Greetings.
As I wrote in my introductory thread, I joined this board in order to get support in the face of ongoing attacks from Christians. It was a particularly vicious attack the weekend I joined that prompted my first post. Then on my second day here... Well, you know that story.
If I don't talk about what Christians did in the past and what they are doing to me now, then I am cheating myself. I have nowhere else to tell my story. I am all for socializing and having a mostly 'feel good' board, and I will gladly continue to do whatever I can to support others here. But I am afraid that if I follow my original aim I may be inviting trouble--and I may lose any positive karma I have built up in my short stay here.
For these reasons, I need to ask, before I take any action, if it is considered appropriate and in good taste for a topic in which there will be almost nothing positive about Christians as I share my personal story. There are Christians on the board, and while I cannot understand what they are doing here, I realize I need to respect them the way I would anyone else here. But that could present a problem, as respecting them could mean editing myself and watering down events that are quite painful for me. If I have to water them down, the topic is not worth posting.
So... Is there a section here where such a topic can be started? If so, where is it? And if so, should I post a warning for Christians at the beginning of post one, urging them not to read the topic since they might find it offensive?
If this board is not the place for that--which I can understand and respect--can someone direct me to a board that is more appropriate?
As a Christian, if you have complaints about Christians, you should be able to express them. On behalf of Christians, I apologize to you for whatever evil they/we have done. As with all stories, yours should be told.
The "Life as an Atheist" section seems appropriate.
This forum is for you to discuss openly your atheism and experiences as an Atheist.
Hopefully you will get much support, you may get people criticising your generalisations and you may get a Christian or two offended, but who cares...
There is no reason for you not to use this forum to discuses any such abuse. However, be warned that while you will receive lots of support here you may not like all that you hear.
I'd say that Stevil is correct: the "Life As An Atheist" subsection (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?board=53.0) would be the right place to talk about your experiences with Christians.
I'm writing as a member here, but not as a member of staff. I hesitate to speak on behalf of the staff and management of this site without having previously discussed this issue, but I think that generally the staff here would agree with the following:
The Christians who are currently members of this site are not fundamentalist; I would describe them as moderate. My understanding is that you aren't aiming your posts at them. As well, your intention is not to attack Christianity, but rather to describe your experience with Christians, and the feelings and thoughts which have resulted from those experiences.
It's true that some of the things posted here over the years have offended some of our Christian members, but offending Christians certainly isn't the objective of this place. As I said, it seems to me that offending Christians is not the motivation for your writing, so I don't see any reason you can't write about your experiences. I understand that what you say may offend Christians, and that it may be unavoidable; I think that your idea of posting a warning sounds reasonable.
Though things we say and images we post may on occasion offend some Christians, I don't endorse a "who cares" approach. While I don't think that Stevil intended that to mean "anything goes," somebody might construe it as such.
Quote from: Recusant on July 21, 2012, 05:33:54 AM
I don't endorse a "who cares" approach. While I don't think that Stevil intended that to mean "anything goes," somebody might construe it as such.
LOL,
You seem sincere in your desire to discuss your experiences, they are your experiences and I assume you will tell the truth to this regard. I also assume you won't get personal with attacks towards specific forum members and I assume any generalisations or emotion in your posts will be with regards to your current state of being and understanding. To this regard i am saying "who cares", you can't be overly worried about offending someone, it is sometimes unavoidable. Just be open, honest and sincere.
This is an atheist forum, you can "get away" with open honest atheist discussion here, which may otherwise turn into a flame war if had on a theist forum.
My only real suggestion is to not be too detered or defensive if a Christian member does say something you feel is untoward. You might be trigger happy at the moment based on your current state after spilling your self into this thread(I don't know). But if you feel a Christian member is crossing a line, I would suggest taking a deep breath and maybe discussing it with a forum moderator via Personal Message before getting into an argument, in your thread, otherwise it can quickly derail what you are setting out to acheive with your thread.
Quote from: Stevil on July 21, 2012, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: Recusant on July 21, 2012, 05:33:54 AM
I don't endorse a "who cares" approach. While I don't think that Stevil intended that to mean "anything goes," somebody might construe it as such.
