Quote from: OdysseusThere's a lot of money to be made from the religious community. What is your opinion on selling religious crap to the theists and ripping them off? Given that you're an atheist (or maybe agnostic), would you have any moral issues with selling religious trinkets to the faithful?
Hypothetically, if I've got a truckload of religious stuff that I want to sell on Ebay, and the theists are queueing up to buy my Handy Bendy Jesus with flashing cross and detachable loincloth, what's the problem? If some dumbass is prepared to shell out thousands for a piece of toast with Jesus' gurning coumtenance singed into it, is it wrong to take their money and blow the lot on coke and whores? (Jimmy Swaggart... don't answer that one!)
There are some obvious issues here, and probably some not so obvious. What do you think?
Yes there's a problem. I'm a person of integrity. I would no more lie to take money from a christian than I'd lie to take candy from a child. Fleecing money from anyone is more a reflection on the person doing the fleecing than on anything else. My integrity isn't for sale, even to the gullible.
Quote from: squidfetish on January 06, 2012, 07:39:27 PM
Quote from: OdysseusThere's a lot of money to be made from the religious community. What is your opinion on selling religious crap to the theists and ripping them off? Given that you're an atheist (or maybe agnostic), would you have any moral issues with selling religious trinkets to the faithful?
Hypothetically, if I've got a truckload of religious stuff that I want to sell on Ebay, and the theists are queueing up to buy my Handy Bendy Jesus with flashing cross and detachable loincloth, what's the problem? If some dumbass is prepared to shell out thousands for a piece of toast with Jesus' gurning coumtenance singed into it, is it wrong to take their money and blow the lot on coke and whores? (Jimmy Swaggart... don't answer that one!)
There are some obvious issues here, and probably some not so obvious. What do you think?
I'd be no more or less cynical about profiteering from the religious as profiteering from any other merchandise (I live in London where rip-off comes as standard). It's just not a business I'd derive any satisfaction from - you've gotta believe in your product to sell it effectively. Coke and whores however... well, our target customer is as likely to go for those as the trinkets...!
What if you started a business that would make money now but only would require you to work if their religious expectations came true?
For instance right now, I could start a business that would be an "After Rapture Pet Adoption Agency". Right now, they could pay me a fee to become one of my clients. Then, after the rapture comes and they are whisked away to heaven I would come round to their house and pick up their pet and make sure it's taken care of properly. Either I would take care of it myself or have a network of other non-Christian folks that would agree to take those pets when the time came.
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 06, 2012, 08:54:23 PM
What if you started a business that would make money now but only would require you to work if their religious expectations came true?
For instance right now, I could start a business that would be an "After Rapture Pet Adoption Agency". Right now, they could pay me a fee to become one of my clients. Then, after the rapture comes and they are whisked away to heaven I would come round to their house and pick up their pet and make sure it's taken care of properly. Either I would take care of it myself or have a network of other non-Christian folks that would agree to take those pets when the time came.
That's a great idea. There must be many Christians worried about their loved pets starving to death after they are whisked up to heaven leaving them behind.
Quote from: Stevil on January 06, 2012, 09:08:12 PM
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 06, 2012, 08:54:23 PM
What if you started a business that would make money now but only would require you to work if their religious expectations came true?
For instance right now, I could start a business that would be an "After Rapture Pet Adoption Agency". Right now, they could pay me a fee to become one of my clients. Then, after the rapture comes and they are whisked away to heaven I would come round to their house and pick up their pet and make sure it's taken care of properly. Either I would take care of it myself or have a network of other non-Christian folks that would agree to take those pets when the time came.
That's a great idea. There must be many Christians worried about their loved pets starving to death after they are whisked up to heaven leaving them behind.
If only someone on the internet would do something like that...
Eternal Earthbound Pets (http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/)
After the Rapture Pet Care (http://www.aftertherapturepetcare.com/)
Post Rapture Pet Care (http://postrapturepetcare.com/)
Dammit! Someone always beats me to the great ideas!
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 06, 2012, 09:12:54 PMDammit! Someone always beats me to the great ideas!
You could always start getting loans that you promise to pay back tenfold when you get into heaven.
Edit: wait, I think I'll make that website...
