Happy Atheist Forum

Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: bandit4god on November 30, 2010, 10:50:23 PM

Title: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on November 30, 2010, 10:50:23 PM
Honest theist question: what is life's goal for an atheist?  Stated differently, what is happiness?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: elliebean on November 30, 2010, 11:32:29 PM
Those are two very different questions.

In any case, I suspect no two atheists will give exactly the same answer to either question, since we generally try to find our own goals and our own definitions of happiness, without trying to conform to some pooly translated, badly interpreted, ancient script or someone else's religious dogma or prescribed philosophy.

Me, my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day; happiness is doing that...


Or giving it a good try and learning something in the process...






Or having something totally unexpected, but equally or more enjoyable happen instead...






AND

Seeing others being happy too, or at least getting happier.

 :)
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on November 30, 2010, 11:42:16 PM
Thanks, Ellie, appreciate the post! Could I sum up your answer as the following?
- It's different for every atheist
- For you, it's doing whatever you want on a given day, learning something, unexpected pleasures, and/or seeing others being/getting happy

How does being an atheist add to your happiness?  If someone said they were not an atheist, could they still find happiness in the above?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: elliebean on December 01, 2010, 12:12:14 AM
I don't see why not.

My atheism seems to have very little bearing on my ability to be happy; it's just one of many facts about me. Not even a particularly important or interesting one.

Finding happiness is not something I put a lot of thought into. Nor do I tend to make any long-term goals, unless it concerns my health. My diminished capacity for forming and recalling new memories demands that I keep it simple.

The problem of avoiding unhappiness, though... that there is a whole different discussion.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Will on December 01, 2010, 12:54:17 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Honest theist question: what is life's goal for an atheist?  Stated differently, what is happiness?
My life's goals are to be a good husband and father, to understand the world around me, to learn to express myself through art, to help other people when they are in need, and to leave the world a better than than I've found it (which I suppose leads back to being a good father in a way). These are only my goals, though. Other atheists have other goals or no goals at all. We are free to choose.
Quote from: "bandit4god"How does being an atheist add to your happiness?
Being an atheist doesn't necessarily add to happiness, but rather prevents certain kinds of sadness. When I was religious, I feared doubt, curiosity, and skepticism. While I didn't realize it at the time, I was sad and less fulfilled because I believed in god. Exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy and feels in tune with who I am at my core. I'm a curious fellow, as it were. Atheism more explains what I'm not than what I am, though.
Quote from: "bandit4god"If someone said they were not an atheist, could they still find happiness in the above?
They could, sure. It might be a bit more complicated, though, because theists generally have external rules and goals to adhere to, things which, by choice or not, make them slightly less free. I would hope that they can find fulfillment within the confines of the rules and goals supplied by their religion or faith, but based on my experience there are times when there can arise conflict.

An example would be a healthy romantic and sexual relationship. Part of being happy, for me, is having a healthy relationship with someone I love. I've never been married, though, and according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness in that way. Had I been religious at the time, I would have had to choose between the rules of the creator and dictator of the universe, that come with significant punishment in the form of eternal torture, or exploring and experiencing love to it's fullest.

Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Three_Brane on December 01, 2010, 02:25:32 AM
I have frequently been asked variations of this question by my religious friends. Religious people often make the assumption that life without god is meaningless. From my perspective, it is certainly true that life has no objective purpose. But I do not find that problematic. In fact, that is, in my opinion, one of the most wonderful things about living a godless life. Rather than having your life directed by the edicts of the authors of the Bible and the modern day interpreters of their words, you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires.

Atheists create their own goals. For an atheist, the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be. Of course, this will vary from person to person, but that is fine. People should do whatever makes them happy, just so long as they do not hurt anyone else.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 01, 2010, 02:55:35 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Honest theist question: what is life's goal for an atheist?  Stated differently, what is happiness?

For most theists their views of God affect their life goals and what makes them happy because their religions contain dogma and rituals witch guide and often dictate what they ought to choose as a goal and what they ought to enjoy.  However, most atheists do not have a religion (I say most since original Buddhism is atheistic) so their being an atheist does not in any way affect what they might choose as a goal or what they may find joy in.  This is why you won't get similar answers from a group of atheists; or at least not similar due to their being atheist (possibly similar due to us all being human; I would expect theists to answer similarly if they were asked to answer without using religious answers)

Personally, I don't have much of a life goal and tend to be more focused on short term goals with the bigger life goal as a guiding idea rather than an end goal.  So with that in mind I'd say my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it.

Happiness, I would say, is a state of being in a place emotionally where you are not with want to live a different life because you are able to enjoy what you have even if there is room for growth/improvement.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 01, 2010, 06:45:01 PM
Awesome, thanks all for the replies!  I'm intrigued by the thematic consistency in the above as evidenced by the following quotes:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

While it's true the above quotes came from only four respondents, it's striking to note the similarity.  Look forward to hearing some more responses!
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: McQ on December 01, 2010, 08:18:17 PM
I agree with Ellie that those are two different questions. In fact, I am not sure I understand the first question, "what is life's goal for an atheist?"
Do you mean to ask what is an atheist's goal for living? Or are you asking what life's goal is - aka what is life's purpose?

If you are asking what an atheist's goal is for life or living, I would have to say it will be different for every person, atheist or not. Not even people of the same religion will have exactly the same goals for living. So it is a very individual thing and can't be generalized to a group.

To go along with that is the fact that there is nothing common about atheists other than a single shared lack of belief in deities. Other than that, they are as different as everyone else.

My goals have changed over the course of my life. Now, I try to better the human condition, be a loving father, husband and friend.

Second question, "Stated differently, what is happiness?"

So broad, it's hard to answer. I'll leave that to the philosophers.

Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Asmodean on December 01, 2010, 08:44:45 PM
My goal is to do as many things I want to do and to experience as much as I can before the curtains-down.

Happiness...  :hmm:  Well, I get my fix by succeeding at challenging tasks or hanging with my friends without any particular reason or purpose... I don't really need the prospect of a brighter future to be happy.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Velma on December 02, 2010, 12:48:48 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Honest theist question: what is life's goal for an atheist?  Stated differently, what is happiness?
I don't think the two questions are the same at all - and I'm not quite sure what you are wanting to know.  Are you asking what makes an atheist get out of bed every morning?  Are you wanting to know what makes an atheist's life happy?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 02, 2010, 10:54:01 AM
Atheism conditions the answer to the OP only negatively, in that the answer isn't conditioned by theism.  The same is true for amorality, in that the answer isn't conditioned by morality.  Atheism and amorality can intersect but don't have to.

Life in general has the goal of momentary satisfaction with the current level of fulfillment of all particular goals.  That momentary satisfaction is happiness.  Particular goals can only be identified by querying a particular life.

Theism is the condition of being subject to the illusion of a universal being or the illusion of some non-existent attribute universal to all beings.  Morality is the illusion of universal goals, which may or may not be be grounded in theism.  The interesection of atheism and amorality is freedom from any illusions regarding a universal being, a non-existent attribute universal to all beings, or universal goals.

The amoral creature pursues no universal goals, but only those particular goals it finds active in its own particular life.  All non-human creatures are amoral, and some humans are.  An amoral creature is dangerous to other creatures to the extent its particular goals are dangerous to other creatures. A moral creature as such is dangerous to other creatures to the extent its illusory universal goals are dangerous to other creatures, which seems only to occur when morality is grounded in theism.  Atheistic moralities seem always to glorify either benevolence or fairness, or, usually, both, and while these theoretically could turn dangerous toward anyone the atheist perceived as malevolent or unfair; I.e., the pursuit of vengeance could ensue; this tends to be rare, because, for whatever reason, atheists tend to be non-violent unless directly provoked in a physical manner.  It is certainly possible to be both atheistic and sociopathic, it is merely rare, primarily because sociopathy is rare.  It is equally possible to be both sociopathic and theistic, the presumed requirement being that one's illusory universal entity or illusory universal attribute doesn't demand benevolence and fairness, or, at least, that one doesn't care if it does.

