Ye Gods!

[En_Route]

Ye Shiwen's feats at the Olympics strike me as either constituting the miracle we have all dreaded which requires an urgent rewrite of the atheist's handbook, or else a triumph of modern pharmaceutical ingenuity. The probability of her being a genuine lupus naturae seem to me to be vanishingly small.

[Crow]

Or the outcome of human selection.

[The Magic Pudding]

I don't know if she is guilty or not, don't even know what she looks like.  People judging others with a lack of evidence is a problem, though I suppose we all do it occasionally.  I don't like elitist sport and the constant news of doping brought to me by loathsome sport officials.  Activity which you enjoy and is good for you should be encouraged, those who seek an audience usually just bore me.

[Stevil]

Making public claims to the media without any evidence what-so-ever should be slander. These people should be sued.

[En_Route]

Making public claims to the media without any evidence what-so-ever should be slander. These people should be sued.

I think there is evidence though it is not conclusive. She comes from a country  with a history of doping. There is apparently very little to stop her from using illegal methods prior to participation in the games.Her results are verging on the superhuman. To my mind, the balance of probabilities weigh very heavily In favour of her having used illegal substances.

[Crow]

Making public claims to the media without any evidence what-so-ever should be slander. These people should be sued.

I think there is evidence though it is not conclusive. She comes from a country  with a history of doping. There is apparently very little to stop her from using illegal methods prior to participation in the games.Her results are verging on the superhuman. To my mind, the balance of probabilities weigh very heavily In favour of her having used illegal substances.

I don't really mind to be honest if she was cracked up to the eye balls, well if she was she would probably drown. But its fun and exciting to watch. Maybe her team has found a better way of training, just look at the mens gymnastics and how the Japanese use to rule the roost, the second the Chinese adopted their training methods they ended up with all the golds, the UK team adopted the style between Beijing and London and are now a medal worthy team rather than the rubbish they use to be.

[En_Route]

Making public claims to the media without any evidence what-so-ever should be slander. These people should be sued.

I think there is evidence though it is not conclusive. She comes from a country  with a history of doping. There is apparently very little to stop her from using illegal methods prior to participation in the games.Her results are verging on the superhuman. To my mind, the balance of probabilities weigh very heavily In favour of her having used illegal substances.

I don't really mind to be honest if she was cracked up to the eye balls, well if she was she would probably drown. But its fun and exciting to watch. Maybe her team has found a better way of training, just look at the mens gymnastics and how the Japanese use to rule the roost, the second the Chinese adopted their training methods they ended up with all the golds, the UK team adopted the style between Beijing and London and are now a medal worthy team rather than the rubbish they use to be.

It's one thing to adopt improved training regimes and haul yourself up,from mediocrity, quite  another for a  top woman swimmer to outpace a top male swimmer at any point in a race. For this phenomenon to occur without the assistance of illegal substances or procedures is as near a miracle as we will ever witness on this
Planet. And my tolerance for miracles or near- miracles is rather low.

[Crow]

It's one thing to adopt improved training regimes and haul yourself up,from mediocrity, quite  another for a  top woman swimmer to outpace a top male swimmer at any point in a race. For this phenomenon to occur without the assistance of illegal substances or procedures is as near a miracle as we will ever witness on this
Planet. And my tolerance for miracles or near- miracles is rather low.

Maybe she's is part fish, maybe we will start seeing a new breed of women that are capable of competing alongside men, maybe she likes her chemistry set, maybe Michael Phelps is getting paid by the Chinese to dress in drag, or maybe she had an inboard jet installed. I just think it's a bit wrong to point fingers without any evidence.

[En_Route]

It's one thing to adopt improved training regimes and haul yourself up,from mediocrity, quite  another for a  top woman swimmer to outpace a top male swimmer at any point in a race. For this phenomenon to occur without the assistance of illegal substances or procedures is as near a miracle as we will ever witness on this
Planet. And my tolerance for miracles or near- miracles is rather low.

Maybe she's is part fish, maybe we will start seeing a new breed of women that are capable of competing alongside men, maybe she likes her chemistry set, maybe Michael Phelps is getting paid by the Chinese to dress in drag, or maybe she had an inboard jet installed. I just think it's a bit wrong to point fingers without any evidence.

The question is whether or not you favour one of two possibilities- a quasi- miracle or cheating. If a magician turned up at your house and apparently turned water into wine and then left before you could deconstruct how he might have done it, would you therefore feel obliged to take his feat at face value?

[OldGit]

I just think it's a bit wrong to point fingers without any evidence.

OK, but there is already some strong evidence here, albeit circumstantial:

1.  The times achieved are universally assessed by the experts as impossible in the natural way.

2.  The Chinese have an appalling record of doping.

So is it really unjust to express suspicion?

[Crow]

The question is whether or not you favour one of two possibilities- a quasi- miracle or cheating. If a magician turned up at your house and apparently turned water into wine and then left before you could deconstruct how he might have done it, would you therefore feel obliged to take his feat at face value?

I don't favor either really, just because it's unheard of I wouldn't take it as a miracle. There are no laws in nature that say it is impossible without the help of drugs. She may just have the right type of genetic make-up that is closer to that of the male competitors rather than her female competitors. There are more alternatives than a) miracle, b) doping.

So is it really unjust to express suspicion?

There is a difference between suspicion and accusation. When Bolt smashed the record everyone congratulated him, sure there were suspicions but that wasn't even the focus. This lass does amazing and the media just focus on the opinions of a few, prove it first before you start screaming witch. If it is true then scream all you like. Because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean its unnatural, in fact there are no laws of nature saying it is impossible without the aid of drugs.

I want to see an athletic event where all the competitors are doping.

[En_Route]

I want to see an athletic event where all the competitors are doping.

Turn on your TV and the chances are good your wish will come true.

[En_Route]

There is a difference between suspicion and accusation. When Bolt smashed the record everyone congratulated him, sure there were suspicions but that wasn't even the focus. This lass does amazing and the media just focus on the opinions of a few, prove it first before you start screaming witch.

People keep bandying around legalistic terminology like accusation, suspicion and proof as if we are presiding over a criminal case. I think it's a question of evaluating the probabilities. And given China's almost manic determination to rack up medals, its murky track record in doping, it's general disregard for the rule of law, the unprecedented performance of this girl, the fact that such superhuman exploits in the past have almost invariably been discovered to have been obtained illicitly, then anyone weighing the odds up objectively I would have though would infer that it is extremely likely she is a cheat. The notion that that people are innocent until proven guilty Is irrelevant. Even if it was relevant, this is an offence where it is not all that difficult to suppress the proof. The Chinese certainl y are not going to incriminate themselves . The last swimmer to record a barely credible improvement at the Olympics was Michelle Smith an Irish maiden  with a Dutch husband who came with a chequered history on the doping front. She did not show positive at the games themselves, but later doctored a random test and was subsequently banned for 4 years.

[The Magic Pudding]

1.  The times achieved are universally assessed by the experts as impossible in the natural way.

I don't think it's universal, I've heard an Australian coach and Australian swimmers take a different view.  She doesn't look to be of an extreme build, her improvement has been gradual over a number of years.  Aren't sport commentators universally assessed as a bunch of ass holes? maybe it's just by me. 

[markmcdaniel]

While there are reasons enough to be suspicious I would like to see some real evidence before I jump on this particular bandwagon. Proof, in fact, requires evidence not just interesting supposition and innuendo.