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abortion poll

Started by pytheas, February 21, 2012, 07:37:09 PM

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Amicale

Quote from: Stevil on February 28, 2012, 02:30:26 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 27, 2012, 09:08:19 PM
Instead, he can give up his parental rights entirely if he doesn't want anything to do with a baby.
If the woman wants to keep it then by law she is entitled to child support from the father.

OK, in the states the law must be different then. Based on my understanding, here in Canada when a parent gives up parental rights, they give up all rights and responsibilities -- they no longer have to pay child support, but they also do not ever have the 'right' to the child, even if they change their mind later. Typically, a judge won't allow someone to give up parental rights just to get out of paying child support, there need to be other factors... but I imagine it's been done before.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Stevil

Quote from: Ali on February 27, 2012, 07:04:03 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 27, 2012, 06:21:34 PM
This is sometimes the result of law protecting the woman's right to abort but not the man's right to abort.
I would never condone this, it is horrific, but it is a reality of our society, given the rules we live under.

Which rules would be better?
I don't have an answer to that.

Stevil

Quote from: Amicale on February 28, 2012, 03:27:09 AM
OK, in the states the law must be different then. Based on my understanding, here in Canada when a parent gives up parental rights, they give up all rights and responsibilities -- they no longer have to pay child support, but they also do not ever have the 'right' to the child, even if they change their mind later. Typically, a judge won't allow someone to give up parental rights just to get out of paying child support, there need to be other factors... but I imagine it's been done before.
I live in NZ.

Maybe there is a way out, I don't know. I would think the woman would have to agree and be willing to miss out on child support.

Asmodean

Quote from: Anne D. on February 28, 2012, 03:05:26 AM
By "surrounding circumstances" do you mean actions on the woman's part?
Her actions, the weather or even time of day if it played a part... Surrounding circumstances are a sum of causes and triggers.

QuoteWhat surrounding circumstances would make an attack like that okay?
As stated, I find the act itself disagreeable, but for the attackers part, I would not call him an evil asshole if he was clinically insane or thoroughly provoked or otherwise put under the right stressers. That's from the top of my head.
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pytheas

Quote from: Stevil on February 28, 2012, 02:30:26 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 27, 2012, 09:08:19 PM
Instead, he can give up his parental rights entirely if he doesn't want anything to do with a baby.
If the woman wants to keep it then by law she is entitled to child support from the father.
and she usually nails him with DNA test

Amicale, I was told I had no sisters and brothers because of 8 miscarriages before me, including 2 doctor-induced mistakes and 1 airplane accident. Also I imagined the clockwork orange flavour on the issue and amazed I read it actually happened! Shit happens.Also,  People make children to use them, I dont like it , but it happens. Children can be bought for sex slaves, I dont like it , but it happens
I do not think it is ok to have a child and not to be connected to it. Its THe CHILD'S right.
women and men parents are to equal degree but in differing  manner crass in this field.
After all, there are sperm banks, the godlike woman needs no attention from man anymore, and there will be cloning and surrogate immune-humanised female monkeys to bear them out for all those hardcore olympic boys out there.

I want to keep the ideal of sexual love and body admiration route to child-making, but that should require substantially more than a dick for the man, and in cases a Msc/M.arts degree in mothering for the woman.

So as the surgeon;s motto for tumor suspision "if in doubt, better out"

On the way out, exit, abort, release, there should be no bars, and some conducive enabling more,easier out

if you are to keep, well, questions and tests, as severe as you should be asking yourself
"Not what we have But what we enjoy, constitutes our abundance."
"Freedom is the greatest fruit of self-sufficiency"
"Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little."
by EPICURUS 4th century BCE

Guardian85

Quote from: pytheas on February 28, 2012, 07:47:36 PM

I do not think it is ok to have a child and not to be connected to it. Its THe CHILD'S right.
women and men parents are to equal degree but in differing  manner crass in this field.
After all, there are sperm banks, the godlike woman needs no attention from man anymore, and there will be cloning and surrogate immune-humanised female monkeys to bear them out for all those hardcore olympic boys out there.

Wow, you just sounded like some of those anti-science, pro-life, one man-one woman crazy christians. Scary


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Anne D.