Sociopaths tend to be amoral, but the reverse isn't true, partly because amoral humans can and often do develop empathy, and partly because amoral humans can and often do develop sufficient caution to make them hesitate regarding antisocial behaviors for fear of consequences.  The sociopath lacks both the requisite empathy and the requisite caution that would preclude antisocial behavior.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 02, 2010, 04:51:09 PM
I suppose it's possible for an atheist to be ok with the idea of this world being all there is, and to be happy. Obvious however that requires acceptance, which is fine. On the other hand, if that acceptance is lacking, the atheist would of course be less able to be happy. For theists that isn't an issue.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 02, 2010, 05:45:55 PM
Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.  Given the above, perhaps you'd indulge me one more question.

It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 02, 2010, 07:45:36 PM
All humans (all living things), regardless of their views of god have a desire to do whatever they want.  Even when we choose to subject ourselves to control we are still doing whatever we want because we would always have the option to be disobedient (barring we aren't restrained and drugged).

My being an atheist has very little bearing on my life other than that I would like to be able to not be a theist and that be accepted by the majority of society (which seems to be happening within my life time).  

I'm not emotionally tied to there not being a god;  I just think it is more likely that the idea of a god is purely a man made concept than it is possible that some sort of creator exists.

Anyway, you seem to be taking what we say and trying to shoe horn it into an idea.  For instance, most of us didn't say we should do whatever we want, many of us also threw in some ethics/greater good etc.  Also, I don't think many if any of us claimed to have a positive negative belief towards god (which is philosophically different from lacking belief).  Are you hoping to prove some sort of point?  If so it would be a lot faster to just say what you think and why then let people respond to your ideas as a whole.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: McQ on December 02, 2010, 10:23:22 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.  Given the above, perhaps you'd indulge me one more question.

It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

Ditto to what Whitney said. I think you've misread or misinterpreted the answers. I hope not to suit a preconception you might have. Can't move forward until that is cleared up.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Asmodean on December 02, 2010, 10:41:02 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?
It's not exactly like that...

I have a desire to do what I want and, at the same time and largely unrelated to it, I do not believe in gods. It's not that one of those thing comes first, since I, for one, manage to combine whating to do (or doing) something with being something. Kind of like walking while wearing a hat. One does not need to come before the other.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 02, 2010, 11:45:51 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.

Where, exactly?

QuoteMy question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?

There's no causal link.  There isn't even meaningful correlation.  Everone, without exception, theist or not, desires to do whatever they want.  Meanwhile, no one sane and competent, theist or not, thinks they absolutely can, and get away scot free.  Consequences abound right here on the Earth.  No hell required.  Furthermore, all sorts of people, theist and otherwise, have achieved the capacity for empathy, which causes them to restrain themselves out of deference to the happiness of another.  Finally, plenty of people, theist or not, envision an ideal future and aspire to see it realized, which can drive a degree of restraint on behavior, consistent with the stipulations of the particular future contemplated.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: The Magic Pudding on December 03, 2010, 12:12:56 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

I think the recognition that their is no basis for belief in a creator comes first.
The evidence presented for god is just a never ending circle of nonsense.
The history and hypocrisy of religious institutions showed me they weren't worthy to tell me what to do.
I do some things I want to do, and many I don't.  None of these things, besides lack of faith put me outside church guidelines.
But I don't think it is right to vilify gays, oppress woman and encourage rampant population growth.
I suppose I don't really fit those guidelines after all.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Davin on December 03, 2010, 02:32:12 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Great stuff, sounds like we are getting somewhere.  Given the above, perhaps you'd indulge me one more question.

It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?
My main pursuit, "goal in life" if you will, is to understand reality. In order to ensure that I'm reaching that goal (set aside that it's impossible), I drop preconceptions and follow the evidence.

Happiness is something that occurs independent of my goal to understand reality. If I made my happiness dependent on a preconception, then I'll have only a few choices if that preconception turns out to not follow the evidence: I can ignore the evidence in order to maintain my happiness, I can accept the evidence and find some other way to be happy or I can give up on life altogether. I'm sure there are other options available, however I don't see the point in basing happiness on things that have not proven to be real. Also being that happiness is often independent of rationality, basing my happiness on unproven or even proven things doesn't make much sense. There are other ways to be happy.

My pursuit of happiness also occurs after I'm sure that my pursuit of it doesn't reasonably damage others.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 03, 2010, 06:06:58 PM
Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Ihateyoumike on December 03, 2010, 06:17:54 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?

thanks for the chuckle. You're pretty good at quote mining to get your point across.
That being said, I'm looking forward to this getting torn apart. I'd do itmyself bit I'm just too damn sick the screen is getting blurry. It's a good thing your god decided to give us viruses. Wonder what the good behind that one is?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 03, 2010, 06:43:47 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  

That's funny for multiple reasons, two that should be obvious:

1.  The only thing atheist hold in common is that they don't believe in a deity (ie god).
2.  What makes one happy and what they may choose as a life does not necessarily correlate to determining what they consider to be "Ultimate Fact."  Goals and happiness are subjective; facts are objective.

Quote from: "bandit4god"This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."

Of course it doesn't point to "it's all about me" many people responded specifically saying they cared about making life enjoyable for others too. I bet if you asked the parents here they'd say they are concerned for their kids happiness first. We aren't sociopaths...

QuoteIf someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

When you actually make an argument that holds any water we can discuss how we aren't listening to it or getting angry for no reason...at this point you are shoehorning what people have said into something that it doesn't fit; misrepresenting people in a manner that seems to be on purpose will upset anyone regardless of their beliefs.

QuoteSome of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?
:shake:
Actually, I contended that all living things do what they want to do but that humans are able to choose to perform actions for the sake of others, a cause, a belief etc and in doing so are still doing what they want to do.

Now, if you still think atheists; who share no common ground aside from non-belief in a deity and of many of which have said they incorporate others into their life goals and happiness are in fact holding an "it's all about me" attitude then you need to explain your view in a rational, logical, step by step manner because right now it doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 03, 2010, 06:58:13 PM
Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 03, 2010, 07:36:44 PM
I had the following hypotheses when I started this conversation, apologies that they have come across as unclear:
1)  Whether they acknowledge it or not, every individual has one or more foundational beliefs that acts as the invisible hand behind every thought and action
2)  This foundational belief could have an impact on one's assessment of the existence of God
3)  Atheists (and Theists) may have common elements between their foundational beliefs that may influence them to one opinion or another
4)  Beliefs about happiness give clues toward understanding one's foundational belief(s)

I'm hearing from you that three possibilities exists:
1)  Each person has a different thought on what drives happiness, and that thought is in no way correlative to beliefs about the existence of God (Whitney)
2)  Each person belongs to a class of beliefs about happiness (e.g., the "all about me" class, the "all about my kids" class, etc.) that is in no way correlative to beliefs about the existence of God
3)  Each person belongs to a class of beliefs about happiness that is correlative to beliefs about the existence of God

The rationale behind the 3rd is the following: if, for example, one was of a class of beliefs about happiness in which physical pleasure is paramount, that person could be considered less likely to believe in the existence of God.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 03, 2010, 08:01:24 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.

The only Ultimate Fact is factuality itself.  Epistemology and ethics can inform one another but don't equate to one another.  Between what must be true and what must be done yawns a chasm, across which hangs suspended the bridge of desire.

QuoteThis may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."

Desire can be grounded strictly in self, and often is, but doesn't have to be, and often isn't.  Interestingly, pronouns offer an orderly way of categorizing desires.  There are (1) me-centered desires; (2) he/she/they-centered desires, for example philanthropic ones; (3) we-centered desires, which would be institutional, for example patriotic ones; (4) you-centered desires, which would be deeply relational, sometimes with both sides equal in power, sometimes not.  Each category further sub-divides into two, since desires can be for the good or ill of whatever is being focused on, be it me, or he/she/they, or we, or you.  

