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General => Politics => Topic started by: Sandra Craft on February 05, 2019, 08:42:06 PM

Title: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 05, 2019, 08:42:06 PM
I am really having a problem with this, and am probably about to get into trouble on FB because of it.

For anyone who hasn't been following it, Northam is the Governor of Virginia who, at the age of 25, posed in blackface with another student dressed as a Klansman during some medical school party, and this picture ended up in the year book.  The picture has somehow escaped notice until now, when it's causing a general call for Northam's resignation.

Anderson Cooper on the Northam controversy (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/02/05/ralph-northam-blackface-controversy-anderson-cooper-kth-sot-ac360-vpx.cnn)

I will grant right up front that, after a good start with an apology, Northam has been handling this very, very badly.  However, I looked up his voting record and he seems to me to have been a solid and consistent supporter of equality and civil rights in his career as a public servant.

Northam voting record per VoteSmart (https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/90253/ralph-northam#.XFnyTdQwjDc)

I cannot see the point in Northam resigning over a stupid act from 35 yrs ago when his voting record indicates that this is not an ongoing defect in his character, nor has it influenced his politics.  To me, this is just another example of liberals eating their own. 
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Tank on February 05, 2019, 08:47:08 PM
Most interesting.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Dark Lightning on February 06, 2019, 02:18:28 AM
I really hate to quote the buy-bull, but "Let he who is without sin..., etc." People are reacting in the moment about something that happened so many years ago. It's kind of a sad commentary on the power of the few, via the internet. The chump can walk around talking about "grabbing women by the pussy" and the same people who are castigating Northam let that crap slide. Too damned many children in adult's bodies for the country's good.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 06, 2019, 03:46:42 AM
What I can't get over is the idea that a stupid, thoughtless thing he did decades ago as a medical student is more important and meaningful than all the good he's done protecting minority rights since then as a politician.   Or the idea that carrying on in blackface, distasteful as it is both now and in 1984, is equivalent to an actual crime like rape. 

Northam certainly deserves to be embarrassed by this incident from his past, and it's inevitable that he'll lose votes in the future over it, but to destroy the career of an effective, liberal politician is such an extreme and self-destructive over-reaction.  We're doing nothing but shooting ourselves in the foot over this, and the Republicans are walking off laughing.


Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Icarus on February 06, 2019, 04:53:30 AM
I heartily agree that a dumb assed youthful stunt from 35 years ago is not grounds for his being sacked.

I have been a southern white male for a long time and I confess that I was also somehow insulated from common decency as regards racial issues.  Of course that was long before the Governor was even the twinkle in his fathers eye. 
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Anne D. on February 07, 2019, 04:41:58 AM
But he couldn't just man up and really apologize. He apologized and took responsibility on the Friday right after the story came out. Had he left it there, I'd totally agree with you, Sandra.

But then he tried to weasel out of his responsibility later in the weekend, saying he didn't think it was him in the photo (dude, if you had any doubt, there's a problem). Then he gave that horrible press conference in which he brought up another instance of wearing blackface from his past to dress up as Michael Jackson, made a joke about the difficult of getting shoe polish off his face, and then seriously considered doing the moonwalk (his wife had to tell him that would be inappropriate). Talk about horrible judgment.

It was the Brett Kavanaugh hearing all over again. I'm willing to let a public official move on after a genuine apology that seems to have some reckoning behind it. But that was nowhere to be seen.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 10:01:27 AM
I don't think that he should have apologized for something he did at a different time, in a specific context, which was not considered a wrongdoing in that time and context. An apology without remorse is that much wasted breath, and why would he feel remorse over that?

He wouldn't have done it today. Times are different, and in many ways, he probably is too. End of story. Or is it..?


Quote from: Anne D. on February 07, 2019, 04:41:58 AM
But then he tried to weasel out of his responsibility later in the weekend, saying he didn't think it was him in the photo (dude, if you had any doubt, there's a problem).
What responsibility? Oh, I agree that this was poorly handled, but what was the responsibility, which he had in any meaningful way, that he tried to weasel out of? The responsibility of being an honest politician? Is there such a creature?

