Happy Atheist Forum

Religion => Religion => Topic started by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

Title: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:02:51 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Not: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.
Fuck Islam. It's the most degenerate religioin that has ever existed. It was created by a pedophile, child rapist conman and the sooner it is eradicted from the world the better.

Welcome to HAF.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 09:05:16 AM
Hello, Fatih.

I suspect a Christian would say something similar and opposite, that his older version is better than your new one. Then those of the Jewish faith . . . Not to mention the even older Buddhism, shamanism, animalism . . .

But the atheist looks on a sees, basically, the same faith in all three Abrahamic beliefs, based on very human psychology and values (both in the love and the hatred they evoke) and shake their heads in despair.


"My god is better than your god (even if it is the same invisible, incorporate entity.)"

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:08:01 AM
"I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you."

Your religion is an assault on humanity. You won't be attacked but your religion is not you. You support a grossly sexist arragant religion that inspires terrorist behaviour in a minority of it's followers and willful ignorance in all of them. Islam is a disgusting blight on humanity.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:15:36 AM
This rule applies to you:

Quote
NO PREACHING:  While everyone is welcome to discuss their views in a civil manner, this forum is not a podium for those that only wish to preach.  This rule applies to atheists and theists alike. Preaching means stating your beliefs without providing evidence.  If directly asked what you believe you may answer but it would then become against the rules if you were to then refuse to back up your views objectively when honestly challenged.  This means that if you want to use your religious text to prove your deity, for instance, you will also need to be prepared to prove that your religious text is an objective source of evidence.

Be aware the Quran is not considered evidence here, anymore than the Bible would be for a Christian.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:23:26 AM
"However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion."

Why not? Do you not accept freedom?  Do you condone the killing of apostates?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:28:56 AM
"I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable."

Mohamed (piss be upon him) accepted the old testament into Islamic lore. Thus, by your estimate. making Islam also Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: No one on March 24, 2018, 10:55:46 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
Fuck Islam. It's the most degenerate religion that has ever existed. It was created by a pedophile, child rapist conman and the sooner it is eradicated from the world the better.

Your religion is an assault on humanity. You won't be attacked but your religion is not you. You support a grossly sexist arrogant religion that inspires terrorist behavior in a minority of it's followers and willful ignorance in all of them. Islam is a disgusting blight on humanity.

Mohamed (piss be upon him) accepted the old testament into Islamic lore. Thus, by your estimate. making Islam also Unbelievable.


Don't hold back Tank, tell us how you really feel. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.stardock.net%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fthemes%2Fdigicons%2FThumbs%2520Up.png&hash=e8ea77880ad2978fd09f5791a5436d85008666d2)

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:08:06 AM
QuoteIt's the most degenerate religioin that has ever existed.
based on exactly what? if just the allegations below, I ll explain them.

QuoteIt was created by a pedophile,
I assume that this allegation bases from the misunderstood or unreliable historical text which says "Aysha (Prophet Muhammed's (Peace upon him) young wife) was a 6-9 years old girl when she was married to Prophet.
All reliable sources and evidences (like "she was 30 years old when Prophet died and they were married for 11 years (30-11=19) clearly shows that Aysha was 16 or 19 years old when she married to Prophet. There is nothing wrong with it.

Quotechild rapist conman
based on what?

Quoteand the sooner it is eradicated from the world the better.
No. Like Quran, which is Miracly protected from all degeneration, Islam itself, with its original message will never go off on earth. It is God's will, and it can not be resist. Evidence for it; after 1500 years, it still enlightens Good people with good intentions.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:15:24 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 09:05:16 AM

"My god is better than your god (even if it is the same invisible, incorporate entity.)"

It is not invisible. It is obvious. All religions sent by Allah (The only God). All prophets send by Allah. Time after time, one after one.
To give the same message.

"There is only one God, Allah,
life is an examination.
If you achieve to be good you will go to heaven, if you fail you will go to hell.
The thing is because Allah's love is 10 times grater than his hate. He says "If you come to me with a sin it will count 1 but if you come to me with a favor it will count 10". Very good deal if you consider...
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:08:01 AM
"I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you."

Your religion is an assault on humanity. You won't be attacked but your religion is not you. You support a grossly sexist arragant religion that inspires terrorist behaviour in a minority of it's followers and willful ignorance in all of them. Islam is a disgusting blight on humanity.

Nope, the sad thing is devil is very successful in his job. Illusions. Show good to bad show bad to good.
Can you imagine a religion whose name is "Peace (Islam)" kill people? How could it be? Don't you think manipulations?

About being grossly sexist: Lets get the answer from Allah himself.
(Some women wished to be man because they are stronger etc. and Allah says). Don't desire to be stronger etc. Men and Women will be equally paid in otherworld for being good or bad (There is no differentiation between them).
Man and Women are equal in Islam considering their role. However they have different abilities that is it.

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:28:46 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:15:36 AM

Be aware the Quran is not considered evidence here, anymore than the Bible would be for a Christian.

Quran should be inspected with a natural eye. Instead of what you want to see, try to get what he wants to show.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 11:34:19 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:15:24 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 09:05:16 AM

"My god is better than your god (even if it is the same invisible, incorporate entity.)"

It is not invisible. It is obvious. All religions sent by Allah (The only God). All prophets send by Allah. Time after time, one after one.
To give the same message.

"There is only one God, Allah,
life is an examination.
If you achieve to be good you will go to heaven, if you fail you will go to hell.
The thing is because Allah's love is 10 times grater than his hate. He says "If you come to me with a sin it will count 1 but if you come to me with a favor it will count 10". Very good deal if you consider...

That is whst you are taught. Please give me an example if your "obvious" god that cannot, in any way, be attributed to chance, human will or intervention, or any other of the myriad things that really cintrol our existence and can be held, measured, deduced from ohyducsl evidence and do forth.

If you cannot satisfy ne in thst respect I will discontinue our vinversation - you seem to have a really serious dose of washed-mind.

And, to echo Tank's assertions: plot all the current violence in the world and you will the more religious a country is the more violent. Also the most ignorant. Explore the backgrounds of the most violent men, you will mostly find some sort of religious belief at the core of their motivation. The only main variation might be nationalism and personal power - but they possibly reside in the same part of the brain as does religion, combine any two of those three and you have real problems for humanity! As is demonstrated in most Muslim countries.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:23:26 AM
"However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion."

Why not? Do you not accept freedom?  Do you condone the killing of apostates?
You missed this one. You support an ideaology that want's me dead.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:35:17 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:23:26 AM
"However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion."

Why not? Do you not accept freedom?  Do you condone the killing of apostates?

I have chosen freedom in my real life (after life), instead of the dream which is called this life.
The freedome, drink, sex etc in this life continues at most for 60 years or something. And I traded this dream to eternal life of having all fun.. (including sex (with much beautiful girls) and drink (without headache and nausea etc.) that is it.

QuoteDo you condone the killing of apostates?
Our prophet Muhammad (P.U.H) never killed a person because he is not in his religion or he has another believe.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: No one on March 24, 2018, 11:35:24 AM
Quick question Issy, if the universe actually has a creator, why does it give two shits about such insignificant pests?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:42:36 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:28:46 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:15:36 AM

Be aware the Quran is not considered evidence here, anymore than the Bible would be for a Christian.

Quran should be inspected with a natural eye. Instead of what you want to see, try to get what he wants to show.
Bullshit. The quran is the product of a conman, Mohemed (piss be upon him). He was the Donald Trump of his age. Trump's message is 'Make America great again'. Mohameds (piss be upon him) polititical agenda revolved around 'Make the Aabs great again!' on all the gullible illiterates around rallied to his cry, just like the dumber Americans have done with Trump.

Islam is a pernitious mind virus that when mixed with a particular type of paranoid psychopathic human leads to the ISIS mentality we see all around the world today. The sooner Islam is whiped from the Earth the better.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:43:10 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 11:34:19 AM

That is whst you are taught. Please give me an example if your "obvious" god that cannot, in any way, be attributed to chance, human will or intervention, or any other of the myriad things that really cintrol our existence and can be held, measured, deduced from ohyducsl evidence and do forth.


First of all Proving existence of Allah (God) is not a religious think. It is the area of the science "Logic".

First truth: Every complex thing has an Architect.
Second truth: Universe is the most complex thing.
Ergo: Universe has the most intelligent Architect.

That is it.

however you believe him or not, that is your choice...
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 11:35:24 AM
Quick question Issy, if the universe actually has a creator, why does it give two shits about such insignificant pests?

first of all I don't like to be called issy, because it sounds like ishid which is a terrorist association I hate.

the second thing I didn't get what you meant with "why does it give two shits about such insignificant pests?"
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:53:26 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:08:06 AM
QuoteIt's the most degenerate religioin that has ever existed.
based on exactly what? if just the allegations below, I ll explain them.
Everything it stands for. In perticular the destruction of human freedom.

QuoteIt was created by a pedophile,
I assume that this allegation bases from the misunderstood or unreliable historical text which says "Aysha (Prophet Muhammed's (Peace upon him) young wife) was a 6-9 years old girl when she was married to Prophet.
All reliable sources and evidences (like "she was 30 years old when Prophet died and they were married for 11 years (30-11=19) clearly shows that Aysha was 16 or 19 years old when she married to Prophet. There is nothing wrong with it.[/quote]
Saudia Arabia is the home of Islam. It draws masivly on Islam as the foundation of it's laws. More than any country on Earth SA is the poster boy of Islam. There is no age of consent in SA. As long as the child is 'married' to their rapist/abusor he (whatever his age) can fuck her as many times as he likes  and she can not stop him. Mohamed (piss be upon him) was a child rapist pedophile.

...

Quote
Quoteand the sooner it is eradicated from the world the better.
No. Like Quran, which is Miracly protected from all degeneration, Islam itself, with its original message will never go off on earth. It is God's will, and it can not be resist. Evidence for it; after 1500 years, it still enlightens Good people with good intentions.
Which version of the Quran are you talking about? All holy books are just myths. The Quran is no different. To declare that it is is just special pleading. I could line up 1,000 believers in all kinds of myths and they will all swear their holy book is true and all others are not. They are all myths and only useful for lighting fires and whiping your arse with.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:43:10 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 11:34:19 AM

That is whst you are taught. Please give me an example if your "obvious" god that cannot, in any way, be attributed to chance, human will or intervention, or any other of the myriad things that really cintrol our existence and can be held, measured, deduced from ohyducsl evidence and do forth.


First of all Proving existence of Allah (God) is not a religious think. It is the area of the science "Logic".

First truth: Every complex thing has an Architect.
Second truth: Universe is the most complex thing.
Ergo: Universe has the most intelligent Architect.

That is it.

however you believe him or not, that is your choice...
More bullshit.

The Argument from Design has been dealt with many times. Most recently by Richard Dawkins in The Blind Watchmaker. Complexity is not, and never has been evience of cause. 

What did you mythological 'Allah' create 13.85 billion years ago?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 12:00:16 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:42:36 AM

Bullshit. The quran is the product of a conman, Mohemed (piss be upon him). He was the Donald Trump of his age. Trump's message is 'Make America great again'. Mohameds (piss be upon him) polititical agenda revolved around 'Make the Aabs great again!' on all the gullible illiterates around rallied to his cry, just like the dumber Americans have done with Trump.