In raising up sapients to be citizens, society would probably want to provide training and opportunities for practice at a young age in how to think from each of the four pronoun paradigms; and how to identify what's good and what's ill for whatever is being focused on; and how to find gratification in providing what's good, while retaining the option of providing what's ill should the situation warrant it - and how to identify when such is the case, which typically entails weighing the good of one pronoun paradigm against the conflicting good of another, such that one or the other must be denied its respective good.  We humans quickly and easily learn to find gratification in providing the good, not only to self but to the other three pronoun paradigms, if we're given half a chance through training and opportunities for practice.  The will to power can be profoundly satisfied by providing the good.  No one is mightier than the heroically effective philanthropist, or patriot, or sibling, or self-actualizer.  Why would society set such as all this in motion?  Because if each us locally receives the good, then all of us globally will be elevated in bounty.  It's common sense.  If all of us do as much good as we can, then all of us receive as much good as can be had.

Notice how I never had to invoke either God or morality.  Frankly, those concepts are obsolete.  All we need is common sense.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: McQ on December 03, 2010, 08:35:30 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?



......aaaaaaaaand.....he charges forward, simply doing the old quote mining, completely ignoring the relevant points I and others tried to make.

Time for me to stop wasting time with this thread. Please feel free to bang your heads on the nearest object.
 :pop:
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 03, 2010, 09:05:32 PM
Quote from: "hackenslash"Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.

What makes you happy?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 03, 2010, 09:50:51 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"I had the following hypotheses when I started this conversation, apologies that they have come across as unclear:
1)  Whether they acknowledge it or not, every individual has one or more foundational beliefs that acts as the invisible hand behind every thought and action

OK.  What you're calling foundational beliefs, I'll call, epistemological assumptions, by which I mean, "assumptions as to what constitutes knowledge and what justifies belief."

Quote2)  This foundational belief could have an impact on one's assessment of the existence of God

Certainly true in my case.  Here are some of my epistemological assumptions:

1. Belief is justified when the probability of accuracy is high, and unjustified otherwise.  
2. The probability of accuracy is high if logical empiricism or, in some cases, logic alone, demands it.
3. Logical empiricism cannot demand the accuracy of a proposition about non-empirical reality.
4. Logic alone cannot demand the accuracy of a proposition about a source of empirical causality.

Meanwhile, God is most often presented as both non-empirical and a source of empirical causality.  If he's non-empirical, then logical empiricism cannot demand the high probable accuracy of the proposition of his existence.  If he's a source of empirical causality, logic alone cannot demand the high probable accuracy of the proposition of his existence.  Nothing else remains that could demand the high probable accuracy of the proposition.  Belief in the proposition is unjustified.  
 
Perhaps the above gives the impression that I'm debating.  I'm not.  I'm describing the contents of my mind.  The above is how my mind works.    

Here are more of my epistemological assumptions:

5. Desire that a proposition be accurate or inaccurate has no bearing on which it is.
6. Comfort or discomfort derived from a proposition has no bearing on its accuracy.
7. A proposition's fortunate or unfortunate ramifications have no bearing on its accuracy.
8. My commitment (or lack thereof) to living as if a proposition were accurate has no bearing on whether it is.

Quote3)  Atheists (and Theists) may have common elements between their foundational beliefs that may influence them to one opinion or another

See above with respect to myself.  How many of the above do you share?

Quote4)  Beliefs about happiness give clues toward understanding one's foundational belief(s)

Not in my case.  I keep belief and desire walled off from one another, on principle.  Desire and its fulfillment are the essence of happiness.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 04, 2010, 12:36:07 AM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"
Quote from: "hackenslash"Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.

What makes you happy?

Life, love, learning, music, literature, good food, drink, drugs...

All manner of things really. If I were pressed to sum up in one word what makes me happy, it is this: Experience.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 04, 2010, 01:41:18 AM
Quote from: "hackenslash"For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness

This is the 2nd or 3rd time a version of this quote has come up.  If that's true, why do you come on this forum?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 04, 2010, 01:57:21 AM
Because learning is a major part of what makes me happy, and in places like this, I learn much, and I also like to think that I impart some learning on others.

Simple, really.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 04, 2010, 02:28:15 AM
If that's the case, then it seems atheism has a material impact on your happiness.  Your atheistic views have brought you here, where you are able to do so much learning and impart learning on me and others!
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Cite134 on December 04, 2010, 02:38:39 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Honest theist question: what is life's goal for an atheist?  Stated differently, what is happiness?


I'm not sure what my goal is to do in life tbh. I'm still trying to figure that out.
Hapiness is what you make it.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Cite134 on December 04, 2010, 02:40:23 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"
Quote from: "hackenslash"For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness

This is the 2nd or 3rd time a version of this quote has come up.  If that's true, why do you come on this forum?

For me...because it's something to do?
Perhaps for intellectual stimulation, idk. Although, it has no bearing on my overall happiness.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Meghatron on December 04, 2010, 03:49:50 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Thanks, all!  This thread about Atheism and happiness is designed to gain some insight into what atheist hold to be their Ultimate Fact.  Let's take a second look at some of the quotes that have come before:
- "...my goal is whatever I want to do on a given day..."
- "...exploring and satiating my curiosity makes me very happy..."
- "...according to some theistic faiths I have lived in sin in my pursuit of happiness..."
- "...you are free to live your life in accordance with your own desires..."
- "...Atheists create their own goals..."
- "...people should do whatever makes them happy..."
- "...the meaning of life is whatever they choose it to be..."
- "...my life goal is to enjoy life and try to make life better for others while I'm at it..."

This may (or may not) point to the Atheist's Ultimate Fact as being "it's all about me."  If someone held the Ultimate Fact of their lives to be "it's all about me", any argument, debate, evidence, or theories to the contrary would simply bounce off (or incite anger, as this post may do!).

Some of you have contended that every living thing does whatever it wants to do.  Is it not possible for humans (alone of any other living thing) to deny themselves and hold an Ultimate Fact of "it's not all about me"?

For me being an Atheist has very little correlation with me being happy. If I pretended that I believed in God (like I did 8 years ago) my inner voice would still scream “there is no God...punch yourself in the face dumb ass” all day. Living like that made me very unhappy. Does that make me selfish? I’m just being real with myself. If I wanted play in make believe land like you folk do...well I would have gotten into LARP.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 04, 2010, 04:03:51 AM
Yikes... I'm getting a lot of responses that atheism has nothing to do with your happiness.  It's a big internet, gang, why not join a forum that's more aligned with topics that will impact your happiness?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Meghatron on December 04, 2010, 05:24:33 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Yikes... I'm getting a lot of responses that atheism has nothing to do with your happiness.  It's a big internet, gang, why not join a forum that's more aligned with topics that will impact your happiness?


Nonbelievers make you happy and that's why you are a member of this forum. Awww THANK YOU!!! That is so flattering.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: The Magic Pudding on December 04, 2010, 08:09:44 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Yikes... I'm getting a lot of responses that atheism has nothing to do with your happiness.  It's a big internet, gang, why not join a forum that's more aligned with topics that will impact your happiness?

I usually get my happiness at the farmers market, the stuff at the supermarket isn't really fresh, even if they say it is, and the frozen stuff is only for emergencies.  Some people swear buy the canned stuff but once you open the can it has to be used quickly.
Stick with the fresh stuff I say.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 04, 2010, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Yikes... I'm getting a lot of responses that atheism has nothing to do with your happiness.  It's a big internet, gang, why not join a forum that's more aligned with topics that will impact your happiness?

Was the title of this thread inspired by the name of this message board?  Happy Atheist Forum?

