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General => Politics => Topic started by: ped on November 21, 2010, 11:42:11 AM

Title: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 11:42:11 AM
is there an instance where an employee, or collective of employees is paid equal to or more than the income they generate?
the point of hiring someone to do the work for you is to profit from their effort, otherwise there would be no point and the business would fail, no? who would hire someone who generates less money than their wage? conversely I understand that employment is relatively free choice, but why would anyone want to work for less than the sum total of their effort? who in their right mind would allow themselves to be so obviously ripped off? is it because they have no other options?

if this is the case then how is capitalism at the most fundemental level not exploitation?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 11:55:17 AM
I work for what I consider an adequate payment for my efforts. How much my employer earns off my job, I honestly don't care about.

The work you do is worth what the marked will pay for it. The product of your work, by the same, is worth what marked will pay for it. Those are two different numbers, as work and its products are different things.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 11:58:09 AM
so you're okay with being payed less than you earned it total? why? why do you give your effort away for free?

also what dictates market wages and why?

if, hypothetically, your employeer earned $50,000,000,000.00 from soley your effort and paid you a market wage of say $30,000.00, would that be okay since it is market rate?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: "ped"so you're okay with being payed less than you earned it total?
I don't. I am paid exactly what I earn in total. The company I work for, however, makes additional funds by selling what I make. They too have their expenses associated with the job and their margins of profit. I'm perfectly ok with it since that means I don't have to do things I'm not qualified to do, such as marketing, sales and support, in addition to having enough funds to waste every time a paycheck comes in.

Quotewhy? why do you give your effort away for free?
I don't. I just sell it for a price I want, pretty much. Had I had a more inflexible job, I'd sell my skills for what the employer was willing to pay. There is nothing there to suggest "free". Free is when you work 12 hours and get paid for 8.

Quotealso what dictates market wages and why?
Supply and demand. Monopolies. Competition. Quality and quantity of the product. Level of skill required. There are many factors there, which I will not go too deeply into with my "economics for engineers" as the only knowledge ballast.

Quoteif, hypothetically, your employeer earned $50,000,000,000.00 from soley your effort and paid you a market wage of say $30,000.00, would that be okay since it is market rate?
Yes, it's ok. If you think you are being underpaid though, you can always demand a raise or find a job which will pay you more for the same amount of effort.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"I don't. I am payed exactly what I earn in total. The company I work for, however, makes additional funds by selling what I make. They too have their expenses associated with the job and their margins of profit. I'm perfectly ok with it since that means I don't have to do things I'm not qualified to do, such as marketing, sales and support, in addition to having enough funds to waste every time a paycheck comes in.

but they made a profit, so you generated more than what you were paid. why would you give away your time and labor for less than its worth?

QuoteI don't. I just sell it for a price I want, pretty much.

do you price it at less than it generates? if so, why? that would be giving a portion of your effort and time away for free.

QuoteHad I had a more inflexible job, I'd sell my skills for what the employer was willing to pay. There is nothing there to suggest "free". Free is when you work 12 hours and get paid for 8.

really, thats the only definition? cant free also mean when you earn $12 and get paid for $8 and therefore gave $4 away for nothing?

QuoteYes, it's ok. If you think you are being underpaid though, you can always demand a raise or find a job which will pay you more for the same amount of effort.  

alright its okay, but how is it not exploitation?

will the wage of that new job or the raise be equal to or greater than the total sum of the wealth I create? if not why would I agree to giving the difference away?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 12:51:09 PM
Quote from: "ped"but they made a profit, so you generated more than what you were paid. why would you give away your time and labor for less than its worth?
Of course I generate profit when I work for a company. Otherwise, there would really be no point in keeping me employed, now would it..? If a company is in a crisis, it's often the employees who do not generate profit without being essential who have to go first.

As to why I would "give away" my time and labour for "less than it's worth" - I don't. I don't give it away since I do get paid and I don't underprice it since my wage is well above average for my profession and the current objective is of average complexity.

Quotedo you price it at less than it generates? if so, why? that would be giving a portion of your effort and time away for free.
No. I'm not giving anything away, ok. I say "My hour costs 50 bucks" and 50 bucks I get (example hourly rate) Nothing "given away" there unless I work free overtime. I don't price it as less then it generates - the total income is calculated after my wages are paid. It is my wage, among other factors, that dictates the from-factory-price of the end-product, not the other way around. I price it to what I think my skills are worth compared to average within my level of education and line of work. I think I'm above average, and so above average you have to pay me.

Quotereally, thats the only definition? cant free also mean when you earn $12 and get paid for $8 and therefore gave $4 away for nothing?
If your contract, which you signed upon employment, says that you earn 12 bucks but get 8 before taxes, then yes. If, on the other hand, it says that you earn 8 bucks and doesn't even mention what your employer earns by selling your effort, then no. Then you are selling yourself for an agreed price. Period.

Quotewill that new job be equal to or greater than the total sum of the wealth you create?
Doesn't matter. what matters is whether or not you are satisfied with your personal sum total and with the percentage of generated income it represents, if you care about such things.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 01:08:16 PM
QuoteOf course I generate profit when I work for a company. Otherwise, there would really be no point in keeping me employed, now would it..?

no, thats the point. because the reason for keeping you employeed is to pay you less than you generate. i.e. to exploit your efforts.


QuoteAs to why I would "give away" my time and labour for "less than it's worth" - I don't. I don't give it away since I do get paid and I don't underprice it since my wage is well above average for my profession and the current objective is of average complexity.
 

but you just said you generate more than you get paid.


QuoteNo. I'm not giving anything away, ok. I say "My hour costs 50 bucks" and 50 bucks I get (example hourly rate) Nothing "given away" there unless I work free overtime. I don't price it as less then it generates - the total income is calculated after my wages are paid. It is my wage, among other factors, that dictates the from-factory-price of the end-product, not the other way around. I price it to what I think my skills are worth compared to average within my level of education and line of work. I think I'm above average, and so above average you have to pay me.

again you said "off course i generate a profit." so your price is always going to be less than its total value, right? why in the world are you agreeing to give away that difference?

QuoteIf your contract, which you signed upon employment, says that you earn 12 bucks but get 8 before taxes, then yes. If, on the other hand, it says that you earn 8 bucks and doesn't even mention what your employer earns by selling your effort, then no. Then you are selling yourself for an agreed price. Period.

why would anyone in their right mind agree on $8 without knowing what their services are actually worth? why would anyone even agree on a set price instead of an equal or positive percentage of what their efforts generate in total?


QuoteDoesn't matter. what matters is whether or not you are satisfied with your personal sum total and with the percentage of generated income it represents, if you care about such things.

are saying it is in fact exploitation but thats okay?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 01:30:28 PM
Quote from: "ped"no, thats the point. because the reason for keeping you employeed is to pay you less than you generate. i.e. to exploit your efforts.
*sigh* You're hopeless...  :raised:

Again and again (and again and again...) I am NOT giving anything away. To give something away, I have to posess it. I do NOT posess the profit generated by the company as a whole. I am a tool that is required for a certain job and I am paid accordingly to the job I do. When it is done, the company's profit is the marked value of the end product minus my salary, marketing cost, material costs, administrative expenses, taxes and the like.

Quotewhy would anyone in their right mind agree on $8 without knowing what their services are actually worth? would it be foolish to assume that if they're offered only $8 that their services are actually more valuable? if so, why?
A personal question: are you by chance unemployed..?

Can't answer for the world in general, but I agree to my wage because I think that is what my skills are worth after having examined what lowest and highest paid professionals in my country and line of work get for what jobs and measuring that against my own expected effort, level of education and amount of responsibility.