QuoteThen he gave that horrible press conference in which he brought up another instance of wearing blackface from his past to dress up as Michael Jackson, made a joke about the difficult of getting shoe polish off his face, and then seriously considered doing the moonwalk (his wife had to tell him that would be inappropriate). Talk about horrible judgment.
Perhaps, but should you ignore pandering to parts of his base (which is a good and valid reason for doing Things in politics - not saying it isn't) it was still a thing of different time and specific context therein, was it not? Can you retroactively change the cultural significance of something without some spectacular dishonesty? If using an electric toothbrush is percieved to be racist in twenty years, does me having used one five years ago make me a future racist? (Yes, yes, I know. Feel free to swap muh toothbrush for anything else acceptable by today's standards, though)

QuoteIt was the Brett Kavanaugh hearing all over again. I'm willing to let a public official move on after a genuine apology that seems to have some reckoning behind it. But that was nowhere to be seen.
I actually sort-of agree with you there, though I suspect that it may be for completely different reasons.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 07, 2019, 12:23:35 PM
What the fork are we doing posting here, we know nothing of USA race relations.

That's what qualifies us, our ignorance dispassion.

35 years ago? probably a US person should have known black face wasn't the done thing.
Did he mean disrespect, what was he doing back then? besides the the blackface partying.
The Michael Jackson thing could of been homage.
But maybe there never was no MJ, it's just a poli's wiley ways, spin.

Sandy has said he has been a nice fellow since.

We've added nothing to this thread.

No not nothing, nuance, we added nuance.
:foottap:
Ye, OK, we added nothing.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 12:52:30 PM
I think we didn't add that much to this thread because no-one who has posted up until this point disagrees with Sandra's conclusion strongly enough to post a comprehensive rebuttal. Whether that lack of disagreement stems from positive agreement, ignorance or simply not caring, the end result is the same.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 07, 2019, 01:49:42 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 12:52:30 PM
I think we didn't add that much to this thread because no-one who has posted up until this point disagrees with Sandra's conclusion strongly enough to post a comprehensive rebuttal. Whether that lack of disagreement stems from positive agreement, ignorance or simply not caring, the end result is the same.

When I said we I meant me and green me.

I think the black face stuff is passe, its decades gone.

An Orange person objecting to dark hued footballers doing a subtle gesture in support of "black lives matter" is current.

I like this one

(https://i.imgur.com/0RrcZbw.jpg)

Of course our hero suffered ostracism from the shallow drafted punts that ran the show.

I like that, shallow drafted punts.

Ye well, we can't use cunt any more 'cause we like them and it wouldn't be right.
But shallow drafted punts, they're ripe for abuse, the stupid boats they are.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
 :lol:

Ok, a self-proclaimed Culcha Warrioh ought not ask, but what is said to be going on in that photo? Because I see two guys going "Yay, I'm a winner!" and one guy being all "meh" about his... Silver? Bronze? Silver, I think.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 07, 2019, 02:31:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
:lol:

Ok, a self-proclaimed Culcha Warrioh ought not ask, but what is said to be going on in that photo? Because I see two guys going "Yay, I'm a winner!" and one guy being all "meh" about his... Silver? Bronze? Silver, I think.

It's the 1968 Mexico Olympics and black chaps had unresolved issues.
Our guy wanted to be supportive but the raised fist was theirs, not culturally appropriate for him to adopt.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: jumbojak on February 07, 2019, 03:34:06 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
:lol:

Ok, a self-proclaimed Culcha Warrioh ought not ask, but what is said to be going on in that photo? Because I see two guys going "Yay, I'm a winner!" and one guy being all "meh" about his... Silver? Bronze? Silver, I think.

The raised fist is typically a symbol of the left but in this case was associated with the Black Power movement. That Australian fellow fared much, much worse than they did.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 08, 2019, 12:20:31 AM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 07, 2019, 04:41:58 AM
But he couldn't just man up and really apologize. He apologized and took responsibility on the Friday right after the story came out. Had he left it there, I'd totally agree with you, Sandra.

I agree he should have stopped after the initial apology.  I suspect spin doctors got to him and were responsible for the later stuff -- spin doctors screw up everything.