First, it's possible to have two attributes simultaneously without either of them being causal to one another.  I'm male and I'm Italian.  If I wanted to, I could join a message board where Italian males congregated, if one existed.  Doing so wouldn't imply that being male made me Italian, or that being Italian made me male.

Second, we who post at this message board presumably do so because we enjoy it.  I certainly do.  Thus posting here adds to my happiness.  What this implies is, talking about atheism adds to my happiness.  Being atheist and talking about it are two related but separate things.  Ask me if I talk about atheism because it adds to my happiness, and I answer yes.  Ask me if I am atheist because being atheist adds to my happiness, and I answer no.  I am atheist because I'm not theist, and I'm not theist because theism is contrary to my epistemology.

Third, if the question about atheism and happiness were phrased differently, so as to get the causality right, I would answer a qualified yes to it.  Ask me if my happiness or its pre-requisites are causal to my atheism, and I answer no.  Ask me instead if my atheism or its pre-requisites are causal to my happiness, and I answer that atheism as such isn't, but its pre-requisites are.  Atheism's pre-requisites are my epistemological assumptions, and my epistemological assumptions cause me only to believe what has a high probability of accuracy, which causes my behaviors to be grounded in accurate premises, which causes me to generally fulfill my intent, which makes me happy.  

Thus neither my atheism nor my happiness are causal to one another, but a third thing is causal to both, and that third thing is my epistemology.
     
Fourth, theism, if I tried to indulge in it, would cause me great mental distress, because the cognitive dissonance would be loud and continual.  Theism and my epistemology cannot co-exist in my head without blaring klaxons assaulting my mental ear nonstop, which certainly would subtract from my happiness.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: The Magic Pudding on December 04, 2010, 11:05:23 AM
Ye, I'm with my robot pal who's fun to be with.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 04, 2010, 12:04:25 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"If that's the case, then it seems atheism has a material impact on your happiness.  Your atheistic views have brought you here, where you are able to do so much learning and impart learning on me and others!

Wrong, that's not what I said. I come here to learn, which has nothing to do with atheism. I visit lots of fora, with a wide variety of demographics. As for atheistic views, I have none, because atheism in its rigorous form doesn't constitute or engender any views. I simply don't believe in deities, which is all that atheism is.

If you're going to twist what I say, you know what you can expect the outcome to be.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 04, 2010, 01:09:12 PM
Quote from: "hackenslash"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"
Quote from: "hackenslash"Very well put, Whitney.

For my part, my atheism has no connection to happiness. It's simply the absence of a single class of belief. The things that make me happy are, I suspect, largely the same things that make just about everybody happy, and belief in a cosmic curtain-twitcher is not necessary for that.

What makes you happy?

Life, love, learning, music, literature, good food, drink, drugs...

All manner of things really. If I were pressed to sum up in one word what makes me happy, it is this: Experience.

For an atheist, you sound very spiritual.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 04, 2010, 01:31:30 PM
Define 'spiritual'. I certainly don't believe in the existence of anything called the 'spirit', but I do recognise that there are things that transcend the mere material. I couldn't do my job without said recognition.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 04, 2010, 02:13:34 PM
Quote from: "hackenslash"Define 'spiritual'. I certainly don't believe in the existence of anything called the 'spirit', but I do recognise that there are things that transcend the mere material. I couldn't do my job without said recognition.

That's what I meant. That you recognise that there are things that transcend the material. You used words like love, life, experience. Ultimately everything is an experience.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 04, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
The problem is that the word 'spiritual' has baggage that I reject utterly. Other than that baggage, I have no objection, but that baggage is not inconsiderable.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 04, 2010, 02:58:02 PM
Quote from: "hackenslash"The problem is that the word 'spiritual' has baggage that I reject utterly. Other than that baggage, I have no objection, but that baggage is not inconsiderable.

Fair enough. But you can see that it's not a great leap to go from what you have in mind to the baggage that has come to be associated with those concepts. It's in poetry, literature, songs, and everyday speech. Humans will, I'm pretty sure, always be predisposed to making that short jump.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 04, 2010, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"That's what I meant. That you recognise that there are things that transcend the material. You used words like love, life, experience. Ultimately everything is an experience.

Ultimately everything is chemistry.  Experience, and purpose as well, arise out of brain chemistry, which arose out of DNA, prenatal development, postnatal development, digestion, respiration, data input, data processing, and data storage - all chemistry.  I can speak of a song's beauty, and often do, but why is it beautiful for me?  Chemistry!  I can speak of a movie's power, and often do, but why is it powerful for me?  Chemistry!  We can respond to that in one of two ways.  We can say beauty and power are being denigrated by their association with chemistry, or we can say chemistry is being elevated by its association with beauty and power.  I pick the latter.  Grand is chemistry and triumphant!  Mighty is chemistry and sublime!  For behold!  It has made symphonies and tragedies, and sent Olympian chaiots out beyond the clouds to reach and come to rest on Diana's round and silver abode.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 04, 2010, 03:23:00 PM
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"That's what I meant. That you recognise that there are things that transcend the material. You used words like love, life, experience. Ultimately everything is an experience.

Ultimately everything is chemistry.  Experience, and purpose as well, arise out of brain chemistry, which arose out of DNA, prenatal development, postnatal development, digestion, respiration, data input, data processing, and data storage - all chemistry.  I can speak of a song's beauty, and often do, but why is it beautiful for me?  Chemistry!  I can speak of a movie's power, and often do, but why is it powerful for me?  Chemistry!  We can respond to that in one of two ways.  We can say beauty and power are being denigrated by their association with chemistry, or we can say chemistry is being elevated by its association with beauty and power.  I pick the latter.  Grand is chemistry and triumphant!  Mighty is chemistry and sublime!  For behold!  It has made symphonies and tragedies, and sent Olympian chaiots out beyond the clouds to reach and come to rest on Diana's round and silver abode.

Do you gnow that for sure?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 04, 2010, 03:31:40 PM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Do you gnow that for sure?

To the extent I know anything for sure, yes.  Knowledge about natural causality derives from logical empiricism.  Empiricism identifies no action or reaction of mine that isn't a bodily phenomenon, and nothing going on inside my body except chemistry, thus logic demands that all of my bodily phenomena, which constitute all of my actions and reactions, derive from chemistry.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 04, 2010, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Do you gnow that for sure?

To the extent I know anything for sure, yes.  Knowledge about natural causality derives from logical empiricism.  Empiricism identifies no action or reaction of mine that isn't a bodily phenomenon, and nothing going on inside my body except chemistry, thus logic demands that all of my bodily phenomena, which constitute all of my actions and reactions, derive from chemistry.

That's an interesting set of ground rules you have there. Interesting because it both explains what it is meant to be able to explain, and limits you to only that which can be explained by them. It also explains why you're an atheist. It's like if you only know english, and can therefore understand everything ever said or written in english, but anything in any other language can be said to not mean anything or even exist, because, well, it isn't in english. It's circular reasoning by the looks of it, but at least it has it's uses.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: hackenslash on December 04, 2010, 03:43:50 PM
Ah, the old 'empiricism is circular' canard.

The problem there is that circular reasoning is a deductive fallacy, and only applies to deductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning is not subject to that charge.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 04, 2010, 04:16:57 PM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Interesting because it both explains what it is meant to be able to explain, and limits you to only that which can be explained by them.

You say that like it's a bad thing.  I'm actually quite proud of that.  Refusing to treat gibberish as if it were intelligible is a great way to keep the brain free of rubbish.  

QuoteIt also explains why you're an atheist.

It absolutely does.  I emphatically agree.

QuoteIt's like if you only know english, and can therefore understand everything ever said or written in english, but anything in any other language can be said to not mean anything or even exist, because, well, it isn't in english.

No.  It's more like, if somebody said to me, "I just said something to you without using language.  Did you catch it?  Here, I'll say it again!  Did you catch it?"

Logical empiricism for assessing empirical phenomena, and logic alone for assessing non-empirical phenomena, aren't two languages among many.  They're the only languages.  