Islam is a pernitious mind virus that when mixed with a particular type of paranoid psychopathic human leads to the ISIS mentality we see all around the world today. The sooner Islam is whiped from the Earth the better.

First of all, I spent 25 years to understand Muhammed (Peace Upon Him), his life, his struggle and I can say I know every little detail (which can be transferred to our time by books) and never saw a man like you described.
I have to ask in which sources do you read about him? Another word, whom do you let to shape your mind?
If you want to be fair about a man you should read his life from his lovers and haters. You can't be fair by adding weights to one side of the balance.

I will just give an answer from Quran for your trump allegation.

it is said like this in Quran "Allah parted you to nationalities for you to recognize each other, (there is no superiority to any nation), The best human is the one who respect to Allah the most.

The criteria to evaluate a human is being respectful to Allah, not his nationality in anyway.
Therefore your Trump allegation is completely denied.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 12:03:42 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:57:55 AM

What did you mythological 'Allah' create 13.85 billion years ago?

Allah created the Universe,
13.85 billion years ago as far as we scientifically discovered.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 12:03:42 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:57:55 AM

What did you mythological 'Allah' create 13.85 billion years ago?

Allah created the Universe,
13.85 billion years ago as far as we scientifically discovered.
I asked what did he create not when.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:19:33 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 12:00:16 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:42:36 AM

Bullshit. The quran is the product of a conman, Mohemed (piss be upon him). He was the Donald Trump of his age. Trump's message is 'Make America great again'. Mohameds (piss be upon him) polititical agenda revolved around 'Make the Aabs great again!' on all the gullible illiterates around rallied to his cry, just like the dumber Americans have done with Trump.

Islam is a pernitious mind virus that when mixed with a particular type of paranoid psychopathic human leads to the ISIS mentality we see all around the world today. The sooner Islam is whiped from the Earth the better.

First of all, I spent 25 years to understand Muhammed (Peace Upon Him), his life, his struggle and I can say I know every little detail (which can be transferred to our time by books) and never saw a man like you described.
Of couse you didn't, you accepted you brainwashing happily.

QuoteI have to ask in which sources do you read about him?
Unbiased ones that were not written by agenda driven theists that had also been brainwashed.

QuoteAnother word, whom do you let to shape your mind?
I shape my mind, don't like the shape of my mind? Tough luck.

QuoteIf you want to be fair about a man you should read his life from his lovers and haters. You can't be fair by adding weights to one side of the balance.
I didn't read from lovers or haters as both would be biased. I read up on neutral historians.

QuoteI will just give an answer from Quran for your trump allegation.

it is said like this in Quran "Allah parted you to nationalities for you to recognize each other, (there is no superiority to any nation), The best human is the one who respect to Allah the most.
As Allah is a myth created by the conman Mohamed (piss be upon him) you are quoting a liar to support a lia.

QuoteThe criteria to evaluate a human is being respectful to Allah, not his nationality in anyway.
Therefore your Trump allegation is completely denied.
Your mythology (Islam) may be your criteria, but it is not mine. So you can shove your meaningless mythologica criteria where the sun don't shine.

Islam is nothing but a lie that has suckered you and your ancestors for hundreds of years.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:27:15 PM
St Paul, Mohamed, Gengis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Trump, to name but a few, all came from the same evolutionary mould of psychopathic megalomaniac. There manpulated the gullible and weak minded to gain power.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: No one on March 24, 2018, 12:49:46 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Islam:
first of all I don't like to be called issy, because it sounds like ishid which is a terrorist association I hate.

No offense intended.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Islam:
the second thing I didn't get what you meant with "why does it give two shits about such insignificant pests?

The universe is immense. For all intents and purposes, it is eternal, by humans standards. Humanity is an inconsequential boil on the ass of existence. Why would the creator of all that is give a flying fuck about something so unconditionally worthless?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:52:49 PM
Fatih what makes you different from your fellow Muslim Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi) the leader of ISIS?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:28:56 AM
"I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable."

Mohamed (piss be upon him) accepted the old testament into Islamic lore. Thus, by your estimate. making Islam also Unbelievable.
No reply?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:57:46 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:23:26 AM
"However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion."

Why not? Do you not accept freedom?  Do you condone the killing of apostates?
You missed this one. You support an ideaology that want's me dead.
Still no answer. Presumably this is because you are obliged by you mythology to kill me and that would totally fuck your groundless assertion that Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is in fact a religion of peace, if you don't believe it then you will be killed (or pay tax to avoid being killed) the Mafia learned that trick, it's called a protection racket.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 01:00:34 PM
Here is an interesting thological position on the Quran.

The 20 Versions of the Qur'an today. (7 are recorded in the Hadith.) (http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-quran-changed-20-versions.htm)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 01:03:27 PM
Fatih, are you Sunni or Shia? And why are you that particular version?

Religion in Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
Well, from where I am, you still have the same problem as any religion. Does or does not, a superhuman run the universe, and can one prove such a person exists. From what I can plainly see religious floks still follow "people" who make claims they benefit from. It's obvious that any faith in such a person is merely faith in the ones who are leaders of religions. Religion is a business no different then any other business. It exists on the same rudiments as any business corporation. Take the money away and religion will go away. If the leaders didn't get paid or make a living from religion it would go away.
"Money and personal powers" run the world of people, and the laws of physics rules the material universe. I find no reason to follow anyone as I have a mind of my own, and it is I that must determine true from false. There's not a clergyman on the planet that can actually believe that. Religions are made up of people that, for their own psychological reasons, want to run other peoples lives. I find no reason to follow someone who at some time in the past developed a self induced hallucination and passed it off as a message from God, merely because he/she didn't understand his/her own mind. I have imaginations too, but that don't mean I have revelations from a super human somebody. If one does their own thinking and has an understanding of peaceful relations with other one dosen't need to believe in external spirits. Religions mostly exist on misplaced understandings of "what is" and "what isn't". One need not believe another just because "he/she" had some emotional experience that they wish to foist off on others as a message from an invisible being thy can't prove exits. No offense intended.

BTW. I can plainly see the last and only religion will ultimately be---no religion and no central government. :)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 04:08:21 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:43:10 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 11:34:19 AM

That is whst you are taught. Please give me an example if your "obvious" god that cannot, in any way, be attributed to chance, human will or intervention, or any other of the myriad things that really cintrol our existence and can be held, measured, deduced from ohyducsl evidence and do forth.


First of all Proving existence of Allah (God) is not a religious think. It is the area of the science "Logic".

First truth: Every complex thing has an Architect.
Second truth: Universe is the most complex thing.
Ergo: Universe has the most intelligent Architect.

That is it.

however you believe him or not, that is your choice...
Ok, but now, just a minute here.
Science----there's only 2 areas of science to deliberate here. The universe contains only 2 things, and those two are divided into their components. There is only material/physical science, and the science of the mind understood to mean psychology. Psychology is the study of "person" and it's components. What your say is --there is a psychological fact that exist in the universe free of any physical attributes. OK, but How so. The only psychological facts that can be discerned are what's connected to, or a product of a material brain.
That means--to understand God then would have to mean understanding psychological facts. That in turn means that God (Allah, if you prefer) is psychological. If I am also psychological and I know me and my mental components then what do I need with a God--or an Allah.  That would be the same as --if I know me and my personal components (which would have to be the same as anyone else's) then I know God. That eliminates any need for any god. Someone screwed up here.  Would this not be proof that religions do not have any authority from god as no clergyman could possibly any different then God and neither would anyone else. It has to be a scam perpetrated by someone in the past who conjured this all up out of self interest--mainly because he was to damn lazy to grow his own wheat and figured out (some psycho-ploy) to get others to do it for him.

There isn't a clergyman in existence and never was that is/was made up psychologically different then anyone else then you or I. So, any claim of a god, and that god then cannot be any different then you or I, all I need to know is me. And, I'm have no psychological traits different then any clergyman. That means (without a doubt) I don't need them, and for one of them to claim they have divine revelation and I don't has got to be a farce and a lie---be cause I can claim the same and say--I have divine revelation too--if I want others to serve "My" best interest, and live free of labor on the planet just as they. Why not just be a wall streeter and live off other people's labor and money. Simple aint it. What sayeth ye. 
How can a clergyman claim to represent God, if god is psychologically no different then anyone, as God psychologically would "have" to be the same as everyone. It's impossible for there to be two different psychologies. Your love or hate can't be any different then gods, would that not be correct. So then, they represent a psychology that's the same as yours. What need do you have for them if you know you. Then divine revelation has to be pure hogwash which makes the world a fools parade and liars paradise. Tell your clergyman to go get a job and mind his own life.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 05:05:53 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Nope, the sad thing is devil is very successful in his job. Illusions. Show good to bad show bad to good.
Can you imagine a religion whose name is "Peace (Islam)" kill people? How could it be? Don't you think manipulations?
Isn't the literal translation of "islam" actually "submission"?



Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:43:10 AM
First of all Proving existence of Allah (God) is not a religious think. It is the area of the science "Logic".

First truth: Every complex thing has an Architect.
Second truth: Universe is the most complex thing.
Ergo: Universe has the most intelligent Architect.

That is it.

however you believe him or not, that is your choice...
The Kalaam Cosmological Argument.
Debunked many times, but ignorant religious muppets still bring it up like it's bulletproof.

For the record; it has all the bulletproof qualities of a slightly melted cheese.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 05:33:46 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:43:10 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 11:34:19 AM

That is whst you are taught. Please give me an example if your "obvious" god that cannot, in any way, be attributed to chance, human will or intervention, or any other of the myriad things that really cintrol our existence and can be held, measured, deduced from ohyducsl evidence and do forth.


First of all Proving existence of Allah (God) is not a religious think. It is the area of the science "Logic".

First truth: Every complex thing has an Architect.
Second truth: Universe is the most complex thing.
Ergo: Universe has the most intelligent Architect.

That is it.

however you believe him or not, that is your choice...

Let's look at "truth":

Quotetruth
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

noun: the truth
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

plural noun: truths
"the emergence of scientific truths"

So, right away we have a word that means just what can be used to mean whatever you want. Your truth is meaningless to me, my truth us meaningless to you. Can there actually be any such thing as truth?

But, at least I can find incontravertible evidence that the scientific truths apply in the same way in the same conditions every tine. Your god seems to toss a coin as to which saint or sinner it saves from whichever natural disaster it allows to happen or who gets blown up by the suicide bombers it inspires etc, etc, etc.

Your god has no power other than that invoked in the psychology of its followers - from the sacrifice of the charity worker to the psychopathic torturer and murderer.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 12:49:46 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Islam:
the second thing I didn't get what you meant with "why does it give two shits about such insignificant pests?

The universe is immense. For all intents and purposes, it is eternal, by humans standards. Humanity is an inconsequential boil on the ass of existence. Why would the creator of all that is give a flying fuck about something so unconditionally worthless?

Problem starts here. Atheism (Eventhough deny existance of him) has an assumption that God doesn't care human
But the fact is completely opposite of this. Allah (God) cares about each individual human being. Look at his words.