Problem is, I am not going to heaven. Even if there is a God, I am not making it now. And that plays too close to the lines of fraud. Whereas my other idea would be completely self sustaining business for many years to come, without being a fraud because I would still fulfill the service when the time came, just hasn't come yet. But having money that they could take to heaven or I would give back to them when they go to heaven, little too close for me. People die on a regular basis, whereas the rapture doesn't come around very often.
What else would people need to take care of after they are whisked away?
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 06, 2012, 09:28:17 PM
Problem is, I am not going to heaven. Even if there is a God, I am not making it now. And that plays too close to the lines of fraud. Whereas my other idea would be completely self sustaining business for many years to come, without being a fraud because I would still fulfill the service when the time came, just hasn't come yet. But having money that they could take to heaven or I would give back to them when they go to heaven, little too close for me. People die on a regular basis, whereas the rapture doesn't come around very often.
What else would people need to take care of after they are whisked away?
Their atheist or unbaptised children
I confess I've sometimes wondered what would happen if I burned a vague image of virgin mary or jesus into my toast and tried to sell it on ebay. It's worked in the past, to the tune of thousands of dollars.
But I have to agree with Traveler, I'd probably hate myself afterward for doing it.
I thought I saw a toaster just for sale the other day that had the coils in it shaped so that it would always burn that image or an image that you could pretend was Jesus. Seems that would be the goose that laid the golden egg.
http://www.amazon.com/Burnt-Impressions-jesus247-Jesus-Toaster/dp/B0042QRYO8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325887317&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Burnt-Impressions-Nativity-Toaster/dp/B006GTZDOM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1325887317&sr=8-3
And both toasters are in stock.
That is awesome! Might be a good gag gift
Quote from: Traveler on January 06, 2012, 07:55:38 PM
Yes there's a problem. I'm a person of integrity. I would no more lie to take money from a christian than I'd lie to take candy from a child. Fleecing money from anyone is more a reflection on the person doing the fleecing than on anything else. My integrity isn't for sale, even to the gullible.
I guess it depends on what it is that you're selling. If it's a scam (like promising to adopt their pets after the rapture if they pay you now) then I would say that it is fleecing them. If you are actually selling them a product (such as a bendy Jesus on a flashing cross) as long as you are giving them exactly what you advertise, if they are willing to pay X for it, then how is that fleecing them? Sure,
we think it's junk, but that's kind of a basic in economics - as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.
Personally, I wouldn't sell flashy bendy Jesuses either because I wouldn't want to associate my name with that crap, but I don't think that it's a scam if another atheist DID, so long as the theist actually got the product that they paid for.
Quote from: Ali on January 06, 2012, 10:08:07 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 06, 2012, 07:55:38 PM
Yes there's a problem. I'm a person of integrity. I would no more lie to take money from a christian than I'd lie to take candy from a child. Fleecing money from anyone is more a reflection on the person doing the fleecing than on anything else. My integrity isn't for sale, even to the gullible.
I guess it depends on what it is that you're selling. If it's a scam (like promising to adopt their pets after the rapture if they pay you now) then I would say that it is fleecing them. If you are actually selling them a product (such as a bendy Jesus on a flashing cross) as long as you are giving them exactly what you advertise, if they are willing to pay X for it, then how is that fleecing them? Sure, we think it's junk, but that's kind of a basic in economics - as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.
Personally, I wouldn't sell flashy bendy Jesuses either because I wouldn't want to associate my name with that crap, but I don't think that it's a scam if another atheist DID, so long as the theist actually got the product that they paid for.
Religious folks get fleeced everywhere they go, doesn't make it right but it's true. God will forgive your sins if you drop a little in the plate as it goes by. Some take 10% right off the top, and if they don't think you are giving your fair share, they ask for your income tax statements. 10% of what you earn will make things square with God. Cause apparently the hit on Jesus...Er, I mean, Jesus sacrifice was actually paid for on an installment plan with revolving credit.
Then they get hit with fees to have their pets taken care of after the rapture.
My feeling is that if you are providing goods and services to them, even though it is religiously motivated, and you are holding up your end of the bargain you are not ripping them off.
As far as the pet care thing, I don't see how that is ripping them off. Let me illustrate.