What theists will propose as languages in this context are such things as faith, intuition, and emotion.  Faith is believing something because you want to.  It represents desire invading and usurping control of one's epistemology.  Intuition is a potent tool for generating hypotheses, but those hypotheses must then be tested via logical empiricism or logic alone, depending on the subject matter.  Emotion is a source of information about oneself and only oneself.

QuoteIt's circular reasoning by the looks of it, but at least it has it's uses.

I'll let hackenslash argue the logical fallacy question, since he already set up his shot at goal.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Wilson on December 04, 2010, 10:50:39 PM
What is our goal in life?

Mostly, to be happy during our lifetimes as much as possible, and to make those we love happy.  Human beings are drawn toward happiness.  Evolution made us want to feel that emotion as much as possible.  Physical pleasure, quiet satisfactions, feelings of safety and security, contentment.  We don't like feeling depressed, sad, anxious, fearful.  Atheists and godders alike.  All the other goals - creating beauty, raising a family, leaving something of ourselves behind, helping others, whatever - are so that we and those we love can be happy.  

We of the atheist and agnostic persuasion are condemned to deal with reality.  We know we're going to die.  We know that nobody is watching us from heaven.  We know that it doesn't do any good to pray.  Many of us wish those things weren't true, that God was watching over us, that eternal life was achievable - but we know that the odds are so incredibly against it that that we would lose our self-respect if we allowed ourselves to believe in fairy tales just because we were afraid.

In the final analysis, I'm not sure that religious people are any happier than nonbelievers.  Maybe they are, a little - but without question a lot of atheists are happy and a lot of believers aren't, so it sure isn't a guarantee.  It seems to me that at least at the time of dying, on average, atheists and agnostics seem calmer and better able to face the end than religious people, because at that point those who have been believers all their lives must face the reality that an afterlife, when you finally get down to it, looks a little unlikely - and even if it exists, did you make the cut?  Magic is more believable if you don't think about it too much, and as you approach the end of life, you have to think about it.  Atheists, having dealt with the truth for a while - that this life is all we have - are better equipped to let go with dignity and calm.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 04, 2010, 11:46:47 PM
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Interesting because it both explains what it is meant to be able to explain, and limits you to only that which can be explained by them.

You say that like it's a bad thing.  I'm actually quite proud of that.  Refusing to treat gibberish as if it were intelligible is a great way to keep the brain free of rubbish.  

QuoteIt also explains why you're an atheist.

It absolutely does.  I emphatically agree.

QuoteIt's like if you only know english, and can therefore understand everything ever said or written in english, but anything in any other language can be said to not mean anything or even exist, because, well, it isn't in english.

No.  It's more like, if somebody said to me, "I just said something to you without using language.  Did you catch it?  Here, I'll say it again!  Did you catch it?"

Logical empiricism for assessing empirical phenomena, and logic alone for assessing non-empirical phenomena, aren't two languages among many.  They're the only languages.  

What theists will propose as languages in this context are such things as faith, intuition, and emotion.  Faith is believing something because you want to.  It represents desire invading and usurping control of one's epistemology.  Intuition is a potent tool for generating hypotheses, but those hypotheses must then be tested via logical empiricism or logic alone, depending on the subject matter.  Emotion is a source of information about oneself and only oneself.

QuoteIt's circular reasoning by the looks of it, but at least it has it's uses.

I'll let hackenslash argue the logical fallacy question, since he already set up his shot at goal.

You're merely demonstrating what I said. Anything outside your world view is nonsense, as judged by.....(totally unbiased of course).....your worldview. You're in a room with no windows and you claim there's nothing outside. How would you know, you have no windows.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 05, 2010, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"You're merely demonstrating what I said. Anything outside your world view is nonsense, as judged by.....(totally unbiased of course).....your worldview. You're in a room with no windows and you claim there's nothing outside. How would you know, you have no windows.

Two questions.  First, do you agree or disagree, and to what extent and why, with the following from my previous post: Faith is believing something because you want to. It represents desire invading and usurping control of one's epistemology. Intuition is a potent tool for generating hypotheses, but those hypotheses must then be tested via logical empiricism or logic alone, depending on the subject matter. Emotion is a source of information about oneself and only oneself.

Second, consider the world view of the Mayans, as described in their sacred book, The Popol Vuh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popol_vuh

Do you accept or reject the Mayan world view, and to what extent and why?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Davin on December 05, 2010, 10:01:55 AM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Yikes... I'm getting a lot of responses that atheism has nothing to do with your happiness.  It's a big internet, gang, why not join a forum that's more aligned with topics that will impact your happiness?
I post on several forums.

This one has a good community of people for discussing various things. When discussing certain things, it's far more useful to discuss with people that are honestly searching for the truth. Over the years I've found that atheist boards have far fewer people unwilling to drop their preconceptions and accept the evidence. Also atheists tend to be more open to free speech, so if free speech is something you prefer, then an atheist forum, and specifically this atheist forum is a very good place. I don't find it very useful to constantly have to ensure that my word choice and syntax are correct, nor to constantly correct other people's misrepresentation of my ideas. This forum in particular allows me to speak more easily with little fear of that.

Which is why I joined and post on this forum.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Khalliqa on December 05, 2010, 12:03:05 PM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"You're merely demonstrating what I said. Anything outside your world view is nonsense, as judged by.....(totally unbiased of course).....your worldview. You're in a room with no windows and you claim there's nothing outside. How would you know, you have no windows.


IMO such a thing is not a matter of limitation but best possible outcome.. The method of testing a hypothesis utilizing controls and consistency has yielded greater results towards understanding how our world works than faith..    Such a mind tears the material of walls daily, testing them.. retesting them...  retracting and re-establishing theories and truths..  Such a method breaks down and builds up windows and walls ...  The real restriction is the mind that claims to have figured out the purpose and whole of human existence utilizing the tool of faith in oral mythical traditions..  THe latter seems more windowless than the former...

Quote from: "bandit4god"Honest theist question: what is life's goal for an atheist?  Stated differently, what is happiness?


Whatever brings me personal peace..  and whatever yields the greatest and most successful peace for humanity... :-)
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 05, 2010, 01:25:55 PM
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"You're merely demonstrating what I said. Anything outside your world view is nonsense, as judged by.....(totally unbiased of course).....your worldview. You're in a room with no windows and you claim there's nothing outside. How would you know, you have no windows.

Two questions.  First, do you agree or disagree, and to what extent and why, with the following from my previous post: Faith is believing something because you want to. It represents desire invading and usurping control of one's epistemology. Intuition is a potent tool for generating hypotheses, but those hypotheses must then be tested via logical empiricism or logic alone, depending on the subject matter. Emotion is a source of information about oneself and only oneself.

Second, consider the world view of the Mayans, as described in their sacred book, The Popol Vuh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popol_vuh

Do you accept or reject the Mayan world view, and to what extent and why?

1) It can be those things.
2) I don't have time to read all about the mayans. If you break it down to the basics I'll give you my opinion.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 05, 2010, 02:50:47 PM
Quote from: "Wilson"What is our goal in life?

Mostly, to be happy during our lifetimes as much as possible, and to make those we love happy.  Human beings are drawn toward happiness.  Evolution made us want to feel that emotion as much as possible.  Physical pleasure, quiet satisfactions, feelings of safety and security, contentment.  We don't like feeling depressed, sad, anxious, fearful.  Atheists and godders alike.  All the other goals - creating beauty, raising a family, leaving something of ourselves behind, helping others, whatever - are so that we and those we love can be happy.  

We of the atheist and agnostic persuasion are condemned to deal with reality.  We know we're going to die.  We know that nobody is watching us from heaven.  We know that it doesn't do any good to pray.  Many of us wish those things weren't true, that God was watching over us, that eternal life was achievable - but we know that the odds are so incredibly against it that that we would lose our self-respect if we allowed ourselves to believe in fairy tales just because we were afraid.