"Eyy (address word in Arabic) Human! What makes you turn your face away from your God, while he is generous to you?

"Does human thinks we let him alone (carelessly)?

Another thing, about Immense Universe,
God is an Artist in someway and He wanted  to show us his Gorgeous Intelligence and Art work therefore he crated us with ability to appreciate art.

To be honest I don't want to talk like your priests and I don't have intention to convince you that "everything is great on earth".

As question of examination the life on earth has some difficulties like ilnesses, wildness, death, breakups and sorrow. But these are just as long as a blink (considering human life (80) and earth life (4.500.000.000) and if you win the exam, you will never see those bad things in your eternal life.

That is the great part of life "Hope to escape from it"

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 05:45:25 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:28:56 AM
"I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable."

Mohamed (piss be upon him) accepted the old testament into Islamic lore. Thus, by your estimate. making Islam also Unbelievable.
No reply?

We accept that original version of all holy books came from Allah (including bible, Torah etc., but all of them broken up by human hand except the last holy book Quran, it is miraculously protected by Allah himself.
It is original. Therefore there is no contraventions in it. ( I am saying because I spend 25 years on it, I am speaking what I know and will share that knowledge as much as I can)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:52:49 PM
Fatih what makes you different from your fellow Muslim Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi) the leader of ISIS?
Because it is like a joke I really laughed this comparison. However I ll try to explain
When a person search, learn, think, compare and inspect carefully what he believes, he is a believer. When a person accepts dogmas, bias and assumptions as Religion he is brain washed.
That is the difference.
Believers think... because in Quran there are over 700 ayah ordering people to think to find the truths.
Brainwashed ones do every evil eyes closed thinking that They think they do serve God, however they just serve evil, but they have no awareness what about they are doing. This subject is really long but lets say enough for this message

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:57:46 PM

Still no answer. Presumably this is because you are obliged by you mythology to kill me and that would totally fuck your groundless assertion that Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is in fact a religion of peace, if you don't believe it then you will be killed (or pay tax to avoid being killed) the Mafia learned that trick, it's called a protection racket.

What made you believe that Muslims kill other people who has different believes?
Not just our Prophet Muhammad, in human history none of the real Muslim kings or commanders killed people because they are not believers. All the wars we had were against Cruelty and to protect human rights...
You just see some terrorists (called muslims but actually jut actors) and judge İslam by them.

As I said, Islam is much more different than your assumptions and biases.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:05:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 01:03:27 PM
Fatih, are you Sunni or Shia? And why are you that particular version?

Religion in Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Turkey)

I am Sunni.
I take refuge in Allah to be shia
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 05:05:53 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Nope, the sad thing is devil is very successful in his job. Illusions. Show good to bad show bad to good.
Can you imagine a religion whose name is "Peace (Islam)" kill people? How could it be? Don't you think manipulations?
Isn't the literal translation of "islam" actually "submission"?


Nope it comes from the word selam (we great each other using this word actually) which means "be safe from all dangers" and that means peace.
But it also related to meaning "refuge to a big power to be safe from all dangers" therefore it also means "submission to Allah to be safe from all dangers"
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:14:15 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
...

Problem starts here. Atheism (Eventhough deny existance of him) ..
Fatih, you come to an atheist forum and tell us what atheism is when you have not a clue what atheism is, don't worry your ignorance is very common among theist. Atheist (with a few exceptions) do not deny gods exist. We have simply rationally deduced that the lack of evidence to support the existence of gods (combined with the fact there never can be evidence for for gods) means that it is irrational to behave as though gods exist.

Now there are essentially two types of atheists. About 75% of us think that the lack of evidence means that there probably isn't a god and we live our lives free of superstition. About 25% of us think that this total lack of evidence is in itself conclusive evidence that gods don't exist. Personally I fall into the 75% that would change our minds if suitable evidence for the existance were to be presented. Don't forget holy books are not evidence.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:14:21 PM
Fatih, you wear blinkers and rose tinted soectacles to look down a narrow tunnel through a telescope the wrong way round.

You have been so thoroughly brain washed.

But, I try not to judge a person by what they believe, for what "sins" their parents and authorities have committed against them, only by what they do for mankind. You are an evangelist for your faith, that gives you a minus mark in my reckoning but you seem good at heart.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 12:49:46 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Islam:
the second thing I didn't get what you meant with "why does it give two shits about such insignificant pests?

The universe is immense. For all intents and purposes, it is eternal, by humans standards. Humanity is an inconsequential boil on the ass of existence. Why would the creator of all that is give a flying fuck about something so unconditionally worthless?

Problem starts here. Atheism (Eventhough deny existance of him) has an assumption that God doesn't care human
But the fact is completely opposite of this. Allah (God) cares about each individual human being. Look at his words.

"Eyy (address word in Arabic) Human! What makes you turn your face away from your God, while he is generous to you?

"Does human thinks we let him alone (carelessly)?

Another thing, about Immense Universe,
God is an Artist in someway and He wanted  to show us his Gorgeous Intelligence and Art work therefore he crated us with ability to appreciate art.

To be honest I don't want to talk like your priests and I don't have intention to convince you that "everything is great on earth".

As question of examination the life on earth has some difficulties like ilnesses, wildness, death, breakups and sorrow. But these are just as long as a blink (considering human life (80) and earth life (4.500.000.000) and if you win the exam, you will never see those bad things in your eternal life.

That is the great part of life "Hope to escape from it"
There is no evidence to support the conjecture that Allah exists. Therefore any assertions about the existence of Allah or what you deem he has done or said are meaningless.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:20:55 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 05:45:25 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:28:56 AM
"I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable."

Mohamed (piss be upon him) accepted the old testament into Islamic lore. Thus, by your estimate. making Islam also Unbelievable.
No reply?

We accept that original version of all holy books came from Allah (including bible, Torah etc., but all of them broken up by human hand except the last holy book Quran, it is miraculously protected by Allah himself.
It is original. Therefore there is no contraventions in it. ( I am saying because I spend 25 years on it, I am speaking what I know and will share that knowledge as much as I can)
But a myth Allah can not protect anything. And just because you spent 25 years reading a fairy tale does not mean that the fairy tail is true. If a person spent 25 years studying the Harry Potter books that would not make then true any more than studying the lies of Mohamed (piss be upon him) would make them true either.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:24:35 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:52:49 PM
Fatih what makes you different from your fellow Muslim Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi) the leader of ISIS?
Because it is like a joke I really laughed this comparison. However I ll try to explain
When a person search, learn, think, compare and inspect carefully what he believes, he is a believer. When a person accepts dogmas, bias and assumptions as Religion he is brain washed.
That is the difference.
Believers think... because in Quran there are over 700 ayah ordering people to think to find the truths.
Brainwashed ones do every evil eyes closed thinking that They think they do serve God, however they just serve evil, but they have no awareness what about they are doing. This subject is really long but lets say enough for this message
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi would say exactly the same about you. To him you are not a true believer. He would say you serve evil as you do not follow the truth that in his eyes is the Quran. There is no discernable difference between you and him. Get over it.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 01:00:34 PM
Here is an interesting thological position on the Quran.

The 20 Versions of the Qur'an today. (7 are recorded in the Hadith.) (http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-quran-changed-20-versions.htm)

It is really funny seeing this. And I need to give you some information about it.

Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

And everyone knows crssnt is croissant.

They say some people read crssnt as croissent or something but it doesn't change anything in meaning.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 12:57:46 PM

Still no answer. Presumably this is because you are obliged by you mythology to kill me and that would totally fuck your groundless assertion that Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is in fact a religion of peace, if you don't believe it then you will be killed (or pay tax to avoid being killed) the Mafia learned that trick, it's called a protection racket.

What made you believe that Muslims kill other people who has different believes?
Not just our Prophet Muhammad, in human history none of the real Muslim kings or commanders killed people because they are not believers. All the wars we had were against Cruelty and to protect human rights...
You just see some terrorists (called muslims but actually jut actors) and judge İslam by them.

As I said, Islam is much more different than your assumptions and biases.

https://www.centerforinquiry.net/secularislam/articles_and_books/a_call_to_the_muslims_of_the_world/

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Just two references.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:36:53 PM
And also how can I possibly trust anything you wrote as lying to infidels is condoned in your mythology.

Deception, Lying and Taqiyya (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:38:08 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 01:00:34 PM
Here is an interesting thological position on the Quran.

The 20 Versions of the Qur'an today. (7 are recorded in the Hadith.) (http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-quran-changed-20-versions.htm)

It is really funny seeing this. And I need to give you some information about it.

Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

And everyone knows crssnt is croissant.

They say some people read crssnt as croissent or something but it doesn't change anything in meaning.
And this means what? Try saying that again in a different way as it made no sense.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:38:32 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
Well, from where I am, you still have the same problem as any religion. Does or does not, a superhuman run the universe, and can one prove such a person exists. From what I can plainly see religious floks still follow "people" who make claims they benefit from. It's obvious that any faith in such a person is merely faith in the ones who are leaders of religions. Religion is a business no different then any other business. It exists on the same rudiments as any business corporation. Take the money away and religion will go away. If the leaders didn't get paid or make a living from religion it would go away.
"Money and personal powers" run the world of people, and the laws of physics rules the material universe. I find no reason to follow anyone as I have a mind of my own, and it is I that must determine true from false. There's not a clergyman on the planet that can actually believe that. Religions are made up of people that, for their own psychological reasons, want to run other peoples lives. I find no reason to follow someone who at some time in the past developed a self induced hallucination and passed it off as a message from God, merely because he/she didn't understand his/her own mind. I have imaginations too, but that don't mean I have revelations from a super human somebody. If one does their own thinking and has an understanding of peaceful relations with other one dosen't need to believe in external spirits. Religions mostly exist on misplaced understandings of "what is" and "what isn't". One need not believe another just because "he/she" had some emotional experience that they wish to foist off on others as a message from an invisible being thy can't prove exits. No offense intended.

BTW. I can plainly see the last and only religion will ultimately be---no religion and no central government. :)

As far as I understood from your saying you say that religion is a think which people use to get benefit (money etc.)

Nope that is not true. Every Prophet of Allah (God) came with same message "We don't want anything from you, our payment is on God" that is the difference between honesty and fraud.
If someone use Religion to get something from you, it is fraud just get rid of him!

This is an important subject which is implied in Quran "Shame on people who write lies into the book (Bible, Torah), then say it is from God to get benefit from people, shame to what they write shame to what they earned"
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:41:54 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 05:05:53 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Nope, the sad thing is devil is very successful in his job. Illusions. Show good to bad show bad to good.
Can you imagine a religion whose name is "Peace (Islam)" kill people? How could it be? Don't you think manipulations?
Isn't the literal translation of "islam" actually "submission"?


Nope it comes from the word selam (we great each other using this word actually) which means "be safe from all dangers" and that means peace.
But it also related to meaning "refuge to a big power to be safe from all dangers" therefore it also means "submission to Allah to be safe from all dangers"

Apparently you are not even aware of the meaning of the word Islam (https://islamqa.info/en/10446). Oh and I don't care what it means. If you disagree with the people who wrote what I linked to go and argue with them.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:42:51 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:20:55 PM

But a myth Allah can not protect anything. And just because you spent 25 years reading a fairy tale does not mean that the fairy tail is true. If a person spent 25 years studying the Harry Potter books that would not make then true any more than studying the lies of Mohamed (piss be upon him) would make them true either.

