Religious people everywhere

[notself]

America is getting increasingly grim when it comes to religion... If my husband and I were younger, I think we would emigrate to Canada.

And increase the IQ of both countries in one fell swoop!  :eek:

[The Magic Pudding]

Are you saying that the IQ of America would increase if I left?  

I don't know if Tank has thought this out.
I only know of one use of this expression.  This was by a New Zealand Prime Minister, describing citizens moving to Australia.
The meaning being only the stupidest New Zealanders would move to Aus, but they would be smarter than the average Australian.

[George]

Notself and Kylysa - Where you live sounds terrible!

Reminded me of that song from athists experience, I'm gonna punch you in the head for Jesus!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUzGm-PwZQw

When I was at school it'd be more likely to be the religeious ones who'd get bullied for their beliefs. Come to think of it I can't actually remember coming across any actively religeous kids at my school. Sounds like a different world over there!

Gonna come and 'do' America one day as I've never been, sounds like I'll have to be careful, I can imagine myself putting my foot in it left, right and centre!

[notself]

Are you saying that the IQ of America would increase if I left?  

[notself]

Notself and Kylysa - Where you live sounds terrible!

Reminded me of that song from athists experience, I'm gonna punch you in the head for Jesus!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUzGm-PwZQw

When I was at school it'd be more likely to be the religious ones who'd get bullied for their beliefs. Come to think of it I can't actually remember coming across any actively religious kids at my school. Sounds like a different world over there!

Gonna come and 'do' America one day as I've never been, sounds like I'll have to be careful, I can imagine myself putting my foot in it left, right and centre!

Atheists joke about fundamentalist Christians but they are no joke.  This young man I know is a fundamentalist Christian and just got elected to Justice of the Peace for his district.  The office itself is no big deal but his advisers and backers for his campaign are located 3 hours away in Little Rock.  These older politicians are grooming this kid to be the next generation of far right politicians.  This is part of a long range plan to turn the USA into a Christian theocracy that accepts Intelligent Design as science.  I know this sounds unbelievable but the following document was produced (unintentionally) in response to a subpoena in the Kitzmiller case.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller ... _documents
This document is called the Wedge Strategy.  http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism. This is precisely our strategy. If we view the predominant materialistic science as a giant tree, our strategy is intended to function as a "wedge" that, while relatively small, can split the trunk when applied at its weakest points. The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip ]ohnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work. We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

I live in Arkansas because this is where my extended family is.

[karadan]

Such a radical shift in the political landscape will change a great deal of things in the US if the religious right are to carry on with their anti-scientific agenda. If unchecked (I'm not sure how much of it will be) I think various areas of the country becoming so polarised will cause new borders to be created. Maybe even new countries. If the christians are really trying to eradicate 'scientific materialism', two things will happen; people who make money will continue to find ways to do so and the people who want to continue their way of life will continue to find ways to do so. This means mass migrations of moderate people to the coasts and right wingers to the bible belts. One thing is for sure, religious people turning their backs on scientific materialism will quickly find out how much money that used to net them.

I don't believe the christians can win this one, though. I consider the rabid way with which christianity is acting right now to be its last ditch effort for total domination. It is reacting to the challenges to its foundations, in most part, by the inception of the internet. It is no longer able to keep enclaves of people 100% isolated from the rest of humanity like it used to. People in the most staunchly christian areas now have access to other ideas and these ideas are empowering a new generation of people to question what they've been force-fed. I think they also underestimate how many people are atheist, agnostic and moderately christian in the country. In reality, I think the numbers would make them choke on their grits.

There are too many intelligent people in the US to let anything untoward happen to the constitution, or so I hope.

[Tank]

America is getting increasingly grim when it comes to religion... If my husband and I were younger, I think we would emigrate to Canada.

And increase the IQ of both countries in one fell swoop!  :eek:

lol  I got that wrong. The IQ of America would go down and the IQ of Canada would go up. I was paraphrasing (incorrectly) a comment of the New Zealand Prime minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_humour

Australians are the butt of Kiwi humour (and vice versa) â€" even at the highest diplomatic level. During the 1980s, then Prime Minister of New Zealand Robert Muldoon was asked about the increasing exodus of New Zealanders leaving the country to work in Australia. His comment was that by doing so, they were raising the average IQ of both countries. The joke derives from the Will Rogers phenomenon.

A more recent Prime Minister commented that the New Zealand tourists visiting Bondi Beach had the same effect.

My Bad notself, I managed to get the intent of my post 180 degrees about face!

[Tank]

Are you saying that the IQ of America would increase if I left?  

I don't know if Tank has thought this out.
I only know of one use of this expression.  This was by a New Zealand Prime Minister, describing citizens moving to Australia.
The meaning being only the stupidest New Zealanders would move to Aus, but they would be smarter than the average Australian.

Spot on TMP!

[Tank]

I don't believe the christians can win this one, though. I consider the rabid way with which christianity is acting right now to be its last ditch effort for total domination. It is reacting to the challenges to its foundations, in most part, by the inception of the internet. It is no longer able to keep enclaves of people 100% isolated from the rest of humanity like it used to. People in the most staunchly christian areas now have access to other ideas and these ideas are empowering a new generation of people to question what they've been force-fed. I think they also underestimate how many people are atheist, agnostic and moderately christian in the country. In reality, I think the numbers would make them choke on their grits.

There are too many intelligent people in the US to let anything untoward happen to the constitution, or so I hope.

I think your observation about the Internet allowing the spread of information is very pertinent here. However, the Internet is indiscriminate about what information it spreads. I would cite Answers In Genesis and the Discovery Institute as just two examples of professional dis-information funded by elements of the Christian world. The Internet is open to exploitation by any individual or group, it's the nature of the beast.

However, I would agree with you that the internet, and forums just like this one, have given a group and community to free-thinkers/humanists/atheists that could never have existed before. The internet has given access to differing opinion (to a Christian opinion) in a way previously unknown in it's scope and potential penetration of previously closed societies.

Now if the Christian right try to get control of the information on the Internet in America in the way the Chinese currently have in China then I would say America would face their second civil war. It would be over free access to information.

So I'm not sure that it is a foregone conclusion that freethinking/humanism/atheism will win out in the end, if for no other reason than Christianity is, at the end of the day, an appeal to the emotions, it is inclusive, it requires little intellectual effort to join, it requires no individual moral code on the part of its members, it's the easy way out. The alternative asks people to stand up and be counted as responsible individuals, it requires one to go against the majority view, it requires one to hold/defend views more sophisticated than 'God do it!', it's not the easy way out.

The final outcome of The Enlightenment is still, in my opinion, in the balance and will be until the last Church/Mosque/Temple is voluntarily turned into a museum to humanities collective love of superstition, and as that will probably never happen I don't think there will ever be a 'winner', just a change in the balance in world views.

[The Magic Pudding]

Could we arrange a B-Ark to take all the faithfull to heaven?

[Tank]

Could we arrange a B-Ark to take all the faithfull to heaven?

Been done, it's called The Rapture.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Gonna come and 'do' America one day as I've never been, sounds like I'll have to be careful, I can imagine myself putting my foot in it left, right and centre!

It depends on where you are and such.  The vast majority here don't care what you believe so long as you keep it to yourself.  There's a loud minority who will preach publicly.

I've found that simply saying "I don't share your faith" is a polite yet effective way of getting across the point to get  your religion out of my face, but that was in D/FW or here in SoCal, not Bumpkin, Arkansas.

[karadan]

I think your observation about the Internet allowing the spread of information is very pertinent here. However, the Internet is indiscriminate about what information it spreads. I would cite Answers In Genesis and the Discovery Institute as just two examples of professional dis-information funded by elements of the Christian world. The Internet is open to exploitation by any individual or group, it's the nature of the beast.

However, I would agree with you that the internet, and forums just like this one, have given a group and community to free-thinkers/humanists/atheists that could never have existed before. The internet has given access to differing opinion (to a Christian opinion) in a way previously unknown in it's scope and potential penetration of previously closed societies.

Now if the Christian right try to get control of the information on the Internet in America in the way the Chinese currently have in China then I would say America would face their second civil war. It would be over free access to information.

So I'm not sure that it is a foregone conclusion that freethinking/humanism/atheism will win out in the end, if for no other reason than Christianity is, at the end of the day, an appeal to the emotions, it is inclusive, it requires little intellectual effort to join, it requires no individual moral code on the part of its members, it's the easy way out. The alternative asks people to stand up and be counted as responsible individuals, it requires one to go against the majority view, it requires one to hold/defend views more sophisticated than 'God do it!', it's not the easy way out.

The final outcome of The Enlightenment is still, in my opinion, in the balance and will be until the last Church/Mosque/Temple is voluntarily turned into a museum to humanities collective love of superstition, and as that will probably never happen I don't think there will ever be a 'winner', just a change in the balance in world views.

Of course, they can play the internet game too, but for a time in the US, it wasn't even possible to hear a dissenting view on religion. Christianity had such a hold over all and every media type that it was all people knew. To have such blanket saturation is impossible these days, even if they retort with the kind of BS like the creationist institute. Now, if anyone grows a seed of doubt in their heads, all they need to do is log on and type atheism into :yay:

I totally agree with you about the civil war. Last time opinion was so divided in the US, a civil war happened.
If the religious far right manage to get enough power, i'm sure we'll see more and more instances of these leaders putting god before constitution. There will have to be a point where someone says enough is enough. I just hope by that point someone like palin isn't in power, with their hand hovering over a launch button.

[karadan]

Oh, by the way, i found this rather lovely piece written by a theist on the boston.com website http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/0 ... riage.html about the recent overturning of prop 8.

I am a Christian. I believe strongly that the common interpretation of what the Bible says about homosexuality is wrong, and that it is based on mistranslation and cultural misinterpretation of the original text. When read with understanding of the original language, the culture of the time, the intent of the author, and a larger theological perspective there is no real Biblical support for condemning homosexual relationships on the basis of gender alone. The Bible is far more concerned with promiscuity and divorce, frankly.

That said, none of that matters because at least in the U.S. our laws are not dictated by the Bible or the beliefs of any religion. It doesn't matter what you think is religiously right or wrong. The question we ask when we make a law for or against something is whether the act in question causes harm to others, restricts the freedom of others, or endangers the fabric of society or the safety of the country as a whole.

I know a lot of people FEEL like homosexuality and gay marriage hurt others, but all the empirical evidence we have shows otherwise. There is objective harm harm to straight marriages, there is no harm to children involved, there is no public healthy risk. All arguments other than "the Bible says" and "I just think it's wrong" fail the test of law. And denying marriage restricts freedoms of one segment of the population over another. If you don't like the Constitution, move.


Goes to show there are lots of awesome theists out there.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Of course, they can play the internet game too, but for a time in the US, it wasn't even possible to hear a dissenting view on religion. Christianity had such a hold over all and every media type that it was all people knew. To have such blanket saturation is impossible these days, even if they retort with the kind of BS like the creationist institute. Now, if anyone grows a seed of doubt in their heads, all they need to do is log on and type atheism into :yay:

I totally agree with you about the civil war. Last time opinion was so divided in the US, a civil war happened.
If the religious far right manage to get enough power, i'm sure we'll see more and more instances of these leaders putting god before constitution. There will have to be a point where someone says enough is enough. I just hope by that point someone like palin isn't in power, with their hand hovering over a launch button.

The religious right shot its bolt in the last ten years.  It will stay around, but be politically hamstrung  by the Bush legacy: two undeclared wars, disappearing middle class, economic misery, and a giant expansion of the national debt.

It's the runt of the litter that cries the loudest.