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Church-State Protesting

Started by Gawen, August 10, 2011, 12:44:16 AM

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Gawen

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2011, 09:48:30 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 09, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
I want religion out of politics, and there's no valid counterpoint to that position.

I'll help you hold up a banner saying exactly this.
Honestly, AD, if I had the balls to do this, I'd be honoured to have you stand beside me. But I'll be the first to tell you, ashamedly, as a matter of fact, that I'm scared shitless to protest such a thing especially where I live.

However (humbly and meekly said), if Whitney has the courage, perhaps I can find inspiration through her?
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Whitney

Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 12:44:16 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2011, 09:48:30 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 09, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
I want religion out of politics, and there's no valid counterpoint to that position.

I'll help you hold up a banner saying exactly this.
Honestly, AD, if I had the balls to do this, I'd be honoured to have you stand beside me. But I'll be the first to tell you, ashamedly, as a matter of fact, that I'm scared shitless to protest such a thing especially where I live.

However (humbly and meekly said), if Whitney has the courage, perhaps I can find inspiration through her?

There is no courage needed...protesting church-state issues is perfectly safe even in Texas (as long as you aren't doing so in tiny town).  Metroplex Atheists is the main protest group in this area and they haven't had anyone harmed in their years of activity.  The Texas Freethought Convention takes an active role in supporting political causes of atheists and none of us on their contact page have gotten any threats nor has the convention been crashed.  I haven't had the ability to actually get myself to where they protests have occurred though as they have usually been in Austin.  I would have gone this past week but didn't find about the protest in Dallas till about half way through the day when it was going to be too hot (I don't handle the heat well) so I tweet protested instead. 

Now we do have problems with darwin-fish car emblems loosing legs and outed atheists having issues at school or work (though certainly not for everyone)...but no violence or anything that would make me concerned about safety.  I'm more concerned about crazy people from the internet deciding to track me down and that's only because I had an online moderator friend from another forum with a stalker so I probably am more concerned than I should be.

Gawen

Thanks Whitney.

I'm no protester or activist. The first and last protest I participated in was at San Diego in the mid 70's and that was due to partly curiosity and mostly peer pressure. I did go to a tea party last year out of curiosity. And I wrote a letter to Casper Weinberger in the early 80's.

I've never been one to have the spotlight on me; always preferring to be left alone. Sort of the live and let live mentality. But in this case I am divided, uncertain. I've always adhered to the separation of church and state. And I've known about the religious right in its small does throughout American history and it's culmination as a force to be reckoned with when it became solidified under Falwell and Robertson a little over 30 years ago. But way back then I didn't really know about Christian Reconstructionism and their more inflammatory and frankly frightening writings, and their apparent presence in the hate-filled, bigoted, and sometimes violent Christian Identity/militia/patriot movements.

After a review of Christian Identity/militia/patriot oriented websites one will see catchy phrases they've read from Christian Reconstructionist authors, or who echo what they have heard is "God's law."  These angry and spiteful people use Christian Reconstructionism or "God's law" as a justification for their hatred, as endorsement of violence, and as a means to fulfill their desire to be part of a new group that they dream will overturn society and rule the world as a mandate from God.

And make no mistake about it; any group that says it wants to impose Old Testament law on society is going to be advocating some pretty nasty, violent things. The Old Testament is NOT for sissies. Therefore, some of the Christian Fascists ideas and writings, and their quotes, should scare the crap out of you. I know it scares me.

For those that are reading this, I post a few quotes:
"Segregation or separation is thus a basic principle of Biblical law with respect to religion and morality. Every attempt to destroy this principle is an effort to reduce society to its lowest common denominator. Toleration is the excuse under which this levelling is undertaken, but the concept of toleration conceals a radical intolerance. In the name of toleration, the believer is asked to associate on a common level of total acceptance with the atheist, the pervert, the criminal, and the adherents of other religions as though no differences existed."-R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law, 1973, p. 294.

The (Biblical) Law here is humane and also unsentimental. It recognizes that some people are by nature slaves and will always be so. It both requires that they be dealt with in a godly manner and also that the slave recognizes his position and accepts it with grace."- R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law,  1973, p. 251

"The significance of Jesus Christ as the "faithful and true witness" is that He not only witnesses against those who are at war against God, but He also executes them." - R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law, 1973, p. 574.