But the problem is which part of Quran makes you think that it is a Myth?

Forexample The ayah below

"Allah orders you to be fair, doing favors to others, doing favor to your relatives, and forbid you to be shameless and cruel and mean and hateful "
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.
Religious memes have been refining themselves for millennia. They are in fact mass delusions.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:46:47 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:24:35 PM
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi would say exactly the same about you. To him you are not a true believer. He would say you serve evil as you do not follow the truth that in his eyes is the Quran. There is no discernable difference between you and him. Get over it.

It is a fact that
I never killed an innocent person and I will never intent to.
Instead I helped hundreds of people to live under conditions that a human deserves. I am helping people to live not to die.
That is an enough evidence that we are different.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:42:51 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:20:55 PM

But a myth Allah can not protect anything. And just because you spent 25 years reading a fairy tale does not mean that the fairy tail is true. If a person spent 25 years studying the Harry Potter books that would not make then true any more than studying the lies of Mohamed (piss be upon him) would make them true either.

But the problem is which part of Quran makes you think that it is a Myth?

Forexample The ayah below

"Allah orders you to be fair, doing favors to others, doing favor to your relatives, and forbid you to be shameless and cruel and mean and hateful "
All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:51:48 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

The problem is what relegion we are talking about?
Yes are there are some believes on earth even make people worse than you explained. But they are the wrong ones and we have to realize the difference.

Otherwise if you cut your arm just because you think it is gangrene, it will let you armless.

Need to differentiate what is healthy and what is gangrene then fight against it.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:56:59 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:42:51 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:20:55 PM

But a myth Allah can not protect anything. And just because you spent 25 years reading a fairy tale does not mean that the fairy tail is true. If a person spent 25 years studying the Harry Potter books that would not make then true any more than studying the lies of Mohamed (piss be upon him) would make them true either.

But the problem is which part of Quran makes you think that it is a Myth?

Forexample The ayah below

"Allah orders you to be fair, doing favors to others, doing favor to your relatives, and forbid you to be shameless and cruel and mean and hateful "

Like the bible the koran is a composite of the way humans were expected to think and behave at the time of their writing. A codification of expected behaviour, ritualised to make it stick. They both contain wisdom, that cannot be denied, but it is wrapped up in out of date thinking and threats.

And, ignoring the psychopaths that infest Muslim cultures (and others where religion is given power), there seems to be a medieval frame of mind that fits well with a set of medieval rules. As I said before, in this current world the most violent countries are the most religious, just about all Muslim nations, any that have an active Islamist faction (such as Boko Haram), some Buddhist countries, parts of India, several middle and South Amarican countries, even the USA to some extent.

The West has blood on its hands in the near and middle East, I have to agree, but the locals are wading through lakes of it.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:57:39 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:46:47 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:24:35 PM
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi would say exactly the same about you. To him you are not a true believer. He would say you serve evil as you do not follow the truth that in his eyes is the Quran. There is no discernable difference between you and him. Get over it.

It is a fact that
I never killed an innocent person and I will never intent to.
Instead I helped hundreds of people to live under conditions that a human deserves. I am helping people to live not to die.
That is an enough evidence that we are different.
Ah. So your behaviours make you different. Fair enough. But you read the same Quran as Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. You have both studied it for decades. Yet you behave differently from him. Which means the Quran is ambiguous. Surly a book written by the alleged creator of the Universe would not be ambiguous? No the difference between him and you is that you are a better man than him. No gods required.

In fact if gods existed there would be no need for books, nor religions. We would just be born knowing the truth of our existence.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:57:39 PM
You have both studied it for decades. Yet you behave differently from him. Which means the Quran is ambiguous.

Nope that means They don't read Quran :)
They just accept assumptions of other people (Who command them and intentionally make them far away from Quran to prevent them see the true religion)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
No you don't you deny all other faiths but your own you are a liar. Taqiyya at work.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:07:07 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:57:39 PM
You have both studied it for decades. Yet you behave differently from him. Which means the Quran is ambiguous.

Nope that means They don't read Quran :)
They just accept assumptions of other people (Who command them and intentionally make them far away from Quran to prevent them see the true religion)
Oh finally we get to The no true Scotsman fallacy (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman). It was only a matter of time. Deny what does not suit your delusions.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:11:59 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:56:59 PM

Like the bible the koran is a composite of the way humans were expected to think and behave at the time of their writing. A codification of expected behaviour, ritualised to make it stick. They both contain wisdom, that cannot be denied, but it is wrapped up in out of date thinking and threats.

And, ignoring the psychopaths that infest Muslim cultures (and others where religion is given power), there seems to be a medieval frame of mind that fits well with a set of medieval rules. As I said before, in this current world the most violent countries are the most religious, just about all Muslim nations, any that have an active Islamist faction (such as Boko Haram), some Buddhist countries, parts of India, several middle and South Amarican countries, even the USA to some extent.

The West has blood on its hands in the near and middle East, I have to agree, but the locals are wading through lakes of it.

Do you know what makes me really sorry?

All the Muslims that I can show you as Humanity monument are under earth. They are just history now.

As I said, evil succeed his job. Made Muslims far away from their book, illiterate, unconscious.

What can I say?

This is the most difficult time of the earth, considering (life is an exam). It is really hard to find the truth nowadays.

Because Muslims don't look like Muslims (Illiterate, poor, mean, primitive) and the others have wealth.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
No you don't you deny all other faiths but your own you are a liar. Taqiyya at work.

No.
Try to understand that I am saying all holy believes come from the same source, God.

Taqiyya is a word for Shias not for sunnies. We don't lie in anyway.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:14:37 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.
He did reply he is Sunni.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:15:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:14:37 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.
He did reply he is Sunni.

Thanks, missed that.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
No you don't you deny all other faiths but your own you are a liar. Taqiyya at work.

No.
Try to understand that I am saying all holy believes come from the same source, God.

Taqiyya is a word for Shias not for sunnies. We don't lie in anyway.
How can beliefs come from a supernatural entity for which there is no evidence?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:17:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.

Nope Ottomans ruled the world with justice. Except personal mistakes, which only bind its owner.

As  I said I am Sunni
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:26:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
No you don't you deny all other faiths but your own you are a liar. Taqiyya at work.

No.
Try to understand that I am saying all holy believes come from the same source, God.

Taqiyya is a word for Shias not for sunnies. We don't lie in anyway.
How can beliefs come from a supernatural entity for which there is no evidence?

Tank, you teach me the answer of the problem below and I will give you the answer of your question above.

Hold a born blind person's hand, take him to the desert under bright sun and try to prove the existence of Sun.

How can you do that?

Can you convince him by saying "Do you feel warm? That is because of sun" Can you prove the existence of light to the person who is in dark, by just showing its consequences.

God's signature is everywhere, from icosahedral viruses to the 200 billion star galaxies if you don't want to see it What Can I do?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:26:06 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 06:50:50 PM

All religions are myths. All holy books claim to be the true word of god. You deny all but your own. All the other people deny all holy books but their own (what a surprise) I just sit on the sidelines and laugh at the stupidity of believers. The fact that a conman like Mohamed (piss be upon him) wrote it is the other huge giveaway.

Nope, I accept all original version of Holy books. Just know that all of them beside the last one (Quran) are changed by human hand to earn benefit from innocent people. I am just against this.
No you don't you deny all other faiths but your own you are a liar. Taqiyya at work.

No.
Try to understand that I am saying all holy believes come from the same source, God.

Taqiyya is a word for Shias not for sunnies. We don't lie in anyway.
How can beliefs come from a supernatural entity for which there is no evidence?

Tank, you teach me the answer of the problem below and I will give you the answer of your question above.

Hold a born blind person's hand, take him to the desert under bright sun and try to prove the existence of Sun.

How can you do that?

Can you convince him by saying "Do you feel warm? That is because of sun" Can you prove the existence of light to the person who is in dark, by just showing its consequences.

God's signature is everywhere, from icosahedral viruses to the 200 billion star galaxies if you don't want to see it What Can I do?
Gods signature is whatever you want it to be. That makes the god claim 'unfalsifiable' which mean it is an irrational claim. That logic is based on the ignorance of our ancestors who had to believe there was a reason or a cause for everything. They simply could not accept that they didn't know why the sun came up.

Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:41:45 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
...
Taqiyya is a word for Shias not for sunnies. We don't lie in anyway.
Well you would say that wouldn't you.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:47:23 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.
No we agree that holy books are myths created by delusional and/or dishonest people.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: No one on March 24, 2018, 08:17:41 PM
Hey Islam, you are aware that life exists outside of humans, and the tiny little dot they and every other form of life call home, aren't you? Humans are not special. Not in any way, shape, or form. They are just one of the countless forms of life that dwell in the space we call the universe.

God is made in mankinds Image. Humans are angry, fearfull little empty sacks of meat. The universe is not made for us to appreciate.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 08:18:18 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:17:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.

Nope Ottomans ruled the world with justice. Except personal mistakes, which only bind its owner.

As  I said I am Sunni

Might want to read up on the Janissaries. At it's height the ottoman Empire made large scale use of captured slave boys as soldiers.
QuoteThe first Janissary units were formed from prisoners of war and slaves, probably as a result of the sultan taking his traditional one-fifth share of his army's plunder in kind rather than cash; however the continuing enslaving of dhimmi constituted a continuing abuse of a subject population. Initially the recruiters favoured Greeks and Albanians. As borders of the Ottoman Empire expanded, the devşirme was extended to include Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Serbs, Armenians, Hungarians and later, in rare instances, Romanians, Georgians, Ukrainians and southern Russians.
-Wikipedia-
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM


Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.

Ok. Do you want evidence?

Why do people (human) speak? As all living things basicly to fullfil his basic instincs. To get rid of hunger, thirst, sexuality. Or he sings, write poems to beauty or power. To state thoughts.

However, have you ever heard someone who starts to speak  like
"I swear to Universe and him Who built it,
to the earth and him Who rounded it,
to the soul and him who shaped it
that
The one, cleans it (soul) will succed
the one who covers it (with sins) will fail.

(Of course in its original language it is really beautiful and accented, but it is impossible to translate it to another language protecting its artistic influence)

Are these look like human words? Human soul sourced words?

Think about the sentences you set up from whole your life, have you ever thought to speak like that?

So, what is the source of these words?

This is the meaning of Prophet, they transfer God's words to us, it can not belong to a human.

They don't like the sentences that humans made
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 08:18:18 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:17:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.

Nope Ottomans ruled the world with justice. Except personal mistakes, which only bind its owner.

