash science and such. Funny, they sure didn't have a problem with medicine, which was hindered by the church because back then you couldn't dissect cadavers for the advancement of medicine. Religion has put nearly 2,000 years of hold on science. Galileo, Da Vinci, Michealango, etc. were always threatened and bullied by the church for making the world a better place to live in.

No I don't believe I've read Herland, I might look it up later when Iget back from work.

onlyme, your metaphor is somewhat interesting but that's as far as its importance goes I think. With the crutch thing, a lot of people see it as an "emotional crutch" to help them cope with losses, implying that these people just have a religion because they can't handle life's harsh realities like death and disease. They see it as mere wishful thinking.

Quote from: "onlyme"ok, you've probably all heard of religion described as a
after researching this for a long time, i've found that it actually makes sense, though you won't see that at first glance, probably.  and it makes at least as much sense as believing that one day soon, you will completely cease forever to exist, with all your knowledge, experiences, relatioinships, etc, just completely ended, as though you were never important at all in the first place, whereas our own mind and spirit tell us that we are far more relevent than that, don;t you agree?

or do you truly see all of your lifes experiences, and those of your children, etc, having no deeper meaning whatsoever?

THAT is what i find hard to grasp about your beliefs

please explain

Yes, the fact that when we die, we're dead and can never think or smile or laugh again is a hard pill to swallow. But wishing for there to be something more does not make it true that there is something more. We choose to face the facts and not to water-down the concept of death with magical thinking. If you knew that you would eventually cease to exist completely, would you live your life a little differently?

There is no deeper meaning but, as Twist said, we have to find our own meaning. Find something that makes you happy and do that. If your goals are wealth, chase that. If you would like more relationships in your life, go make that happen. The choices are in your hands.

Quote from: "Court"I respect that. I don't think that people shouldn't seek fulfillment in their own lives, just a society should have long-term goals that reach beyond the individual. There should be a balance between emphasis on the individual and emphasis on the species. Currently, the scale is tipped far too much toward the individual.

If you mean a suggested balance between the individual and the species then I guess I could support that. Otherwise though, I'm going to have to disagree. I value my freedoms and if I had goals that were not compatible with society's goals, I would seek to fulfill my own. What do you think about a person who, say, walks into the rainforest to live a life of solitude focussed on basic survival skills? Surely, he/she is not contributing anything to the human race as a whole. But is it wrong what they are doing? They are merely exercising their freedoms to live the life they want, to add the meaning to their life that they want.

I would like to help the human race in some way, but when my goals are not in line with what society expects of me, then off to achieving my own goals I go.

I completely see your point of view, Jassman, because I do believe that everyone should have the freedom to do what they want with their lives, as long as it doesn't hinder the freedoms of others.
However, I think that everyone should do something to give back to the society in which they live. The human species cannot develop otherwise. I don't think everyone should go devote their entire lives to the betterment of man (although, some must and voluntarily do so), but every little bit counts. This doesn't mean everyone should become a scientist or a teacher or a construction worker. But how much better do you think our world would be if every person on the globe (who was able) volunteered for only an hour a week?
What I definitely didn't mean was for everyone to conform to society's goals and expectations. If its expectations of mankind are distorted, though, it is the responsibility of the citizens to fix the expectations. If you don't like how the system is treating you, it's your job to do something about it. If you don't, who will?
I also don't mean we should all contribute to the betterment of just the majority, but the whole.
There is something to be said for individual goals, which I do believe everyone should have (and not all should be aligned with society's), but we can't only emphasize that.

Does no one else believe in universal goals and a cooperative society? I honestly didn't think I'd be alone on this one.
I guess I've been reading Civil Disobedience and Utopia novels too often...

Courtney, thanks for elaborating on your original post. I agree that humanity would benefit from more individuals with strongly altruistic motives and interests.

Quote from: "Court"But how much better do you think our world would be if every person on the globe (who was able) volunteered for only an hour a week?

It would certainly help, but the problem with volunteering is the very definition of the word. It has to be voluntary. Once everyone is putting in their hour a week, as soon as a few people decide that they need their free time, they are looked down upon. When this happens, this volunteering of time is no longer voluntary. People feel obliged to do it every single week whether or not they actually want to.

I don't know. Maybe societal pressure on the individual to help out is a good thing? I guess it's purely speculation at this point.