Quotewhy would anyone be satisfied with so much less than their earning in total? why would i sell you a $1k piece of gold for $1?
Your earnings are NOT the same as company income, unless you ARE the company.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 01:54:47 PM
Quote*sigh* You're hopeless...  :raised:

maybe someone hacked your account?

QuoteI am a tool

 :hmm:

QuoteI am paid accordingly to the job I do. When it is done, the company's profit is the marked value of the end product minus my salary, marketing cost, material costs, administrative expenses, taxes and the like.

Can't answer for the world in general, but I agree to my wage because I think that is what my skills are worth after having examined what lowest and highest paid professionals in my country and line of work get for what jobs and measuring that against my own expected effort, level of education and amount of responsibility.

so you're fine with getting less than you're actually worth, as long as everyone else is also?

QuoteA personal question: are you by chance unemployed..?

i am self-employeed.

QuoteYour earnings are NOT the same as company income, unless you ARE the company.

correct. you are there to earn the company more money than they pay you.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 02:19:27 PM
Quote from: "ped"but you're paid less than you made for your employeer. your employeer made money from you. he exploited your time and effort for a profit. just because you feel thats okay doesnt mean its not exploitation.

exploit, according to Merriam Webster.

1: to make productive use of : utilize <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness>
2: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>

Assuming, as I have throughout this thread, that you are refering to definition two, the following conditions are unmet: Meanly, unfairly. Thus, the definition of exploit does not stand in this case.

Quotemaybe someone hacked your account?
I doubt it. It's just that I'm careful not to use off when I mean of. It distorts the meaning. For instance, off course is the opposite of on course while of course is somewhat synonimous to certainly or for sure.

Quote:hmm:
A tool. An instrument to be used to perform certain tasks.

Quoteso you're fine with getting less than you're actually worth, as long as everyone else is also?
"you're actually worth"..? What AM I actually worth? To whom? My employer..? They pay me exactly what I'm worth to them, I think. Perhaps even a bit more. They still make very good money off my work though.

Quotei am self-employeed.
...Yet the answers to most of these questions are not intuitively obvious to you..?

Quotecorrect. you are there to earn the company more money than they pay you.
No. My agenda is to earn me money and possibly make a name for myself while at it. That is the whole reason why I am there. The company has its perspective and seen with their eyes, your assertion is usually perfectly correct, but you did put forth your statement from MY perspective, not their.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 02:37:20 PM
Quoteexploit, according to Merriam Webster.

1: to make productive use of: utilize <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness>
2: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>

Assuming, as I have throughout this thread, that you are refering to definition two, the following conditions are unmet: Meanly, unfairly. Thus, the definition of exploit does not stand in this case.


un·fair   (Å­n-fâr')
adj., -er, -est.
1.Not just or evenhanded; biased: an unfair call by an umpire.
2.Contrary to laws or conventions, especially in commerce; unethical: unfair trading.

why did Websters use migrant workers in the example of exploitation you think?


QuoteA tool. An instrument to be used to perform certain tasks.


exploit, according to Merriam Webster.

1: to make productive use of


Quote"you're actually worth"..? What AM I actually worth? To whom? My employer..? They pay me exactly what I'm worth to them, I think. Perhaps even a bit more. They still make very good money off my work though.

so you admit they're not paying you what you're earning. so you didnt make what you're worth. i understand that you, for some bizarre reason have accepted this, but i fail to see how you're not being made productive use of?

Quote...Yet the answers to most of these questions are not intuitively obvious to you..?

no, they make no sense at all quite frankly.

QuoteNo. My agenda is to earn me money and possibly make a name for myself while at it. That is the whole reason why I am there. The company has its perspective and seen with their eyes, your assertion is usually perfectly correct, but you did put forth your statement from MY perspective, not their.

regardless of your reasons, you have allowed yourself to be a tool for profit. the migrant workers are exploited because of their will for money, you're exploited because of your will for money. how are the two of you ultimately different? or do you just simply disagree with websters example?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: "ped"un·fair   (Å­n-fâr')
adj., -er, -est.
1.Not just or evenhanded; biased: an unfair call by an umpire.
2.Contrary to laws or conventions, especially in commerce; unethical: unfair trading.

why did Websters use migrant workers in the example of exploitation you think?
Because they are often being exploited by recieving sub-marked wages or working in conditions considered illegal by a given government.

I, however, am not an immigrant worker. My wage is good for my line of work and the working environment law is followed to the best of my employer's ability. No un-fairness there. None at all.


Quoteso you admit they're not paying you what you're earning.
Distorted facts. I admit no such thing. I am paid exactly what I earn - if I wasn't, I'd likely drag my employer to court.

Quoteso you didnt make what you're worth.
What AM I worth? To whom?

Quotei understand that you, for some bizarre reason have accepted this, but i fail to see how you're not being made productive use of?
I'm sorry, I'm losing you here... What on earth are you talking about?

Quoteno, they make no sense at all quite frankly.
Nor do my explanations, apparently. Can we have an economics teacher here, please!  :raised:

Quoteregardless of your reasons, you have allowed yourself to be a tool for profit.
Yup. Serves my needs just fine.

Quotethe migrant workers are exploited because of their will for money, you're exploited because of your will for money. how are the two of you ultimately different? or do you just simply disagree with websters example?
Oh, we are very different. I am not in any way treated unfairly or unlawfully by my employer, thus I am not being exploited by definition 2 of Merriam Webster. Definition 2 is at the core different from definition 1, encompassing some specifics that go to the negative use of the word. By first definition, we are all the same and capitalism is the same as anything else that requires you to work for a living. By second definition, I am in no way exploited other than being utilized as a profit-generating instrument. That falls short of exploitation since, as I stated, I am treated fairly and according to my country's laws and regulations.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 03:30:53 PM
QuoteBecause they are often being exploited by recieving sub-marked wages or working in conditions considered illegal by a given government.

I, however, am not an immigrant worker. My wage is good for my line of work and the working environment law is followed to the best of my employer's ability. No un-fairness there. None at all.

so if everyone else doesnt feel they're being cheated (market wage), and the government has decided that using people to make a profit will be tolerated, then thats not explotative?

QuoteDistorted facts. I admit no such thing. I am paid exactly what I earn - if I wasn't, I'd likely drag my employer to court.

you said multiple times you're not being payed what you earn for the company.


QuoteWhat AM I worth? To whom?

you're worth precisely what you earn in total.


QuoteI'm sorry, I'm losing you here... What on earth are you talking about?

ditto


QuoteNor do my explanations, apparently. Can we have an economics teacher here, please!  :raised

what does economics have to do with the ethics?


QuoteYup. Serves my needs just fine.

great! but you're still a willful tool. (no personal insult intended)

QuoteOh, we are very different. I am not in any way treated unfairly or unlawfully by my employer

law here is arbitrary and an apeal to authority. whether you are treated fairly is in contention. so is fairly purely subjective then? arent 3rd world child laborers happy to even have a job?

Quotethus I am not being exploited by definition 2 of Merriam Webster. Definition 2 is at the core different from definition 1, encompassing some specifics that go to the negative use of the word. By first definition, we are all the same and capitalism is the same as anything else that requires you to work for a living.

no because capitalism is dependant on people willing to accept less than their work is ultimately worth. other systems net 100% return on time and effort. capitalism means <100% for the employee and >100% for the employer.

 
QuoteI am in no way exploited other than being utilized as a profit-generating instrument. That falls short of exploitation since, as I stated, I am treated fairly and according to my country's laws and regulations.

again appeal to authority fallacy. just because the government has allowed it doesnt make it not exploitative.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 21, 2010, 04:06:26 PM
Quote from: "ped"so if everyone else doesnt feel they're being cheated (market wage), and the government has decided that using people to make a profit will be tolerated, then thats not explotative?
Not my point, but that would be correct under the more usual circumstances.