As  I said I am Sunni

Might want to read up on the Janissaries. At it's height the ottoman Empire made large scale use of captured slave boys as soldiers.
QuoteThe first Janissary units were formed from prisoners of war and slaves, probably as a result of the sultan taking his traditional one-fifth share of his army's plunder in kind rather than cash; however the continuing enslaving of dhimmi constituted a continuing abuse of a subject population. Initially the recruiters favoured Greeks and Albanians. As borders of the Ottoman Empire expanded, the devşirme was extended to include Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Serbs, Armenians, Hungarians and later, in rare instances, Romanians, Georgians, Ukrainians and southern Russians.
-Wikipedia-

funny, because one of the most famous vizier (king's right hand) of Ottomans was devsirme -Janissaries.
They were not just soldiers, they were free men who were willingly join our army to take Islam to the countries who doesn't know Islam.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 08:36:43 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM


Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.

Ok. Do you want evidence?

Why do people (human) speak? As all living things basicly to fullfil his basic instincs. To get rid of hunger, thirst, sexuality. Or he sings, write poems to beauty or power. To state thoughts.

However, have you ever heard someone who starts to speak  like
"I swear to Universe and him Who built it,
to the earth and him Who rounded it,
to the soul and him who shaped it
that
The one, cleans it (soul) will succed
the one who covers it (with sins) will fail.

(Of course in its original language it is really beautiful and accented, but it is impossible to translate it to another language protecting its artistic influence)

Are these look like human words? Human soul sourced words?

Think about the sentences you set up from whole your life, have you ever thought to speak like that?

So, what is the source of these words?

This is the meaning of Prophet, they transfer God's words to us, it can not belong to a human.

They don't like the sentences that humans made
You evidently don't have a clue what constitutes evidence. All you are doing is preaching the ignorance of our ancestors.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 08:45:25 PM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 08:17:41 PM


God is made in mankinds Image.

Do you want to learn the secret of life?

As Quran clearly explained that, Allah gathered all souls of the humans (who will be sent to the earth later) and asked them "am I not your God?" and all souls answered that "Yes you are" this is the first agreement of the human.
Which makes us responsible for all of our decisions.
Therefore all of us has knowledge of God subconsciously,
big fears and sorrows cleans all the dusts and clouds on that agreement and we remember God immediately. As they say "There are no atheists in falling plane"

This is why we know God, that is not an image. That is a shade of a knowledge.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 24, 2018, 08:47:55 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:45:25 PM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 08:17:41 PM


God is made in mankinds Image.

Do you want to learn the secret of life?

As Quran clearly explained that, Allah gathered all souls of the humans (who will be sent to the earth later) and asked them "am I not your God?" and all souls answered that "Yes you are" this is the first agreement of the human.
Which makes us responsible for all of our decisions.
Therefore all of us has knowledge of God subconsciously,
big fears and sorrows cleans all the dusts and clouds on that agreement and we remember God immediately. As they say "There are no atheists in falling plane"

This is why we know God, that is not an image. That is a shade of a knowledge.
More preaching. No evidence.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.
People wrote the book. Other then that it would have to be as the Mormons. Mr. Smith had gold tablets that somehow disappeared, that would have had to weighed as much (by some estimates) 600 pounds, and he carried them hither and thither for a while. He claimed the Israelities came to this continent, but there is absolutely no evidence of them ever being here as he qualified and quantified it to be. For that to be true  there would have to be archeological evidence of which none has been found. And, look at the amount of floks that follow that religion's impossibilities. It does nothing but put clergy on their wrung of the social ladder.
No, the books came from people who "claim" to have gotten them, or enlightenment from God. In the case of the bible , it was written by Hebrew prophets. While we hold the the bible as a valid document, our understanding of it is very different then conventional thinking and interpretation.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: No one on March 24, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
My local religionmart has the best picked cherries. You wouldn't happen to be their supplier, would you Islam?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 11:10:23 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 08:18:18 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:17:46 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 24, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
The power of a religion to blind itself to its own faults and to its effect on its members must be a form of mass mental illness.

You are living in a Christian society. You may be right. You probably right.

I am just saying If you were living in the age of Ottomans (the biggest Islamic emperor in history), after seing their kindness and humanity you would change your mind about religious societies

I am aware that the Ottoman period was a flowering of art and science. But was it also not a time of cruelty? It was an empire if its time that grew fatter and more corrupt the longer it lasted. That was then, the only use for history is to be learned from, your culture is sadly lacking there - it is still fighting ancient feuds.

Did you answer Tank's question as to which faction of Islam you hold to? Missed it if you did. It is of interest but not critical to our opinions I think.

Nope Ottomans ruled the world with justice. Except personal mistakes, which only bind its owner.

As  I said I am Sunni

Might want to read up on the Janissaries. At it's height the ottoman Empire made large scale use of captured slave boys as soldiers.
QuoteThe first Janissary units were formed from prisoners of war and slaves, probably as a result of the sultan taking his traditional one-fifth share of his army's plunder in kind rather than cash; however the continuing enslaving of dhimmi constituted a continuing abuse of a subject population. Initially the recruiters favoured Greeks and Albanians. As borders of the Ottoman Empire expanded, the devşirme was extended to include Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Serbs, Armenians, Hungarians and later, in rare instances, Romanians, Georgians, Ukrainians and southern Russians.
-Wikipedia-

funny, because one of the most famous vizier (king's right hand) of Ottomans was devsirme -Janissaries.
They were not just soldiers, they were free men who were willingly join our army to take Islam to the countries who doesn't know Islam.
The ottomans took boys from their families in the Balkans and Eastern European countries, force marched them to Turkey, and abused them until their spirits were broken and then brainwashed them into being obedient servants. Nothing willing about that.
And you called the ottomans just.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Icarus on March 25, 2018, 03:17:39 AM
Well whoop-de doo, we have a full blown shitstorn for six pages.  What happened to the thread in the Ask HAF section about whether we should dispose of militant intruders?

Despite the consensus about doing away with trouble makers, I salute those of you who are fighting back against a seemingly intelligent individual who has his head in a place where the sun does not shine. That is the same as pissing against the tide. Let's move on to some subject with substance.

Though I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest with Islam, I do recall the Quoran based belief "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah."    Is that not from the Sword of Verses for Inspiration?  Does Shurah 9:5  not say that :Fight and slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush.....?

We on this side of the world, the civilized part, the analytically permissive part, are not fond of that kind of misanthropic ignorance of reality.



Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tom62 on March 25, 2018, 07:47:48 AM
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 08:06:24 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 25, 2018, 07:47:48 AM


based on?

Without explanation and evidence these kind of things are just for the people whose mind are open for brainwash because of illiteracy.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 11:10:23 PM
The ottomans took boys from their families in the Balkans and Eastern European countries, force marched them to Turkey, and abused them until their spirits were broken and then brainwashed them into being obedient servants. Nothing willing about that.
And you called the ottomans just.

I think somepeople has really tallent to turn every good thing to evil.
First of all devsirmes were not slaves. Generally they were war orphans without family and they were protected by sending them to Turkish wealthy families. The biggest evidence that they were not slaves nor treated bad is, as I said before Ottomans has very famous and successful viziers (King's right hands) like
Rum Mehmed Paşa,
Veli Mahmud Paşa,
Yunus Paşa ,
Rüstem Paşa,
Sokollu Mehmed Paşa,
Kuyucu Murat Paşa
and
Pargalı İbrahim Paşa

another important thing; when Ottomans conquer a country (because of the Islamic rules) they had to protect them like they had do protect their families (their own folk).
Can you protect a county without soldiers? Especially considering you are an Emperor ruling nearly 1/3 of the world? Where can you find soldiers enough to do it.
Therefore they got 1/5 of the young boys from the country they conquer under military service. And they treated them as their own folk NOT as SLAVES!!!
If you don't live in an imaginary world in which everything is pink. You will understand this process was necessary to keep big Emperor alive "TO MAINTAIN PEOPLE RULING IN JUSTICE"
Ottomans weren't like Byzantium or Persian try to conquer world for their prestige, they only had aim "carry Islam to other countries to rule them in justice" save their this world and other world.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 08:28:55 AM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
My local religionmart has the best picked cherries. You wouldn't happen to be their supplier, would you Islam?

just joke? or you mean something?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 08:38:13 AM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.


People wrote the book. Other then that it would have to be as the Mormons. Mr. Smith had gold tablets that somehow disappeared, that would have had to weighed as much (by some estimates) 600 pounds, and he carried them hither and thither for a while. He claimed the Israelities came to this continent, but there is absolutely no evidence of them ever being here as he qualified and quantified it to be. For that to be true  there would have to be archeological evidence of which none has been found. And, look at the amount of floks that follow that religion's impossibilities. It does nothing but put clergy on their wrung of the social ladder.
No, the books came from people who "claim" to have gotten them, or enlightenment from God. In the case of the bible , it was written by Hebrew prophets. While we hold the the bible as a valid document, our understanding of it is very different then conventional thinking and interpretation.

We just not claim our holy book Quran came from Allah. We have undeniable evidences for it.

Quran gives some information which can be discovered only few years ago with high technology, like expanding of the universe, black wholes, embryonic states of fetus, the world's rotation on its axis etc.

Our Prophet Muhammad or any other man could know it 1500 year ago.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 08:41:18 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 08:36:43 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM


Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.

Ok. Do you want evidence?

Why do people (human) speak? As all living things basicly to fullfil his basic instincs. To get rid of hunger, thirst, sexuality. Or he sings, write poems to beauty or power. To state thoughts.

However, have you ever heard someone who starts to speak  like
"I swear to Universe and him Who built it,
to the earth and him Who rounded it,
to the soul and him who shaped it
that
The one, cleans it (soul) will succed
the one who covers it (with sins) will fail.

(Of course in its original language it is really beautiful and accented, but it is impossible to translate it to another language protecting its artistic influence)

Are these look like human words? Human soul sourced words?

Think about the sentences you set up from whole your life, have you ever thought to speak like that?

So, what is the source of these words?

This is the meaning of Prophet, they transfer God's words to us, it can not belong to a human.

They don't like the sentences that humans made
You evidently don't have a clue what constitutes evidence. All you are doing is preaching the ignorance of our ancestors.

Nope, you just close your mind to deep thought which can led you see the truths.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2018, 09:01:03 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:06:24 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 25, 2018, 07:47:48 AM


based on?

Without explanation and evidence these kind of things are just for the people whose mind are open for brainwash because of illiteracy.

Leaving aside the weakness of your response; are not all of those things attributes of people that self-describe as Muslim? You may wish to disown those who you consider not to be Muslims because of their behaviour, but (though I dislike the way it was produced) every one of those things listed can be applied to people derived from cultures that follow the Muslim faith.

We are told that Muslims are expected to learn and interpret the koran in their own way and that there are many things open to interpretation in a violent way in that book. We have been quoted, so very often, words from that book that explify violence. Yet Muslim appologists seem to be entirely in denial of this, you cannot face the very violence inherent in your own holy scriptures. They have their heads in the sand. The bible is bad enough but the koran beats it hands down.

This is 2018, some values are enduring, constant and worthy of keeping, others are not. Human nature is schizoid, part loving, part violent and always has been. Holy books tend to share that same split personality - because they are written by humans. You do not wish to look too derp into the mirror of time for fear of sering the violence behind you and around you. Leave ancient attitudes to the ancients.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: Icarus on March 25, 2018, 03:17:39 AM
Well whoop-de doo, we have a full blown shitstorn for six pages.  What happened to the thread in the Ask HAF section about whether we should dispose of militant intruders?

