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General => Politics => Topic started by: Ali on February 02, 2012, 02:52:47 AM

Title: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Ali on February 02, 2012, 02:52:47 AM
http://ncse.com/news/2012/01/indiana-creationism-bill-passes-senate-007182 (http://ncse.com/news/2012/01/indiana-creationism-bill-passes-senate-007182)

QuoteOn January 31, 2012, the Indiana Senate voted 28-22 in favor of Senate Bill 89. As originally submitted, SB 89 provided, "The governing body of a school corporation may require the teaching of various theories concerning the origin of life, including creation science, within the school corporation." On January 30, 2012, however, it was amended in the Senate to provide instead, "The governing body of a school corporation may offer instruction on various theories of the origin of life. The curriculum for the course must include theories from multiple religions, which may include, but is not limited to, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Scientology."

The Senate spent less than twenty minutes considering the bill, with its sponsor Dennis Kruse (R-District 14) defending it. Kruse acknowledged that the bill would be constitutionally problematic but, he told the education blogger at the Indianapolis Star (January 31, 2012), "This is a different Supreme Court," adding, "This Supreme Court could rule differently." The American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana's legal director Ken Falk was previously quoted in a story from the Associated Press (January 26, 2012) as saying that the bill is clearly unconstitutional and invites lawsuits: moreover, he added, "when lawmakers propose legislation they clearly know will end up in the courts, it wastes time and resources."

Speaking against the bill in the Senate were Tim Skinner (D-District 38), who expressed concern not only about the bill's constitutionality but also about the lack of guidance it provides for local school teachers and districts and the logistics of defending them against lawsuits, and Karen Tallian (D-District 4), who was impassioned in her opposition against the bill: the Times of Munster (January 31, 2012) quoted her as saying, "In my mind, this violates everything we stand for as Americans ... The very fact that we're talking about this makes me heartsick." Tallian also mentioned the 2005 case Kitzmiller v. Dover, arguing that the bill invites local districts in Indiana to follow disastrously in the steps of the Dover Area School Board.

Skinner's and Tallian's arguments echoed the concerns of John Staver of Purdue University, who previously testified against the bill in committee. He told the Purdue Exponent (January 31, 2012), "If this does become law, they are going to face legal problems and, given the legal precedents, it is very likely to lose ... And then they're going to have bills to pay and schools are struggling enough with bills to pay without this happening." NCSE's Eric Meikle added, "I have trouble understanding why people think it's necessary ... If they want classes on philosophy or comparative religion, they can do that. There's nothing that stops classes about religion, just don't promote religion."

The bill now proceeds to the Indiana House of Representatives, where its sponsors are Jeff Thompson (R-District 28) and Eric Turner (R-District 32), who is also the house speaker pro tem. Thompson, interestingly, is also a cosponsor, along with Cindy Noe (R-District 87), of House Bill 1140, which would require teachers to discuss "commonly held competing views" on topics "that cannot be verified by scientific empirical evidence." While evolution is not mentioned in the bill, Noe cohosted a controversial dinner at the Creation Evidence Expo in Indianapolis in 2009, according to the Fort Wayne Reader (August 23, 2010). In any case, HB 1140 seems to have died in committee.

What should we do about this?
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 03:51:36 AM

Quote4. The U.S. is failing at science and math education (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9179008/Five_reasons_why_China_will_rule_tech)

A stark assessment of the U.S. failure in science and math education was made by U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Texas) at a Senate hearing in May, when she compared the performance of students in Texas to those in China.

"In my home state of Texas, only 41% of the high school graduates are ready for college-level math (algebra), and only 24% are ready for college-level science (biology)," said Hutchinson.

I'm not sure what you do about that, anything and everything I suppose.
Ridicule them for their stupidity.
Use fear of the godless communist to make them get their act together.
Appeal to nationalistic pride.
Reason with those you can.