In the final analysis, I'm not sure that religious people are any happier than nonbelievers.  Maybe they are, a little - but without question a lot of atheists are happy and a lot of believers aren't, so it sure isn't a guarantee.  It seems to me that at least at the time of dying, on average, atheists and agnostics seem calmer and better able to face the end than religious people, because at that point those who have been believers all their lives must face the reality that an afterlife, when you finally get down to it, looks a little unlikely - and even if it exists, did you make the cut?  Magic is more believable if you don't think about it too much, and as you approach the end of life, you have to think about it.  Atheists, having dealt with the truth for a while - that this life is all we have - are better equipped to let go with dignity and calm.

Awesome post, Wilson, thanks for the above.  Your third paragraph I found particularly compelling, and so spent much of yesterday reflecting on my two years in Iraq and how folks at differing ends of the atheist-theist spectrum dealt with the prospect of death.

Results were mixed, but patterns were nonetheless clear.  Before a particularly harrowing mission, atheists would be what I can only roughly describe as "grim".  Some took on a grisly sense of humor about it, others were quiet and sullen, and still others immersed themselves in the technical details of the mission and were all business.  The theist, remarkably, demonstrated surprisingly less self-orientation than the atheist.  Going from person to person, they tried to cheer up their fellow soldier and engender some sense of hope and purpose.  The chaplains were the most fun of these to watch--with no proselytizing agenda whatsoever, they just went around to groups of soldiers offering an upbeat joke or a word of encouragement.

You've sparked a new line of discourse around atheism and facing death that probably deserves another topic, Wilson, thanks again!
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 05, 2010, 03:30:12 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Yikes... I'm getting a lot of responses that atheism has nothing to do with your happiness.  It's a big internet, gang, why not join a forum that's more aligned with topics that will impact your happiness?

Why assume that just because someone is on an atheist forum that they aren't spending the great majority of their time pursuing other forms of enjoyment.  Even the owner of this forum I spend probably 95% of my free time doing things unrelated to this or any other atheist forum; and of that 5% I do spend on here it's typically not discussing anything other than the mundane stuff with my online friends.  A good portion of my free time (though still less thatn half) is, however, focused on supporting my local freethought/skeptic community but I would do that even if I were a theist since despite what I think about god I would never again be able to buy into the dogma of religion.

The only reason this forum even exists is because religious people won't simply let people be non-religious in some areas so there are many who need a place where it is safe to speak openly when they are frustrated or just need to know they aren't alone.  Their being an atheist does not make them happy, what makes them (and all people) happy is the ability to be who they are without fear of oppression and for some of us that takes going virtual as the real world isn't always nice.

Creating a community where a minority is able to feel welcomed and at peace makes me happy.

How old are you, I'm guessing quite young because typically people start to realize that the reasoning behind what others do is way too varied to make assumptions as to their intent and purpose...if you want to know why someone does something you have to ask otherwise you're bound to be wrong and make yourself look like a fool.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 05, 2010, 04:46:27 PM
Another perspective on happiness:
[youtube:2wj5vvnk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE[/youtube:2wj5vvnk]
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 05, 2010, 04:53:19 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Another perspective on happiness:

Care to explain how that's a perspective?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 05, 2010, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"Another perspective on happiness:
[youtube:2n7pseus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE[/youtube:2n7pseus]

Happiness for the choir members:  Risking their own embarrassment to share a message of hope and peace to strangers using their incredible vocal talents.
Happiness for the audience:  Smiles on every face (all of them theists?), turning an otherwise normal bath of fast food and consumerism into a transcendent moment of joy.

Didn't enjoy it, Whitney?  Not even just a little?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 05, 2010, 05:30:25 PM
Aw, I see...so your perspective on happiness is that people should do whatever they want despite the behavior rules of society...it's all about you isn't it.  ;)
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: bandit4god on December 05, 2010, 05:42:46 PM
Quote from: "Whitney"Aw, I see...so your perspective on happiness is that people should do whatever they want despite the behavior rules of society...it's all about you isn't it.  ;)
What?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: dloubet on December 05, 2010, 06:51:02 PM
The flash mob disregarded behavioral norms to bludgeon innocent shoppers with an ideological message they were forced to listen to whether they liked it or not. It was an essentially selfish act of promoting their particular religion.

What you arrogantly assume everyone would view as a message of "hope and peace" may simply serve to remind someone such as myself that a disturbingly large number of people actually believe that I - for some reason - deserve to be tortured forever in a lake of fire. Not something I care to think about when I'm trying to enjoy a quiet meal.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: McQ on December 05, 2010, 07:09:53 PM
While this particular display of singing wouldn't have bothered me in the least and while I would appreciate the talented people, I simply find it a total rip off of "Improv Everywhere" and their great "I Love Lunch".

http://improveverywhere.com/2009/11/05/ ... e-musical/ (http://improveverywhere.com/2009/11/05/i-love-lunch-the-musical/)
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: elliebean on December 05, 2010, 07:23:26 PM
Quote from: "dloubet"The flash mob disregarded behavioral norms to bludgeon innocent shoppers with an ideological message they were forced to listen to whether they liked it or not. It was an essentially selfish act of promoting their particular religion.

What you arrogantly assume everyone would view as a message of "hope and peace" may simply serve to remind someone such as myself that a disturbingly large number of people actually believe that I - for some reason - deserve to be tortured forever in a lake of fire. Not something I care to think about when I'm trying to enjoy a quiet meal.
I thought it was about beauty. You know, art? aesthetic experience and all that. That' what I took from it, and thoroughly enjoyed it, in spite of the message (which I never really considered) It wouldn't surprise me if there were non-religious, non-believing, or even atheist members of that choir. If you can't see past that, then, well, sorry. But if you want to enjoy a quiet meal, what the hell are you doing in a shopping mall, seriously?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Whitney on December 05, 2010, 10:09:44 PM
What if it had been a mob choir singing "Dear God" in the food court and an atheist had offered it up as a perspective on happiness....bandit would have claimed it to be a selfish act just as he has with everything else people have listed as life goals and descriptions of happiness...hence my comment which got the clueless "what?" response.

[youtube:35zh76vy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrueVp_kuZ8[/youtube:35zh76vy]
note song chosen because it also has a nice tune and expresses views some may find untasteful; not because it's a happy song (I would have used imagine as an example but I don't think that offends anyone despite it being anti-religion).
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: KDbeads on December 06, 2010, 01:10:22 AM
Love that song.  Though I like XTC's version a little better  :D
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 06, 2010, 08:09:48 AM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"I suppose it's possible for an atheist to be ok with the idea of this world being all there is, and to be happy. Obvious however that requires acceptance, which is fine. On the other hand, if that acceptance is lacking, the atheist would of course be less able to be happy. For theists that isn't an issue.

The above was an early post to this thread, and I think it got passed over in deference to some other back and forthing that apparently seemed more interesting at least to some of us, certainly myself.

Chandler, do you in fact make use of your belief in an afterlife to help you get through difficult times here on Earth?  How effective has that strategy been for you?  

Do any other theists use this strategy?  How effective has it been for you?

Meanwhile, most atheists don't have recourse to such a strategy.  To such atheists I ask - do you think you lose or gain by having to live your life without such recourse?

As for me, I tend to think life is both too long and too short for such a strategy to benefit me.  Too long, because I hopefully have another forty years to live, and forty years of predictable misery is way too much to make peace with via some psychological mechanism.  I have to do my best to eliminate or mitigate whatever in my life might be making me miserable.  Too short, because if I only have another forty years to exist at all, I can't allow myself to become complacent, for if I do, I'll wake up on my 90th birthday (hopefully I'll still be here and still be coherent) only to realize that death is sitting on my shoulder and on my other shoulder, the one where life sits, all I see is this pathetic loser hiding his face in shame.