Despite the consensus about doing away with trouble makers, I salute those of you who are fighting back against a seemingly intelligent individual who has his head in a place where the sun does not shine. That is the same as pissing against the tide. Let's move on to some subject with substance.

Though I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest with Islam, I do recall the Quoran based belief "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah."    Is that not from the Sword of Verses for Inspiration?  Does Shurah 9:5  not say that :Fight and slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush.....?

We on this side of the world, the civilized part, the analytically permissive part, are not fond of that kind of misanthropic ignorance of reality.

It is really funny and made my sunday morning.

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?

In a scene, William Wallece (The main character, our hero) kills a commander by cutting his throat.

Without seeing the previous scenes (that commander killed innocent woman (wallace's wife)) what would you think about Wallace

BARBARIAN. MURDERER...

Therefore You should watch the whole movie before deciding what is barbarian what is heroic.

So... not the whole movie I will just show you some scenes before sent of the ayahs you claimed as Murdering!!!

idolaters, who are mentioned in this ayah, tortured and killed Muslims for 23 years, just because they had different believes than they are. They killed, jailed, tortured Muslims Just because they are not idolaters.

They looted their properties and when Muslims tried to get back what belongs to them they prepared strong armies against them to kill all of them and wipe them out of earth.

Finally, before the Ayah above, Muslims and idolaters come to an agreement for peace. Peace continued for 10 years. But idolaters broke the agreement and slaughtered whole village of innocent people.

They broke the peace agreement and they deserved to be punished.

And the Ayah above doesn't say kill them all or exterminate immediately. It gives them 3 months to leave the country and after that, like all murderers desired, they would exterminated.

By the way. another ayah you mentioned "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah."[/i] does not mean that

The word which is translated to English as "Fight" is in no way means Fight or War or usage of Force.

And that word is the frightened word "Cihad"

Which only means "Struggle" "Work hard willingly" in Arabic. Today if some terrorists use Cihad word to kill people (even innocent people, or each other) that is their brainless, idiotness. And the sad thing that you judge Islam by those brainless idiots which are not even close to Islam.

There are tons of words say but no time no place

However, historical events proves that Our Prophet Muhammad (P.U.H) only fight for human rights defend innocent people, lives and properties and to stop cruelty.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 09:13:08 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 25, 2018, 09:01:03 AM

We are told that Muslims are expected to learn and interpret the koran in their own way and that there are many things open to interpretation in a violent way in that book. We have been quoted, so very often, words from that book that explify violence. Yet Muslim appologists seem to be entirely in denial of this, you cannot face the very violence inherent in your own holy scriptures. They have their heads in the sand. The bible is bad enough but the koran beats it hands down.

This is 2018, some values are enduring, constant and worthy of keeping, others are not. Human nature is schizoid, part loving, part violent and always has been. Holy books tend to share that same split personality - because they are written by humans. You do not wish to look too derp into the mirror of time for fear of sering the violence behind you and around you. Leave ancient attitudes to the ancients.

Instead of assumptions and claims. Just bring the ayahs which you claim as violence and I will answer all of them one by one.

About the phrase "Muslim apologists", We are not apologists, we just explain the things in humanitarian way for you to understand.

Note: I recommend you to read the explanation above
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2018, 09:26:31 AM
An "appologist" is: a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.

Islam is "controversial" to all but Islamists and deep believers, you argue its case.

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:06:24 AM
...

Without explanation and evidence these kind of things are just for the people whose mind are open for brainwash because of illiteracy.
I could not have described better why you are a Muslim and Islam continues to plague humanity. You have wasted 25 years studying a myth on the basis it was true. You did this because everybody you ever loved or trusted told you Islam was real and true. The problem was they had all been brainwashed for generations before you walked into a perfect storm of well rehearsed lies, superstitions and falsehoods.

Thank you for coming here and reminding us how deeply disturbing extremist views like the ones you hold are. I'd forgotten just how dangerous Islam is. You personally may not physically kill people, but you do attempt to kill people's minds by spreading the vile deceit that is is Islam.

Please do not think I am singling out Islam. Religions are based on myths and as such cloud humanity's understanding of ourselves. We are not the playthings of gods but evolved apes with just enough brains to be scared of our existence. We can not progress as long as our minds are chained to the institutionalised superstitions of our ancestors. I know some Muslims in real life and I continually remind myself that the atrocities carried out by some Muslims in the name of Islam are done by the minority of Muslims. But equally you have reminded me that Islam itself is a crime against humanity that must be eroded and removed from the human psyche.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:04:04 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:41:18 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 08:36:43 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM


Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.

Ok. Do you want evidence?

Why do people (human) speak? As all living things basicly to fullfil his basic instincs. To get rid of hunger, thirst, sexuality. Or he sings, write poems to beauty or power. To state thoughts.

However, have you ever heard someone who starts to speak  like
"I swear to Universe and him Who built it,
to the earth and him Who rounded it,
to the soul and him who shaped it
that
The one, cleans it (soul) will succed
the one who covers it (with sins) will fail.

(Of course in its original language it is really beautiful and accented, but it is impossible to translate it to another language protecting its artistic influence)

Are these look like human words? Human soul sourced words?

Think about the sentences you set up from whole your life, have you ever thought to speak like that?

So, what is the source of these words?

This is the meaning of Prophet, they transfer God's words to us, it can not belong to a human.

They don't like the sentences that humans made
You evidently don't have a clue what constitutes evidence. All you are doing is preaching the ignorance of our ancestors.

Nope, you just close your mind to deep thought which can led you see the truths.
You would say that as you have no truth to offer. Only the lies and deceits of the ancient beliefs that ensnared your ancestors.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:08:10 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:26:34 AM
..
Ottomans weren't like Byzantium or Persian try to conquer world for their prestige, they only had aim "carry Islam to other countries to rule them in justice" save their this world and other world.
Thus you justify war in the name of the religion of peace. Thank you for confirming just how dangerous Islam is. I had thought only the likes of ISIS were dangerous to the rest of the world. I was wrong.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:09:09 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:28:55 AM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
My local religionmart has the best picked cherries. You wouldn't happen to be their supplier, would you Islam?

just joke? or you mean something?
You don't even see the point made do you? smh
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:22:06 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:38:13 AM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.


People wrote the book. Other then that it would have to be as the Mormons. Mr. Smith had gold tablets that somehow disappeared, that would have had to weighed as much (by some estimates) 600 pounds, and he carried them hither and thither for a while. He claimed the Israelities came to this continent, but there is absolutely no evidence of them ever being here as he qualified and quantified it to be. For that to be true  there would have to be archeological evidence of which none has been found. And, look at the amount of floks that follow that religion's impossibilities. It does nothing but put clergy on their wrung of the social ladder.
No, the books came from people who "claim" to have gotten them, or enlightenment from God. In the case of the bible , it was written by Hebrew prophets. While we hold the the bible as a valid document, our understanding of it is very different then conventional thinking and interpretation.

We just not claim our holy book Quran came from Allah. We have undeniable evidences for it.

Quran gives some information which can be discovered only few years ago with high technology, like expanding of the universe, black wholes, embryonic states of fetus, the world's rotation on its axis etc.

Our Prophet Muhammad or any other man could know it 1500 year ago.
OFFS!!! Now we have the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter)

Fatih, your arguments are truly pathetic. A classic example is the attitude of Islam to the nature of the solar system. Prior to Copernicus and Galileo Islamic Scholars (there's an oxymoron if there ever was one) universally interpreted the solar system as geocentric. When the evidence and understanding became overwhelming outside Islam this was changed to heliocentric. This again shows that the Quran is a pile of rubbish. The same verses were interpreted by those in charge to suit the knowledge of the time. Exactly what the Catholic church did when faced with the Big Band and evolution. Apologetics at its very best.

Geocentrism and the Qur'an (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Geocentrism_and_the_Quran)


Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
...

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?
...
So now you have degenerated to defending your mythology by reference to a glorified work of essentially historical fiction. Well you think the Quran is real so I suppose we should expect nothing less. Given you studied the film with the same rigour you studied the Quran and the life of Mohamed I think it is reasonable to say you suffer from unmitigated confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2018, 10:41:47 AM
Looking at your explanation of the piece Icarus quoted it seems you are arguing for context - take the words in the context they are written.

So, "idolators" murdered Muslims back in history. In any culture that observes history as a living thing, and Islam with its adherence to its belief in the absolute truth in ancient writings must so qualify, leaves itself open to continuing that history into modern times. The schizoid nature of humans means there will always be those, violently inclined, who take the violent context as permission to continue that violence. Christians, being quite obviously idolators, must be guilty of those ancient crimes and therefore deserve no mercy. The Muslim memory seems to be centuries long, deliberately so, the brutality, executions, torture, suicide bombs etc,  practiced in Muslim countries, aas well as being exported to non-Muslim ones,  is a symptom of people who still live in the past.

I sometimes wish we could pull out of all Mudlim vountries, build a wall around the Muslim world, and leave you to fight out those ancient battles amongst youselves.

Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
...

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?
...
So now you have degenerated to defending your mythology by reference to a glorified work of essentially historical fiction. Well you think the Quran is real so I suppose we should expect nothing less. Given you studied the film with the same rigour you studied the Quran and the life of Mohamed I think it is reasonable to say you suffer from unmitigated confirmation bias.

Tank  I am sorry, your allegations only includes hate but nothing.
I am also a human and I am not responsible to response these kind of message because they wear out me.

I am here to help and share but not for destruct my self.

Therefore this is the last message you get from me.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Fatih on March 25, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 25, 2018, 10:41:47 AM
Looking at your explanation of the piece Icarus quoted it seems you are arguing for context - take the words in the context they are written.

So, "idolators" murdered Muslims back in history. In any culture that observes history as a living thing, and Islam with its adherence to its belief in the absolute truth in ancient writings must so qualify, leaves itself open to continuing that history into modern times. The schizoid nature of humans means there will always be those, violently inclined, who take the violent context as permission to continue that violence. Christians, being quite obviously idolators, must be guilty of those ancient crimes and therefore deserve no mercy. The Muslim memory seems to be centuries long, deliberately so, the brutality, executions, torture, suicide bombs etc,  practiced in Muslim countries, aas well as being exported to non-Muslim ones,  is a symptom of people who still live in the past.

I sometimes wish we could pull out of all Mudlim vountries, build a wall around the Muslim world, and leave you to fight out those ancient battles amongst youselves.

That is not true you asked about an ayah which includes historical event and I answered. that is it.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2018, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
...

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?
...
So now you have degenerated to defending your mythology by reference to a glorified work of essentially historical fiction. Well you think the Quran is real so I suppose we should expect nothing less. Given you studied the film with the same rigour you studied the Quran and the life of Mohamed I think it is reasonable to say you suffer from unmitigated confirmation bias.

Tank  I am sorry, your allegations only includes hate but nothing.
I am also a human and I am not responsible to response these kind of message because they wear out me.

I am here to help and share but not for destruct my self.

Therefore this is the last message you get from me.
Pity you can't face the truth. But that's no surprise. I suggest you join a forum of ex-Muslim atheists such asCouncil of Ex-Muslims of Britain (https://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/). You may learn something there if you are prepared to listen.