LOL,
You seem sincere in your desire to discuss your experiences, they are your experiences and I assume you will tell the truth to this regard. I also assume you won't get personal with attacks towards specific forum members and I assume any generalisations or emotion in your posts will be with regards to your current state of being and understanding. To this regard i am saying "who cares", you can't be overly worried about offending someone, it is sometimes unavoidable. Just be open, honest and sincere.
This is an atheist forum, you can "get away" with open honest atheist discussion here, which may otherwise turn into a flame war if had on a theist forum.
My only real suggestion is to not be too detered or defensive if a Christian member does say something you feel is untoward. You might be trigger happy at the moment based on your current state after spilling your self into this thread(I don't know). But if you feel a Christian member is crossing a line, I would suggest taking a deep breath and maybe discussing it with a forum moderator via Personal Message before getting into an argument, in your thread, otherwise it can quickly derail what you are setting out to acheive with your thread.
There is a difference between being personally offensive and espousing views which offend other people's sensibilities. Free speech inevitably implies that some people will voice sentiments which others may find objectionable, even abhorrent. In that context, why should anyone care?
I agree, you should be able to express your experiences and opinions openly as long as you aren't just going out of your way to offend the Christian members of the board.
TWC
If what you tell us is the truth and deals with the behaviour of individuals towards you then you may reveal and discuss whatever you like without fear of retribution from the staff or other members, Christian or not. You may also speculate and express opinions about why those individuals did what they did because they were Christian. The one thing you should not do is transfer your feelings of dislike to those individuals that have hurt you to the Christians on this forum, because they as individuals have done you no harm.
Does that make sense?
Chris
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 21, 2012, 05:09:16 AM
There is no reason for you not to use this forum to discuses any such abuse. However, be warned that while you will receive lots of support here you may not like all that you hear.
I'd like to re-emphasize what Mark wrote. Most, if not all, the atheists here have had our share of run-ins with Xtians and we can certainly understand others feelings about going thru the same. On the other hand, if you kinda asked for it, or had it coming, you will be told that. Not saying that you did, but since we all know there are at least two sides to every story it's something to consider.
There have been a lot of people here who have talked about their negative experiences with religious people, or religion in general. And one of the major attraction of this forum, at least for me, was to blow off some steam about that. I originally joined after a US State Department employee tried to pressure my wife into saying "under God" as part of her citizenship oath. Pissed me off to no end.
Please share your story if you feel comfortable with it. The Christians who are on this forum are, I feel, understanding that many of us are here due to negative experiences with religious folks.
Thank you, everyone, for these responses.
I now have to think very carefully about how to approach this. I want to spend time on it, but right now I am in the middle of directing students on projects and also recording sound files for them (the bulk of my on line time right now plus a huge chunk of my time at work). I need to force myself onto my bike before I sleep, but that, I believe, will be the last of my energy. As much as I want to start tonight, it is just not possible,
I also have to make my story long enough to say what I want it to say but short enough so that people will read it. (You may think some of my posts have been long, but I am sure anyone who knows me in real life would question why I kept them so short... for me, that is. Again, I want people to read them, and I realize there is a limit to how much I can cram into a post...)
The "Life as an Atheist" section it is, then.
I am not concerned about atheists who say things I may not want to hear; I am, after all, looking for insight. I am also not concerned about civil Christians; if they have also been through abusive Christianity they may have good things to say. (While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
My concern is that it would be five years ago all over again, and Christians with agendas on an atheist board would be picking me apart once again while failing to hear my pain, failing to understand that my being gay is not up for debate, failing to comprehend that I have heard about Jesus all my life and have had quite enough, or failing to see that I write, either to myself or to others, to make sense of the world. As I tell my students, when I start to write I have only the vaguest idea what I will say; when I finish I have learned something about myself. When others comment I learn even more. But when others mock me, I shut down and no more writing and learning is possible.
Now the part I don't tell students. When I am mocked I get very aggressive. I have a long history of being mocked by extended family, schoolmates and, especially, Christians. Where the church should have been my refuge, it was just another place to be told again and again how worthless I was and how undeserving of Jesus' love I was. Don't even get me started on what happened when I came out of the closet.