"The question eventually must be raised: Is it a criminal offense to take the name of the Lord in vain? When people curse their parents, it unquestionably is a capital crime (Ex. 21:17). The son or daughter is under the lawful jurisdiction of the family. The integrity of the family must be maintained by the threat of death. Clearly, cursing God (blasphemy) is a comparable crime, and is therefore a capital crime (Lev. 24:16)." - Gary North, The Sinai Strategy: Economics and the Ten Commandments, 1986), pp. 59-60

"It occurs to me: Was Moses arrogant and unbiblical when he instructed the Israelites to kill every Canaanite in the land (Deut. 7:2; 20:16-17)? Was he an "elitist" or (horror of horrors) a racist? No; he was a God-fearing man who sought to obey God, who commanded them to kill them all. It sounds like a "superior attitude" to me. Of course, Christians have been given no comparable military command in New Testament times, but I am trying to deal with the attitude of superiority--a superiority based on our possession of the law of God. That attitude is something Christians must have when dealing with all pagans. God has given us the tools of dominion." - Gary North, The Sinai Strategy: Economics and the Ten Commandments, 1986, p. 214.

"Those who are obedient to His commands will rule the world, reconstructing it for His glory in terms of His laws. Psalm 2 shows God laughing and sneering at the pitiful attempts of the wicked to fight against and overthrow His Kingdom. He has already given His Son "all authority in heaven and earth," and the King is with His Church until the end of the age (Matt. 23:18-20)! Is it possible that the King will be defeated? He has, in fact, warned all earthly rulers to submit to His government, or perish (Ps. 2:10-12). And the same is true of His Church. The nation that will not serve us will perish (Isa. 60:12); all the peoples of the earth will be subdued under our feet (Ps. 47:1-3)--promises made originally to Israel, but now to be fulfilled in the New Israel, the Church." - David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation, 1984, p. 117.

"The Bible doesn't say that homosexuals should be executed. What it says is this: "If two men lie together like a man and a woman lie together, they are to be put to death." - Gary DeMar, January 4, 1991, "Sound Off" radio program on Superstation WSB, Atlanta, Georgia. (I had a link to interview but it no longer works, it seems)

Enter Rick Perry, Governor of Texas who hoped by many to announce is bid as a Presidential candidate in 2012. Last Saturday, he gave a prayer speech (he says it was unpolitical, but you readers can make quite the opposite conclusion) that was paid for and organised by the American Family Association (which has been labeled a hate group). Some of the Pastors on stage with him are known Christian Fascists. And this is a person we would see in the White House??!!

No, enough is enough. But how can we oppose such a movement? Yeah, protesting gets some media coverage but doesn't to do much good. And then Whitney, after the the protest, not unlike the bus boards last winter, you get the likes of Mark Davis throwing his arrogant and short sighted contempt around on WBAP and on Thursday on Fox 4. We could petition, but how many petitions do you think we'd get? How many Christians would really like to put their name and address on a piece of paper? And how many threats of harm from the good and loving Christians would happen after you knock on their door? And then, who do you send a petition to? What politician in their right mind (or wrong mind depending on your pov) would take up such a cause especially during an election year?

As for me, personally, because I work for a City, I am much too afraid of stepping into the public's eye for fear of losing my job.

So, what can be done?



The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Whitney

Personally, I prefer the approach of talking to the Christians and getting them to understand why separation of church and state is important (assuming they don't' know already, most do but may just need a nudge to care a bit more). After all, their freedom as a liberal christian would be at stake if any sort of theocracy started to take hold too...they don't want to practice fundamental religion.  The liberal and neutral Christians far outnumber the fundamentalists so we don't even have to reason with the crazy people.  The Jewish community would also be easy to get on board because they don't want christian religion to take over...many of them are already involved in some ways.

If we can educate the general public in a reasoned manner then there wouldn't even be a need to protest because they'd let their voices be known at the polls.  But for now peaceful protesting is just another tool to try to get the message out to the general public; no one expects it to actually change the politician's mind.  Same with the bus ads...just a tool and one of the bus ad organizers was able to make friends with the same pastor who hired that billboard truck that followed the buses around.