Quote from: Asmodean on February 28, 2012, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 28, 2012, 03:05:26 AM
By "surrounding circumstances" do you mean actions on the woman's part?
Her actions, the weather or even time of day if it played a part... Surrounding circumstances are a sum of causes and triggers.

QuoteWhat surrounding circumstances would make an attack like that okay?
As stated, I find the act itself disagreeable, but for the attackers part, I would not call him an evil asshole if he was clinically insane or thoroughly provoked or otherwise put under the right stressers. That's from the top of my head.

Yeah, it's possible with any act of violence that the actor could be insane and therefore not fully responsible for his/her actions. The attack described, though, (rugby player and friend call up pregnant girlfriend to arrange meeting and then beat her so she aborts) sounds premeditated. It also just seems a pretty egregious act to say "I can't judge" about. If the entire story was "A man hit a woman," then I'd be with you on the "we don't know the circumstances" idea, but I think this story is fleshed out enough to say, yeah, w/o qualification, that's horrible. Not trying to attack you or get holier than thou. I just had a big "Huh?" reaction when I read your first post about not judging the rugby guy.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 08:11:23 PM
Quote from: pytheas on February 28, 2012, 07:47:36 PM

I do not think it is ok to have a child and not to be connected to it. Its THe CHILD'S right.
women and men parents are to equal degree but in differing  manner crass in this field.
After all, there are sperm banks, the godlike woman needs no attention from man anymore, and there will be cloning and surrogate immune-humanised female monkeys to bear them out for all those hardcore olympic boys out there.

Wow, you just sounded like some of those anti-science, pro-life, one man-one woman crazy christians. Scary

yeah, really...

are you against single parents too? i mean, sheesh...
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Ali

Quote from: Anne D. on February 29, 2012, 02:51:13 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 28, 2012, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 28, 2012, 03:05:26 AM
By "surrounding circumstances" do you mean actions on the woman's part?
Her actions, the weather or even time of day if it played a part... Surrounding circumstances are a sum of causes and triggers.

QuoteWhat surrounding circumstances would make an attack like that okay?
As stated, I find the act itself disagreeable, but for the attackers part, I would not call him an evil asshole if he was clinically insane or thoroughly provoked or otherwise put under the right stressers. That's from the top of my head.

Yeah, it's possible with any act of violence that the actor could be insane and therefore not fully responsible for his/her actions. The attack described, though, (rugby player and friend call up pregnant girlfriend to arrange meeting and then beat her so she aborts) sounds premeditated. It also just seems a pretty egregious act to say "I can't judge" about. If the entire story was "A man hit a woman," then I'd be with you on the "we don't know the circumstances" idea, but I think this story is fleshed out enough to say, yeah, w/o qualification, that's horrible. Not trying to attack you or get holier than thou. I just had a big "Huh?" reaction when I read your first post about not judging the rugby guy.

As someone that interacts with you and kind of considers you a friend, I find your lack of judgement appealing.  As a woman looking at a man who carried out a plan to beat a woman until she miscarried, I find your lack of judgement disturbing.   :)

Will

I see it as a matter of biological connection. The zygote, embryo and fetus is biologically connected to the mother and relies entirely on the mother's biological processes for life. It's a much, much deeper dependence and connection than any connection after birth. Until the baby is born and the cord cut, the soon-to-be-human is still potential individual life, not yet an individual deserving of the same protections as children and adults. Abortion is tragic, but preventing it in any way is a violation of one of the most fundamental rights human beings have enshrined in law, the right to control one's own body. I would no sooner assert control over an abortion than I would to remove someone's arm or drug someone without their consent.

So yeah, pro-choice single male.  :)
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Amicale

Quote from: Will on February 29, 2012, 04:46:51 AM
I see it as a matter of biological connection. The zygote, embryo and fetus is biologically connected to the mother and relies entirely on the mother's biological processes for life. It's a much, much deeper dependence and connection than any connection after birth. Until the baby is born and the cord cut, the soon-to-be-human is still potential individual life, not yet an individual deserving of the same protections as children and adults. Abortion is tragic, but preventing it in any way is a violation of one of the most fundamental rights human beings have enshrined in law, the right to control one's own body. I would no sooner assert control over an abortion than I would to remove someone's arm or drug someone without their consent.

