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Why I reverted

Started by SisterAgatha, November 28, 2017, 05:16:23 AM

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SisterAgatha

I suppose my explanation for reconverting back to Catholicism takes some explaining. And no it is not a ploy to pretend I was an Atheist who "saw the light" or anything like that.

I was never really a committed atheist like you people, in the sense that I knew the ins and outs of atheism. I just sort  of bummed around without really believing in God. Honestly I was just mad at the Catholic Church for all the terrible things it had done over the years and very disheartened at the idea of God existing but not caring about the truly suffering of the world (I.e the starving people of Africa or the children dying of AIDS etc.)

Lately however..my life just felt like it was in sort of a funk, like stuck in one particular gear. I decided I needed a change. I started "dabbling" in Catholicism the way many people dabble in Wicca or dabble in Buddhism.

In the hustle and bustle of the modern world, it can seem nothing is permanent or stable. You do your 9-5 job or school hang our with your people when you can...but honestly people struggle with the meaning of the world.

Also..science or scientific discovery are not sufficient in and of themselves to establish meaning and purpose. They are useful and interesting in explaining how the world works or how it came to be... but science itself sometimes seems much more like an instruction manual than say a novel or epic poem.

It explains the how, but not the why.

I guess I should say what attracted me about Catholicism. I enjoy Jesus' teaching and his commandments (although Ill beat you to it.. I have yet to selll everything I have and give it to the poor..though I think he was just messing with the rich young man in that parable quite honestly).

Long story short, the whole reconciling faith and science, the idea you have to do something to make your way to heaven (unlike the free golden ticket to heaven that prods say you get when you accept Jesus), and the whole notion of having the celestial court of heaven (angels and saints and perhaps relatives) on your side is a nice plus too! Plus, you got to hand it to the Catholic Church, it sure has a lot of fancy bells and whistles and gorgeous architecture.

I know a lot of you atheists will sneer at me and ask me "well how do you know you have the right religion?" Well if you can suspend your disbelief in God for a few minutes and examine the religions of the world you might realize you don't have that many options to pick from when you are asking "What is the true religion?"

Half the religions of East Asia are really not God based religions at all, or dependent upon a God figure. From what I understand, Taoism, Confucianism and Jainism are honestly more of philosophies that try to inculcate good behavior and achieving nirvana, as opposed to worshipping one specific God.

Buddhism does not explicitly have a God and it too is more of a means of achieving nirvana or enlightenment. You might have to be reborn as many different people and creatures before that happens...but happen it certainly may. Buddhism has one thing going for it. Like Catholicism it has monks and nuns, who wear cool outfits!

Hinduism/Jainis is certainly God based but with many different Gods, all of them for some mysterious reason reflecting the culture, zoology and customs of the Indian subcontinent and Japan . I am not saying there aren't  some good ethics involved with either religion, but anyone seriously considering who the true God/Gods are might believe that its not the Gods of India/Japan only who made the world, any more than it is only the Gods of Scandinavia or Greece.

That brings us to the monotheist religions.

Judaism is a nice religion with a rich and storied past. However it would appear that it does not encourage converts and is for "jews only" as it were. You can convert of course but it is quite a lengthy process.

Islam has some interesting attributes, but it seems to me Mohammad just crib noted  the Talmud and the gospels and made his own unique blend. Plus why was it that the angel Gabriel appeared to nobody else?

That leaves Christianity.

Nobody believed in Protestantism or "Sola scripture" or anything of the like before Martin Luther left the Catholic priesthood. There certainly was no "Pastor Jim's New Hope presbyterian church" in the early Christian centuries.

Eastern Orthodoxy has a lot in common with the early Christians but the churches themselves have seemingly atrophied and become largely national entities (see Greek/Russian etc.) Though they are similar to the Catholic Church in many ways, they tend to be somewhat sclerotic or "bogged down in details" about nature of holy spirit, the intricacies of various counsels of the early centuries etc.

That leaves Roman Catholocism. I await your questions/comments

Sandra Craft

Well, I applaud you for what seems to be your first honest and only slightly insulting post.

Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 28, 2017, 05:16:23 AM
I was never really a committed atheist like you people, in the sense that I knew the ins and outs of atheism.

Honest question here, I'm not sneering or anything like that -- what exactly do you think are the "ins and outs of atheism"?  As far as I know, and am concerned, all atheism is is the lack of belief in any gods.  An atheist doesn't even necessarily rule out the supernatural (tho many of us do), they just don't accept the idea of deities, supernatural or not.

Anything else that gets associated with atheism (and I've heard a lot of nutso things people have claimed are atheist requirements) is purely optional, often just the personal quirk of an individual atheist.

QuoteAlso..science or scientific discovery are not sufficient in and of themselves to establish meaning and purpose. They are useful and interesting in explaining how the world works or how it came to be... but science itself sometimes seems much more like an instruction manual than say a novel or epic poem.

Science is a tool, nothing more.  However, its use and discoveries have inspired plenty of awe, and even a few epic poems, and given meaning to plenty of lives.  But I understand that it is a highly individual thing (like anything one takes meaning from) and I know many people who feel, as you do, that it isn't enough for them.

QuoteI guess I should say what attracted me about Catholicism. I enjoy Jesus' teaching and his commandments (although Ill beat you to it.. I have yet to selll everything I have and give it to the poor..though I think he was just messing with the rich young man in that parable quite honestly).

Serious question, you don't think the idea of Jesus "just messing with" someone can throw everything he supposedly said and did into question?

QuoteI know a lot of you atheists will sneer at me and ask me "well how do you know you have the right religion?" Well if you can suspend your disbelief in God for a few minutes and examine the religions of the world you might realize you don't have that many options to pick from when you are asking "What is the true religion?"

It's a valid question, tho I could do without the implication that I'm sneering when asking it rather than honestly curious or baffled.  You do realize that all the people who went down the same list of religions/philosophies and chose something other than Catholicism also have what they consider a solid justification for doing so, just as you do?  So the question remains.

QuoteI await your questions/comments

Here's one, and again, not sneering just honestly curious.  You eliminated several religions for not have a god, or at least not a specific one, to worship.  Why do you consider a god or the act of worship necessary? 
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Magdalena

Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 28, 2017, 05:16:23 AM
I suppose my explanation for reconverting back to Catholicism takes some explaining. And no it is not a ploy to pretend I was an Atheist who "saw the light" or anything like that.

I was never really a committed atheist like you people, in the sense that I knew the ins and outs of atheism. I just sort  of bummed around without really believing in God. Honestly I was just mad at the Catholic Church for all the terrible things it had done over the years and very disheartened at the idea of God existing but not caring about the truly suffering of the world (I.e the starving people of Africa or the children dying of AIDS etc.)

Lately however..my life just felt like it was in sort of a funk, like stuck in one particular gear. I decided I needed a change. I started "dabbling" in Catholicism the way many people dabble in Wicca or dabble in Buddhism.

In the hustle and bustle of the modern world, it can seem nothing is permanent or stable. You do your 9-5 job or school hang our with your people when you can...but honestly people struggle with the meaning of the world.

Also..science or scientific discovery are not sufficient in and of themselves to establish meaning and purpose. They are useful and interesting in explaining how the world works or how it came to be... but science itself sometimes seems much more like an instruction manual than say a novel or epic poem.

It explains the how, but not the why.

I guess I should say what attracted me about Catholicism. I enjoy Jesus' teaching and his commandments (although Ill beat you to it.. I have yet to selll everything I have and give it to the poor..though I think he was just messing with the rich young man in that parable quite honestly).

Long story short, the whole reconciling faith and science, the idea you have to do something to make your way to heaven (unlike the free golden ticket to heaven that prods say you get when you accept Jesus), and the whole notion of having the celestial court of heaven (angels and saints and perhaps relatives) on your side is a nice plus too! Plus, you got to hand it to the Catholic Church, it sure has a lot of fancy bells and whistles and gorgeous architecture.

I know a lot of you atheists will sneer at me and ask me "well how do you know you have the right religion?" Well if you can suspend your disbelief in God for a few minutes and examine the religions of the world you might realize you don't have that many options to pick from when you are asking "What is the true religion?"