Is this clinging to the stupid sustainable?
Will these people tire of being the laughing stock of the world and change or harden their defensive shell?
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Tank on February 02, 2012, 09:12:05 AM
As long as 'Mercan's are smart enough to make atomic bombs the world will never be safe. America looks more like a Christian version of Saudi Arabia every day.  :'(
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Buddy on February 02, 2012, 01:23:51 PM
That's it. I'm finding a box and shipping myself back to Sweden.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 03:51:36 AM

Is this clinging to the stupid sustainable?
Will these people tire of being the laughing stock of the world and change or harden their defensive shell?

The thing is though, when most Americans are told that they are the laughing stock of the world, the adopt the "Lalalala I can't hear you" mentality. I can't  say how many times I've been called a "backwards Eurotrash." It really is quite depressing.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 02, 2012, 01:23:51 PMI can't  say how many times I've been called a "backwards Eurotrash." It really is quite depressing.

Ye that would annoy me in your place.
Too forward Eurotrash, it's something I could accept or shrug off.
Bumpkins calling you backwards, a sad thing.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Buddy on February 02, 2012, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 02, 2012, 01:23:51 PMI can't  say how many times I've been called a "backwards Eurotrash." It really is quite depressing.

Ye that would annoy me in your place.
Too forward Eurotrash, it's something I could accept or shrug off.
Bumpkins calling you backwards, a sad thing.

The kicker is that the one who was calling me that brags about being inbred.  ::)
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 02, 2012, 02:14:46 PM
The kicker is that the one who was calling me that brags about being inbred.  ::)

How's that work?

You don't even know who your fathers is!
Oh yes I do, it's uncle Dave!!
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: joeactor on February 02, 2012, 03:16:58 PM
Yeeech... disgusting story.  I can only hope that it doesn't pass and have to go through another taxpayer funded waste of time, money, etc...


...


I'd consider moving if it weren't for all the discos, mentos and tiny cars that have taken over Europe.
(I keed, I keed... but just a little)
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 03:44:24 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 09:12:05 AMAmerica looks more like a Christian version of Saudi Arabia every day.  :'(

Is it that or is it that what it has long been is unacceptable in the now?
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Tank on February 02, 2012, 03:44:50 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 02, 2012, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 02, 2012, 01:23:51 PMI can't  say how many times I've been called a "backwards Eurotrash." It really is quite depressing.

Ye that would annoy me in your place.
Too forward Eurotrash, it's something I could accept or shrug off.
Bumpkins calling you backwards, a sad thing.

The kicker is that the one who was calling me that brags about being inbred.  ::)
Why does that not surprise me!
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Tank on February 02, 2012, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 02, 2012, 03:44:24 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 09:12:05 AMAmerica looks more like a Christian version of Saudi Arabia every day.  :'(

Is it that or is it that what it has long been is unacceptable in the now?
There is part of that in the mix as well. The zeitgeist evolves and some views that were main stream become anachronistic.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Buddy on February 02, 2012, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 03:44:50 PM
Why does that not surprise me!

Because it's Indiana and it's predictable?
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Tank on February 02, 2012, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 02, 2012, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 03:44:50 PM
Why does that not surprise me!

Because it's Indiana and it's predictable?
It's an example of brash stupidity. That can happen anywhere.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Davin on February 02, 2012, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 02, 2012, 02:52:47 AMWhat should we do about this?
Well, it says "theories", which for creationism, there aren't any. Theories are specific things, and while the colloquial definition may get all bastardized, this is a legal document. So, if they try to teach a myth as a theory, then you can still take them to task for it.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Twentythree on February 02, 2012, 04:28:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 04:02:04 PM

It's an example of brash stupidity. That can happen anywhere.