Basically, the same thing we need to do to make the non-religious more accepted by society (building bridges with the religious so they realize we are just people too) is the same thing we need to do to protect separation of church and state.

Science was protected in the school board this year without nearly as much drama as last year...so I think the message to voters is getting through.  Relatively, hardly anyone actually attended the prayer rally (30,000 at the rally vs 100,000 people lined up just a few blocks away because they needed free school supplies).  Out of a national call to prayer to a free rally they got a turnout no bigger than a small town worth of people.

Btw, Perry is to announce his presidential bid this saturday according to recent news...I think he'll find quickly (like many other overly religious candidates) that the general public just wants a president to say "god bless the us" then shut up about religion.  It's just going to be very important that the whole of the US is very aware of his religious views and how they have been mixed with his politics.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 12:44:16 AM
Honestly, AD, if I had the balls to do this, I'd be honoured to have you stand beside me. But I'll be the first to tell you, ashamedly, as a matter of fact, that I'm scared shitless to protest such a thing especially where I live.

However (humbly and meekly said), if Whitney has the courage, perhaps I can find inspiration through her?

As a matter of just an FYI, the SDA movement has always been a "champion" of (I hear my pastor use that word on points like this so I decided to use it here...heh) separation of Church and State.  It is part and parcel to the 3rd Angel's Message (Rev 14), a foundational teaching almost exclusively of SDA's that calls us (Christians) to avoid "the beast or his image" which is the world powers and the [false] worship that has been/is being set up.  However, the SDA movement is not perfect.

Sad news, Gawen.  According to the bible prophecies, your nightmare is inevitable and the religious will continue to thrive in State and State affairs where eventually, while they believe it is for the good of the people, their efforts to make a "Christian" nation is the ultimate undoing of it all.  Basically, your protests and my protests on the matter are futile.

This is the way "we" see it anyway.

I would be proud as well to hold the other side of the banner with you.  I would be scared too, in a sense.

xSilverPhinx

Those are really scary quotes, Gawen.  :o



I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Gawen

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 10, 2011, 07:12:18 PM
Those are really scary quotes, Gawen.  :o
They may be old quotes, SP, and after Rushdooney's death the thought was that Christian Reconstructivism/Dominionism and the like would die down. But it hasn't and has taken greater hold of politics. It is surprising to find out how many leaders and businessmen are in cahoots with this stuff.
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Gawen

Well, here is where my lack of activism shows...

Quote from: Whitney on August 10, 2011, 03:54:38 PM
Personally, I prefer the approach of talking to the Christians and getting them to understand why separation of church and state is important (assuming they don't' know already, most do but may just need a nudge to care a bit more).
How does one talk to Christians about it? I mean, sure, you can talk to friends and coworkers at times. But how do you get such a message out to the mainstream?

QuoteAfter all, their freedom as a liberal christian would be at stake if any sort of theocracy started to take hold too...they don't want to practice fundamental religion.  The liberal and neutral Christians far outnumber the fundamentalists so we don't even have to reason with the crazy people. 
Again, how do you talk to a 'group' of liberal Christians.

I need to sidetrack here. It's not just 'other' Christians. And I know the Christ Fascist movement is a minority. But how do you get the message out to those that are other than Judeo/Christian/Islamic theists?
Quote
The Jewish community would also be easy to get on board because they don't want christian religion to take over...many of them are already involved in some ways.
Interesting. But I haven't heard of this.

QuoteIf we can educate the general public in a reasoned manner then there wouldn't even be a need to protest because they'd let their voices be known at the polls.
If...How...where...when...
What would be a really nice thing to do is make a Metroplex Atheist Experience like they have in Austin.

QuoteBut for now peaceful protesting is just another tool to try to get the message out to the general public; no one expects it to actually change the politician's mind.  Same with the bus ads...just a tool and one of the bus ad organizers was able to make friends with the same pastor who hired that billboard truck that followed the buses around.
Inroads, I suppose. Small gains, though. I suppose billboards would help as well.
In your quote above, the underlined part...is not so much to change the politician's mind, but the people that support him/her.