QuoteIt was the Brett Kavanaugh hearing all over again. I'm willing to let a public official move on after a genuine apology that seems to have some reckoning behind it. But that was nowhere to be seen.

I disagree that this is like the Kavanaugh hearing -- Kavanaugh was accused of an actual crime, way past the date when reporting it would have meant something, but still a crime.  Northam is guilty of acts of stupidity, thoughtlessness and bad taste, however common a part of his culture they were (and frankly, often still are).  They were a poor reflection of his character -- 35 yrs ago.  A reflection of his character now, as a politician, can be seen in his voting record, which is good over all and excellent in promoting and protecting civil rights.

This gets down to the nub of it for me -- how can an on-going excellent civil rights record weigh less in the balance than stupid acts from decades in the past?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 08, 2019, 12:30:53 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on February 07, 2019, 03:34:06 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
:lol:

Ok, a self-proclaimed Culcha Warrioh ought not ask, but what is said to be going on in that photo? Because I see two guys going "Yay, I'm a winner!" and one guy being all "meh" about his... Silver? Bronze? Silver, I think.

The raised fist is typically a symbol of the left but in this case was associated with the Black Power movement. That Australian fellow fared much, much worse than they did.

I've never understood what the fuss over Peter Norman was about.  If it was about his wearing an OPHR badge, well, screw them.  If it was about his "just standing there" during the Black Power salute (which I've heard some people say), what on Earth else was he supposed to do?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: jumbojak on February 08, 2019, 12:45:29 AM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on February 08, 2019, 12:30:53 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on February 07, 2019, 03:34:06 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 07, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
:lol:

Ok, a self-proclaimed Culcha Warrioh ought not ask, but what is said to be going on in that photo? Because I see two guys going "Yay, I'm a winner!" and one guy being all "meh" about his... Silver? Bronze? Silver, I think.

The raised fist is typically a symbol of the left but in this case was associated with the Black Power movement. That Australian fellow fared much, much worse than they did.

I've never understood what the fuss over Peter Norman was about.  If it was about his wearing an OPHR badge, well, screw them.  If it was about his "just standing there" during the Black Power salute (which I've heard some people say), what on Earth else was he supposed to do?

It was the badge. Depending on who you ask, wearing that badge cost him his career as an athlete. He was a loathsome individual in many ways but he took a very brave stand that day and it seems to have cost him dearly.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Anne D. on February 08, 2019, 04:20:03 AM
Re: The Kavanaugh hearing comparison: Sorry, I wasn't very clear. When I compare the situations, I'm not comparing the act that the men are apologizing for, I'm comparing how the way they acted in response to being called out about their past (Northam's behavior at the second press conference, Kavanaugh's self-pitying responses and lashing out at the hearing). It's their current judgment and the way their acting now that disqualifies them for their positions, not necessarily what they did in the past.

Northam does not seem to know what he's apologizing for. That he had to take a full day to recognize that he supposedly wasn't in the pic of the KKK member and the man in blackface indicates he thought he'd been the one in the picture--that's pretty bad. But bad as it is, to me and a lot of Americans it would be forgivable if he just showed that he truly recognized how horrible it was to dress up for funsies as a KKK member, or wear blackface and pose with the KKK guy. The 80s was so close in time to the era when black people were being tortured and terrorized by the KKK. That Northam was that unempathetic and oblivious as a twenty-something is a Big Effing Deal. But again--I could let it lie if he'd just been human enough to give a real apology. A man with any conscience would have ignored his spin doctors and let his original apology stand. The guy needs to step down.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Anne D. on February 08, 2019, 04:22:18 AM
Ugh. "the way *they're* acting now"
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 08, 2019, 11:27:48 AM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 08, 2019, 04:20:03 AM
Northam does not seem to know what he's apologizing for.
This. Did nothing wrong at the time and in the context of your "wrongdoing?" Don't bloody well apologize then! But politicians...
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 08, 2019, 12:47:03 PM
Back in the day it was jolly good fun to blacken your face,
make mockery of the darker skinned
ha ha ha guffaw guffaw
Now is now and you can't be a pretend Jackson because of then.
Why would you want to go to a party as a black person?
Why wouldn't you, are you a fkn racist or something?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 08, 2019, 12:59:43 PM
Yep. More-or-less.