Quote from: "onlyme"ok, you've probably all heard of religion described as a 'crutch' before, but here's what i think and believe, if you're interested (and i admit it is not my own original invention, but i subscribe to it)

i dont see belief in God as a crutch, but rather as a 'stretcher' - let me explain if i can.
a crutch implies that you have at least one good leg to stand on, and only require partial support to get where you're going, whereas we see Jesus as a stretcher, meaning that without Him, we cant even LIMP into heaven.  we dont have a leg to stand on, because we are all utterly sinful without him, and unable to redeem ourselves, so we must rely on Him totally.
so at least we are willing to admit we have sinned.

this is basically the message that God gives in the bible, and He provided a way for our salvation.

If the typical use of religion as a crutch was reffering to salvation...then yes, a streatcher would be a beter analogy.  When non-religious people refer to religion as being a crutch they mean an emotional crutch...something to lean on during rough times yet not really necessary if the religious would find other means of healing that limp religions temporarily brace up.  So, that's what it is usually meaning.

It seems to me that most believe in a religion because they were raised that way...it's just how life is for them.  With that sort of person I'm not sure if the crutch analogy applies.  I guess it would depend on how they viewed religion and how they used it.

But, and sorry to use you as an example...but in my view it seems to apply.  You are really afraid of death.  Religion allows you to escape from this fear by believing in heaven and that through accepting god you will be going there instead of just dying.  So, in your case, religioin is a crutch to help you get over a fear of death...but you actually don't get over it...religion just allows you to hobble over that fear by seeing visions of heaven when you think of your future death.

QuoteAnd its a free gift.  so why wouldnt you take advantage of that?

Well, because I don't believe it is true.  I think some of my responses in other threads explained why.

Quoteafter all, you've nothing to lose.

I highly value the truth...and I don't view religion as the truth.  So I'd have my self-respect to loose.

Quoteafter researching this for a long time, i've found that it actually makes sense, though you won't see that at first glance, probably.  and it makes at least as much sense as believing that one day soon, you will completely cease forever to exist, with all your knowledge, experiences, relatioinships, etc, just completely ended, as though you were never important at all in the first place, whereas our own mind and spirit tell us that we are far more relevent than that, don;t you agree?

Society tells us that humans are better, special, something more than an intelligent animal...I don't think 'mother culture' is right.   In a way, we do live on in 'spirit' through the memories of our loved ones and other effects our lives had on society.

Quoteor do you truly see all of your lifes experiences, and those of your children, etc, having no deeper meaning whatsoever?

I wouldn't say there is no deeper meaning.  I just don't think there is a reason to look towards the heavens to see the deeper meaning.  Humans are social beings, anything we do in our lives has small to deep effects on society.  I'm a humanist, so doing good for society has deep meaning to me.  Someone else may find deep meaning elsewhere...maybe working to protect wildlife or something like that.

Quote from: "Jassman"Courtney, thanks for elaborating on your original post. I agree that humanity would benefit from more individuals with strongly altruistic motives and interests.

Quote from: "Court"But how much better do you think our world would be if every person on the globe (who was able) volunteered for only an hour a week?

It would certainly help, but the problem with volunteering is the very definition of the word. It has to be voluntary. Once everyone is putting in their hour a week, as soon as a few people decide that they need their free time, they are looked down upon. When this happens, this volunteering of time is no longer voluntary. People feel obliged to do it every single week whether or not they actually want to.

I don't know. Maybe societal pressure on the individual to help out is a good thing? I guess it's purely speculation at this point.

That's a good point and I never thought about it. I don't really believe that purely altruistic acts ever happen, to be honest, so it may be good to have a bit of societal pressure to help out. I'm not sure, really. *shrug*

court, you wrote
Does no one else believe in universal goals and a cooperative society? I honestly didn't think I'd be alone on this one.
I guess I've been reading Civil Disobedience and Utopia novels too often..

yes, i do, but i also think its a spiritual (whatever that means) problem, as well as a socialogical or other issue.  i think the world is being lulled into a massive, and massively dangerous deception, something we christians have been saying for a long time, for example, the emergence of the new world order, which i honestly believe is designed to totally enslave humanity.  it will soon be time to wake up and smell the coffee, in my opinion.  there is a lot more at stake than people realise.   people are starting to wake up gradually and see something on the horizon.  they just dont know what yet.  in order for us to survive, we have to get together and pool our resources and intellect, so to speak, because we have a common enemy, far more dangerous and insidious than people are as yet willing to acknowledge.  we are all at risk.

onlyme, do you honestly think that world conditions and human quality of life is getting worse? Every century, humans have had a better quality of life as a whole with each passing century. Disgusting torture methods have severely diminished and more people have food now than ever before. Technology is automating repetitive and injury causing jobs and humans are living longer on average now than in the past.