I don't think that I need my car detailed, so, I don't go and get it detailed. You may prefer to have a looking car and you think you need to go get your car detailed. Now, we some some religious folks who think their pets need to be taken care of in the future. They certainly can't have that done within there own belief system because everyone will be with them. So they have to go to an outside source that will take care of their pets once they are gone. It is simply a service they feel they need. I don't see how that is ripping them off. To rip them off you would have to neglect picking up their pets when and if the rapture really does happen.
But if you go and get your car detailed, your car actually gets detailed.
I would equate selling Rapture Pet Care Services with selling someone some oceanfront property in AZ. YOU know that what you are selling is worthless and will never be delivered. Hence, scam.
Quote from: Ali on January 06, 2012, 10:27:41 PM
I would equate selling Rapture Pet Care Services with selling someone some oceanfront property in AZ. YOU know that what you are selling is worthless and will never be delivered. Hence, scam.
I would actually equate it to your auto insurance policy. With a little better odds though. If you never have a wreck, your auto insurance policy is worthless, yet you have to have it.
Or maybe a better one would be flood insurance in the Sahara Desert. Would it be wrong of me to sell such a policy if someone wanted it?
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 06, 2012, 10:31:36 PM
Or maybe a better one would be flood insurance in the Sahara Desert. Would it be wrong of me to sell such a policy if someone wanted it?
Yes, I think it would be wrong of you to sell flood insurance in the Sahara, even if someone wanted it. You would be taking advantage of a delusional person. Which makes it a perfect analogy for the Rapture Insurance.
Quote from: Ali on January 06, 2012, 10:27:41 PM
But if you go and get your car detailed, your car actually gets detailed.
I would equate selling Rapture Pet Care Services with selling someone some oceanfront property in AZ. YOU know that what you are selling is worthless and will never be delivered. Hence, scam.
You are selling piece of mind. As long as you intend to fulfill then not a scam
Quote from: Stevil on January 06, 2012, 11:41:47 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 06, 2012, 10:27:41 PM
But if you go and get your car detailed, your car actually gets detailed.
I would equate selling Rapture Pet Care Services with selling someone some oceanfront property in AZ. YOU know that what you are selling is worthless and will never be delivered. Hence, scam.
You are selling piece of mind. As long as you intend to fulfill then not a scam
But you have no intention of fulfilling because you don't believe the rapture will ever come. So in fact, you're banking on them paying you money for services that you assume you will never have to render.
Quote from: Ali on January 07, 2012, 01:10:29 AM
Quote from: Stevil on January 06, 2012, 11:41:47 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 06, 2012, 10:27:41 PM
But if you go and get your car detailed, your car actually gets detailed.
I would equate selling Rapture Pet Care Services with selling someone some oceanfront property in AZ. YOU know that what you are selling is worthless and will never be delivered. Hence, scam.
You are selling piece of mind. As long as you intend to fulfill then not a scam
But you have no intention of fulfilling because you don't believe the rapture will ever come. So in fact, you're banking on them paying you money for services that you assume you will never have to render.
Its an odds thing, like sports betting or insurance.
If you play the odds well then in the long run you are up.
If you think the odds are very low but are prepared to pay the price should you lose then it is fair game.
You know, when I was a kid I once gave my entire allowance to the church collection as it was passed around.
My parents said it was so nice, they were so proud, etc,etc.
I still feel ripped off >:(
I think I'd feel bad taking money from other people for stupid reasons, but if I could find a way to take money from churches, I definitely would.
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 06, 2012, 10:22:34 PM
I don't think that I need my car detailed, so, I don't go and get it detailed. You may prefer to have a looking car and you think you need to go get your car detailed. Now, we some some religious folks who think their pets need to be taken care of in the future. They certainly can't have that done within there own belief system because everyone will be with them. So they have to go to an outside source that will take care of their pets once they are gone. It is simply a service they feel they need. I don't see how that is ripping them off. To rip them off you would have to neglect picking up their pets when and if the rapture really does happen.
Don't let the nay sayers discourage you, you're selling peace of mind.
I hardly ever claim insurance but I still pay for it, it helps me sleep.
Just think of the reduced stress these people will experience, you'll be a positive influence on their health. You're like a doctor, better than a doctor.