The crazy thing is that I don't believe that moves like this are stupid moves. I think that often these types of plays are called by very intelligent people in leadership roles that see education as a threat to their power structure. Also this could not happen anywhere, if a bill like this were proposed in California or Massachusetts it would have been dismissed before the ink was even dry. But the individuals who make moves like this know that they are in an environment where bill like this have legs with the fundamentalist populations. I also think that they know that they are fighting a losing battle but delaying the decay of their power structure rooted in fundamentalist Christianity they get an opportunity to let the religious ideas and teachings "evolve" to accommodate advancements in scientific knowledge without the whole hodgepodge thing unraveling. Don't get me wrong from my perspective I find it very stupid and a retardation of intellectual progress. But for those in positions of power and/or wealth in susceptible environments it makes perfect sense. I have a hunch that each parry made to evolution is just a struggle to retain the overarching control that the Christian right has over middle America.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: Ali on February 02, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
Quote from: Twentythree on February 02, 2012, 04:28:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 04:02:04 PM

It's an example of brash stupidity. That can happen anywhere.

The crazy thing is that I don't believe that moves like this are stupid moves. I think that often these types of plays are called by very intelligent people in leadership roles that see education as a threat to their power structure. Also this could not happen anywhere, if a bill like this were proposed in California or Massachusetts it would have been dismissed before the ink was even dry. But the individuals who make moves like this know that they are in an environment where bill like this have legs with the fundamentalist populations. I also think that they know that they are fighting a losing battle but delaying the decay of their power structure rooted in fundamentalist Christianity they get an opportunity to let the religious ideas and teachings "evolve" to accommodate advancements in scientific knowledge without the whole hodgepodge thing unraveling. Don't get me wrong from my perspective I find it very stupid and a retardation of intellectual progress. But for those in positions of power and/or wealth in susceptible environments it makes perfect sense. I have a hunch that each parry made to evolution is just a struggle to retain the overarching control that the Christian right has over middle America.

I completely agree with this.  The church has such a strong hold on people, weilding it's power means weilding control over a big section of the American population.  They will hold onto that power for as long as they can swing it.
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: m.condon on February 03, 2012, 04:57:08 PM
The ACLU has already stated that if a lawsuit is brought up as a result of this bill, and you can be assured there will be, they are more than ready to take up the lawsuit but until then they won't do anything about it.
I tried emailing the house reps but all I got was automatic responses, I did get a list of their office numbers and will prob use that next time i wanna urge them to vote against a bill.
I've noticed a bunch of states passing similar legislation, such as South Dakota and New Hampshire. It ridiculous b/c they know they are going to cause needless lawsuits. Theres just not much we can do except speak out to our current senators and such....
Title: Re: Indiana creationism bill passes the Senate
Post by: history_geek on February 05, 2012, 04:06:25 AM
Quote from: Davin on February 02, 2012, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 02, 2012, 02:52:47 AMWhat should we do about this?
Well, it says "theories", which for creationism, there aren't any. Theories are specific things, and while the colloquial definition may get all bastardized, this is a legal document. So, if they try to teach a myth as a theory, then you can still take them to task for it.

Well, here's the problem. If you google "scientific theory" and go to Wikipedia, you will find this:

QuoteA scientific theory is a set of principles that explain and predict phenomena.[1] Scientists create scientific theories with the scientific method, when they are originally proposed as hypotheses and tested for accuracy through observations and experiments.[2] Once a hypothesis is verified, it becomes a theory.[3]

The term "theory" is a polyseme, even among scientists. While most scientists reserve the term for verifiable principles, others use it to refer to hypothetical frameworks.[4] Colloquially, it is often used to refer to a guess. In the humanities, the concept is called a philosophical theory and is intended to explain noumena. Philosophical theories can refer to a set of principles or a set of propositions.

But Cretards only see, or acknowledge, this:

QuoteThe term "theory" is....often used to refer to a guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

At least to me this blatant dishonesty and intellectual laziness of the people who want "facts" that fit their "knowledge" (read: faith) spoon fed to them, with as little effort as possible on their part, has always been and will always be the problem... :-\

Other then that, fingers crossed for ACLU...