Quoteyou said multiple times you're not being payed what you earn for the company.
Yes. I earn more for the company than I get from it. And yet I am paid what I am worth to them. My work (or THE work, to be more precise, since it doesn't really matter if I do it, or someone else) is worth a tad more, however.

Quoteyou're worth precisely what you earn in total.
Yes. What YOU earn. Not what someone earns by selling the products of your work.

Quotewhat does economics have to do with the ethics?
What do ethics have to do with economics? What does global warming have to do with the environment for that matter?

Ethics are a part of most schools in life, be it work and money making or love and relationships. Or driving a car, for that matter.

Quotegreat! but you're still a willful tool. (no personal insult intended)
And you see some big ethical problem in it, I take it..? How would I not be a tool to someone else's ends under communism, for instance?

Quotelaw here is arbitrary and an apeal to authority. whether you are treated fairly is in contention. so is fairly purely subjective then? arent 3rd world child laborers happy to even have a job?
And as long as their country's law permits child labour and they are paid according to the marked for their line of work and above minimal wage, if applicable, then what's the problem..? How are they then treated meanly or unfairly, as Webster put it..?

Quoteno because capitalism is dependant on people willing to accept less than their work is ultimately worth. other systems net 100% return on time and effort. capitalism means <100% for the employee and >100% for the employer.
What you are saying that while I earn less than I earn, my employer earns more than he earns. That... Is bullshit. The other point about capitalism and something else is severely flawed too. However, I tire of this going back and forth, so I'm not gonna address it at this time.

Quoteagain appeal to authority fallacy. just because the government has allowed it doesnt make it not exploitative.
Within a society, it's government largely defines what is considered fair and lawful. Those are key points in defining exploitation in its negative meaning. No fallacy here since the whole debate is not a cosmic scale dilemma, or even an inter-social one. If a Polish worker works in my country and recieves less for hour than my countryman with the same level of education and/or experience, it's exploitation. If however, worker A does the job for about the same as worker B, representing the general run of the profession in question would and the laws and regulations that apply to the given society are upheld, that is, by definition (2 of MW), not exploitative.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 21, 2010, 04:28:35 PM
Quote from: "ped"is there an instance where an employee, or collective of employees is paid equal to or more than the income they generate?

No, such a business would quickly go under.  You forget that "the income they generate" must not only pay worker incomes, it must pay overhead and capital costs.

Quotethe point of hiring someone to do the work for you is to profit from their effort, otherwise there would be no point and the business would fail, no?

Yep.

Quotewho would hire someone who generates less money than their wage?

Governments and other non-profits, obviously.

Quoteconversely I understand that employment is relatively free choice, but why would anyone want to work for less than the sum total of their effort? who in their right mind would allow themselves to be so obviously ripped off? is it because they have no other options?

No, it's because the options (taking out a loan, securing a location, developing a product, organizing its manufacture and distribution, etc) are a helluva lot of work that most people do not wish to undertake, and so they work for less in order to let the business owner handle these headaches.  In a very real sense, the profit they generate is the reward to the owner for being willing to assume not only these responsibilities, but the risks of putting one's own money up for risk.  How would you propose to get these things done without incentivizing them?

Quoteif this is the case then how is capitalism at the most fundemental level not exploitation?

Why single out capitalism?  Socialism exploits as well: if a state business turns a profit, it is exploiting customers who don't have a choice of product, and if it doesn't turn a profit, then it is exploiting taxpayers (who may not agree with the way the business is run at all) by forcing them to subsidize it.

Sad fact:  all of life is exploitation.  For you to live, something else must die, be it plant or animal.  There is no way around that blunt reality, and no sense in wringing one's hands over it.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 21, 2010, 05:54:45 PM
QuoteNo, such a business would quickly go under.  You forget that "the income they generate" must not only pay worker incomes, it must pay overhead and capital costs.

okay lets reword it to say the net profits they create.


QuoteGovernments and other non-profits, obviously.

obviously that wouldnt be capitalism.


QuoteNo, it's because the options (taking out a loan, securing a location, developing a product, organizing its manufacture and distribution, etc) are a helluva lot of work that most people do not wish to undertake, and so they work for less in order to let the business owner handle these headaches.  In a very real sense, the profit they generate is the reward to the owner for being willing to assume not only these responsibilities, but the risks of putting one's own money up for risk.  How would you propose to get these things done without incentivizing them?

oh i see so the vast majority of the population work for less than they're worth because they dont want to own the means to produce or service? would there or has there ever been a case where someone wanted to take a loan but could not, had no capital to develop a product, and had no possible means to organize manufacture and distribution? is it ethical for risk to be rewarded with infinite profit?

hypothetically, is paying $.27 hr. to employees in a 3rd world child labor sweatshop not exploitation and justified with a $9,000,000,000.00 annual profit margin? they are making a market rate afterall.



QuoteWhy single out capitalism?  Socialism exploits as well: if a state business turns a profit, it is exploiting customers who don't have a choice of product, and if it doesn't turn a profit, then it is exploiting taxpayers (who may not agree with the way the business is run at all) by forcing them to subsidize it.

if you want to start a thread about socialism thats fine, i was asking specifically about capitalism for a particular discussion.

QuoteSad fact:  all of life is exploitation.  For you to live, something else must die, be it plant or animal.  There is no way around that blunt reality, and no sense in wringing one's hands over it.

so capitalism is exploitation?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Heretical Rants on November 21, 2010, 06:48:25 PM
I´d define capitalism as "the exchange of goods and services for mutual benefit."

You use sweatshops as an example in your argument. Fine. Indentured servitude and slavery are exploitation, whether they´re placed under an outside framework of capitalism or not.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 21, 2010, 11:04:06 PM
Exploitation can be defined with or without victimisation.

In a free market a business making an excessive profit per employee ratio, will find new entrants in the market, profitability will drop bringing the ratio back to a normal range.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 22, 2010, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Exploitation can be defined with or without victimisation.

In a free market a business making an excessive profit per employee ratio, will find new entrants in the market, profitability will drop bringing the ratio back to a normal range.


why is the exact oppostite happening with 3rd world labor?  what is stoping a company from seeking lower wages instead of a lower profit margin?


QuoteI´d define capitalism as "the exchange of goods and services for mutual benefit."

You use sweatshops as an example in your argument. Fine. Indentured servitude and slavery are exploitation, whether they´re placed under an outside framework of capitalism or not.

they're not slaves, they have a choice. they're simply somewhat extreme expamples of the exact sample principle everyone else is subject to under capitalism. which is the difference between what you earn in total versus what you recieve for compensation, minus overhead and risk, is always a negative sum.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 22, 2010, 12:39:03 AM
I still fail to see any kind of ethical problem that was implied at some point...  :raised:
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 22, 2010, 01:17:20 AM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Exploitation can be defined with or without victimisation.

In a free market a business making an excessive profit per employee ratio, will find new entrants in the market, profitability will drop bringing the ratio back to a normal range.

why is the exact oppostite happening with 3rd world labor?  what is stoping a company from seeking lower wages instead of a lower profit margin?

If a company moves production to china, for a while their return on investment is high through low employee costs.
Other companies will move production, price competition will result, you get a lower profit per employee ratio.
The employees haven't benefited, the fat, nose-less, capitalist scum dog western consumers have.

And you can only drive wages so low.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 22, 2010, 02:07:00 AM
Quote from: "ped"
QuoteNo, such a business would quickly go under.  You forget that "the income they generate" must not only pay worker incomes, it must pay overhead and capital costs.

okay lets reword it to say the net profits they create.

In that case, the business model is doomed to failure.