How do I post without attacking Christianity? I won't attack the people on this board, nor will I attack my parents, sister and friends who are still trapped in that religion--but if I am to speak honestly, to discuss my experience as an atheist, I must take Christianity to task. I refer to its us vs. them mentality, its lip service to love while fostering hate, its twisting of dynamic children into broken adults... And how all this affected me. I believe that Christians do what they do because they are Christian and are following a book I have found hateful since I was a child.
To be silent is to give Christianity a Get Out of Jail Free Card, and I for one don't subscribe to the tiresome Christian argument about "True Christians" vs. "Pharisees" and how only people who were not "True Christians" hurt me. I have heard this same argument from Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, Liberals, Moderates... Anyone they don't agree with is not a "True Christian" since one size fits all. Everyone from Fred Phelps to John Shelby Spong could conceivably use this argument, so what does it really mean?
I just don't see "True Christians"; rather, I see some people who are good people and are also Christian--just as I see some people who are good people and also atheists, Hindus, or Wiccans. Or subscribers to John Locke's philosophy. Or practitioners of Cognitive Behavior Therapy. Or martial artists.
Now you see why I am asking questions before going ahead and writing. This is the way I analyze what was done to me, and I need to know if it is too offensive for this board.
I once had a manager that advised me it is better to ask forgiveness that it is to ask permission.
Asking permission can cripple progress, there needs to be a level of trust given to people, you won't always get it right, but generally you will, over time you will learn from your mistakes.
I am sure the Forum Moderators will give you plenty of feedback if necessary and they generally only progress to official warnings and banning if their feedback is frequently and blatantly ignored.
If you are really worried you could PM your post to one of them first and see what they think. I wouldn't recommend this as a common practice as it borders on censorship, but if you are really worried, it is an option. Otherwise, don't worry about it, just post what you would like and expect the moderators to comment if they have any issues with it. Before long you will understand how the rules of this forum are applied.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 22, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
(While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
While I'm sure he won't take your misperception the wrong the way, I'm as certain as I can be in an online community that Bruce Burleson is a man.
TWC
You are perfectly at liberty to attack the ideals, tenants and dogma's of any Institutionalised Superstition (aka Religion). An idea has no feelings to hurt and cannot take offence. If people take offence because an abstract idea is being attacked that is their problem and not yours.
Chris
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on July 22, 2012, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 22, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
(While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
While I'm sure he won't take your misperception the wrong the way, I'm as certain as I can be in an online community that Bruce Burleson is a man.
That was before the operation.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 22, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
Thank you, everyone, for these responses.
I now have to think very carefully about how to approach this. I want to spend time on it, but right now I am in the middle of directing students on projects and also recording sound files for them (the bulk of my on line time right now plus a huge chunk of my time at work). I need to force myself onto my bike before I sleep, but that, I believe, will be the last of my energy. As much as I want to start tonight, it is just not possible,
I also have to make my story long enough to say what I want it to say but short enough so that people will read it. (You may think some of my posts have been long, but I am sure anyone who knows me in real life would question why I kept them so short... for me, that is. Again, I want people to read them, and I realize there is a limit to how much I can cram into a post...)
The "Life as an Atheist" section it is, then.
I am not concerned about atheists who say things I may not want to hear; I am, after all, looking for insight. I am also not concerned about civil Christians; if they have also been through abusive Christianity they may have good things to say. (While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
My concern is that it would be five years ago all over again, and Christians with agendas on an atheist board would be picking me apart once again while failing to hear my pain, failing to understand that my being gay is not up for debate, failing to comprehend that I have heard about Jesus all my life and have had quite enough, or failing to see that I write, either to myself or to others, to make sense of the world. As I tell my students, when I start to write I have only the vaguest idea what I will say; when I finish I have learned something about myself. When others comment I learn even more. But when others mock me, I shut down and no more writing and learning is possible.
Now the part I don't tell students. When I am mocked I get very aggressive. I have a long history of being mocked by extended family, schoolmates and, especially, Christians. Where the church should have been my refuge, it was just another place to be told again and again how worthless I was and how undeserving of Jesus' love I was. Don't even get me started on what happened when I came out of the closet.
How do I post without attacking Christianity? I won't attack the people on this board, nor will I attack my parents, sister and friends who are still trapped in that religion--but if I am to speak honestly, to discuss my experience as an atheist, I must take Christianity to task. I refer to its us vs. them mentality, its lip service to love while fostering hate, its twisting of dynamic children into broken adults... And how all this affected me. I believe that Christians do what they do because they are Christian and are following a book I have found hateful since I was a child.
To be silent is to give Christianity a Get Out of Jail Free Card, and I for one don't subscribe to the tiresome Christian argument about "True Christians" vs. "Pharisees" and how only people who were not "True Christians" hurt me. I have heard this same argument from Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, Liberals, Moderates... Anyone they don't agree with is not a "True Christian" since one size fits all. Everyone from Fred Phelps to John Shelby Spong could conceivably use this argument, so what does it really mean?
I just don't see "True Christians"; rather, I see some people who are good people and are also Christian--just as I see some people who are good people and also atheists, Hindus, or Wiccans. Or subscribers to John Locke's philosophy. Or practitioners of Cognitive Behavior Therapy. Or martial artists.
Now you see why I am asking questions before going ahead and writing. This is the way I analyze what was done to me, and I need to know if it is too offensive for this board.
Why not just say what you think? Your stance strikes me as less censorious towards Christianity than that of some members here who certainly suffer no opprobrium for stating their opinions.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on July 22, 2012, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 22, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
(While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
While I'm sure he won't take your misperception the wrong the way, I'm as certain as I can be in an online community that Bruce Burleson is a man.
Yes, while my masculinity is certainly in decline, I still maintain a Y chromosome and the requisite mechanical parts. Furthermore, I would make a God-awful ugly woman. If WalCon was mislead by my avatar, that's my wife and oldest granddaughter.
Quote from: En_Route on July 22, 2012, 01:39:42 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on July 22, 2012, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 22, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
(While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
While I'm sure he won't take your misperception the wrong the way, I'm as certain as I can be in an online community that Bruce Burleson is a man.
That was before the operation.
At this point, I don't think that any operation will help me.
Back to the subject of the OP, Christians, like all humans, are certainly capable of doing nasty things. Various Christians have enslaved blacks, burned non-believers and "witches" at the stake, killed other Christians who had slightly different doctrines, stolen from their own churches, made unjust war on other peoples, committed adultery against their spouses, and generally failed to love as Christ commanded. So our history is pretty much fair game for anyone.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 22, 2012, 01:39:42 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on July 22, 2012, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 22, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
(While I do not know Ecurb Noselrub apart from this thread and my having seen that she also likes Mrs. Slocombe, she would seem to be one.)
While I'm sure he won't take your misperception the wrong the way, I'm as certain as I can be in an online community that Bruce Burleson is a man.
That was before the operation.
At this point, I don't think that any operation will help me.
Ditto. And they have tried their best.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 22, 2012, 02:00:17 PM
Back to the subject of the OP, Christians, like all humans, are certainly capable of doing nasty things. Various Christians have enslaved blacks, burned non-believers and "witches" at the stake, killed other Christians who had slightly different doctrines, stolen from their own churches, made unjust war on other peoples, committed adultery against their spouses, and generally failed to love as Christ commanded. So our history is pretty much fair game for anyone.
All true. Which doesn't mean that there aren't some variants of Christianity whose effects are likely to add to the sum of human happiness, slippery concept as that may be. There are certainly some elements in the alleged teachings of Christ which are conducive to human beings' better treatment of each other, most of which he was not the first to expound. To borrow an aperçu delivered by someone else speaking of another work, the Bible is both original and insightful; unfortunately, what is insightful is not generally original and what is original is not generally insightful.
Quote from: En_Route on July 22, 2012, 02:37:44 PM
All true. Which doesn't mean that there aren't some variants of Christianity whose effects are likely to add to the sum of human happiness, slippery concept as that may be. There are certainly some elements in the alleged teachings of Christ which are conducive to human beings' better treatment of each other, most of which he was not the first to expound. To borrow an aperçu delivered by someone else speaking of another work, the Bible is both original and insightful; unfortunately, what is insightful is not generally original and what is original is not generally insightful.
The actual "new commandment" of Christ was "to love one another
as I have loved you." I believe that the last part, which presents Jesus as the example of love, is both original and insightful. Others before him spoke of love, but I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that anyone set himself up as
the example of love. That, combined with the dual ideas of the messiah being willing to lay down his life for others as an act of love and then conquering death, constitutes the principal contribution of Christianity, IMHO. Loving as Christ loved is a pretty high ideal that has inspired many to rise above their baser instincts.
I'm not sure about the whole "willing to lay down his life for others" bit.
If Jesus did exist, he died merely because he was human. Just like the rest of us he had no choice.
He was going to die at some stage.
He did not turn himself in, Judas supposedly did that without his consent.
He did not asked to be killed on behalf of humanity. He did not die in order to save anyone.
He was taken into custody and put to death as I assume many others suffered that same fate under the Roman Empire.
If he did come back from the dead, then again his death was no sacrifice.
I don't understand the joy Christians get from the story of the death of their human-god, If you accept his death as payment for your sins, I find this appalling. As a responsible adult I stand by my actions.
Well, I didn't expect anyone to agree. Enough derail, this is about WalCon telling us about his experiences. He needs to be the next one to speak.
I assume he is going to start a new thread in the "Life as an Atheist" section, when he is ready.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 23, 2012, 02:41:52 AM
Well, I didn't expect anyone to agree. Enough derail, this is about WalCon telling us about his experiences. He needs to be the next one to speak.
I just want to say how much I respect that. I had actually wanted to respond to your post on Jesus, but I thought better of it since you have been kind to me and I wanted to return the favor. Of course, you too should say what you believe--but we should both keep it civil.
Yes, I did think I was talking to the woman in the avatar (the older one). Your screen name struck me as Harry Potterish, and for some reason it sounds like a Hogwarts witch's name. (This is a compliment, as I adore Harry. I cannot enjoy
...Narnia since it was forced on me with a strict Christian interpretation when I was a kid (a gift from my counsin the minister). While C.S. Lewis is not someone I care for too much, I doubt that even he would have wanted his stories to be theology. Allusions to Christianity (especially with Aslan), yes, but not theology. I don't care for Tolkien either since I associate him with C.S. Lewis and other unpleasant things. But Harry Potter allows me to live in that world common fantasy world, and as I often tell my students I would give J.K. Rowling a big kiss for making children who otherwise hated books --want!!!-- to read if I ever met her.
A number of my students are also Harry Potter fans, although, sadly, in South Korea the series is considered "girls' books." Some guys have to read it in secret. Fortunately, that stigma is not attached to the series in other countries (to my knowledge).
Quote from: Stevil on July 23, 2012, 04:14:53 AM
I assume he is going to start a new thread in the "Life as an Atheist" section, when he is ready.
The key indeed being "when he is ready."
And also... When he does not have a million students doing presentations... In real life I also do voice overs, and so I lend my voice to my ESL students by recording sound files of their presentations so they can hear native pronunciation and intonation. This is, of course, gratis, as I don't charge students--but one time one of them brought me business by having me read record the English translations of her friend's (an established Japanese poet's) work.
If I could, I would start now... But since I have to get up to work in five and a half hours, it is time to turn the lights off...
Quote from: En_Route on July 22, 2012, 01:45:32 PM
Why not just say what you think? Your stance strikes me as less censorious towards Christianity than that of some members here who certainly suffer no opprobrium for stating their opinions.
Thank you for the support! :) I know I can be divise and get ugly, and that is something I always struggle against. It isn't who I want to be here. That is why I need to be careful.
Quote from: Stevil on July 22, 2012, 05:42:18 AM
I once had a manager that advised me it is better to ask forgiveness that it is to ask permission.
Love that quote. But as a teacher who must be PC in his very, very diverse classroom, it is hard for me to apply that. Will try.
Quote from: Tank on July 22, 2012, 08:18:59 AM
TWC
You are perfectly at liberty to attack the ideals, tenants and dogma's of any Institutionalised Superstition (aka Religion). An idea has no feelings to hurt and cannot take offence. If people take offence because an abstract idea is being attacked that is their problem and not yours.
Chris
Very sound advice. I guess I am just scared because many Christians I know feel saying anything negative about the religion is tantamount to attacking them. (And let me be honest... I have attacked out of frustration.)
I am not as much of a scaredy cat as I am coming off. It will all make sense when I figure out what I am going to say and post it.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 23, 2012, 05:56:05 AM
Quote from: Stevil on July 22, 2012, 05:42:18 AM
I once had a manager that advised me it is better to ask forgiveness that it is to ask permission.
Love that quote. But as a teacher who must be PC in his very, very diverse classroom, it is hard for me to apply that. Will try.
I don,to think that adage works in all contexts. There are taboos that you cannot break and Higher Education is a politically correct minefield. Certainly in the UK, where the pretence has to be sustained that the vast expansion of intake without corresponding increase in resources has not impacted adversely on the quality of HE, there is a pervasive intellectual dishonesty which you expose at your utmost peril.
Right. Not to mention that not every kid is degree material.
Quote from: OldGit on July 23, 2012, 01:16:48 PM
Right. Not to mention that not every kid is degree material.
That has increased drop- out rates, but more insidiously has led to an almost universal dilution of standards.
Allied to this, the league tables which are produced factor in the classes of degree which students achieve. This is a variable which is largely within the control of the Universities themselves. So despite the fall in entry requirements, the number of first class and upper second degrees has increased exponentially- exactly the reverse of what one might expect if standards were being held constant.
Speaking as a drop-out, not everybody has all that faith in school systems. Can actually be more of a hinderance than anything.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 25, 2012, 09:24:22 AM
Speaking as a drop-out, not everybody has all that faith in school systems. Can actually be more of a hinderance than anything.
People drop out for a number of reasons and it is by no means a reflection on their capabilities. I was directing my temarks at a system which is based on the premise that maximising the number of people in HE is in itself a good thing and which therefore does not screen out large numbers of people who are completely unsuited to it and are virtually bound to fail. What the point, purpose and value of HE is, or should be, is a matter of debate.
Quote from: En_Route on July 25, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
I was directing my temarks at a system which is based on the premise that maximising the number of people in HE is in itself a good thing and which therefore does not screen out large numbers of people who are completely unsuited to it and are virtually bound to fail. What the point, purpose and value of HE is, or should be, is a matter of debate.
I agree with that. We have the same problem around these parts. Private colleges and universities are generally considered to be worse in terms of quality, but they absorb the loads of people who feel that they have to have a degree to get a job. Entrance exams are a joke and they're clearly just looking to farm a lot of students for their money. It's partly the governments fault, they make it seem necessary, as you can't have some kinds of jobs without some degree, even if a a totally unrelated (go figure ::) ) or crappy one. What's bound to happen is over qualified people having to struggle for a vacancy as a cashier at McDonald's whereas probably the smarter ones will learn a trade that nobody really wants and have virtually no competition whatsoever.
Universities are very big business. If I had money I would probably open one. ;D
Quote from: En_Route on July 25, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 25, 2012, 09:24:22 AM
Speaking as a drop-out, not everybody has all that faith in school systems. Can actually be more of a hinderance than anything.
People drop out for a number of reasons and it is by no means a reflection on their capabilities. I was directing my temarks at a system which is based on the premise that maximising the number of people in HE is in itself a good thing and which therefore does not screen out large numbers of people who are completely unsuited to it and are virtually bound to fail. What the point, purpose and value of HE is, or should be, is a matter of debate.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 25, 2012, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 25, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
I was directing my temarks at a system which is based on the premise that maximising the number of people in HE is in itself a good thing and which therefore does not screen out large numbers of people who are completely unsuited to it and are virtually bound to fail. What the point, purpose and value of HE is, or should be, is a matter of debate.
I agree with that. We have the same problem around these parts. Private colleges and universities are generally considered to be worse in terms of quality, but they absorb the loads of people who feel that they have to have a degree to get a job. Entrance exams are a joke and they're clearly just looking to farm a lot of students for their money. It's partly the governments fault, they make it seem necessary, as you can't have some kinds of jobs without some degree, even if a a totally unrelated (go figure ::) ) or crappy one. What's bound to happen is over qualified people having to struggle for a vacancy as a cashier at McDonald's whereas probably the smarter ones will learn a trade that nobody really wants and have virtually no competition whatsoever.
Universities are very big business. If I had money I would probably open one. ;D
Although I teach in a university, I agree with both
En_Route and
xSilverPhinx. There is so much wrong with higher education, and it really depresses me. I often have to find a private spot away from snooping ears to give sound advice to students I care about.
I do not look down on someone who drops out or decides academic life is not for him or her. I also know that my graduate degree does not make me a superior person, for there are many people who have never gone to university but are smarter or more successful (or both) than I am. I am an academic because I love teaching and learning and because a university is the place I feel the most comfortable. No more, no less.
Here is the short, classic 1975 article "School vs. Education" by Russell Baker. It makes my skin crawl because it is everything I, an idealist at heart, don't want education to be but know it really is. http://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/irene.keliher/engl1301/handouts-worksheets-given-in-class/school-vs.-education-article-for-mon.s-hw (http://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/irene.keliher/engl1301/handouts-worksheets-given-in-class/school-vs.-education-article-for-mon.s-hw)//
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on July 23, 2012, 05:58:22 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 22, 2012, 08:18:59 AM
TWC
You are perfectly at liberty to attack the ideals, tenants and dogma's of any Institutionalised Superstition (aka Religion). An idea has no feelings to hurt and cannot take offence. If people take offence because an abstract idea is being attacked that is their problem and not yours.
Chris
Very sound advice. I guess I am just scared because many Christians I know feel saying anything negative about the religion is tantamount to attacking them. (And let me be honest... I have attacked out of frustration.)
I am not as much of a scaredy cat as I am coming off. It will all make sense when I figure out what I am going to say and post it.
Respect the persons, riddicule the dogma?
No one has the right to not have their favourite beliefs critizised, not even christies...
Stay off the personal attacks and you should be fine.
Again, thank you to all who have advised me there. Much appreciated.
I have not forgotten about the promised bio of my religious past and how its negative effects continue today. I have actually started it several times, but I keep getting angry or depressed when I work on it. Also, it's not easy knowing I will be revealing such a personal thing to people I barely know as Internet names, let alone people who are not atheists. It will take a while, but I hope to have it written and posted before long. Sorry for the ridiculously long delay.
That's okay, you don't owe us anything. Only share what you feel comfortable sharing. :)
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 02, 2012, 01:50:02 AM
Again, thank you to all who have advised me there. Much appreciated.
I have not forgotten about the promised bio of my religious past and how its negative effects continue today. I have actually started it several times, but I keep getting angry or depressed when I work on it. Also, it's not easy knowing I will be revealing such a personal thing to people I barely know as Internet names, let alone people who are not atheists. It will take a while, but I hope to have it written and posted before long. Sorry for the ridiculously long delay.
Make sure you have plenty of time on your hands because possibly people might have lots of questions for you, IDK how it is going to go down. But sometimes it can be overwhelming especially if you have limited time.
If you want to put faces to the internet names then check out the Icons thread (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8695.0).
I, for one, am eager to hear your story. Even as a Christian, I can't imagine that I'll be offended. There are good Christians and bad Christians, just as there are good atheists and bad atheists, and we all have different experiences, and we all affect others in different ways. Who here can claim that they have never done anything bad or wrong, or that they have never hurt anyone else? Certainly not I.
Everyone's story has value.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 02, 2012, 01:50:02 AM
Again, thank you to all who have advised me there. Much appreciated.
I have not forgotten about the promised bio of my religious past and how its negative effects continue today. I have actually started it several times, but I keep getting angry or depressed when I work on it. Also, it's not easy knowing I will be revealing such a personal thing to people I barely know as Internet names, let alone people who are not atheists. It will take a while, but I hope to have it written and posted before long. Sorry for the ridiculously long delay.
Take your time. I think you can be assured of a sympathetic and supportive hearing.
Once again, thank you to everyone.
I have finally done it: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=10364.0