QuoteBasically, the same thing we need to do to make the non-religious more accepted by society (building bridges with the religious so they realize we are just people too) is the same thing we need to do to protect separation of church and state.
And that is the hard part. You know the amount of support religious right leaders (as in Congress/HoR) have in this country, let alone Texas. How do you build a bridge with people that won't even lay the first slab on their side of the river?

QuoteScience was protected in the school board this year without nearly as much drama as last year...so I think the message to voters is getting through.
Science, yes, but Social Studies, no. Jefferson will not be included in this next round of text books, last I heard anyway.

QuoteRelatively, hardly anyone actually attended the prayer rally (30,000 at the rally vs 100,000 people lined up just a few blocks away because they needed free school supplies). Out of a national call to prayer to a free rally they got a turnout no bigger than a small town worth of people.
That's true. But it got media coverage and broadcast on Christian radio through at least 120 stations in the nation.

QuoteBtw, Perry is to announce his presidential bid this saturday according to recent news...I think he'll find quickly (like many other overly religious candidates) that the general public just wants a president to say "god bless the us" then shut up about religion.  It's just going to be very important that the whole of the US is very aware of his religious views and how they have been mixed with his politics.
I agree.
[/quote]
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Gawen

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 10, 2011, 06:57:28 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 12:44:16 AM
Honestly, AD, if I had the balls to do this, I'd be honoured to have you stand beside me. But I'll be the first to tell you, ashamedly, as a matter of fact, that I'm scared shitless to protest such a thing especially where I live.

However (humbly and meekly said), if Whitney has the courage, perhaps I can find inspiration through her?

As a matter of just an FYI, the SDA movement has always been a "champion" of (I hear my pastor use that word on points like this so I decided to use it here...heh) separation of Church and State.  It is part and parcel to the 3rd Angel's Message (Rev 14), a foundational teaching almost exclusively of SDA's that calls us (Christians) to avoid "the beast or his image" which is the world powers and the [false] worship that has been/is being set up.  However, the SDA movement is not perfect.
I didn't know this but am glad to hear it. But what exactly do you mean SDA "movement"? I don't understand the movement part.

QuoteSad news, Gawen.  According to the bible prophecies, your nightmare is inevitable and the religious will continue to thrive in State and State affairs where eventually, while they believe it is for the good of the people, their efforts to make a "Christian" nation is the ultimate undoing of it all.  Basically, your protests and my protests on the matter are futile.
It's plausible, AD. Self fulfilling prophecies of those in power have been known to come true. As an SDA, I hope you have yourself prepared when society ultimately collapses, because I think that is just as plausible.

QuoteI would be proud as well to hold the other side of the banner with you.  I would be scared too, in a sense.
I need to further educate myself on this brand of activism. Perhaps there are ways I can help out without my City Manager seeing me on the 5 o'clock news (yeah, it's a 5 o'clock news in Texas)
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 07:47:25 PM
I didn't know this but am glad to hear it. But what exactly do you mean SDA "movement"? I don't understand the movement part.

Simply that it started off as an offshoot (as most denominations have) and remains on the fringe of the larger Christian denominations as a "step-child" where most view it as a cult (and more often than not, rightly so to my shame) and some accept it as a viable Christian denomination.

Quote from: GawenIt's plausible, AD. Self fulfilling prophecies of those in power have been known to come true. As an SDA, I hope you have yourself prepared when society ultimately collapses, because I think that is just as plausible.

This is nothing new.  I am prepared in that I believe it is coming, but am at the same time fearful of the uncertainty of what God feels I can endure... "but for the sake of the elect..." if I am still among the living when it does go down.

Quote from: GawenI need to further educate myself on this brand of activism. Perhaps there are ways I can help out without my City Manager seeing me on the 5 o'clock news (yeah, it's a 5 o'clock news in Texas)

As a general rule, SDA's are not in the "business" of being activists for this cause other than the spreading of what we Christian's call "Good News", it is wasted energy to do so, IMHO.  At the same time it is right vs. wrong and separation of Church and State is right.  I would stand with you though on this.

xSilverPhinx

If I had the money I would anonymously donate some to activist organisations. It is a way of helping without getting oneself directly involved, for people who have genuine concerns over their job and safety from the nut jobs.