Quote
QuoteGovernments and other non-profits, obviously.

obviously that wouldnt be capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't hire anyone, organizations do, no matter what economic system they operate in, and they still have to meet budgetary accountability to the consumer, at the end of the day.

Quoteoh i see so the vast majority of the population work for less than they're worth because they dont want to own the means to produce or service?

No.  I'd advise you go back and read what I actually wrote, rather than injecting your own strawman into my words.  I said they don't want to do the work of setting up a company, and taking the risks.

Quotewould there or has there ever been a case where someone wanted to take a loan but could not, had no capital to develop a product, and had no possible means to organize manufacture and distribution? is it ethical for risk to be rewarded with infinite profit?

I'm certain that's happened in certain places.  Also, the profit is not, and cannot, be infinite, because neither the money-supply nor the consumer-base is.

Quotehypothetically, is paying $.27 hr. to employees in a 3rd world child labor sweatshop not exploitation and justified with a $9,000,000,000.00 annual profit margin? they are making a market rate afterall.

Well, that's certainly a representative case <snort>.  Were I to deploy the same sort of rhetoric, I'd cite how GM's overly generous health and pension plans damned near put the company out of business, saved only by a taxpayer bailout.  I won't, because I'm smart enough to see that neither of these cases are typical.

Quoteif you want to start a thread about socialism thats fine, i was asking specifically about capitalism for a particular discussion.

Yeah, I gathered that.  My question remains unanswered, but to be honest, it doesn't erally matter.  Your bias is about as subtle as a kick to the groin.   I just wanted to see if you would be honest enough to put it in the open.

QuoteSad fact:  all of life is exploitation.  For you to live, something else must die, be it plant or animal.  There is no way around that blunt reality, and no sense in wringing one's hands over it.

Quoteso capitalism is exploitation?

Re-read my point, and try to land closer to the bull's-eye this time.  Here's your cue:  All life is exploitation.  Got it?

Also, if you're truly interested in discussion, rhetoric is not the best way to go about it.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 22, 2010, 02:12:22 AM
Also, a snippet of lyric from Neil Peart seems appropriate here:

QuoteSo the maples formed a union, and demanded equal rights --
"The oaks are just too greedy, we must make them give us light!"
Now there's no more oak oppression, for they passed a noble law,
and the trees are all kept equal,
by hatchet,
axe,
and saw.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: SSY on November 22, 2010, 06:49:10 AM
Ped, you seem to have some funny views. As a self employed person, and therefore, a kind of business owner, would you ever employ someone? Would you pay them exactly the amount of profit they "generate"? How would determine how much of the profit they generate?
Title:
Post by: hunterman317 on November 22, 2010, 03:13:35 PM
It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.
Title: Re:
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 22, 2010, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: "hunterman317"It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.

The greed is human, not systemic, and shows in any system men devise.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 22, 2010, 06:18:08 PM
Quote from: "SSY"Ped, you seem to have some funny views. As a self employed person, and therefore, a kind of business owner, would you ever employ someone? Would you pay them exactly the amount of profit they "generate"? How would determine how much of the profit they generate?
...Which was the reason I thought he was unemployed... Or a kid. Or both.
Title:
Post by: hunterman317 on November 23, 2010, 06:23:06 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "hunterman317"It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.

The greed is human, not systemic, and shows in any system men devise.

If that's true, what hope can we have in government? How does this relate? Look at the federal reserve. Now look at the national debt (bank bailouts).
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 23, 2010, 07:25:21 AM
Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "SSY"Ped, you seem to have some funny views. As a self employed person, and therefore, a kind of business owner, would you ever employ someone? Would you pay them exactly the amount of profit they "generate"? How would determine how much of the profit they generate?
...Which was the reason I thought he was unemployed... Or a kid. Or both.

really? linking capitalism to exploitation is odd views? is this the first time you've heard the comparison?
no if i need help i split the profit like any decent person would do.  generally i have a friend or two help out when work becomes too much to handle myself. i would be totally ripping them off if i just said id give them $8 hr (or "market rate")......and they would have to be really desperate to even consider it. on the other hand i do like to pay bums with bags of pennies and some grape 20/20 to fight each other for my entertainment.

you guys seem to have a very odd ethics and be really bogged down in the capitalism dogma, which is why i thought you might be kids or something..
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 23, 2010, 07:40:29 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Also, a snippet of lyric from Neil Peart seems appropriate here:

QuoteSo the maples formed a union, and demanded equal rights --
"The oaks are just too greedy, we must make them give us light!"
Now there's no more oak oppression, for they passed a noble law,
and the trees are all kept equal,
by hatchet,
axe,
and saw.


lol neal peart....the libertarian. lmao. you going to quote rand next too?
Title: Re:
Post by: ped on November 23, 2010, 07:52:32 AM
Quote from: "hunterman317"It is because they have no other options. It's hard to explain, but corporations choose to pay less and consider their effort pushing paper more than the one building their 50 million dollar house. I swear if I didn't know the entire system (being as beautiful as it is) didn't have just that one flaw, greed, then I would drop out of college and get hired immediately. Private businesses are the same. Intelligence is crucial.

employeers dont choose to pay less, they actively seek it. its kinda the point. thats called the profit margin and what you just pointed out is the function of the apparently all beautiful  market.

the magic and mysterious "invisible hand of the market" solves all societies problems! ..its a wonderful piece of propaganda, but its not entirely real.

capitalism consumes itself because of its own greed. its downfall is the over-exploitation of the working class. because barring a massive export market, the worker is the consumer. its fundemenatally flawed at it very core because of this and thats why government has to regulate it so strictly to even be able to function on its own over time.

its always the same when these arguements are brought up, a strict alliegence to the psuedo-theory masquerades as sufficient logic... like discussions with any other dogmatist. for example - "if you're not happy with what you're making, simply negotiate a higher pay."  (as if the real world works this way, unless we're talking about labor market monopolization through unionism, something im willing to bet the author of the statement is ironically opposed to)
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Wilson on November 23, 2010, 09:14:28 AM
The employer expoloits its employees; the employee exploits the employer.  

The reason capitalism makes for good economy is that it is efficient.  The end result is usually that the economy is better for all levels of society than communism or pure socialism.  The great experiment was during the cold war.  The capitalist country always did better economically than the communist country - Germany vs West Germany, South Korea vs North Korea, US vs Soviet Union, Taiwan vs China, etc.

The down side of capitalism is that it has the potential for abuses, and there must be restrictions in place to prevent those abuses.  Monopolies should not be allowed, for example.  The banking and credit industries need more regulation.  There's the danger that people will fall through the cracks and have it harder than in socialist systems where everybody is taken care of to some extent.

A postive aspect of capitalism is that it encourages innovation and hard work, and it tends to keep supplies up and prices down.  

The old saying about Marxism is: Wonderful theory, wrong species.  It kills initiative.  The poor people in capitalist countries tend to be better off economically than the middle class in Communist countries.

Exploitation is just a word.  If you earn what seems to be a fair salary, why in the world would you worry about whether your employer is making a profit off your work?  The employer is providing a job to you, and unless he makes a profit, he won't stay in business.  Some people just aren't happy unless they have something to complain about.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 23, 2010, 12:11:31 PM
Quote from: "ped"really? linking capitalism to exploitation is odd views? is this the first time you've heard the comparison?
From an entity seeking a serious discussion, in regard to the negatively charged definition of exploitation, yes. I have, of course, heard of corporations exploiting employees and governments exploiting the people, but not of the capitalist model being at its core exploitative.

Quoteno if i need help i split the profit like any decent person would do.  generally i have a friend or two help out when work becomes too much to handle myself. i would be totally ripping them off if i just said id give them $8 hr
You do know that temps are supposed to be more expensive than ye old regular workers..? It's only natural that when you need people on short notice and possibly have a deadline to meet, that those you hire for short periods of time know that they can squeeze quite a bit out of you. An exception is high unemployment. Then you don't have to pay more than the average within a profession - if that.

Quotelike to pay bums with bags of pennies and some grape 20/20 to fight each other for my entertainment.
I find my entertainment in watching the police remove the bums - for free.

Quoteyou guys seem to have a very odd ethics and be really bogged down in the capitalism dogma, which is why i thought you might be kids or something..
Actually, I'm a shameless materialist. My ethics though are those largely accepted by my government's laws and regulations. I'm no more ethical than I need to be, really, but not un-ethical either.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 23, 2010, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Also, a snippet of lyric from Neil Peart seems appropriate here:

QuoteSo the maples formed a union, and demanded equal rights --
"The oaks are just too greedy, we must make them give us light!"
Now there's no more oak oppression, for they passed a noble law,
and the trees are all kept equal,
by hatchet,
axe,
and saw.


lol neal peart....the libertarian. lmao. you going to quote rand next too?

Ad homineim attacks are the surest sign of a weak argument.  Why don't you answer the point, instead of the source?

Assuming, of course, that you can glean the point.
Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 23, 2010, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: "ped"capitalism consumes itself because of its own greed.

Again, you mised my point earlier.  Capitalism is not, and cannot, be greedy, as greed is a quality of people.  All people are greedy to one extent or another.  Changing the system under which they operate does not remove the greed.  It only forces it to work through new channels.

I'm still awaiting an answer to my question:  without the profit margin, how do you propose to motivate start-up businesses?  

Quoteits downfall is the over-exploitation of the working class. because barring a massive export market, the worker is the consumer. its fundemenatally flawed at it very core because of this and thats why government has to regulate it so strictly to even be able to function on its own over time.

Pray tell, what human isn't a consumer?  Name one.

Quoteits always the same when these arguements are brought up, a strict alliegence to the psuedo-theory masquerades as sufficient logic... like discussions with any other dogmatist. for example - "if you're not happy with what you're making, simply negotiate a higher pay."  (as if the real world works this way, unless we're talking about labor market monopolization through unionism, something im willing to bet the author of the statement is ironically opposed to)

Oddly enough, I've negotiated for my pay several times, and managed to do quite well, thanks -- and I'm not a contract employee; I'm a business manager by trade, and the negotiations were with corporate representatives, not private owners  The real  world doesn't work the way you seem to think it does, at least not on a universal basis.  It is not so didactic as your rhetoric would portray.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: elliebean on November 24, 2010, 04:03:32 AM
Quote from: "ped"you guys seem to have a very odd ethics and be really bogged down in the capitalism dogma, which is why i thought you might be kids or something..
:hail:

I for one am really enjoying following this discussion. I've had the same one soooooo many times, but bc of my lapses of memory and attention, I rarely have the kind of clarity on the subject that Ped seems to have (I'm a terrible debater). Nor have I ever had the confidence to attempt to go all socratic about it, either.

Love you guys, but I'm with Ped on this one.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Wilson on November 24, 2010, 04:37:15 AM
Question:  Would you rather live in a society where everybody is scraping by, just enough to eat simple meals, minimal shelter, but everybody is in pretty much the same boat.  Or .. a society where there are large differences in economic level between the high earners and the low earners, the low earners have just enough to eat and minimal shelter, the high earners live in luxury.

That's kind of the choice between communism/strict socialism and capitalism.  There are a lot more chances for people to take advantage of others under capitalism, but the drives are similar under both, and there's a lot of corruption under both.  It's a natural human impulse to want to do better than our neighbors; that's in our DNA, and it has obvious survival advantages.  You can call that greed, and it's more acceptable under capitalism, but universal.  Under central planning everybody is trying to scam the system, under capitalism everybody is trying to get ahead.  There are some unattractive things about capitalism - the gap between rich and poor in particular - but communism simply doesn't work very well, because while the theory is based on benevolence toward our neighbors, the people in some capitalist nations actually have more spirit of charity than people in central planning nations.  Also, look at communist leaders; very few statesmen.  So the theory is nice but not compatible with human nature.

In my opinion, the best system for the people is a capitalist economy with well thought out controls to prevent abuse and make sure nobody falls through the cracks.  But we must remember that unless there is true price/quality competition in a particular area of business, the market forces aren't going to work to keep prices down and quality up, and government regulation may be needed.  I believe that medical care is one of those areas, and a single payer, universal coverage system is the ideal.  Unlikely in the US, however.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 24, 2010, 08:16:44 AM
I agree about medicine: I find the idea of profit attached to the medical care of humans to be obnoxious.  

But the idea that you can remove profit without sapping motivation for improvement is not only silly, but historically unsupported.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: elliebean on November 24, 2010, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: "Wilson"Question:  Would you rather live in a society where everybody is scraping by, just enough to eat simple meals, minimal shelter, but everybody is in pretty much the same boat.  Or .. a society where there are large differences in economic level between the high earners and the low earners, the low earners have just enough to eat and minimal shelter, the high earners live in luxury.
I wish those were the only two options. What of those who have not enough to eat and no shelter?

Anyway, as to "high earners" and "low earners": to 'earn' means to work for something or produce something valuable, does it not? You contribute something; you get something back, ideally of equal value. It seems to me the high earners (the bulk of the population) "scrape by" (or not) with what little their allowed to keep from the produce of their efforts, while the low earners (or non earners, in some cases; a tiny percent of the population) swindle them out of almost all the fruits of their labor and hoard it amongst themselves, without actually creating anything or performing any service (at least not any that serves anyone but ultimately themselves or each other). That's fair, right?  :hmm:
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: elliebean on November 24, 2010, 04:12:54 PM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"But the idea that you can remove profit without sapping motivation for improvement is not only silly, but historically unsupported.
The idea that you can't remove profit without sapping motivation for improvement is not only silly, but historically untested.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Whitney on November 24, 2010, 05:32:33 PM
Ped, it's very obvious you've never had to run or manage a business.  First off, your boss goes out and finds people to pay him for the services or products you produce and your boss needs to get paid too (and probably works very hard trying to find income sources).  Then you have overhead costs like electricity, water, internet, phone, paper, computers, etc. Companies much bigger than 10 people typically have a dedicated secretary to answer the phones and that must also be covered through the money brought in by employees who are directly producing the product/service.  Not to mention that companies need to maintain profit to put into savings so that when the economy takes a dip they don't have to lay off employees.

So, it is necessary that you get paid less than what you produce in order for the company that hired you to exist and if you aren't able or motivated enough to find self employment opportunities this is simply a reality you have to face no matter what kind of economic system you are under.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Whitney on November 24, 2010, 06:03:07 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"You do know that temps are supposed to be more expensive than ye old regular workers..? It's only natural that when you need people on short notice and possibly have a deadline to meet, that those you hire for short periods of time know that they can squeeze quite a bit out of you. An exception is high unemployment. Then you don't have to pay more than the average within a profession - if that.

I'm wondering if he has a business that somehow does not require he own any tools or equipment that can break.  Because if he did and his contract workers are using that equipment (which, btw, would technically makes them a temp employee rather than contract...affecting tax withholding) then it is bad math to split the profits equally with the workers since that profit needs to be put in business savings for when the equipment breaks.  The only time splitting profits equally could make good business sense is if two self employed individuals equally pursue a job in a collaborative effort, both using their own equipment, and both attending sales (or similar meetings).
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 24, 2010, 11:25:11 PM
Quote from: "elliebean"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"But the idea that you can remove profit without sapping motivation for improvement is not only silly, but historically unsupported.
The idea that you can't remove profit without sapping motivation for improvement is not only silly, but historically untested.

Untested?  I suppose the USSR and its attendant bloc was capitalist?

inb4: "not real socialism".  Of course not. "Real" socialism, like "real" libertarianism, is unobtainable, because both systems ignore human nature.  This is, it should be noted, exactly my point.

Not to mention, it's a No True Scotsman.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 05:37:31 AM
Quote from: "Whitney"So, it is necessary that you get paid less than what you produce in order for the company that hired you.

so you agree with me!
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 05:48:48 AM
QuoteI'm wondering if he has a business that somehow does not require he own any tools or equipment that can break
.  
 
the tools for my trade are easily made by myself.

Quote(which, btw, would technically makes them a temp employee rather than contract...affecting tax withholding)

it would make them subcontractors. clearly you dont own your own business. are you familiar with stockholm syndrome?

QuoteBecause if he did and his contract workers are using that equipment  then it is bad math to split the profits equally with the workers since that profit needs to be put in business savings for when the equipment breaks.  

 who says that isnt taken into account? we're talking about profits not eletricity, fuel costs, broken equipment, paper, etc. thats taken care over before profit is calculated. its obvious you understand little about business.

QuoteThe only time splitting profits equally could make good business sense is if two self employed individuals equally pursue a job in a collaborative effort, both using their own equipment, and both attending sales (or similar meetings).

again gross income and profit are two different things. is you're whole arguement going to come down to a strawman?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 05:53:25 AM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Whitney"So, it is necessary that you get paid less than what you produce in order for the company that hired you.

so you agree with me!

Qoute-mining: Fifteen yards, and the loss of down.  

At this point, you're losing audience, due to obvious bullshittery.  Perhaps next time you'll have enough honesty to address her entire post.

I doubt it, though.  hth.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 05:57:15 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Ad homineim attacks are the surest sign of a weak argument.  Why don't you answer the point, instead of the source?

Assuming, of course, that you can glean the point.

i cannot, would you care to explain it to me?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: SSY on November 25, 2010, 05:59:52 AM
Quote from: "elliebean"
Quote from: "Wilson"Question:  Would you rather live in a society where everybody is scraping by, just enough to eat simple meals, minimal shelter, but everybody is in pretty much the same boat.  Or .. a society where there are large differences in economic level between the high earners and the low earners, the low earners have just enough to eat and minimal shelter, the high earners live in luxury.
I wish those were the only two options. What of those who have not enough to eat and no shelter?

Anyway, as to "high earners" and "low earners": to 'earn' means to work for something or produce something valuable, does it not? You contribute something; you get something back, ideally of equal value. It seems to me the high earners (the bulk of the population) "scrape by" (or not) with what little their allowed to keep from the produce of their efforts, while the low earners (or non earners, in some cases; a tiny percent of the population) swindle them out of almost all the fruits of their labor and hoard it amongst themselves, without actually creating anything or performing any service (at least not any that serves anyone but ultimately themselves or each other). That's fair, right?  :hmm:

If, by non earners, you mean business owners and the like, they do provide a valuable service. They will have invested start up costs to buy the machines (etc) that the workers use, something your average factory worker would not be able (or perhaps willing) to do. In doing this, they expose themselves to personal risk. The language you use is very emotive, unfortunately, I feel it may be emotive, in place of a cogent argument.

As with evolution, it seems the people opposed to it, lack understanding of some of the finer points of what they argue against (though I freely admit, most likely any socialist would call me ignorant of their beliefs). I don't mean to be condescending, but to me, the parallel is quite striking.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 06:00:04 AM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Ad homineim attacks are the surest sign of a weak argument.  Why don't you answer the point, instead of the source?

Assuming, of course, that you can glean the point.

i cannot, would you care to explain it to me?

No.  I insist on speaking only with people smart enough to understand what I am saying.  Either you do, or -- as is apparently the case here -- you don't.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:01:37 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Whitney"So, it is necessary that you get paid less than what you produce in order for the company that hired you.

so you agree with me!

Qoute-mining: Fifteen yards, and the loss of down.  

At this point, you're losing audience, due to obvious bullshittery.  Perhaps next time you'll have enough honesty to address her entire post.

I doubt it, though.  hth.

my alligence is to reason not popularity. her entire post was summerized by her point that i quoted, which happens to be the point of the OP. what exactly would you like me to address in there? gross income - overhead = profit. so the rest of the post is irrelevant.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:02:46 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Ad homineim attacks are the surest sign of a weak argument.  Why don't you answer the point, instead of the source?

Assuming, of course, that you can glean the point.

i cannot, would you care to explain it to me?

No.  I insist on speaking only with people smart enough to understand what I am saying.  Either you do, or -- as is apparently the case here -- you don't.

conversely has it occured to you that you're the one not getting it? or are you just simply all out and now relying on mudslinging?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:09:25 AM
Quote from: "SSY"If, by non earners, you mean business owners and the like, they do provide a valuable service. They will have invested start up costs to buy the machines (etc) that the workers use, something your average factory worker would not be able

because the only ones who have the ability to make a positive profit are the ones who already own the means of production?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 06:11:15 AM
Quote from: "ped"my alligence is to reason not popularity.

Were that the case, you'd try to understand the reason why people do things.

Quoteher entire post was summerized by her point that i quoted, which happens to be the point of the OP.

Not so: the rest of that clause:

Quote from: "Whitney"if you aren't able or motivated enough to find self employment opportunities this is simply a reality you have to face no matter what kind of economic system you are under.

... is substantive enough to warrant serious addressment.  You, however, ignored it, because it undercuts your argument.  Ergo, quote-mining.

Quotewhat exactly would you like me to address in there? gross income - overhead = profit. so the rest of the post is irrelevant.

You have yet to address my basic point: how would you motivate creation, invention, and industry without the incentive to profit?

Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"No.  I insist on speaking only with people smart enough to understand what I am saying.  Either you do, or -- as is apparently the case here -- you don't.

conversely has it occured to you that you're the one not getting it? or are you just simply all out and now relying on mudslinging?

No, I'm not "all out"; I'm awaiting your reply.  How does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?  When you provide a cogent answer, you'll get a non-snarky reply.  Until then, you will get what you give.  The onus is on you.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:13:47 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "ped"my alligence is to reason not popularity.

Were that the case, you'd try to understand the reason why people do things.

Quoteher entire post was summerized by her point that i quoted, which happens to be the point of the OP.

Not so: the rest of that clause:

Quote from: "Whitney"if you aren't able or motivated enough to find self employment opportunities this is simply a reality you have to face no matter what kind of economic system you are under.

... is substantive enough to warrant serious addressment.  You, however, ignored it, because it undercuts your argument.  Ergo, quote-mining.

Quotewhat exactly would you like me to address in there? gross income - overhead = profit. so the rest of the post is irrelevant.

You have yet to address my basic point: how would you motivate creation, invention, and industry without the incentive to profit?

Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"No.  I insist on speaking only with people smart enough to understand what I am saying.  Either you do, or -- as is apparently the case here -- you don't.

conversely has it occured to you that you're the one not getting it? or are you just simply all out and now relying on mudslinging?

No, I'm not "all out"; I'm awaiting your reply.  How does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?  When you provide a cogent answer, Iyou'll get a non-snarky reply.  Until then, you will get what you give.  The onus is on you.

im still waiting on you to explain the neal peart quote itself.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:17:45 AM
QuoteYou have yet to address my basic point: how would you motivate creation, invention, and industry without the incentive to profit?

so you concede there is a real profit outside of business expenses? great! so we can move on to address how that isnt exploiting those without the mean of production.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 06:18:56 AM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"No, I'm not "all out"; I'm awaiting your reply.  How does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?  When you provide a cogent answer, Iyou'll get a non-snarky reply.  Until then, you will get what you give.  The onus is on you.

i thought you were done? im still waiting on you to explain the neal peart quote.

You denigrated it.  You must explain why you did so.  If you don't even understand what it is that you denigrated, what does that say?  

You must actually think.  I shan't do it for you.  Go re-read the quote, and ponder what it says.  It'll do you good!
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:23:07 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"No, I'm not "all out"; I'm awaiting your reply.  How does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?  When you provide a cogent answer, Iyou'll get a non-snarky reply.  Until then, you will get what you give.  The onus is on you.

i thought you were done? im still waiting on you to explain the neal peart quote.

You denigrated it.  You must explain why you did so.  If you don't even understand what it is that you denigrated, what does that say?  

You must actually think.  I shan't do it for you.  Go re-read the quote, and ponder what it says.  It'll do you good!

if you remember right i did not denigrate the quote i used an ad hom attack against neal peart himself.  you posted it, if you cannot explain the quote and it relevance here i have to assume its sheer nonsense.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 06:26:09 AM
Quote from: "ped"if you remember right i did not denigrate the quote i used an ad hom attack against neal peart himself. if you cannot explain the quote and it relevance here i have to assume its sheer nonsense.

Hey, I did so in plain English in my last post:

QuoteHow does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?

I am, of course, assuming you can think metaphorically.  I will not think for you, and if you refuse this time to answer, I will regard you as a nonsense artist and move on to other, more remunerative tasks.  such as farming dental floss.  

Ball's in your court, compadre.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: SSY on November 25, 2010, 06:33:42 AM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "SSY"If, by non earners, you mean business owners and the like, they do provide a valuable service. They will have invested start up costs to buy the machines (etc) that the workers use, something your average factory worker would not be able

because the only ones who have the ability to make a positive profit are the ones who already own the means of production?

They could take out a massive loan, they could save their wages, several people could come together to form a partnership. Many, many businesses are founded on a shoe string budget.

Edit, is that what you were asking? Your question is unclear.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 06:49:10 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "ped"if you remember right i did not denigrate the quote i used an ad hom attack against neal peart himself. if you cannot explain the quote and it relevance here i have to assume its sheer nonsense.

Hey, I did so in plain English in my last post:

QuoteHow does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?

I am, of course, assuming you can think metaphorically.  I will not think for you, and if you refuse this time to answer, I will regard you as a nonsense artist and move on to other, more remunerative tasks.  such as farming dental floss.  

Ball's in your court, compadre.


lol still havent explained the metaphor and its relevance here. i can only assume you dont actually get it yourself.



and since you like metaphors heres one for you

Quotethe blue moon rises when the lights go bright

brilliant, huh! but if you dont get it im not doing your thinking for you...
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 07:02:38 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Hey, I did so in plain English in my last post:

QuoteHow does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?

I am, of course, assuming you can think metaphorically.  I will not think for you, and if you refuse this time to answer, I will regard you as a nonsense artist and move on to other, more remunerative tasks.  such as farming dental floss.  

Ball's in your court, compadre.


Quote from: "ped"lol still havent explained the metaphor and its relevance here. i can only assume you dont actually get it yourself.

Quotethe blue moon rises when the lights go bright

if you dont get it than im not doing you're thinking for you and im going home, mmmk!

Very well.  You refuse to answer?  I refuse to play.  G'night.

eta: one more chance to change a mind lost to you.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 07:10:58 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Hey, I did so in plain English in my last post:

QuoteHow does cutting down all the Trees raise the average height of the forest?

I am, of course, assuming you can think metaphorically.  I will not think for you, and if you refuse this time to answer, I will regard you as a nonsense artist and move on to other, more remunerative tasks.  such as farming dental floss.  

Ball's in your court, compadre.


Quote from: "ped"lol still havent explained the metaphor and its relevance here. i can only assume you dont actually get it yourself.

Quotethe blue moon rises when the lights go bright

if you dont get it than im not doing you're thinking for you and im going home, mmmk!

Very well.  You refuse to answer?  I refuse to play.  G'night.

eta: one more chance to change a mind lost to you.

sooo weird, i once had a JW utter almost that exact same thing to me!
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 07:15:26 AM
Like I said, g'night.  You're obviously a waste of time.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 07:18:00 AM
.........
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 07:20:04 AM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Like I said, g'night.  You're obviously a waste of time.

its all good, i suppose i understand if you're too proud to outright concede.  ;)
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 07:22:58 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi53.tinypic.com%2F15iaq00.jpg&hash=5fe9eaad2558297015ed8fb2ce383e070425d7b2)
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 07:25:30 AM
hey what are you doing i thought you were done?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Wilson on November 25, 2010, 07:50:12 AM
All that he said then I said crap is really boring.

Let me ask you, ped, seriously:  What sort of economic system do you suggest?  Please be specific.  Let's see if you're a serious thinker on this subject - or just like to stir the pot.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: elliebean on November 25, 2010, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: "SSY"The language you use is very emotive, unfortunately, I feel it may be emotive, in place of a cogent argument.
Fair enough. I don't make many cogent arguments  anymore because I've got the drain bamage.  :drool

QuoteAs with evolution, it seems the people opposed to it, lack understanding of some of the finer points of what they argue against (though I freely admit, most likely any socialist would call me ignorant of their beliefs). I don't mean to be condescending, but to me, the parallel is quite striking.
Yeah, it's equally striking from the other side of the argument.

I'm not a socialist though, I'm an anarcho-communist.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 08:16:46 AM
Quote from: "Wilson"All that he said then I said crap is really boring.

Let me ask you, ped, seriously:  What sort of economic system do you suggest?  Please be specific.  Let's see if you're a serious thinker on this subject - or just like to stir the pot.


he left because he cant back an inane metaphor.


Let me ask you, Wilson, seriously:  If we dont have christianity what sort of moral system do you suggest? please be specific. Let's see if you're a serious thinker on this subject - or just like to stir the pot.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Stevil on November 25, 2010, 10:16:26 AM
Lets say I start up a business

I decide that I want to make lemonade. So I put my life's savings into it. I buy a lemon squeezing machine, I buy lots of lemons, sugar and whatever else is needed to make lemonade. I pay all the expenses incurred in starting up a company, getting a trademark for the name, advertising and building a brand. So far I am making huge losses but that is expected. I am hoping to make a profit down the road once established in the market, hopefully my life savings wont run out before I am able to start making profits.

Since I am busy starting up the business, producing advertising campains and finding distributors etc as well as making the lemonade, I find that I don't have time to clean the lemon squeezing machine. Its simple enough to do, just takes 1 hour per day, a hose down and wipe. So I go to the job market and try to find someone to do this for me. I find someone that seems capable and trustworthy that is willing to work for minimum wage. They do the work and I pay them the agreed wage.

Lets say my company turns out to be hugely successful and I make a small fortune, the person that is cleaning my lemon squeezing machine finds out how much profit I am making and demands substantially more money.
Should I:
A) Share the profits with my lemon squeezing machine cleaner in a ratio that is proportionate to the profits that my business makes
B) Hire someone else that is willing to clean my lemon squeezing machine for minimum wage

If I went down path B, should I feel guilty for exploiting the person cleaning my lemon squeezing machine or feel proud that my company is successful and I am providing income for another person as well as making myself wealthy?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 12:17:22 PM
you should feel proud that you have helped out someone so obviously in need with your generosity. without your great business sense they wouldnt otherwise have anything. surely thats why they agreed to working for whatever they could get in the first place. if there were a heaven you'd definitely be going! in fact it might make even more business sense to simply allow them to live on you property and provide them with some food in exchange for their work. maybe get them to do other chores while they're at it. that would free up more time to complain on the internet about the amount of taxes you have to pay to the big bad guberment.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: The Magic Pudding on November 25, 2010, 12:24:14 PM
United States Department of Labor
Quote* For work performed prior to July 24, 2007, the federal minimum wage is $5.15 per hour.