What atheism does is force me to grab hold of my life with both hands and wrestle the thing into submission, so it will yield up to me its secret treasure chest of opportunities.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 06, 2010, 11:48:00 AM
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"I suppose it's possible for an atheist to be ok with the idea of this world being all there is, and to be happy. Obvious however that requires acceptance, which is fine. On the other hand, if that acceptance is lacking, the atheist would of course be less able to be happy. For theists that isn't an issue.

The above was an early post to this thread, and I think it got passed over in deference to some other back and forthing that apparently seemed more interesting at least to some of us, certainly myself.

Chandler, do you in fact make use of your belief in an afterlife to help you get through difficult times here on Earth?  How effective has that strategy been for you?  

Do any other theists use this strategy?  How effective has it been for you?

Meanwhile, most atheists don't have recourse to such a strategy.  To such atheists I ask - do you think you lose or gain by having to live your life without such recourse?

As for me, I tend to think life is both too long and too short for such a strategy to benefit me.  Too long, because I hopefully have another forty years to live, and forty years of predictable misery is way too much to make peace with via some psychological mechanism.  I have to do my best to eliminate or mitigate whatever in my life might be making me miserable.  Too short, because if I only have another forty years to exist at all, I can't allow myself to become complacent, for if I do, I'll wake up on my 90th birthday (hopefully I'll still be here and still be coherent) only to realize that death is sitting on my shoulder and on my other shoulder, the one where life sits, all I see is this pathetic loser hiding his face in shame.

What atheism does is force me to grab hold of my life with both hands and wrestle the thing into submission, so it will yield up to me its secret treasure chest of opportunities.

I live my life like anyone else. With a few differences.

I don't :

- feel free to do bad things on the basis that I have an eternity in which to make up for it
- feel that it's ok to waste my life on the basis that there'll be another afterwards
- disregard this life on the basis that it's merely one of many

I do :

- regard all events as meaningful and not random, and as a result, I take full responsibility for all events
- see life as a learning experience, and a a result, I try to spot opportunity in everything, and I also look back at past events to see what I can learn from them
- value this life, however it's not the end of the world whe it's over, as I will contnue in another incarnation. I look at life similarly to how I look at money : use it wisely, but if you mess up, not to worry, next week you'll get paid again, and you'll have another chance to get it right. The goal of life is to get it right.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: LegendarySandwich on December 06, 2010, 05:00:56 PM
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"
Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"I suppose it's possible for an atheist to be ok with the idea of this world being all there is, and to be happy. Obvious however that requires acceptance, which is fine. On the other hand, if that acceptance is lacking, the atheist would of course be less able to be happy. For theists that isn't an issue.

The above was an early post to this thread, and I think it got passed over in deference to some other back and forthing that apparently seemed more interesting at least to some of us, certainly myself.

Chandler, do you in fact make use of your belief in an afterlife to help you get through difficult times here on Earth?  How effective has that strategy been for you?  

Do any other theists use this strategy?  How effective has it been for you?

Meanwhile, most atheists don't have recourse to such a strategy.  To such atheists I ask - do you think you lose or gain by having to live your life without such recourse?

As for me, I tend to think life is both too long and too short for such a strategy to benefit me.  Too long, because I hopefully have another forty years to live, and forty years of predictable misery is way too much to make peace with via some psychological mechanism.  I have to do my best to eliminate or mitigate whatever in my life might be making me miserable.  Too short, because if I only have another forty years to exist at all, I can't allow myself to become complacent, for if I do, I'll wake up on my 90th birthday (hopefully I'll still be here and still be coherent) only to realize that death is sitting on my shoulder and on my other shoulder, the one where life sits, all I see is this pathetic loser hiding his face in shame.

What atheism does is force me to grab hold of my life with both hands and wrestle the thing into submission, so it will yield up to me its secret treasure chest of opportunities.

I live my life like anyone else. With a few differences.

I don't :

- feel free to do bad things on the basis that I have an eternity in which to make up for it
- feel that it's ok to waste my life on the basis that there'll be another afterwards
- disregard this life on the basis that it's merely one of many

I do :

- regard all events as meaningful and not random, and as a result, I take full responsibility for all events
- see life as a learning experience, and a a result, I try to spot opportunity in everything, and I also look back at past events to see what I can learn from them
- value this life, however it's not the end of the world whe it's over, as I will contnue in another incarnation. I look at life similarly to how I look at money : use it wisely, but if you mess up, not to worry, next week you'll get paid again, and you'll have another chance to get it right. The goal of life is to get it right.
Those "differences" don't sound so different than how the next guy lives his life. I'm pretty sure that most (sane) people do the things you do, and don't do the things you don't.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Chandler M Bing on December 06, 2010, 05:04:47 PM
Which is why my belief system is compatible with living a good life.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: karadan on December 06, 2010, 05:27:14 PM
For me, happiness is a great many things. None of them have anything to do with god.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Ihateyoumike on December 06, 2010, 06:51:33 PM
Quote from: "karadan"For me, happiness is a great many things. None of them have anything to do with god.

A great deal of my happiness comes from endorphins.  ;)
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Wilson on December 10, 2010, 06:14:12 PM
Quote from: "bandit4god"It's clear from your posts that there is a theme around, "Happiness for the atheist is defined by the individual, pursuing whatever potential sources of happiness he/she desires".  My question, then, is what comes first for the atheist:  the desire to do whatever you want, or the belief that there is no god?  It seems possible to me that, if the former was firmly established, it could dramatically influence whatever intellectual processes go into assessing the latter.  Thoughts?

"The desire to do what you want"?  You seem to be implying that atheists have no sense of duty, morality, ethics, responsibility, and so on.  Ridiculous!  The behavior of religious people may be affected to some extent by their religious teachings, but in most cases not very much.  When it comes to stealing, cruelty to animals, murder, and extortion, I hope it isn't just your religion that keeps you on the straight and narrow.  We all have within us a sense of right and wrong that is independent of religion and belief in God, and that evolved in us because it offered survival advantages to the hunter-gatherer tribes that were our ancestors.  There are good and bad atheists, and if you read the newspapers you know that there are good and bad religious people, including religious leaders.  

And are you also implying that people decide not to believe in God so that there will be no restrictions on their behavior?  If so, you really are lacking in understanding human nature.  Is it so hard to comprehend that certain people look at the question as objectively as possible and become convinced that the existence of God (especially the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God) is unlikely?  Personally, I wish there were a God looking out for me and I wish there was the possibility of eternal life.  Unfortunately, my logic tells me otherwise.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 10, 2010, 11:09:26 PM
Quote from: "Wilson"...and I wish there was the possibility of eternal life...

Oh, the possibility is there.  But the probability can't be assessed, unfortunately, so we atheists treat the probability as zero.

Neuroscience has demonstrated the strong likelihood that our brains are necessary for all of our conscious experience.  But are our brains sufficient?  We won't know that unless and until we learn to read neural activity like words and pictures on a page.  Achieve this feat and we will know our brains are sufficient as well as necessary, and all talk of surviving death in any form will die the final death of the vampire staked and beheaded.  Fail to achieve it for a long enough period of time, say, another hundred years, and the probability that our brains are insufficient will start to look so high as to demand our attention.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Wilson on December 11, 2010, 12:22:55 AM
Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"Neuroscience has demonstrated the strong likelihood that our brains are necessary for all of our conscious experience.  But are our brains sufficient?  We won't know that unless and until we learn to read neural activity like words and pictures on a page.  Achieve this feat and we will know our brains are sufficient as well as necessary, and all talk of surviving death in any form will die the final death of the vampire staked and beheaded.  Fail to achieve it for a long enough period of time, say, another hundred years, and the probability that our brains are insufficient will start to look so high as to demand our attention.
Are there non-religious people who believe that our consciousness is not entirely a physical phenomenon?  That sounds almost like a belief in a soul or in the supernatural.  I believe that our brains are just extensions of those of our animal cousins - chimps, dogs, fish - who also experience emotions and make decisions and are self-aware in that they act in their own self-interest - and it isn't pure instinct until you get further down the chain.  Our brains are huge compared to them and we have language so that we can have conversations with ourselves and figure out complicated stuff and ponder the meaning of life.  Now if we believe that there is a mysterious force or substance that is necessary for our self-awareness or consciousness, and if we accept that we have evolved from other species, then where in the animal tree did that force or substance make its appearance?  It would be rather arrogant of us to postulate that it's exclusively human.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Inevitable Droid on December 11, 2010, 03:23:41 AM
Quote from: "Wilson"Are there non-religious people who believe that our consciousness is not entirely a physical phenomenon?