Line four: I think it's more a case of "It's wrong to 'blackface' now, so you are a disgrace, sir, for having done it twenty years ago."

Is it, though? Wrong, I mean? Is it really? What if it's Halloween, and you are engaging in some rightful race-appropriation? What if you mine coal forty years ago? What if you live in Zimbabwe? For that matter, what if you live in Bumfuck, Idaho, population: seven white dudes, a dog and an arsenal of guns?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 08, 2019, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 08, 2019, 12:59:43 PM
Yep. More-or-less.

Line four: I think it's more a case of "It's wrong to 'blackface' now, so you are a disgrace, sir, for having done it twenty years ago."

Is it, though? Wrong, I mean? Is it really? What if it's Halloween, and you are engaging in some rightful race-appropriation? What if you mine coal forty years ago? What if you live in Zimbabwe? For that matter, what if you live in Bumfuck, Idaho, population: seven white dudes, a dog and an arsenal of guns?

Ye well they are in their American circumstance and they have their guilt to deal with.

Line five and six of it is the gist of it for me
The latest dude is in the news for past abominations
Hearing the news I ask myself why would you dress up as black person?
There is a "are you a little bit racist?" thing going on, I don't subscribe to it, I am probably a smidge, I don't seek to be 100% pure. I will continue to question my motives.
I don't dress up as anyone anyway, I did drag once.
People do dress up as people they admire.
So is my self question "why would you dress up as black person" is it an expression of my innate racism, a plea from my soul for the universe to be a better place, or simply asking how could this guy be so fkn stupid.  It's complicated being me, how's it working for the rest of you, being you?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 08, 2019, 02:41:34 PM
Do you hold prejudice against black people because of their skin color? Then you may harbor a racist thought or two. Whether or not you do, it's your opinion. You have a right to it, whatever it may be, and whatever it may be, the blackface example may be a poor indicator either way. For instance,

why would I want to go to a party dressed up as a black person? For broadly the same reasons as I might go to a party as a Ferengi, a furrie or a condom. Entertainment value.

why would I not want to go to a party dressed up as a black person? For broadly the same reasons as I would not want to go to a party as a microwave oven, a beech tree or Jeff Sessions. That shit is boring.

Now, replace "black person" with whatever the hell you like, and my answers will remain the same, aaand without prejudice against a race or an ethnicity, there is no racism.


...I'm almost proud of just how un-woke and sensible I am ;D Pats on the back for all the Asmos. (Actually, most of my un-wokeness stems from me giving not a wee-tiny shit about those things I'm supposed to be all woke about. Race, "microaggressions..." Jeff Sessions...)

Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 08, 2019, 04:19:10 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 08, 2019, 02:41:34 PM
Do you hold prejudice against black people because of their skin color?

Probably.  I also have a belief in social justice, recognise historical injustices, think fair play is fair, don't want to be an asshole. I don't think the way to deal with a bias is denying you have one.

Do I think think there were/are ugly, cruel, nasty things done using blackface?
YES...and I'm sure I could cast a few cultural/racial biases their way.

Do I think blackface can never be used again and whoever does is forever tainted?
Never is a long time. I'm becoming irked by the narrow focused relentless zeal of the always offended.  Why can't they do normal porn like normal people?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Anne D. on February 08, 2019, 11:45:26 PM
Do you see my comment as "the relentless zeal of the always offended," or is "the always offended" just a general description of some other population you're railing against?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 09, 2019, 03:26:40 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 08, 2019, 11:45:26 PM
Do you see my comment as "the relentless zeal of the always offended,"

If I looked at it I might, I'm trying to learn not to.

Quote from: Anne D. on February 08, 2019, 11:45:26 PM
or is "the always offended" just a general description of some other population you're railing against?
It's not a general thing yet, it's just a thing I recently came up with as a coping mechanism.

I think sport is good, it's healthy, you should do it.
I abhor sport broadcasters, they are overly loud.
I don't get into the rah rah my team stuff.