Remember I don't hate you. The mythology you support is a blight on humanity. You came here to preach and got your arse handed to you on a plate. The world is past religion. I have a load of atheist friends on Facebook many are ex-theists, both Christians and Muslims. You should see how upset Christians and Muslims get when their precious myths are very effectively rubbished by ex-theist atheists. And you know what? It's never going to stop. Religions can't hide any more. On-line there is no such thing as religious privilege. The Internet will be the death of religions. It might take a while but then we're having to undo thousands of years of indoctrination, ignorance and superstition. But it will happen because religions are lies on myths. As Abraham Lincoln said "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." and this will destroy religions.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 11:38:11 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
Quote from: Dave on March 25, 2018, 10:41:47 AM
Looking at your explanation of the piece Icarus quoted it seems you are arguing for context - take the words in the context they are written.

So, "idolators" murdered Muslims back in history. In any culture that observes history as a living thing, and Islam with its adherence to its belief in the absolute truth in ancient writings must so qualify, leaves itself open to continuing that history into modern times. The schizoid nature of humans means there will always be those, violently inclined, who take the violent context as permission to continue that violence. Christians, being quite obviously idolators, must be guilty of those ancient crimes and therefore deserve no mercy. The Muslim memory seems to be centuries long, deliberately so, the brutality, executions, torture, suicide bombs etc,  practiced in Muslim countries, aas well as being exported to non-Muslim ones,  is a symptom of people who still live in the past.

I sometimes wish we could pull out of all Mudlim vountries, build a wall around the Muslim world, and leave you to fight out those ancient battles amongst youselves.

That is not true you asked about an ayah which includes historical event and I answered. that is it.

I thought you'd left? Can't even follow your own rules. I think that was the best example of 'Shakers Law' I have ever seen!
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.

So the way you will solve the stereotype is to deny that there are Muslim terrorists because they aren't 'real' Muslims and that it's all some sort of Western conspiracy. OFFS!
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2018, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.

So the way you will solve the stereotype is to deny that there are Muslim terrorists because they aren't 'real' Muslims and that it's all some sort of Western conspiracy. OFFS!
Aw, be fair, Tank, some of those conspiracies come from what we call the East - Russia.

But there is truth there, some Western countries have, to their later regret, supported groups that later proved to simply be violent people. That those violent people hold onto their version of the Islamic faith is a blight on that Islamic faith.  If the Muslims wish to be rid of that stain they must deal with every killer and every supporter of those killers.

Since the two main groups involved in global violence, al Qaeda and Daesh, with their associates, plus the Taliban (who are seemingly promoting the world heroin market) are Sunni in origin what are you doing about this, Fatih? Simply denying they are not part of how you see your religion is not enough.

You were apparently born into, were educated by and have studied a very narrow field of hunan belief and experience. Before you can fully understand yourself you must understand how others see you and reconcile that in mutually understandable ways. All we have heard from you is, "You do not understand . . . You cannot accept . . ." etc. The Islamic and the midern Western mind (well, most of them) have grown far apart.

Like Tank I have no hatred in my heart towards you. I have no hatred of the peaceful and compassionate aspects of religion - believe what you wish. But you are not qualified, and have no right, to tell us what to beleive or how to think. You only preach from your narrow pulpit.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Guardian85 on March 25, 2018, 12:33:58 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 11:10:23 PM
The ottomans took boys from their families in the Balkans and Eastern European countries, force marched them to Turkey, and abused them until their spirits were broken and then brainwashed them into being obedient servants. Nothing willing about that.
And you called the ottomans just.

I think somepeople has really tallent to turn every good thing to evil.
First of all devsirmes were not slaves. Generally they were war orphans without family and they were protected by sending them to Turkish wealthy families. The biggest evidence that they were not slaves nor treated bad is, as I said before Ottomans has very famous and successful viziers (King's right hands) like
Rum Mehmed Paşa,
Veli Mahmud Paşa,
Yunus Paşa ,
Rüstem Paşa,
Sokollu Mehmed Paşa,
Kuyucu Murat Paşa
and
Pargalı İbrahim Paşa

another important thing; when Ottomans conquer a country (because of the Islamic rules) they had to protect them like they had do protect their families (their own folk).
Can you protect a county without soldiers? Especially considering you are an Emperor ruling nearly 1/3 of the world? Where can you find soldiers enough to do it.
Therefore they got 1/5 of the young boys from the country they conquer under military service. And they treated them as their own folk NOT as SLAVES!!!
If you don't live in an imaginary world in which everything is pink. You will understand this process was necessary to keep big Emperor alive "TO MAINTAIN PEOPLE RULING IN JUSTICE"
Ottomans weren't like Byzantium or Persian try to conquer world for their prestige, they only had aim "carry Islam to other countries to rule them in justice" save their this world and other world.
You say they got 1/5 of the young boys from the countries they invaded. You show then that you know they are slaves, as you speak of them as property. And as for the handful of people who managed to climb the social ladder in spite of their slavery, it is no surprise that in the 500 year history of this vile practice there would be a handful of golden boys. Nevermind the thousands who were force marched into an early grave for the Ottoman war machine.
You also speak of "ruling in justice". Funny thing to say just after speaking of how they conquered another people's country.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Old Seer on March 25, 2018, 12:34:48 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 11:35:17 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 09:23:26 AM
"However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion."

Why not? Do you not accept freedom?  Do you condone the killing of apostates?

I have chosen freedom in my real life (after life), instead of the dream which is called this life.
The freedome, drink, sex etc in this life continues at most for 60 years or something. And I traded this dream to eternal life of having all fun.. (including sex (with much beautiful girls) and drink (without headache and nausea etc.) that is it.

QuoteDo you condone the killing of apostates?
Our prophet Muhammad (P.U.H) never killed a person because he is not in his religion or he has another believe.
Lemme ask you here. ----Do those virgins have any say so in the matter, or are they brainless numskull sex maniacs just alive for your pleasings. Do Islamic women get  virgin guys, or is this a one way deal. If you had that many virgins in your house on earth the same clergyman who got you to believe would have you arrested for doing so. So, then you can go to heaven and do there what you can't do here. Where do those virgins come from and who are they. What you've got there is what is considered whores on earth but not in heaven. What this is--is-- you're a victim of another religion who sees people as just objects of use like any other religion. Ok, so you die and then go to heaven---- where did you get the new body from to have sex with all those ladies. How many kids will you have. Did you take into accounts how the ladies feel about this idea, and did they have parents.  It looks like you have some flaws in your plan that you'd best ask your clergyman about.  To a glutton heaven is an endless table of food. To a hunter heaven is an endless herd of buffalo. You can go to heaven and be a sex maniac, or whatever turns you on. When you get to heaven it would be wise to ask those young ladies about this deal.

What you have there is a classic ploy by clergy to gather followers for their own ego trip. Offer you ecstasy and you'll follow to anywhere. In the worlds idea of Christianity you'd be sitting on the steps of a marble building staring at God for all eternity eating grapes. :)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2018, 06:45:26 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 25, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 25, 2018, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
Hi all,
This is Fatih Barut, a Muslim from Turkiye.

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.

If any question about this.

I ll be happy to answer it.

I promise I will never assault in anyway, and I have the same expectation from you.

Note: In this message I will not just try to answer atheist questions, I ll also try to solve the notorious stereotypes about Islam because of some foreign manipulated, terrorist organisations which hide under the beautiful name of Islam.

P.S: I check the forum time by time, can be late to answer some questions. And if I oversee any of your messages please remind me as pm.

So the way you will solve the stereotype is to deny that there are Muslim terrorists because they aren't 'real' Muslims and that it's all some sort of Western conspiracy. OFFS!
Aw, be fair, Tank, some of those conspiracies come from what we call the East - Russia.

But there is truth there, some Western countries have, to their later regret, supported groups that later proved to simply be violent people. That those violent people hold onto their version of the Islamic faith is a blight on that Islamic faith.  If the Muslims wish to be rid of that stain they must deal with every killer and every supporter of those killers.

Since the two main groups involved in global violence, al Qaeda and Daesh, with their associates, plus the Taliban (who are seemingly promoting the world heroin market) are Sunni in origin what are you doing about this, Fatih? Simply denying they are not part of how you see your religion is not enough.

You were apparently born into, were educated by and have studied a very narrow field of hunan belief and experience. Before you can fully understand yourself you must understand how others see you and reconcile that in mutually understandable ways. All we have heard from you is, "You do not understand . . . You cannot accept . . ." etc. The Islamic and the midern Western mind (well, most of them) have grown far apart.

Like Tank I have no hatred in my heart towards you. I have no hatred of the peaceful and compassionate aspects of religion - believe what you wish. But you are not qualified, and have no right, to tell us what to beleive or how to think. You only preach from your narrow pulpit.
Spot on Dave.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Bluenose on March 25, 2018, 11:26:01 PM
I feel pretty much the same about all religions, but especially the Abrahamic ones.  Their big problem as far as I am concerned is that they encourage magical thinking.  Once you have convinced someone that your magic man in the sky actually exists, then it does not take much more to convince them that this magic man wants his followers to do all sorts of (mostly) stupid things - let's all go to a special building at regular times, all stand around, sit, kneel or even prostrate ourselves in synchronicity, mumble the same words together, sing songs and listen to lengthy harangues about how evil we are and how magic man is the only source of good.  Once you've got that down it does not take a lot to convince at least some people to do truly evil things to these who do not subscribe to their particular brand of magic man.  Obviously these people follow the wrong magic man, or the one wearing the wrong clothes, or with the wrong version of the book of spells.  But it will be all OK because magic man will fix everything after we die, he'll even reward us for being so righteous.

In the world today many of the people convinced to perform vile acts upon their fellow humans beings are followers of the Muslim faith, but Islam does not have any sort of mortgage on this kind of thing.  There have been plenty of Christian activists who have done terrible things in the name of their favourite magic man.  Just think of those fools shooting doctors outside women's health clinics claiming to be doing their magic man's work.  Also, before anyone says that this is just a minority, sure it is, but then consider the prevalence of child molestation perpetrated by those supposedly called by their magic man to be the leaders and to demonstrate the bast way to live according to their magic book?  It's become a cliche that the magic man's closest servants do the worst things to little kiddies.  Consider also the prejudice, sometimes expressed overtly, against the followers of a different magic man or against people whose lifestyle does not accord with that prescribed in their book of spells.

So, I say "a pox on all their houses".  Religion is a cancer of the mind.  It is a good thing that it seems to be finally losing its deathly grip on many countries, mine included.  It concerns me, however, that many people living in poorly developed countries without access to a decent education are still in the grip of the magic man.  I see the attraction of a magic man's reward after death for those who have little hope in this life.  But this is a cruel con job, designed so that those who have much more in this life don't feel guilt about not doing something to help their fellow citizens of this little speck of dirt in the vastness of the cosmos.  Oh, and to ensure the vast masses don't rise up and overthrow their "betters".
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 25, 2018, 11:49:28 PM
Just thought I'd post this here:

(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29511509_1760364267383758_759924540225865887_n.png?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeFxsm54-rfabNz0cAn6rCl-qQnF4Ev7_xRf76uSGulae9zk14vlh4KRf94rT19zoesQthbY9nXGRrQkITl5jj0fXgJChlnnnxj3bOmlVpB8VA&oh=5d632816d14f5a8b1be9ffce56af7002&oe=5B421359)
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2018, 05:50:09 AM
I think I mentioned I have the occasional times when I think we should just leave them to thrir own devices and dark sge mentslity. Oh for the day that we are not so dependant on their oil and gas!