And what if there really is a rapture? If you're genuinely willing to keep your end of the bargain, I don't see it as fleecing. :D
Of course I would keep up my end of the deal for several reasons. If I was wrong about the rapture I would be wrong about a lot of other things as well and they might be looking down on me prepared to bring about justice if I don't. Secondly, having all those stray dogs and cats running around would cause more problems than me going and picking them up in a timely manner. Third I made a deal so of course I would do it.
And it would be a lifetime promise. My lifetime anyway. Deals off if I die before the rapture.
Someone should write a parody contract of the terms of such an insurance. :D
Take religion out of it. Let's say that someone is so consumed with the idea that s/he is going to be abducted by aliens at any moment that they begin making all sorts of elaborate plans for it (including paying people up front for services not yet rendered - like "take care of my pets if I am abducted by aliens.") Wouldn't we consider that person mentally ill? Would it be ethical to enter into that sort of deal with someone like that? Even if it gives them piece of mind, it still feels like taking advantage.
Quote from: Ali on January 07, 2012, 03:56:20 PM
Take religion out of it. Let's say that someone is so consumed with the idea that s/he is going to be abducted by aliens at any moment that they begin making all sorts of elaborate plans for it (including paying people up front for services not yet rendered - like "take care of my pets if I am abducted by aliens.") Wouldn't we consider that person mentally ill? Would it be ethical to enter into that sort of deal with someone like that? Even if it gives them piece of mind, it still feels like taking advantage.
I have a couple of clients who come to my vet clinic that I feel this way about: they are SOO obsessed with their animals, they would literally do anything we tell them. They'd buy anything, take any kind of treatment, any kind of supplement, go to any kind of behaviour school. They are well beyond how a normal, loving pet-parent behaves. One of them tries to give me cash "tips" on a regular basis (which I, of course, turn down.) We could definitely fleece them for everything they own if we wanted to, because I'm pretty sure they'd sell their house before making their little dog go "without".
Quote from: Ali on January 07, 2012, 03:56:20 PM
Take religion out of it. Let's say that someone is so consumed with the idea that s/he is going to be abducted by aliens at any moment that they begin making all sorts of elaborate plans for it (including paying people up front for services not yet rendered - like "take care of my pets if I am abducted by aliens.") Wouldn't we consider that person mentally ill? Would it be ethical to enter into that sort of deal with someone like that? Even if it gives them piece of mind, it still feels like taking advantage.
That's a great analogy, at least as far as the rapture or services insurance discussion.
Does it also apply to the "toast with jesus" analogy too, though? Let's take religion out of that too. Suppose I have a painting that I found in my attic which I hate and don't want. So I put it on ebay, and it turns out it's very valuable to a certain niche group out there, whether it's because of the painter, the style, they think it's got some spiritual power, whatever. If they're competing with each other to buy it and will offer me thousands of dollars for said painting, is it really unethical to sell it for whatever I can get, even if I think they're nuts? In this case, I am providing them exactly what they want, which is the painting, or burnt toast.
Some would sell even their undies to pay for their pet's well-being, that's for sure.
Quote from: Firebird on January 07, 2012, 10:13:55 PM
That's a great analogy, at least as far as the rapture or services insurance discussion.
Does it also apply to the "toast with jesus" analogy too, though? Let's take religion out of that too. Suppose I have a painting that I found in my attic which I hate and don't want. So I put it on ebay, and it turns out it's very valuable to a certain niche group out there, whether it's because of the painter, the style, they think it's got some spiritual power, whatever. If they're competing with each other to buy it and will offer me thousands of dollars for said painting, is it really unethical to sell it for whatever I can get, even if I think they're nuts? In this case, I am providing them exactly what they want, which is the painting, or burnt toast.
No, as long as they are getting exactly what you advertise (painting, burnt toast, flashy bendy Jesus) then I think it's fine to take whatever price the market will bear. The only caveat I would add to the toast thing is not lying about the origins of the toast (as in "I have no idea how this toast took on the face of Jesus! It's a miracle!" when actually you have a Jesus-face toaster.) Maybe you could just refrain from mentioning how the toast came to look like Jesus unless they ask?
To scam is to defraud...swindle. Anyone who can legally scam the largest and longest lasting legal scam has my vote. And if Jesus don't like it, he can come down here and tell us so.