I think blackface is bad, it's unhealthy, you shouldn't do it.
I...
I...
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
I heard that an US professor considers Marry Poppins iconic chimney sweep scene to be racist, because of black facing. Where does this craziness ends? When I was young, I played cowboys and Indians with my friends, should I now also have to apologize for my "racist" behaviour 40 years ago?

Any way, I think that [real] black facing isn't racist, but more a matter of bad taste.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Tank on February 10, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
...
Any way, I think that [real] black facing isn't racist, but more a matter of bad taste.

I don't think one should or could make a broad generalisation that black facing is or is not racist because the racist element is the intent of the individual doing the 'black facing' not that act itself. IMO.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 10, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
...
Any way, I think that [real] black facing isn't racist, but more a matter of bad taste.

I don't think one should or could make a broad generalisation that black facing is or is not racist because the racist element is the intent of the individual doing the 'black facing' not that act itself. IMO.

True, but we cannot look into the minds of people. We either guess their intentions or make assumptions about them.   
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 10, 2019, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 10, 2019, 09:55:58 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
...
Any way, I think that [real] black facing isn't racist, but more a matter of bad taste.

I don't think one should or could make a broad generalisation that black facing is or is not racist because the racist element is the intent of the individual doing the 'black facing' not that act itself. IMO.

True, but we cannot look into the minds of people. We either guess their intentions or make assumptions about them.

It is an assumption that black face is always racist by intent, whether the intent is conscious or subconscious.  It's considered part of the racism we're all indoctrinated with as part of a racist society and culture.  Performing in black face is just a statement of how little effort one's put into overcoming this ingrained racism.

Which is why I object to Northam's performance in black face being treated as if it happened yesterday, and not 35 yrs ago, and why I consider it short-sighted that his actions since then to protect civil rights are not being taken into account.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 10, 2019, 10:19:01 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on February 10, 2019, 07:12:34 AM
I heard that an US professor considers Marry Poppins iconic chimney sweep scene to be racist, because of black facing.

Yeah, he's getting a lot of attention because of this political hornet's nest.  His position is a lot more involved than just the chimney sweep scene tho, and his objections are more to Travers' writing than Disney's movie.  Where he's drawing racist conclusions isn't in chimney sweeping being sooty work, it's in how chimney sweeps are referred to and treated (called Hottentots, and black heathens, etc) in the Poppins books. 

He's considering that coded racism, tho to me it sounds more like the objections to Mark Twain's free use of "nigger" which wasn't a code at all, it was how people talked then.  I don't think it should surprise anyone that assumptions of white superiority and black inferiority were a lot more commonplace in the past and, in some groups, the present.

What's-his-name the scholar does have a point in that the alt-Right in America have claimed Travers as one of their own so she is becoming tainted with the whole "birds of a feather" thing.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on February 11, 2019, 02:47:14 AM
It's more important what he does now than what he did then. We've all done stupid stuff.  Are we demanding perfection?
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Sandra Craft on February 11, 2019, 03:42:59 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 11, 2019, 02:47:14 AM
It's more important what he does now than what he did then. We've all done stupid stuff.  Are we demanding perfection?

Exactly.  I know I did things in my 20s I wouldn't have done even 5 years later, much less 35 yrs later.   I'd certainly think it unfair to be judged my whole life for it.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 08, 2019, 04:19:10 PM
Probably.
Either you do, or you do not. Still, I'm not the one to judge - this is yours to figure out for yourself. The Instant you suggest that I am prejudiced against a group, however, I will ask you to demonstrate it.

QuoteI also have a belief in social justice,
At one point, so did I. Today, though... Well, you know.

Quoterecognise historical injustices,
As do I. I do not deny the Holocaust, the American slavery, the Inquisition, the Crusades... Any of it. What I am vehemently denying, however, is that somehow I bear the "original sin" of my forefathers. Never killed a Jew. Never owned a slave. Never drove the religious off their land. Guiltless.

I may help someone build a better community, but not because of some flawed sense of "historical responsibility," but rather, out of a wish for a better future.

Quotethink fair play is fair
By definition, it is. Equality is fair play. Equity is not.

Quotedon't want to be an asshole.
For what it's Worth, I don't think you are an asshole.

QuoteI don't think the way to deal with a bias is denying you have one.
Refer to the first quote. Which biases, pray tell, do I hold?

QuoteDo I think think there were/are ugly, cruel, nasty things done using blackface?
YES...and I'm sure I could cast a few cultural/racial biases their way.

Do I think blackface can never be used again and whoever does is forever tainted?
Never is a long time. I'm becoming irked by the narrow focused relentless zeal of the always offended.  Why can't they do normal porn like normal people?
Context matters. I think we agree on the underlying values here, just not on the specific actions.
Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Bad Penny II on February 13, 2019, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 08, 2019, 02:41:34 PM
Do you hold prejudice against black people because of their skin color?

Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 08, 2019, 04:19:10 PM
Probably.

Quote from: Asmodean on February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
Either you do, or you do not. Still, I'm not the one to judge - this is yours to figure out for yourself. The Instant you suggest that I am prejudiced against a group, however, I will ask you to demonstrate it. 

I accept the ideas that:

a)we all have an innate racism and
b)we should work to control it.

I suppose you are an exceptional individual and (a) may not apply so you don't have to do (b).  No sarcasm intended.

We (OZ) gave a home to some of those African kids, the lost boys.  The ones made to watch as their families were raped and butchered, then made into child soldiers.  My thoughts weren't positive, with what is known of traumatic stress I questioned the wisdom of it.  I think that is a rational reservation but I suspect there is some racial bias entangled in it.  I suspect the people who support such things are over compensating for their biases.  It is always possible that they are merely nice and kind and I'm an uncaring asshole.

Quote from: Asmodean on February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
What I am vehemently denying, however, is that somehow I bear the "original sin" of my forefathers. Never killed a Jew. Never owned a slave. Never drove the religious off their land. Guiltless.

I don't know much about Norway's historic treatment of the Sámi.
I think here the society has some sins to make amends for, it does get tiresome at times though.

Some years ago there was a white guy on the radio rejoicing about the indigenous way of raising kids.  They had a disproportionate number of excellent players of football (eggball but much foot involved).  He concluded that it was due to their upbringing, they were free range, the parents let them get burnt and learn their own lessons. 

About 23 years ago we were having an Xmas eve party, I gave the kids sparklers, I had a water filled glass jar ready for the spent ones because I'm careful.  I wasn't careful enough, I didn't tell my daughter not to touch the end of it and her finger got a bit blistered, I felt pretty crap about it, still do.

Last week an indigenous woman was saying on the radio their kids suffer many more accidents than non-indigenous kids.  Money should be provided to indigenous organisations to remedy this.  Well obviously, we don't want no more paternalism. 
I don't really think money is going to help though, they can't call in the helicopters.  They have to become helicopters, it's the only way.

Quote from: Asmodean on February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
QuoteI don't think the way to deal with a bias is denying you have one.
Refer to the first quote. Which biases, pray tell, do I hold?

Ah, back to the start again.
When I said that I was referring to my own struggle to live an examined life.

Do you really think you have no biases?
They are sneaky things, like roaches, you mightn't know you've got any unless you turn a metaphorical light on in your contextual existential late night kitchen.

Contextual late night kitchen? WTF?

Ye I know, I didn't think anyone would read this far, I thought it had to be some kind of kitchen.

When in doubt go for existential.

Oh that's much better, still bullshit but of a much richer texture.

Title: Re: The Northam mess
Post by: Asmodean on February 13, 2019, 02:37:28 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on February 13, 2019, 11:27:57 AM
I accept the ideas that:

a)we all have an innate racism and
b)we should work to control it.
Replace "we" with "I," and there is no problem what-so-ever. :-)

QuoteI suppose you are an exceptional individual and (a) may not apply so you don't have to do (b).  No sarcasm intended.
Thank you, I suppose I am at that. In this particular regard, though... I'm just an individual who doesn't care too much about people he doesn't know and at least somewhat like. I don't "not care" more or less depending on someone's ethnicity or skin color - I just. Don't. Giveafuck. If I do know and somewhat like you on the other hand, then your skin color is as boring and irrelevant to me as the brand of shoes you wear.