Things don't seem to be as bad down here in Brazil, except maybe for an attempt here and there to install some religious right-wing agenda such as teaching creationism in public schools, adding religious symbols to public buildings which ultimately blur the distinctions that the State is based on. The religious might see it as pointless whining, but it's the first step towards the sloping slope. I'm more worried about what goes on in the US, because they're actually the most influential in international matters, which would definitely affect everybody.

One thing that the religious have in loads that atheist, freethinker, secularist ect. people don't is their sense of unity and community. I think trying to wake those people up is a very valid strategy.

Funny thing is, in a non secularist government mostly revolving around some form of "god's law", the huge majority of people that will be persecuted are the religious themselves. There is inbuilt intolerance in monotheistic systems, even towards other religions and religious views. I mean, be careful with what you wish for ::)
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Gawen

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 10, 2011, 08:31:30 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 07:47:25 PM
I didn't know this but am glad to hear it. But what exactly do you mean SDA "movement"? I don't understand the movement part.

Simply that it started off as an offshoot (as most denominations have) and remains on the fringe of the larger Christian denominations as a "step-child" where most view it as a cult (and more often than not, rightly so to my shame) and some accept it as a viable Christian denomination.
OHHhhh...I understand. I thought you meant a 'movement' WITHIN the LDS, not the creation of it.

Quote from: GawenIt's plausible, AD. Self fulfilling prophecies of those in power have been known to come true. As an SDA, I hope you have yourself prepared when society ultimately collapses, because I think that is just as plausible.

This is nothing new.  I am prepared in that I believe it is coming, but am at the same time fearful of the uncertainty of what God feels I can endure... "but for the sake of the elect..." if I am still among the living when it does go down.[/quote] This is fodder for a whole different thread...*chucklin*

Quote from: GawenI need to further educate myself on this brand of activism. Perhaps there are ways I can help out without my City Manager seeing me on the 5 o'clock news (yeah, it's a 5 o'clock news in Texas)

As a general rule, SDA's are not in the "business" of being activists for this cause other than the spreading of what we Christian's call "Good News", it is wasted energy to do so, IMHO.  At the same time it is right vs. wrong and separation of Church and State is right.  I would stand with you though on this.
[/quote]I didn't mean you or the LDS as activist in this. I was speaking for myself as needing to be more educated in activism.
However, I leave you with this: If spreading the Good News is right, and standing for Church/State separation is right, why not do both?
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Whitney


Gawen

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 10, 2011, 08:36:57 PM
If I had the money I would anonymously donate some to activist organisations. It is a way of helping without getting oneself directly involved, for people who have genuine concerns over their job and safety from the nut jobs.
This more of what I have in mind.

QuoteThings don't seem to be as bad down here in Brazil, except maybe for an attempt here and there to install some religious right-wing agenda such as teaching creationism in public schools, adding religious symbols to public buildings which ultimately blur the distinctions that the State is based on. The religious might see it as pointless whining, but it's the first step towards the sloping slope. I'm more worried about what goes on in the US, because they're actually the most influential in international matters, which would definitely affect everybody.
If the US were to become a theocracy, you could bet your last dollar


that it will affect every country in the world.

QuoteOne thing that the religious have in loads that atheist, freethinker, secularist ect. people don't is their sense of unity and community. I think trying to wake those people up is a very valid strategy.
I agree. But someone said something like getting atheists together is like herding cats.

QuoteFunny thing is, in a non secularist government mostly revolving around some form of "god's law", the huge majority of people that will be persecuted are the religious themselves. There is inbuilt intolerance in monotheistic systems, even towards other religions and religious views. I mean, be careful with what you wish for ::)
What I wish for I think is right, upholds the constitution, gets religion out of politics and still allows for freedom of worship....or worship not at all.
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

xSilverPhinx

QuoteWhat I wish for I think is right, upholds the constitution, gets religion out of politics and still allows for freedom of worship....or worship not at all.

I know, it was more with the conservative theists which echo what religious institutions such as the Vatican (with their own political agenda) says about the 'evils of secularism' in mind that I wrote that comment. Sometimes I think people think that others think too much like them about how the world should be run, religiously and that a theocratic State will protect their interests.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey