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does "free will" actually exist?

Started by yepimonfire, December 22, 2011, 09:25:10 AM

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Tank

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 23, 2011, 08:18:30 PM
Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:09:07 PM
You have no active role in controlling it.  Is that what you're saying?
No. That is not at all what I am saying.

"I" AM the bloody body. Of course I can ontrol what it does. I'm it. It's me. We are one and the same.

Ok.  But if your body is composed of atoms and molecules, such as neurons are, and that matter functions according to the laws of physics, then wouldn't the laws of physics control your body?
No they wouldn't. Atoms are building blocks of a body in the same way that a brick is a component of a building. Put enough bricks together in the right way and you get a house. Put atoms together in the right way and you get a body. 'Houseness', is an emergent property of correctly assembled bricks. Life is an emergent property of correctly assembled atoms.

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:23:43 PM
And if they don't , then you're admitting there's something within your body which is exempt from the cause-effect laws of physics.  How could that be?  Unless, it was something immaterial?
Your logic is flawed because your presumption is that inanimate atoms cannot build an animate body.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Crow on December 23, 2011, 08:21:29 PM
Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:09:07 PM
Ok.  So you simply observe your body doing things, and "I" is a reference to your body.  You have no active role in controlling it.  Is that what you're saying?


Count to 10 slowly and take deep breaths  :D
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Quote from: Tank on December 23, 2011, 08:36:20 PM
Your logic is flawed because your presumption is that inanimate atoms cannot build an animate body.
I never understood the need some people have to separate body and mind... Mind is a function of the body - there is, to the very best of my knowledge, nothing to indicate otherwise.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Light

I don't see how my logic is flawed.  Determinism arouse because philosophers assumed that if the laws of physics control all matter, than they would presumably control matter  everywhere it exists, even in the brain.

Are you saying matter in the brain is exempt from these laws?

Stevil

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 07:50:56 PM
You don't believe in free-will, yet you keep referring to the immaterial concept of "I", which is a reference to your own sense of agency and freedom of control over your actions.
"I" is the way I refer to the instance of the long running process operating the body/brain that is typing this post. It is purely a result of a physical system of energy/matter.

Light

Quote from: Stevil on December 23, 2011, 08:46:47 PM
Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 07:50:56 PM
You don't believe in free-will, yet you keep referring to the immaterial concept of "I", which is a reference to your own sense of agency and freedom of control over your actions.
"I" is the way I refer to the instance of the long running process operating the body/brain that is typing this post. It is purely a result of a physical system of energy/matter.

Ok.  So then you believe the function of your consciousness is to simply observe your body doing things?  It plays no actual role in operating your body?

Light

#51
I guess it would be so then too, that* I'm having a conversation with matter and energy, interesting...  materialism is just fascinating, isn't it?

Asmodean

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:48:39 PM
Ok.  So then you believe the function of your consciousness is to simply observe your body doing things?  It plays no actual role in operating your body?
Yeah. I let Old Rusty's steering wheel just observe the rest of Old Rusty drive about. It plays no actual role... Oh wait! I aint dead yet... And neither is Rusty. Weird, isn't it?

Consciousness is a process of the body. In some cases, it is involved in active decision making processes, but in many cases, it doesn't even observe the body doing things.

How long has it been, for instance, since your consciousness observed you turn beer into piss?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Asmodean

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
I guess it would be so then too, that* I'm having a conversation with matter and energy, interesting...  materialism is just fascinating, isn't it?
Yes, this conversation boiled down to its simple components is nothing more than matter and energy interacting and changing states. What did you think it was..? The will of YHWH?  ::)

Oh! By the way, "will" is a function of the body too, so... What DID you think it was?  ???
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Stevil

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
I guess it would be so then too, that* I'm having a conversation with matter and energy, interesting...  materialism is just fascinating, isn't it?
This is exactly the case, we are a bunch of matter and energy, that walks and talks. It really is quite fascinating how this has happened and hopefully one day science can discover how inanimate objects have become animated.
If theism had its way we would stop looking and instead praise a god or two.
But I like the discovery process.

Light

#55
nm that.

Tank

Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:44:50 PM
I don't see how my logic is flawed.  Determinism arouse because philosophers assumed that if the laws of physics control all matter, than they would presumably control matter  everywhere it exists, even in the brain.

Are you saying matter in the brain is exempt from these laws?
philosophers assumed says it all really. The brain is exempt from the detailed laws of physics in the same way a car is exempt from the detailed laws of chemical interaction. The brain exploits the chemical and electrochemical laws to be a brain. It is not controlled by the laws, it functions because it is constructed of atoms and molecules and exploits those laws but is not a hostage to them. Recall the relationship between a brick and a house.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Light

Quote from: Tank on December 23, 2011, 09:04:50 PM
Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 08:44:50 PM
I don't see how my logic is flawed.  Determinism arouse because philosophers assumed that if the laws of physics control all matter, than they would presumably control matter  everywhere it exists, even in the brain.

Are you saying matter in the brain is exempt from these laws?
philosophers assumed says it all really. The brain is exempt from the detailed laws of physics in the same way a car is exempt from the detailed laws of chemical interaction. The brain exploits the chemical and electrochemical laws to be a brain. It is not controlled by the laws, it functions because it is constructed of atoms and molecules and exploits those laws but is not a hostage to them. Recall the relationship between a brick and a house.

This is a pretty interesting insight.