Non-religious?  Sure.  Atheist?  More rare.  I'm making the (probably trivial) point that there are non-religious theists.

But to believe or disbelieve something's factuality aren't the only options.  One can, more softly, believe or disbelieve something's plausibility, or, softer still, something's raw possibility.  As for the soul, I have no opinion as to its factuality, and no opinion as to its plausibility, but as for its raw possibility, sure, why not?  Nothing scientific precludes its raw possibility.  Same thing with God.  I have no opinion as to his factuality, and no opinion as to his plausibility, but as for his raw possibility, sure, why not?  Nothing scientific precludes his raw possibility.

Atheism isn't an ideology for me.  It's strictly an absence, a negation.  If I have an ideology, it's scientarianism.  For me, a proposition is factual if and only if science supports its factuality, or plausible if and only if science supports its plausibility.  As for raw possibility, where neither factuality nor plausibility can be assessed, I'm more easy-going, in that I'll entertain the notion so long as science doesn't preclude it.  Why?  Because science really can only assess factuality and plausibility.  When a scientist says X is impossible, what's really being said is either (a) Y is a fact and Y contradicts X; or else (b) Y is a fact and Y negates the plausibility of X.  With regard to the soul, no fact contradicts it and no fact negates its plausibility.  No fact supports it either, or supports its plausibility.  The soul is outside the sphere of knowledge science governs, because the soul is non-empirical.  Science has no opinion on the non-empirical.
 
I am willing to act on the basis of fact, and also on the basis of plausibility.  I am unwilling to act on the basis of raw possibility, where factuality and even plausibility cannot be assessed.  I am therefore unwilling to take any action on the basis of God or the soul.  I treat them both as irrelevancies.

Hmm.  Maybe Sophus was right after all.  Maybe I'm at bottom an apatheist.  Toward the non-empirical my stance is utter apathy.

QuoteNow if we believe that there is a mysterious force or substance that is necessary for our self-awareness or consciousness, and if we accept that we have evolved from other species, then where in the animal tree did that force or substance make its appearance?  It would be rather arrogant of us to postulate that it's exclusively human.

Oh, if I have a soul, then bacteria do too, I guess.  Why not?  If the soul is the component of consciousness exterior to the brain, then I guess the soul's existence doesn't hinge on any of the brain's attributes, nor even on the brain's existence, presumably.  Who knows?  I sure don't.  Nor does science.  Nor can science investigate the question.  Anything science can't even investigate, I disregard on principle, which is another way of saying that on principle I withhold concern or interest; on principle, my stance is apathy.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Kylyssa on December 13, 2010, 09:16:37 PM
For me, happiness is improving the lives of my fellow human beings.  Nothing feels better than helping someone else.  My goal is to help homeless people which is why I've devoted so much of my life to it.  This is confusing to many Christians because they can't figure out why someone would care about others without religion.  This does relate to atheism because, as an atheist, I don't think God is going to help anyone so we'd better do it.  It also relates to atheism because I do not ascribe to the assorted bigotries associated with religion such as homophobia and discrimination against people of different beliefs.

You see, Christianity causes some types of homelessness, mostly those relating to gay teens and young adults.  Religion is at least peripherally responsible for about 400,000 young Americans being homeless each year.  It's also responsible for the fact that Christian-run homeless shelters, food banks and soup kitchens can refuse to serve people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, queer or non-Christian.  And they do.  Catholic Social Services lost government funding because they would rather not help people than comply with anti-discrimination laws.  

Last year, in my state, a program for feeding homeless people was greatly diminished when three out of eight Christian churches quit the program because two of the other churches refused to support discriminatory practices against lgbtq folks.  Kudos to the five churches who continue to serve homeless people regardless of their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.  But those three bigot churches still exist and they would rather not help people than work with not even lgbtq people but churches and people who refuse to discriminate against them.

Other Christian folk think that helping people out of suffering is harmful to those people's souls, that God had a reason for them to suffer.  Those folks are fairly rare but they are usually loud and annoying.  Sometimes they work to whip up anti-homeless people sentiments.  When they run shelters they are known for allowing horrifying shelter conditions and advising people not to help homeless people for fear homeless people will become too comfortable being homeless - as if giving a freezing woman a coat and blanket makes her so comfy she won't mind the repeated rapes and assaults many homeless women face.

Religion has an overwhelming connection with bigotry.  Look at Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, and most white supremacy groups - they are all groups that self-identify as Christian.  Now why would hating people equate to happiness?

When I was healthy and had a bigger place, I took in 17 homeless teens and young adults, some for only a week or so, others for more than a year at a time.  I also worked at homeless shelters, soup kitchens, a food bank, a literacy program, and several job training programs.  I also went out into the community to help homeless people get connected with services that would help them and help get homeless minors placed in foster care.  Now, I'm very ill (brain tumor, lupus, fibromyalgia) so I rarely leave my home and I've had to find other means to help homeless people.  Now I work on letter-writing campaigns in support of homeless friendly legislation and against legislation harmful to homeless people.  I also write articles designed to raise empathy for homeless people and give suggestions on how people can help homeless people.  Nothing makes me happier than when people write to me to tell me about how my articles inspired them to help homeless people or when someone says I helped them to respect homeless people as human beings except maybe when anti-homeless people legislation is defeated.

Don't believe me?  Check out my pages on homelessness at http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/Kylyssa (http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/Kylyssa) and see for yourself.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Wilson on December 13, 2010, 11:12:41 PM
Kylyssa, what your post - and your life - shows is that morality is largely innate and not based just on the rules of a church.  Out of curiosity, were you born into a religious home?
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: AverageJoe on December 14, 2010, 12:07:32 AM
Hmm I can't say my atheism makes me want to do whatever I like, and I understand I cannot simply do whatever I like due to rules and regulations. I also understand that doing whatever I like may in some cases have a negative impact on other people - I DO care about other people not only myself, and don't need a deity to make me care about others on fear of punishment - I care about others just because I'm niiiiiiice.

What makes me happy? Fluffy puppies, pizzas, helping others, sunny days, family time, going to the football, watching tv, surfing the net, loads of things really.

What are my goals? Tougher, I suppose to raise my kids properly and get through life without too much trouble.

The meaning of life? There isn't one as far as I can tell, we're here one minute and gone the next, just like everything else in the universe.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: elliebean on December 14, 2010, 02:23:50 AM
Quote from: "AverageJoe"Hmm I can't say my atheism makes me want to do whatever I like, and I understand I cannot simply do whatever I like due to rules and regulations. I also understand that doing whatever I like may in some cases have a negative impact on other people...
Sure you do whatever you like; you just happen to like conducting yourself in such a way as to avoid unnecessary, preventable, negative consequences more than you like some other things.
Same as most anyone else.

Has nothing at all to do with atheism, though.
Title: Re: Atheism and happiness
Post by: Kylyssa on December 14, 2010, 05:36:39 PM
Quote from: "Wilson"Kylyssa, what your post - and your life - shows is that morality is largely innate and not based just on the rules of a church.  Out of curiosity, were you born into a religious home?
No.  My mother was an agnostic and my father an atheist.  I enjoy helping people because I feel empathy for them and no one taught me not to.  It's as simple as that.