So yeah, pro-choice single male.  :)

Hmm... Will, you said "until the baby is born and the cord cut", the baby isn't deserving of the same protections as children and adults.

1. Do you have any problem with third trimester/late stage abortions? That is, after the baby would almost certainly be viable?

2. If it was your girlfriend or wife who was pregnant, and she decided to terminate the pregnancy a week before the baby was due, would you still think the baby wasn't deserving of protection? Would you protest, or be OK with the termination?

You don't have to answer those at all, if you don't want to. I'm not trying to make you or anyone else out into a bad guy, I'm pro-choice also, at least for the first two trimesters for sure, and in ALL cases of medical emergency no matter when in the pregnancy it is. But I'm playing devil's advocate, because I do think that it's possible to make an argument about the point of viability. If a baby is after the point of viability and could likely be born with very few complications/survive on his or her own, that's where abortion gets really iffy for me, and that's where I think the baby almost certainly DOES obtain the same rights an already-born human has. After all, if they could live and breathe and survive and whether they live or die boils down entirely to their current "location"... well... I'd say they've obtained any of the faculties an already-born baby has, aside from actual birth.

What do you (or anyone else) think of those ideas? Rip 'em to shreds if you can, I'm looking to pin my own ideas down more precisely.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Stevil

Quote from: Amicale on February 29, 2012, 05:09:24 AM
But I'm playing devil's advocate, because I do think that it's possible to make an argument about the point of viability. If a baby is after the point of viability and could likely be born with very few complications/survive on his or her own, that's where abortion gets really iffy for me.
Yes, I think you have to visualise the event.

You either provide a magic pill which poisons the baby but leaves the mother unscathed, or you cut the cord and let the baby suffocate inside the womb, or you deliver the baby and then knock it on the head to kill it. In all cases you are having to do something special in order to kill the child rather than simply not doing something special to keep it alive.

But if we think of a 36 week unborn, then you have to consider that we have the technology to keep it alive. You would have to prevent putting it in an incubator and simply let it die on its own. But where do you put it? Stick it in a closet somewhere out of sight and then come back in an hour or two hoping that it is dead?

Stevil

Oh, and the other dilemma.

What if a pregnant woman gets mugged and her unborn baby dies?

Does the attacker get done for murder?

Tom62

Quote from: Stevil on February 29, 2012, 06:09:25 AM
Oh, and the other dilemma.

What if a pregnant woman gets mugged and her unborn baby dies?

Does the attacker get done for murder?
I think that if the attacker knows (or can see) that the women is pregnant then it should be murder. If that is not the case then it should be manslaughter.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Will

Quote from: Amicale on February 29, 2012, 05:09:24 AM1. Do you have any problem with third trimester/late stage abortions? That is, after the baby would almost certainly be viable?
Do I have a problem with them? Absolutely. As I said, abortion is tragic. Do I think they should be illegal? No. I really have concluded that 'life', using the modern political terminology, begins at birth. Until there is biological separation from the mother, the father, the state, the church, and everyone else needs to stay out of it and allow the pregnant woman to come to her own decision, as it truly is her body.
Quote from: Amicale on February 29, 2012, 05:09:24 AM2. If it was your girlfriend or wife who was pregnant, and she decided to terminate the pregnancy a week before the baby was due, would you still think the baby wasn't deserving of protection? Would you protest, or be OK with the termination?
I would protest, yes, but not in any legal way. If I were prepared to care for the baby, I would offer to take sole custody and become a single father. Still, it would be an offer, a plea, not a demand. At the end of the day, the decision to abort or not to abort is not mine.

My position may seem absolutist, and I suppose it is, but my position is both one rooted in my principles and in the political reality of the slippery slope. Disallowing abortions of any kind opens the door to more and more restrictions, most of which are based in religious doctrine, not medicine or principle. The right to choose is as fundamental a human right in my mind as freedom of expression, freedom of religion, and the right to a fair trial. It is the freedom of privacy.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.