They have mostly ruined all that was good in their arts and sciences, areas in which they once were eminent, through their interfactional fighting.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 26, 2018, 06:33:46 AM
I was waiting for 'Islam' to throw in the 'Islamic Science' card. So I did a bit of research. In the whole history of the Nobel prizes only one Muslim has won a prize in a science based subject. While over the same period 143 Jews have won a science prize. If you look at the current world population that's 1 prize per 1,800,000,000 Muslims and 1 prize per 140,000 Jews. That's a ratio of 128,000:1.

I do wonder how much of this disparity is simply down to the fact that is the dominant language in science.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2018, 08:29:02 AM
Also "Islamic science" has its origins in India and pre-Islamic Persia/Mesopotamia. Just for a change they did not destroy this knowledge as being haram because it was not revealed to their "prophet". They even advanced it somewhat and, admittedly, introduced it to Europe..

There was once (before 9/11 etc) a display promoting Islam in our local shopping mall. It made rificulous claims for its fintribution to science, msthemstics, the arts and even language. It claimed things the evidence shows were known in Greece long, long before Muhammed. Muslims are guilty of incredible pride and outright lies in what they teach their children.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.
(apologies if this has already been broached and answered in the previous 10 pages.)


I'm curious about how one can follow a book with obvious contradictory information, while simultaneously claiming that it has none AND that they are not lying.  It does seem to be a bit of a conundrum, does it not?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2018, 09:18:19 AM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.
(apologies if this has already been broached and answered in the previous 10 pages.)


I'm curious about how one can follow a book with obvious contradictory information, while simultaneously claiming that it has none AND that they are not lying.  It does seem to be a bit of a conundrum, does it not?

Thus is the nature of blind belief and brainwashing. Not having actually read the koran I don''t normally comment on this - but since there are parallels to the bible here . . .

Welcome, Madbunny, to our forum. Please tell us something of yourself in an intro thread.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 26, 2018, 01:04:23 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

I can accept atheist approaches in Christian countries, because of the logical and ethical contraversions in especially old testament which make it Unbelievable.
However, I can't accept any honest, logical man to deny Islam the last and the most beautiful religion.
(apologies if this has already been broached and answered in the previous 10 pages.)


I'm curious about how one can follow a book with obvious contradictory information, while simultaneously claiming that it has none AND that they are not lying.  It does seem to be a bit of a conundrum, does it not?
It is a conundrum of the first order. But the human mind is an imperfect evolved thing so It shouldn't be surprising what it is capable of!
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.

Even if Arabic had no symbol for vowel sounds... so what?
元音
Other languages don't have vowels in them either, or even letters in some cases.  It does not magically make the religions spawned under those writing systems more accurate.

It turns out though, that since we're talking about a human language and not a fictional one like Cthulhuan, or Klingon that Arabic has conventions for dealing with vowel sounds.
حَرَكَات
It does not magically make religions spawned under writing systems that contain vowel systems more accurate.


Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.



Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 26, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.

Even if Arabic had no symbol for vowel sounds... so what?
元音
Other languages don't have vowels in them either, or even letters in some cases.  It does not magically make the religions spawned under those writing systems more accurate.

It turns out though, that since we're talking about a human language and not a fictional one like Cthulhuan, or Klingon that Arabic has conventions for dealing with vowel sounds.
حَرَكَات
It does not magically make religions spawned under writing systems that contain vowel systems more accurate.


Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.

You arrived a week late damn it!
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:36:07 PM
So while reading all this, I had one 'what the fuck" moment about something said that was new to me. That Arabic is for fast minds because there are no vowels. I'd like to see that claim supported with some reliable data.

Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 06:26:17 PM
Arabic is a language which is designed for fast working human intelligence. Therefore it doesn't even have vowels. It is not easy to explain it in English. But lets say croissant is crssnt in Arabic.

For the rest of it, Islam has the same lack of reliable evidence problem of any other religion. Accepting it as true requires one to commit at least one logical fallacy which means that it is irrational to accept it as true.

Even if Arabic had no symbol for vowel sounds... so what?
元音
Other languages don't have vowels in them either, or even letters in some cases.  It does not magically make the religions spawned under those writing systems more accurate.

It turns out though, that since we're talking about a human language and not a fictional one like Cthulhuan, or Klingon that Arabic has conventions for dealing with vowel sounds.
حَرَكَات
It does not magically make religions spawned under writing systems that contain vowel systems more accurate.


Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2018, 04:31:10 PM
Do you think Fatih has given up on us godless ones?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 26, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Quote from: Dave on March 26, 2018, 04:31:10 PM
Do you think Fatih has given up on us godless ones?
Well he said he has. But I suspect that won't last :D
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.
We can take the simplest thing, a rainbow for example which is presumably bible god's message to humanity to never do the big flood again.
Yet at the same time, cafeteria Christians in the US have decided that the rainbow, due to its coopting by the LGBT community is a thing to be disdained.

So which is it, tangible evidence of gods great fuck up and by definition a miracle every time, or an abomination combination of colors?  As an atheist, the answer is incredibly easy to arrive at (it's neither)1


The problem is that people see what they want to see, they interpret things through their own filters.

When we look at a Red Panda, what species do you think this belongs to?
(note: hotlink)
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1r5nPQXXXXXXWapXXq6xXFXXX0/New-Room-Rug-Door-Mats-red-panda-face-Print-40x60cm-Doormat-Custom-Door-mat-Home-decor.jpg)

Knowing the answer, does that confirm or deny the existence of creation?
The Norse figured they had actual empirical evidence of a rainbow bridge, turns out... not so much.

Islam suffers from the same fallacies as all other religions, and like (almost) all other religions it also contains scripture warning people to neither doubt nor question it.







1 it is possibly a cosmic reminder that we're all better off listening to Pink Floyd albums than debating religion..
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.[...]
I'm just going to cut it right here, I read the whole thing, and my comment relates to the whole post:

I attach the qualifier "reliable" to "evidence" to get away from the murky kind of BS like, "even testimony is considered 'evidence'" because while technically it is, it's been demonstrated to be unreliable. I try to choose my words very carefully, I did not mean "actual" when I said "reliable."

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to try go into teaching mode instead of staying in discussion mode.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 26, 2018, 09:17:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.[...]
I'm just going to cut it right here, I read the whole thing, and my comment relates to the whole post:

I attach the qualifier "reliable" to "evidence" to get away from the murky kind of BS like, "even testimony is considered 'evidence'" because while technically it is, it's been demonstrated to be unreliable. I try to choose my words very carefully, I did not mean "actual" when I said "reliable."

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to try go into teaching mode instead of staying in discussion mode.

Davin, MadBunny has made 5 posts. Could it be he's just trying to join in and make a contribution and start a conversation?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 26, 2018, 09:19:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
..
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. ...

Then why not simply ask?
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Davin on March 26, 2018, 09:41:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 26, 2018, 09:17:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: Madbunny on March 26, 2018, 04:07:15 PM

Until somebody figures out Babel 17, or Dosadi, I suspect the same problem will continue to plague all languages.
I think it's incredibly unlikely, but I'll still change my mind if presented with enough reliable evidence.

That presents its own set of problems, notably agreeing on what constitutes actual evidence.[...]
I'm just going to cut it right here, I read the whole thing, and my comment relates to the whole post:

I attach the qualifier "reliable" to "evidence" to get away from the murky kind of BS like, "even testimony is considered 'evidence'" because while technically it is, it's been demonstrated to be unreliable. I try to choose my words very carefully, I did not mean "actual" when I said "reliable."

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said, where it is going, or why it matters in the current discussion. I'm also not sure why you feel it necessary to try go into teaching mode instead of staying in discussion mode.

Davin, MadBunny has made 5 posts. Could it be he's just trying to join in and make a contribution and start a conversation?
Quote from: Tank on March 26, 2018, 09:19:29 PM
Then why not simply ask?
There are a lot of possibilities, that's why I made that post. I tried to clarify my position while describing my points of confusion.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: MadBomr101 on March 27, 2018, 07:41:27 PM
I'm clearly late to this party. Regardless, I can settle this easily.

Faith said:
Quote from: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.

Fine. Have god show us the receipt for the universe and we'll concede his ownership of everything. At the very least, have him show us the box it came in.

Glad to be of help.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Icarus on March 27, 2018, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on March 27, 2018, 07:41:27 PM
I'm clearly late to this party. Regardless, I can settle this easily.

Faith said:
Quote from: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.

Actually a large proportion of holy books come from a huge printing house, majority owned by Rupert Murdock. 
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: MadBomr101 on March 27, 2018, 09:07:39 PM
Quote from: Icarus on March 27, 2018, 08:53:32 PMActually a large proportion of holy books come from a huge printing house, majority owned by Rupert Murdock.

So god's word and Fox news both come from the same source. In a fucked up way, it makes sense.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Tank on March 27, 2018, 09:21:26 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on March 27, 2018, 09:07:39 PM
Quote from: Icarus on March 27, 2018, 08:53:32 PMActually a large proportion of holy books come from a huge printing house, majority owned by Rupert Murdock.

So god's word and Fox news both come from the same source. In a fucked up way, it makes sense.
Rupert Murdock had his kids christened in the river Jordan!
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 02:40:23 PM
Well... Am I sorry to have missed this!

Tank..? Great job.

I can see how an Englishman in particular may feel a tiny bit extra disgusted with Islam in the wake of more or less current events, and... Yeah. Islam is fucking poison. The Religion of Trucks'o'Peace and Rape Jihad, which does its utmost to bring its own backwards values to the more enlightened shores and make them fester, by law or at the end of a gun. The only religion of which I am aware, which is "beyond ridicule" in countries, professing free expression as one of their core values...

...I'll just depress myself if I go on, so... Islamophobes of the World, unite! You have nothing to loose but your heads in some poorly made LiveLeak videos. Fuck Islam.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on May 06, 2018, 07:30:19 PM
Quote from: Fatih on March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
Hi all,
.

You get raked over the coals as badly as I sometime do.

Nice that you are resilient.

Islam has a Golden Rule or reciprocity type of rule or law.

Is that right?

If so please quote it. I would like to speak to how you apply it.

Regards
DL 
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Arturo on May 07, 2018, 02:07:36 AM
Wow holy shit. Tank fired the first shots on that one. And these were the heavy rounds.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: No one on May 07, 2018, 02:44:25 AM
Heavy artillery is often need to demolish the wall of ignorance.
Title: Re: Islam and Atheism
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2018, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: No one on May 07, 2018, 02:44:25 AM
Heavy artillery is often need to demolish the wall of ignorance.

Trouble is that wall is made of self-healing rubber bricks, damned thing keeps bouncing back!