We are improving. Maybe slower than I would like, but things are actually getting better.

jassman, i think we are deluded to think human qualities are improving on history.  hitler did what he did in our parents generation.  look at the barbarity being carried out in iraq. gun crime, violence, robberies, fear all seem to be increasing, security diminishing.  technology i think will prove to be a slave monster eventually rather than a saviour.  ok, we have more money, but we are not more civilized, as a brief study of cambodia, nangking, vietnam and others will show in a truly HORRIFYING fashion.  no, as i said before, i think (and im not alone) that we are being lulled into a false sense of security.

jassman, to add to the above points, are we more civilized now than in the past, when people are afraid to leave their homes, children are killing children with knives and guns, the threat of terrorism and even nuclear war are looming on the horizon (man has historically used every weapon he invented), we have aids, natural disasters, famines -60,000 children, not adults, just children will die of hunger while you are in bed tonight (8 hours) -another 120.000 before the full day of 24 hours is up (W.H.O official figures) - not counting those that die of violence, disease, etc.  people are generally more selfish with all their wealth,

i could go on....

Quote from: "onlyme"jassman, i think we are deluded to think human qualities are improving on history.

Please read and review these torture devices that were supposedly used in the past on heretics:

jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm (http://jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm)

If this is true, then it is extremely obvious that humans are getting better. Some of the things on that page are the most disgusting things imaginable. I can't believe anyone could do that to another human being. I'm going to look further into the things described on this page to verify their truth.

Here are a couple of other pages I have found with more information:

Please view the following at your own discretion.

http://www.vaginalpear.com/ (http://www.vaginalpear.com/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_cradle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_cradle)

How can anyone do something like this? Especially given the fact that it was a torture prescribed because of a difference in opinion, not necessarily a crime...

Quote from: "onlyme"people are generally more selfish with all their wealth,

Huh?

gatesfoundation.com (http://www.gatesfoundation.com/default.htm)

I agree with Jassman...I mean, people used to watch cat-burnings in ancient Europe as entertainment. And christianity is not the answer, that's for sure. The bible calls for the stoning of non-believers, gay, and kids who smart off to their parents. Honestly.

The intolerance and flat-out bigotry of religion (I'm emphasizing christianity and islam, as some religions are not this way) is a stumbling block in our development of a more cooperative society.

Quote from: "onlyme"jassman, to add to the above points, are we more civilized now than in the past, when people are afraid to leave their homes, children are killing children with knives and guns, the threat of terrorism and even nuclear war are looming on the horizon (man has historically used every weapon he invented), we have aids, natural disasters, famines -60,000 children, not adults, just children will die of hunger while you are in bed tonight (8 hours) -another 120.000 before the full day of 24 hours is up (W.H.O official figures) - not counting those that die of violence, disease, etc.  people are generally more selfish with all their wealth,

i could go on....

Please go on...tell us how Christianity has helped this situation over the past 2000 years. You can skip the parts about the Crusades, the Inquisition, Holy Wars, etc.

McQ, i think you're right in a lot of points you make above, these were mostly shameful episodes carried out supposedly in the name of God.  I admit there are things i cant understand, but i maintain that for me personally as i understand it, God is a God of love, and doesnt give us the right to do such things.  i think we should leave the judging, condemning and killing to Him, not ourselves.   i think if people lived as with the understanding that God is love, society WOULD improve.  its certainly not improved with the gradual abandonment of God either though, has it? - since peope dont seem to have much of a moral compass, or believe they are answerable to God.  

i dont understand or agree with all the killings or cruelty. i truly think that the majority simply dont understand.

onlyme, after the links I posted, do you still believe that world conditions are getting worse?

Quote from: "onlyme"i think we should leave the judging, condemning and killing to Him, not ourselves.

Why does he need to kill? If God is love, and God is omniscient and omnipotent, then surely the most just, merciful, and efficient method is just not to create the bad people to begin with. Why create someone if that action is ultimately going to make them suffer forever? If God is love, how can he do that?

Quote from: "onlyme"McQ, i think you're right in a lot of points you make above, these were mostly shameful episodes carried out supposedly in the name of God.  I admit there are things i cant understand, but i maintain that for me personally as i understand it, God is a God of love, and doesnt give us the right to do such things.  i think we should leave the judging, condemning and killing to Him, not ourselves.   i think if people lived as with the understanding that God is love, society WOULD improve.  its certainly not improved with the gradual abandonment of God either though, has it? - since peope dont seem to have much of a moral compass, or believe they are answerable to God.  

i dont understand or agree with all the killings or cruelty. i truly think that the majority simply dont understand.

Onlyme, I hear you, but you have to understand that these aren't just things in some history book that we just read about. People, just like you and me, lived these events. The atrocities that were committed were done by men who claimed that God himself directed them to carry them out. They "heard his voice" and talked to him. We want to whitewash everything today and can, because these events happened so long ago. No one is left now that participated in the crusades. But had you lived then, you would have been part of the problem, saying, "Yes, it's God's will. Charlemagne wouldn't lie about a thing like this."

That's why I think it's imperitive that people study everything they can. Christianity isn't the only, or even the oldest religion out there. It isn't even the most sensible from a creation standpoint.

McQ, excellent post. It's so easy to look at these events the same way we look at statistics. Just some numbers or words on a page. But these things do stand for real occurrences that happened to real people. It is so hard for the mind to comprehend how such a large group of people could agree on such a level of despise and hate.

the point im making about leaving judgement to God is that after all He IS God (i believe it anyway), and we as humans are missing a lot of the answers, for example, we have no control over our birth, or over our departure, which are two of the most important things that will happen to any of us, so we should realise that some things are out of our control or jurisdiction, and not discount the possibility of God altogether, cos that would be just arrogant for someone like us mortal and very limited men.

theres just so much we dont know for sure, we shouldnt presume to pass judgement on the whole of our existence, the universe, God, life, etc, as though we know it all.

by the way, i wouldnt agree with charlemagne.  i wouldnt kill anybody unless God Himself appeared to me and ORDERED me to do so, even then im not sure how i'd actually feel about it personally, i just dont know.

the thing i'm saying in essence is that i DONT have all the answers, and BECAUSE i dont, and because i realise i dont, i'm not in a position to stand and denounce God, His existence, His ways, etc

i just realise and admit i have great limitations regarding my knowledge of these things.  i couldnt presume to think that just my own rules would suffice (well, maybe i could, but i could come unstuck doing that!)

I agree with Karl Marx that religion is a crutch, and with Nietzsche who described it as a symptom of resentiment (a tool of control for the otherwise weak).

Quote from: "onlyme"the point im making about leaving judgement to God is that after all He IS God (i believe it anyway), and we as humans are missing a lot of the answers, for example, we have no control over our birth, or over our departure, which are two of the most important things that will happen to any of us, so we should realise that some things are out of our control or jurisdiction, and not discount the possibility of God altogether, cos that would be just arrogant for someone like us mortal and very limited men.

In that case...it would also be arrogant to completely discount the possible  existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns...after all, we are just simple humans.

(just trying to illustrate a point)

Quote from: "onlyme"i wouldnt kill anybody unless God Himself appeared to me and ORDERED me to do so, even then im not sure how i'd actually feel about it personally, i just dont know.

If your all knowing god of love were to command you to kill someone you would do it?!    That's sad and wrong.  

Try using that defense in court.   Gee, I didn't want to commit murder, but god told me to do it!   :roll:

I feel safe in saying I wouldn't kill anybody no matter what god ordered me to do it. I don't take orders.

Quote from: "MommaSquid"

Quote from: "onlyme"i wouldnt kill anybody unless God Himself appeared to me and ORDERED me to do so, even then im not sure how i'd actually feel about it personally, i just dont know.

If your all knowing god of love were to command you to kill someone you would do it?!    That's sad and wrong.  

Try using that defense in court.   Gee, I didn't want to commit murder, but god told me to do it!   :roll:

God told me to eat an entire package of Cadbury eggs! Can't argue with the lord!

firstly, JASSMAN, 'why does he need to kill'

as far as 'need to kill' is concerned, i dont know, all i know is that death is a fact, people die, good people, bad people. this is the point i was trying to make when i said that we should be humble regarding things we dont fully know about.

 now, TWISTOFCAIN, this is not meant as a personal attack of any kind, believe me, but your signiture about not being humbled by God or man,

we all have been humbled, and all will, at some point, i believe

there is always someone bigger than you out there, best not to get too 'arrogant' i think.  i speak more for myself than anybody else, so dont take this the wrong way,  remember the phrase 'pride comes before a fall'?

no harm intended, mate, just trying to give some (hopefully) useful advice, gleaned from my years on this planet

Quote from: "onlyme"now, TWISTOFCAIN, this is not meant as a personal attack of any kind, believe me, but your signiture about not being humbled by God or man,

we all have been humbled, and all will, at some point, i believe

there is always someone bigger than you out there, best not to get too 'arrogant' i think.  i speak more for myself than anybody else, so dont take this the wrong way,  remember the phrase 'pride comes before a fall'?

no harm intended, mate, just trying to give some (hopefully) useful advice, gleaned from my years on this planet

Umm, is it just me, or is he taking that signature a teensy bit too seriously?

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "onlyme"now, TWISTOFCAIN, this is not meant as a personal attack of any kind, believe me, but your signiture about not being humbled by God or man,

we all have been humbled, and all will, at some point, i believe

there is always someone bigger than you out there, best not to get too 'arrogant' i think.  i speak more for myself than anybody else, so dont take this the wrong way,  remember the phrase 'pride comes before a fall'?

no harm intended, mate, just trying to give some (hopefully) useful advice, gleaned from my years on this planet

Umm, is it just me, or is he taking that signature a teensy bit too seriously?

Is who taking what signature too seriously, Court?

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "onlyme"now, TWISTOFCAIN, this is not meant as a personal attack of any kind, believe me, but your signiture about not being humbled by God or man,

we all have been humbled, and all will, at some point, i believe

there is always someone bigger than you out there, best not to get too 'arrogant' i think.  i speak more for myself than anybody else, so dont take this the wrong way,  remember the phrase 'pride comes before a fall'?

no harm intended, mate, just trying to give some (hopefully) useful advice, gleaned from my years on this planet

Umm, is it just me, or is he taking that signature a teensy bit too seriously?

You think? That's why I don't like dating Religious chicks, they're so damn uptight and don't get jokes. Not to mention they complain too much about drinking and smoking and sex.......a real downer.

i stand corrected.  really, though, i dont mean to offend Twist, its just that I wouldnt use a signature like that myself.  i try to think of how i myself would operate, thats all.  i'm not so confident that i couldn't be humbled by man or God.  i get your point, though, about maybe taking it too seriously.  (its the signature of Twistofcain, by the way, McQ.)

by the way, Twist, i remember reading about Thoth a number of years ago.  is it true, as i remember, that you pronounce it te-hooti, and not how its written?

On the pronunciation: I'm not referring to the Egyptian god, but rather the wizard Thoth-Amon from R. E. Howard's Conan stories. So, it may be pronounced like it's written, or the other way. I prefer saying it how it's written; it's more authoritative-sounding.

Also, my ultimate objective in life is exactly what Thoth says: to achieve a level of being where no man can humble me. Ambitious? Yes. I already don't let gods humble me, so I'm halfway done.

ah, thanks for clarifying that, Twist.  

by the way, peeps, if any of you think that i have 'cut and run' from time to time, the reason that there are usually a few days between my bouts on line is that i work away from home, usually for a few days at a time, sometimes a couple of weeks, so i will try to get back to answer any of your postings whenever i get back.

i think that most of the atrocities were carried out by both the catholic church and the templar knights.  i certainly dont agree with them.  as a christian, how can you help people if you kill them?  you are just consigning them to hell, with no chance to repent.  no, as the bible says, God is not willing for anybody to perish, but for all to come to repentence.  that is my belief.

amor fati

this reminds me of a piece of graffiti i read about a few years ago that said

'God is dead' - nietzsche

and a few years later, underneath, was written:

'nietzsche is dead' - God

in my opinion, as i believe we will all see and realise, we are human, mortal, and God will outlive us all

To clarify the Nietzsche quote.  Nietzsche didn't litterally mean that god had died.

It makes me sad that you had to clarify that, Laetus. I would think it painfully obvious, but I was wrong.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"To clarify the Nietzsche quote.  Nietzsche didn't litterally mean that god had died.

Wait....you mean he's still alive?
 :lol:

I was trying to show the fun side of the graffiti

But (and I know I'm showing my ignorance here), what did he mean by it exactly.  

OK....OK!  I throw up my hands and admit I've not read much about Nietzsche, never felt the urge, actually.....just heard of him in passing a few years ago when reading general stuff on this subject, most of which i've forgotten.

ps....what did he mean?

Quote from: "onlyme"this reminds me of a piece of graffiti i read about a few years ago that said

'God is dead' - nietzsche

and a few years later, underneath, was written:

'nietzsche is dead' - God

I find that quite funny actually. I guess, really, they're both dead.

Quote from: "onlyme"ps....what did he mean?

Here's the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead)