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My Old Pals at One Million Moms are Offended Again!

Started by Ali, May 30, 2012, 09:10:29 PM

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Sandra Craft

#30
Quote from: Ali
Last time I heard something about OMM, they were protesting Ben & Jerry's "Schweddy Balls" ice cream.

"Available in both pints and Scoop Shops, this flavor is Fair Trade vanilla ice cream with a hint of rum and is loaded with fudge covered rum and milk chocolate malt balls."

Anybody who objects to that is truly mad.


Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Crow on May 31, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
Point taken but thats not what I have an issue with as I completely agree thats if looking for advice its better to go to the one with experience. My main problem is with mothers (I only say mothers as i have yet to hear a father do this yet and obviously isn't all mothers) who use there motherhood as a way to try and add importance to a social issues that don't really have anything to do with being a child bearer. Take how one million moms got "Jesus Dress Up" pulled from Urban Outfitters, Urban Outfitters don't even sell children's clothes.

(PS - Oh wait a sec there is a one million dads organization, changed from mums to parents.)


Some, (not all), mothers think popping a ;ic out their vagina automatically makes them better than people (like myself) who choose not to  have children.


Everyone can have an opinion, i guess...

Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on June 01, 2012, 02:37:12 AM
Quote from: Ali
Last time I heard something about OMM, they were protesting Ben & Jerry's "Schweddy Balls" ice cream.

"Available in both pints and Scoop Shops, this flavor is Fair Trade vanilla ice cream with a hint of rum and is loaded with fudge covered rum and milk chocolate malt balls."

Anybody tho objects to that is truly mad.





Seriously  :<
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Traveler

I can see how a parent might be more knowledgeable about some things than I. But I was a child. I was parented. And there are some things that I have very strong opinions on based on the parenting that was done to me. For instance, I was never spanked. I turned out just fine. Many of my cousins on one side of my family were all spanked. They all are so messed up it hurts to think about it. So I feel very confident in my support for folks who don't spank. If a parent were to tell me that spanking was ok, I would feel very confident in argueing against them. My experience as a former-child doesn't back them up.

Just wanted to share that having been a child does have some weight in some discussions about parenting. :)

Carry on ...
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

En_Route

Quote from: Traveler on June 01, 2012, 03:39:26 PM
I can see how a parent might be more knowledgeable about some things than I. But I was a child. I was parented. And there are some things that I have very strong opinions on based on the parenting that was done to me. For instance, I was never spanked. I turned out just fine. Many of my cousins on one side of my family were all spanked. They all are so messed up it hurts to think about it. So I feel very confident in my support for folks who don't spank. If a parent were to tell me that spanking was ok, I would feel very confident in argueing against them. My experience as a former-child doesn't back them up.

Just wanted to share that having been a child does have some weight in some discussions about parenting. :)

Carry on ...


With respect, your personal experiences as a child don't really prove anything in terms of the spanking controversy, no more than that of parents who have decided for and against smoking. At the end of the day, these are issues where we have to turn to objective evidence to really have a sensible discussion. Of course, that doesn't mean that there is a sufficient body of reliable evidence at hand nor does it mean that such evidence is not capable of yielding more than one potential inference. Personally, being a pacific sort of chap, I never relished the notion of inflicting physical  pain on my kids.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

Ali

Quote from: En_Route on June 01, 2012, 03:52:57 PM
Quote from: Traveler on June 01, 2012, 03:39:26 PM
I can see how a parent might be more knowledgeable about some things than I. But I was a child. I was parented. And there are some things that I have very strong opinions on based on the parenting that was done to me. For instance, I was never spanked. I turned out just fine. Many of my cousins on one side of my family were all spanked. They all are so messed up it hurts to think about it. So I feel very confident in my support for folks who don't spank. If a parent were to tell me that spanking was ok, I would feel very confident in argueing against them. My experience as a former-child doesn't back them up.

Just wanted to share that having been a child does have some weight in some discussions about parenting. :)

Carry on ...


With respect, your personal experiences as a child don't really prove anything in terms of the spanking controversy, no more than that of parents who have decided for and against smoking. At the end of the day, these are issues where we have to turn to objective evidence to really have a sensible discussion. Of course, that doesn't mean that there is a sufficient body of reliable evidence at hand nor does it mean that such evidence is not capable of yielding more than one potential inference. Personally, being a pacific sort of chap, I never relished the notion of inflicting physical  pain on my kids.

Yeah agreed.  I will say that I was spanked as a kid (and honestly didn't give whether or not I would spank a lot of thought until I was about to become a parent.)  If I had never become a parent, never done a little research on the subject, and never had a child looking at me with those big sweet eyes that I was contemplating hitting, I probably would be of the opinion that spanking is just fine since my personal experience is that both my brother and I were spanked and we both grew up to be relatively sane and productive members of society.  Nor do I harbor any ill will towards my parents for the spanking.  They never went overboard, I always knew that I was loved, et cetera et cetera et cetera.  My personal refusal to spank has little to do with my upbringing, and more to do with the fact that a) current parent-think seems to indicate that it is relatively ineffective, b) it seems unnecessary to me, I've never had to resort to hitting to get T's attention, and c) spanking makes very little sense to me.  Like, you're not allowed to hit your employees or your husband or the lady who cut you off in traffic, not even "to teach them a lesson."  So why are you allowed (and even somewhat expected!) to hit your kids?  Because you're bigger than them?  Smarter?  Older?  In a position of authority over?  Those reasons would never stand up if they were anyone other than your kids, so why are kids the only exception?  I honestly don't get it.  And d) it's not in my nature to hit anyone.  I can't even bring myself to (lightly) spank the dog, and she drives me nuts. 

Hector Valdez

I'm afraid that I'm not quite horny enough to tap that. :(

Traveler

No, my experiences as a child aren't enough for someone else to totally make a decisionon child-rearing. But when my experiences as a child are backed up by evidence, as my opinion on spanking is, then I feel quite confident in sharing those experiences as an example. We recently had a huge, pages-long discussion on spanking on another atheist board. It got quite heated at times, but the evidence seemed to all support non-violence, non-spanking as a healthier way to raise children.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Ali on June 01, 2012, 05:38:09 PM
c) spanking makes very little sense to me.  Like, you're not allowed to hit your employees or your husband or the lady who cut you off in traffic, not even "to teach them a lesson."  So why are you allowed (and even somewhat expected!) to hit your kids?  Because you're bigger than them?  Smarter?  Older?  In a position of authority over?  Those reasons would never stand up if they were anyone other than your kids, so why are kids the only exception?  I honestly don't get it. 

I believe the thinking here is that altho you can reason with adults, you can't use logic or reason with a young child, but they can understand physical punishment.  A young child may remember a swat that keeps them away from something dangerous long after they've forgotten a "don't do that again".

The problem is that some adults don't know when to stop, or know the difference between a swat that's more startling than painful and a beating that leaves damage behind.   
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

OldGit

#39
Quote from: BooksCatsEtcI believe the thinking here is that altho you can reason with adults, you can't use logic or reason with a young child, but they can understand physical punishment.  A young child may remember a swat that keeps them away from something dangerous long after they've forgotten a "don't do that again".

This is what we thought.  It's a dangerous world for a toddler, and you need to be able to make the little blighter stop instantly.

When ours were little, the woman next door couldn't stop her son running out into the road between parked cars.  It was a great game to him; luckily he never got run over.  She used to tell us how lucky we were that ours were well-behaved.  In the end I told her, gently, that there was no luck in it - it was discipline.  "Oh! But aren't you afraid of stifling their individuality?"

Ali

That's (one of the reasons) why I don't really get down on my friend that spanks.  I realize that discipline is important, and that there isn't a one size fits all answer for kids; they're all so different that what works for one may not work for another.  My friend's son doesn't respond to other forms of discipline, just doesn't seem care about the other tactics they have tried, which is why they spank.  It's really the only thing that gets his attention.  T has a different sort of temperament.  I wouldn't say that he could be "reasoned with" especially as a toddler, but he was and is very eager to please, so that was easy to use to get him to do what we wanted.  When he did need some form of discipline, he acts like time outs and being sent to his room are the very worst things that could happen to a kid, and he remembers it later, so that has been effective enough.

Discipline is definitely important; especially from a safety point of view.  I just don't think that (depending on the kid) spanking is the only form of discipline that "takes"; even for a toddler. 

OldGit

Quote from: AliI just don't think that (depending on the kid) spanking is the only form of discipline that "takes"; even for a toddler.

Maybe not - I have only my own experience to go on, so I can't argue.  I know that my grandson wasn't smacked, and his parents had a lot of problems which we thought could have been avoided by the occasional smack.  Not that we ever said so.

Ali

Quote from: OldGit on June 05, 2012, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: AliI just don't think that (depending on the kid) spanking is the only form of discipline that "takes"; even for a toddler.

Maybe not - I have only my own experience to go on, so I can't argue.  I know that my grandson wasn't smacked, and his parents had a lot of problems which we thought could have been avoided by the occasional smack.  Not that we ever said so.

Hahahaha, my parents totally have to bite their tongues when the topic of disciplining T has come up.  They've never said either, but I know that internally they are totally rolling their eyes.   ;D

DeterminedJuliet

Ah, yes. We're just getting to the age where disciplining our little guy is becoming a thing. I don't imagine that we'll ever need to swat/spank our guy. As it is, whenever we give him time-out he comes back in sobs with his little arms out-stretched and a "I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again" expression. He's usually a pretty good listener, too. When we say "don't touch that" or "give that here", he listens 9 times out of 10, so I just don't feel like it's necessary to take it to the "next level", as it were. 

My sister, on the other hand, she has a daughter the same age as our boy and she's devilish! When I was home a few weeks ago she'd get into something and if you told her to stop she'd just look up at you, grin the most devilish grin, and keep right on doing it. She is definitely a more "push the boundaries" kid than our guy.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Ali

Yeah, T was/is (usually) a pretty good listener and (usually) does what we ask without a lot of drama, so we've never been inclined to up the ante.  He's a sensitive little guy that can't stand to think that anyone is "mad at him" (in fact, I think that will be a separate issue that we have to work on as he grows up, learning to stand up for himself and not "people-please" simply to avoid having people be mad at him.) Point being, every kid has their own challenges and personalities, and some of them respond better to different styles of parenting and discipline.

BCE - thinking about what you said about not being able to reason with toddlers, that still doesn't sound like an okay excuse.  If I was caring for an elderly person with Alzheimer's that was too confused to be reasoned with, would it be acceptable for me to start hitting them to get them to do what I say?  Probably not.  That's what saying when I say that I don't understand the social mores behind spanking.  If it was anyone other than kids, the onus would be on me to find a better way of getting my point across or find someone to help me if I couldn't, rather than resort to getting physical, right?  But when it comes to kids, for some reason, it's okay.  And I do get that society says it's okay, and that lots of kids get spanked and they are just fine and don't seem to be any worse for the wear and actually benefit from it as opposed to if the alternative was no discipline at all.  Like I said, I was spanked, and I don't hold it against my parents and I'm as normal as anyone I suppose.  But some corner of my psyche honestly cannot wrap itself around the exception of physically hitting kids.  I'm not kidding when I say that I don't get it.  My brain literally does not understand it.  I'm not being cute, it literally does not compute.  In the spirit of full disclosure, my therapist tells me I have a habit of thinking too much in absolutes.  This is most likely an example of that.