    * For work performed from July 24, 2007 to July 23, 2008, the federal minimum wage is $5.85 per hour.

    * For work performed from July 24, 2008 to July 23, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour.

    * For work performed on or after July 24, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

Didn't the slave owners complain about the cost of keeping slaves, have to feed them, they get old and you still have to feed them.
This minimum wage isn't much better, business slows down, or they grow old just lay them off.

Quote3 Jun 2010 ... Fair Work Australia announced the change to the $544 minimum wage in Melbourne today, bringing it up to $570 a week, or $15 per hour.

$7.25 doesn't seem like a fair thing to me, better than $5.15 I suppose.  Poverty must motivate people to do better, but what problems does it cause?
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Asmodean on November 25, 2010, 01:07:29 PM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"At this point, you're losing audience, due to obvious bullshittery
Lost me a long time ago...

Some people are not interested in a discussion, only on insisting that their beliefs and/or ways and/or understanding are correct and going in circles when challenged... I think the OP may be one such. Of course, it could have just been my impression of this thread, but I'm very rarely just plain wrong. (No more offence intended than that given by calling a bald guy bald  :P )
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: SSY on November 25, 2010, 01:45:02 PM
Quote from: "ped"you should feel proud that you have helped out someone so obviously in need with your generosity. without your great business sense they wouldnt otherwise have anything. surely thats why they agreed to working for whatever they could get in the first place. if there were a heaven you'd definitely be going! in fact it might make even more business sense to simply allow them to live on you property and provide them with some food in exchange for their work. maybe get them to do other chores while they're at it. that would free up more time to complain on the internet about the amount of taxes you have to pay to the big bad guberment.

Welcome to Trolldom, population, you.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: "Asmodean"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"At this point, you're losing audience, due to obvious bullshittery
Lost me a long time ago...

Some people are not interested in a discussion, only on insisting that their beliefs and/or ways and/or understanding are correct and going in circles when challenged... I think the OP may be one such. Of course, it could have just been my impression of this thread, but I'm very rarely just plain wrong. (No more offence intended than that given by calling a bald guy bald  :blink:
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 02:19:34 PM
Quote from: "SSY"
Quote from: "ped"you should feel proud that you have helped out someone so obviously in need with your generosity. without your great business sense they wouldnt otherwise have anything. surely thats why they agreed to working for whatever they could get in the first place. if there were a heaven you'd definitely be going! in fact it might make even more business sense to simply allow them to live on you property and provide them with some food in exchange for their work. maybe get them to do other chores while they're at it. that would free up more time to complain on the internet about the amount of taxes you have to pay to the big bad guberment.

Welcome to Trolldom, population, you.


better yet why not just move your business to indonesia where you dont have to pay US minimum wage, you could pay $.20 a hour therefore making even more profit? those people are much more in need of your greatness and therefore willing to do your work for 40X less!
also why waste your time wipping your own ass when you could go down to the labor market and pay a guy minimum wage to do it for you? afterall, you're a business man and your time is valuble...plus its just gross anyway. and hey you're doing someone a favor at the same time! better yet maybe you can find some homeless person willing to work under the table for $.01 a wipe! heck maybe you could free up enough time to clean your own lemonaide machine, who knows.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 02:33:30 PM
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Wilson"All that he said then I said crap is really boring.

Let me ask you, ped, seriously:  What sort of economic system do you suggest?  Please be specific.  Let's see if you're a serious thinker on this subject - or just like to stir the pot.


he left because he cant back an inane metaphor.

Actually, I left because discussing this with you is quite obviously a waste of time because you refuse to discuss in good faith.  Hope you feel better.  :)
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "ped"
Quote from: "Wilson"All that he said then I said crap is really boring.

Let me ask you, ped, seriously:  What sort of economic system do you suggest?  Please be specific.  Let's see if you're a serious thinker on this subject - or just like to stir the pot.


he left because he cant back an inane metaphor.

Actually, I left because discussing this with you is quite obviously a waste of time because you refuse to discuss my faith.  Hope you feel better.  :)

yep
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on November 25, 2010, 02:51:24 PM
Thump's Corollary to Godwin's Law:

QuoteIn any argument between atheists, the likelihood of one of them accusing the other of being similar to religionists is directly proportional to the duration of the argument.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: ped on November 25, 2010, 03:00:19 PM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Thump's Corollary to Godwin's Law:

QuoteIn any argument between atheists, the likelihood of one of them accusing the other of being similar to religionists is directly proportional to the duration of the argument.

well that closes it, calling on a corollary to godwin's law must mean the parallel is baseless.



Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"one more chance to change a mind lost to you
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Stevil on November 25, 2010, 06:15:10 PM
Quote from: "ped"better yet why not just move your business to indonesia where you dont have to pay US minimum wage, you could pay $.20 a hour therefore making even more profit? those people are much more in need of your greatness and therefore willing to do your work for 40X less!
also why waste your time wipping your own ass when you could go down to the labor market and pay a guy minimum wage to do it for you? afterall, you're a business man and your time is valuble...plus its just gross anyway. and hey you're doing someone a favor at the same time! better yet maybe you can find some homeless person willing to work under the table for $.01 a wipe! heck maybe you could free up enough time to clean your own lemonaide machine, who knows.

Surprisingly, you do make good business sense when suggesting that the manufacturing part of the business move to a more cost efficient country. Minimum wage is an issue hence I really do need to look outside the square in order to lower costs and increase profit, if I didn't do this then potentially someone noticing the success of my buisness may startup their own business to compete against me and do just that, they would then be able to undercut me on the local retail market, I would no longer be competitive and would have to close down my business and unfortunately tell my lemon squeezing machine cleaner that I cannot employ them any more.
But of course that wouldn't happen, I have the smarts to recognise this threat and move my manufacturing offshore preemptively. I am running a business after all and want it to be successful. Since the manufacturing is now offshore I cannot possibly make the lemonade myself so as well as hiring an offshore lemon squeezing machine cleaner, I would also need to hire an offshore person to make the lemonade. With the cost of labour there this would be possible. Actually it is now possible to easily expand my business 10 fold, I could easily hire 10 times the people, make 10 times the product and maybe expand my markets to sell the stuff in Asia and the South Pacific.
If I was to look at my efforts not in a business sense but in a sense of the good I am injecting into the world I could be happy that I am employing 10 people now in a country where income is extremely hard to come by. Some of the profits and wages are going to tax in this country which deperately needs funds to pay for basic infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, roads, water and the like. If I still felt the desire to add more into this world I could also seek out worthy charities in which to help fund with the enormous profits that I am now making. This makes me feel quite at ease that I had to lay off my original lemon squeezing machine cleaner. Hell, if I had kept the business onshore I may have only been able to employ them for a few more months until my business went under due to the competition anyway.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Wilson on November 25, 2010, 06:48:35 PM
Quote from: "ped"Let me ask you, Wilson, seriously:  If we dont have christianity what sort of moral system do you suggest? please be specific. Let's see if you're a serious thinker on this subject - or just like to stir the pot.

ped, believe me, I have a very well thought out concept of morality - what it is, why we are moral creatures, how there is no absolute morality, and so on - and I'd be happy to discuss it in detail - but obviously that's not what this thread is about.  

Come on, man.  It takes no talent to knock certain details of our capitalist system, and there's plenty to criticize.  But grow a pair and tell us what you would replace it with.  Don't be a coward.
Title: Re: capitalism = exploitation
Post by: Prometheus on July 02, 2012, 08:37:59 AM
"Wow, that escalated quickly"