...
Sounds like personal problems to me.  :reading:

...And I still don't like you.





You keep referring to us as, "You people" and "You, sneering atheist." Do you hate us? Do you think we hate you? Why aren't you with "your people?" Did you come here hoping you could make us "love" your god?  :puke:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Davin

I'd just like to see SisterAg actually have a conversation.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Magdalena

Quote from: Davin on November 28, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
I'd just like to see SisterAg actually have a conversation.
...I would like to see him/her have a conversation with The Asmo, or you.  :grin:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Biggus Dickus

To be honest, it would appear from what you wrote that all you did was go shopping for a religion, and picked Catholicism because it appealed to you the most (Nice churches, good incense, etc...) However. You didn't really state a personal directive or reason why you actually believe in the God of Abraham as opposed to other god or gods?

Many folks will describe a personal relationship they have with God or Jesus if you question why they believe...you don't seem to fit that bill as you never speak of a personal relationship with Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Almost seems like you picked a religion because you feel safer or more comfortable following the religion, plus there are all the perks that come with it, you know like "Eternal Salvation".

But do you really believe in God, in Jesus, in the Holy Spirit? The sacred Trinity of the Holy See?

I have my doubts that you really do...you seem like so many who believe because that's what they were brought up to do. It's woven so tight into the fabric of their lives that they don't really know how to go about dismissing or rejecting these fuzzy beliefs in a god, an afterlife and eternal damnation.



I am fairly certain a god or creator doesn't exist. In fact I consider myself a 6 on the Richard Dawkins' scale.

Richard Dawkins' Belief Scale Scoring Rubric
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


I don't see me ever changing that position, ever...I've been an atheist for almost 30 years. However. If something did cause me to lower my scoring to a 2 or 3 that wouldn't mean I would become religious.

Believing in a god or gods is to me irrelevant to whether one follows an religion or not. Ok, so maybe there is a god, so what...I'll continue to live my life the way I do now, religions themselves have repeatedly shown us they are designed and manufactured by humans.
Of course here's where the religious folk will try to entrap you. They'll say, "Ah, butt Bruno, you are a sinner, you need to be saved"!

Don't think so...

I recommend you read "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, by Karen Armstrong. (She's a fantastic writer, and she is also a former Nun. So I would also recommend "Through the Narrow Gate" which is her intimate memoir of life inside a Catholic convent. Seems sorta of relevant in many ways)

Religion can bring folks comfort, peace, even joy, but it's not necessary to believe in those things to have a meaningful and joyous life. Quite the contrary actually.
"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Dave

My stance would be:

I never experienced or observed any evidence that the supernatural, good or evil, exists. I have, however, seen ample evidence in others that their diety or other "sacred" entity is a product of a combination of personality,  nurture, education  and life experience. As a personal "need" this makes it a valid part of the "toolkit" of the individual's life.

But, something was mentioned on a radio prog, that for many group participation is important. Physially sharing the experience is important to them - we humans are mostly gregarious do I can understand that.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Father Bruno on November 28, 2017, 03:49:37 PM
Believing in a god or gods is to me irrelevant to whether one follows an religion or not. Ok, so maybe there is a god, so what...I'll continue to live my life the way I do now, religions themselves have repeatedly shown us they are designed and manufactured by humans.

And thereby susceptible to the same drawback of being corrupted by power as everything else connected with humans is.  Then there's the closely related issue I almost always have to clear up when discussing religion with theists -- that believing in a god and worshiping a god are two separate things. 

I can't think of a single god that's ever been described to me that I'd be willing to worship, despite the purported benefits of doing so, even if I were provided with compelling evidence of its existence.  Given evidence I'd have to accept its existence, there'd be nothing else to do about it, but that's it. 

I have to admit that, based on what little I know about her, White Buffalo Woman seems decent enough but the not knowing very much is a considerable stumbling block.

