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"What we know about abuse by clergy . . . "

Started by Sandra Craft, March 08, 2019, 07:54:06 AM

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Sandra Craft

Another interesting article by Valerie Tarico:

What We Know About Abuse by the Clergy -- For Starters, Homosexual Priests and Modern Sexual Norms Are Not the Problem

I know "well, duh" is an immediate reaction to that but she brings up many good points about abuse and abusers in general, such as this one:

QuoteRather than being on the lookout for monsters or trying to terrify evildoers into submission, we need to assume that all good people are going to do some bad things, and that some good people are going to do very bad things. It is our job as a collective, as a community, to make that difficult—not just by threatening after-the-fact punishments and hoping the deterrent suffices, but by taking steps that are preventive.

One thing I wish she had gone into more (tho perhaps out of the scope of this post tho she did touch on it) was that the overwhelming majority of known abuse takes place in the home, usually inflicted by a relative or at least a trusted family friend.  What can be done to make such abuse more inconvenient for the abuser, since that seems the only deterrent that actually works?
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

#1
Post-hoc punishment probably doesn't stop many bad people from doing bad things because no bad person does a bad thing expecting to be caught or cares about being caught. Therefore the punishment is not an effective deterrent. If it were there would be no prisons or prisoners on Earth.

Personally I think the way societies deal with child abuse (note I did not say paedophilia) is wrong. We spend not a penny preventing or researching the causes of child abuse, that's the problem. If we knew why child abuse happens we could spend the money we would punishing child abusers on preventing the abuse before it happens. We may spend less money or more money but the point is there would be no (or less) victims.

But can you imagine a politician ever standing up and saying that? The tabloid headline would be "Fred Politician supports the rights of paedophiles to be treated as human beings!"
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2019, 09:15:41 AM
Post-hoc punishment probably doesn't stop many bad people from doing bad things because no bad person does a bad thing expecting to be caught or cares about being caught. Therefore the punishment is not an effective deterrent. If it were there would be no prisons or prisoners on Earth.

I'd steal stuff but the threat of punishment deters me.
I drink, I'd rather toke but the punishment deters me.

"bad" isn't a very good choice of word.
Fixated?
"because no bad person does a bad thing expecting to be caught or cares about being caught"
That's rubbish, they care about being caught.
Therefore punishment is an effective deterrent 'cause most of us aren't in jail.  :)

You have the addicted to kiddies chaps, they'll risk the penalties 'cause they must but they care about the consequences.
There will be the Machiavellian spiders, they'll also care about being caught, they'll work it so they won't be, join the church perhaps.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Tank

"That's rubbish, they care about being caught."

But not enough to stop them doing it.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
"That's rubbish, they care about being caught."

But not enough to stop them doing it.

And that's the problem -- nobody wants to be caught, but too many are willing to gamble with the risk anyway.  Since punishment isn't making the gamble less worthwhile, what will make it not worth the risk?
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Bluenose

I think a large part of the problem is the way authorities, especially the various churches have dealt with this issue over the years.  For the most part these people (those in authority) have been more concerned with protecting the reputation of the organisation than with actively dealing with the perpetrators.  So we have had bishops moving priests on to new parishes and so on.  It has been treated as a matter of embarrassment rather than a criminal act.  The perps know this and have felt that the likely consequences of being caught are so minor as to be inconsequential.  I understand that criminal sanctions do not completely prevent crime, but society needs to signal clearly that this behaviour is unacceptable and will be punished.  I also take the point that we as a society should devote more resources to try and prevent these crimes from happening in the first place.  It is not an either/or situations, we need to do both.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Bad Penny II

Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
"That's rubbish, they care about being caught."

But not enough to stop them doing it.

No not enough for the ones that do it.
Enough for the ones that are deterred.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 08, 2019, 08:42:09 PM
And that's the problem -- nobody wants to be caught,

Some might, they don't like what they're doing, they can't stop themselves, being caught is an option.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Tank

Quote from: Bad Penny II on March 09, 2019, 01:08:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
"That's rubbish, they care about being caught."

But not enough to stop them doing it.

No not enough for the ones that do it.
Enough for the ones that are deterred.

Quite so.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.