QuoteWe (OZ) gave a home to some of those African kids, the lost boys.  The ones made to watch as their families were raped and butchered, then made into child soldiers.  My thoughts weren't positive, with what is known of traumatic stress I questioned the wisdom of it.  I think that is a rational reservation but I suspect there is some racial bias entangled in it.  I suspect the people who support such things are over compensating for their biases.  It is always possible that they are merely nice and kind and I'm an uncaring asshole.
Racism may well be a subset of... Xenophobia? It's not a phobia, as such, but I believe that's the word they use regardless. The question is; were you sceptical about admitting those child soldiers because they were black, because they were child soldiers, or a combination of factors? Would you be OK with Bosnian child soldiers, who have been through the same sort of shit in their lives, coming over and pitching a tent? What about Syrian refugees? What about the fortune seekers among said refugees? Are you a racist for wanting to help those directly affected by war, but not those looking for a better future?

Note that I'm not actually asking you to justify your motives - you do not owe me that any more than I owe you a justification of mine. However, if you want to ascribe motives to my actions, you ought to be able to reasonably prove that your analysis is correct, ought you not? Projecting your own biases onto me... Nah. doesn't do it. (Not accusing you specifically of having done that. Spinning a more general narrative here)

Quote from: Asmodean on February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
I don't know much about Norway's historic treatment of the Sámi.
I think here the society has some sins to make amends for, it does get tiresome at times though.
Has its ups and downs, our history. I think we were much nastier to Gypsies and such, than we ever were to the Sami peoples, but... I did none of that, and I am not responsible for it. Making amends is for the guilty. I. Am. Not. Ask me in stead to help you move us both "up and forward," and you may get a different outcome than you will from trying to pin some in-hindsight bad deeds on me, from a time before I had any say in how my society was run.

QuoteLast week an indigenous woman was saying on the radio their kids suffer many more accidents than non-indigenous kids.  Money should be provided to indigenous organisations to remedy this.  Well obviously, we don't want no more paternalism. 
I don't really think money is going to help though, they can't call in the helicopters.  They have to become helicopters, it's the only way.
Penny, my friend, I believe you've just unwittingly did an """alt-right""" meme.  :P

This quote, though. Put it in relation to what I was saying just above. Australian kids in certain communities are at a greater risk of injury than Australian kids in other communities. What can we do to remedy that? Fuck who's indigenous and who's not - if they are my people, who's suffering, do you not think that alone makes it more likely that I will try to help, than if it's some group of which I'm not a member, and which really ought to solve its own damned problems? (Well, not me-me, obviously. I'm trying to counter an identitarian narrative with a Nationalist one. Individualist would also work here, but you didn't really set me up for that)

Rhetorics matter. Unfortunately, so does playing identity games.

Quote from: Asmodean on February 11, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
Ah, back to the start again.
Nono, I get it. Was underscoring an important point, that's all.

QuoteDo you really think you have no biases?
Doesn't matter. What matters, is that if you state that I hold a particular bias, that's yours to adequately demonstrate.

QuoteThey are sneaky things, like roaches, you mightn't know you've got any unless you turn a metaphorical light on in your contextual existential late night kitchen.
So... Which biases do I hold? And how do you know that I do hold them?

Again, I'm being rhetorical here. Not making any allegations. Ok... I think I can do this more clearly; if I don't know I'm biased (let's call my "unconscious bias" reason B) and do thing X for reason Y, thing Z for reason A and thing C for reason D. It may be that B figures into Y, A or D, but may it not also be that Y, A and D are by themselves my reasons to do X, Z and C? In that case, would that not also be true from the perspective of a third party observer if I was fully conscious of a potential reason B?

QuoteContextual late night kitchen? WTF?

Ye I know, I didn't think anyone would read this far, I thought it had to be some kind of kitchen.
I find this stuff interesting, so Yeah... Still with you.  :P Also, muh contextual late night kitchen makes some killer lasagne.  ;)