QuoteI recommend you read "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, by Karen Armstrong. (She's a fantastic writer, and she is also a former Nun. So I would also recommend "Through the Narrow Gate" which is her intimate memoir of life inside a Catholic convent. Seems sorta of relevant in many ways)

Strongly second this -- love Karen Armstrong, she's my favorite religious writer.  Also worthwhile, I think, is her history of the bible.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Davin

Quote from: Magdalena on November 28, 2017, 01:58:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 28, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
I'd just like to see SisterAg actually have a conversation.
...I would like to see him/her have a conversation with The Asmo, or you.  :grin:
I've tried.  :(
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Magdalena

Quote from: Davin on November 28, 2017, 04:48:30 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on November 28, 2017, 01:58:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 28, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
I'd just like to see SisterAg actually have a conversation.
...I would like to see him/her have a conversation with The Asmo, or you.  :grin:
I've tried.  :(
:therethere:
I know you've tried.
We've all tried.

SisterAgatha...SisterAgatha...Sister...Sister...

...Just Rude!  >:(

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Recusant

Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 28, 2017, 05:16:23 AMI know a lot of you atheists will sneer at me and ask me "well how do you know you have the right religion?"

Yes, that is a standard atheist response to those who assert without any respectable evidence that they follow the True Religion™, and it's a very reasonable response. While some atheists do sneer as they respond to a believer's testimony, perhaps they have their reasons.

Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 28, 2017, 05:16:23 AMWell if you can suspend your disbelief in God for a few minutes and examine the religions of the world you might realize you don't have that many options to pick from when you are asking "What is the true religion?"

No, I don't realize that. I've spent time learning about many religions over the years (I have a fondness for mythology) and I have yet to come anywhere near exhausting what's on offer. There are many more religions than you listed and your reasons for rejecting the few you bothered to examine are shallow: I don't think you ever seriously considered them. In my opinion that's because despite your daring excursions, you never genuinely left the Catholic fold. Your justification for cleaving to the Catholic god and rejecting the hundreds of other gods doesn't stand up to a moment's scrutiny.

* * *

Since people are taking this opportunity to recommend worthwhile books on Christian mythology, I'll offer once again God: A Biography by Jack Miles. All of us here have been around this particular mulberry bush many times before but happily for you there are some who aren't completely averse to treading the familiar path again.  ;)
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


AngelOfDeath

#11
many many posts about being a catholic nun.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 28, 2017, 05:16:23 AM
I suppose my explanation for reconverting back to Catholicism takes some explaining. And no it is not a ploy to pretend I was an Atheist who "saw the light" or anything like that.

I've assumed you aren't female.
I think you are probably atheist,
doing an in drag Catholic parody.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

SisterAgatha

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on November 29, 2017, 07:24:48 AM
so from what I gather you lied in many many posts about being a catholic nun.  If you're a catholic at all my guess is you're a lukewarm catholic at best.  Maybe I summon a demon to visit you one night soon.  If you're faith is strong you will be protected.  If not, you might have quite an experience to remember.  It isn't difficult to do.  Expect it.  It will be on its way.

I dont get why people are so upset about my misrepresentation as a nun. It obviously was a joke, and anyone with a cursory knowledge of movies/tv shows about the Catholic church  in that era ( or anyone who ever read Angela's Ashes) would know I was just aping that era.

Good luck with that demon. I have a room filled to the brim with icons,rosaries, bibles and books of saints. I doubt he/it could do anything or would even want to be there. I am under the Virgin Mary's protection!!!


Also, what do you all think of my analysis of the major faiths of the world? I am of course excluding wicca and other forms of paganism and indeed the polytheism that has been found in most countries and cultures throughout history. The reason I do is there often isn't a distinct ethical system that goes along with them.

I don't know all the polytheistic religions, but the gods of greek/norse paganism generally were not good examples, did not expect humanity to be (aside from the bare minium of moral criteria) and generally did not want a personal relationship with humanity...unless it was an amorous one with a certain member of the opposite sex. That Zeus certainly was a hound dog...!!!


Davin

Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 29, 2017, 03:26:11 PM
I dont get why people are so upset about my misrepresentation as a nun.
That might be because people are not upset. Not trusting what you say doesn't mean we are upset.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.