For me it's a case of whether the fun of capitalising on someone's stupidity offsets the chance of propagating the bullshit....
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 01:36:23 PM
For me it's a case of whether the fun of capitalising on someone's stupidity offsets the chance of propagating the bullshit....
Isn't that what churches do? ::)
Quote from: Gawen on January 08, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
To scam is to defraud...swindle. Anyone who can legally scam the largest and longest lasting legal scam has my vote. And if Jesus don't like it, he can come down here and tell us so.
Yup. It would take one hell of an effort to achieve anywhere near as big a scam as the sale of indulgences...
;D
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2012, 04:30:34 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 01:36:23 PM
For me it's a case of whether the fun of capitalising on someone's stupidity offsets the chance of propagating the bullshit....
Isn't that what churches do? ::)
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
Those who know Derren Brown will already have a sound understanding of how the victims of spiritual or religious profiteering are duped. These guys have taken the premise of this thread to the extreme. But it's not just the gullible, it's the weak, the sick and the poor. These are surely among the worst parasites that exist.
Quote from: Ali on January 08, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
I really wonder about this too. Sometimes I really think that those on the top of the chain really believe what they preach.
Quote from: Ali on January 08, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
Interesting thought. I read a couple book by Ehrman (Bart, I think) who is now an atheist but at one time was quite a devoted follower. He worked his way up through middle management of the church while in his younger years and decided to go off to seminary. He states in his book that he though he would get more training in the devotional aspect of religion while at seminary. You know Bible stories, doctrine etc... Instead, he said he was surprised to find out that at seminary they focus mostly on the historical aspects of the Bible and why they don't match history. It was very eye opening to him. It wasn't what ultimately made him decide to be an Atheist but it would be hard to be a devoted follower in your holy book was shot to shred by the very institution that was supposed to train you the most.
Quote from: lomfs24 on January 08, 2012, 10:53:26 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 08, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
Interesting thought. I read a couple book by Ehrman (Bart, I think) who is now an atheist but at one time was quite a devoted follower. He worked his way up through middle management of the church while in his younger years and decided to go off to seminary. He states in his book that he though he would get more training in the devotional aspect of religion while at seminary. You know Bible stories, doctrine etc... Instead, he said he was surprised to find out that at seminary they focus mostly on the historical aspects of the Bible and why they don't match history. It was very eye opening to him. It wasn't what ultimately made him decide to be an Atheist but it would be hard to be a devoted follower in your holy book was shot to shred by the very institution that was supposed to train you the most.
Not only that but he mentions that even the Gospels don't match up to eachother. You can't have a literal interpretation of the entire bible and that's what sealed the deal for him.
Quote from: Ali on January 08, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
I hear ya. I'd say it's even more of an issue in the political sphere. Let's face it, in the USA there is a hard core of religious nutters who will vote for the candidate that says "Jesus" the most times. Couple that with religion being probably the most potent social control tool there is and there you go.... :-\
Quote from: squidfetish on January 09, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 08, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on January 08, 2012, 04:39:58 PM
Yes indeed, but churches aren't generally run by atheists. :)
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
I hear ya. I'd say it's even more of an issue in the political sphere. Let's face it, in the USA there is a hard core of religious nutters who will vote for the candidate that says "Jesus" the most times. Couple that with religion being probably the most potent social control tool there is and there you go.... :-\
Between feudal lords and feudal churches, the latter is certainly the fittest of the two (in darwinian terms.)
Quote from: squidfetish on January 09, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
I've actually thought about this a lot. I have to wonder if some of the people at the top of churches (you know, the ones that stand to make millions of dollars like Joel Olstien and the like) really truly believe what they're preaching, or if they're just deeply cynical and greedy and don't mind "talking the talk" if it will make them rich.
I hear ya. I'd say it's even more of an issue in the political sphere. Let's face it, in the USA there is a hard core of religious nutters who will vote for the candidate that says "Jesus" the most times. Couple that with religion being probably the most potent social control tool there is and there you go.... :-\
[/quote]
Absolutely. It's kind of sickening to see a bunch of candidates out there trying to out-Jesus each other just to appeal to a certain base of voters.