Ask not for whom the bell tolls...

[Woody]

Having attended several funerals recently I can tell you that their overtly religious nature, and the religious sentiments expressed, always make me feel uncomfortable.  I won't participate in the singing of hymns and prayers, and merely being there amongst a group of people who are actively participating makes me feel like I am at a gathering of alien beings.  At the very least I feel phony for even being there. The minister of the appointed church spouts the expected religiously weighted eulogies and I sit there sighing quietly to myself and wishing all this nonsense were over and done with.  Then a member of the deceased person's family or a close friend gets up to express some deeply personal thoughts, and it can bring me to tears.  A few simple words expressing real human love far surpass all the religious liturgies and sermons you care to summon.

I have no idea how everyone here feels about all this, but what I'm really asking now is have any of you given serious thought about what you would like to happen when it comes time for your own funerals?  I hope you all have many years of happy life still ahead of you, but sooner or later, this issue is going to get very personal!  I appear to be one of the older people on the forum, but age isn't necessarily an indicator of how long any of us have left...

One thing is for sure, from where I stand right now, I am determined that my own funeral will be entirely secular; devoid of any religious content.  Admittedly, however, I concede that as I will no longer be alive at the time, I really will be beyond caring.  That being the case for each of us, does it really matter what kind of a funeral we have?  Should we just be happy to allow our families to give us a religious send-off if that comforts them and makes them feel better?  Or should they respect our wish for a secular funeral and thus, in respecting us, better commemorate our lives?

I am interested in hearing all your views on this.  If any of your have definite ideas on what a good secular funeral would consist of, please share them.  Although I know I don't want any religious element to my own funeral, I've not given it much thought beyond that. I've never attended such a funeral and don't know what constitutes a good one...anyone here have any experiences to share?

[MommaSquid]

...anyone here have any experiences to share?

Unfortunately I do.  My son died two years ago.  We didn’t have a traditional funeral…by that I mean the two day Vigil followed by a traditional Requiem Mass and burial site service filled with dismal music, prayers, and liturgy (which, as a former Roman Catholic, is the type of funeral I am used to).  

We live in AZ but most of our family lives in PA, so we had him cremated and we carried him to PA to be buried with this grandmother who had passed earlier that year.  Through the funeral home we were put in touch with a minister who performed funerals for people who didn’t have a local church contact.  I don’t know what denomination she was, but when we had our first meeting I made it clear that we wanted a secular service.  I explained that we aren’t religious people (she got the hint) but the rest of the family is Catholic, so we needed a graveside service that would be comforting yet secular.  No prayers were said.  I picked out a passage from a book, she picked out a poem and talked about my son’s life; she also talked about grieving and loss.  I think she mentioned heaven and god once, but all in all she did a good job adhering to my instructions.  The family was in too much shock to complain about a secular service.  

As for myself, I’ve been meaning to do a pre-need contract.  I don’t want a funeral service of any kind, but that’s a little unrealistic.  People need to say goodbye, so I plan to leave general instructions for a secular service:  cremation, no church, no prayers.  Everything else is up to whoever is around to mourn my passing.  

I've never attended such a funeral and don't know what constitutes a good one.

I don't know if you would consider this a good funeral, but that's how I handled the situation.

[Woody]

MommaSquid, I'm sorry to hear about your son's death.  Such tragedy is something which, I'm sure, never leaves you - and it has only been two year. My heart goes out to you.  Thank you for sharing how you handled your son's funeral.

I'm not sure what I would consider a good funeral to be either MommaSquid but it seems that the arrangements for your son's funeral were well handled.  I focused, in my initial post in this thread, on our own deaths, but as you have made clear, it is more complex than that, and it is the deaths of the people we love which bring us the most difficulty.  

I wonder how many members of your family are still practising Catholics, and if they have ever, in the two year since, passed comment on the absence of a religious service at your son's funeral?  Perhaps they were already aware of your views on religion?

I'm unfamiliar with a pre-need contract.  I'm not sure if there is anything which goes by that name over here in the UK, but it is a very good idea to have your wishes made clear in some official way - perhaps in a will. It's something I've not done myself.  It is possible to pre-pay for funerals and special requests can be detailed when doing so, and maybe that's the way to go - if you can afford it that is!

[Whitney]

I have the same feelings towards religious funerals...I never thought of the being around aliens comparison before, but that's exactly how I felt when attending my grandmother's funeral last year.  It was also my first time dealing with loss after deconverting, so being around a bunch of people talking about seeing my grandmother again in heaven actually kinda upset me because I was trying to deal with the idea of never seeing her again.  Not to mention I was in my childhood church, so I was kinda mixing feelings of being upset about being indoctrinated in my youth while dealing with loss.

The following is taken from traditional American funereal practices:  

"Funerals in colonial America were models of simplicity.  The earliest funerals in New England entailed a procession to the gravesite, where mourners stood silently by as the simple pine box was lowered into the grave.  For example, during the seventeent century: 'At burials nothing is read nor any funeral sermon made, but all the neighborhood or a goodly company of them come together by tolling the bell, and carry the dead solemnly to his grave and then stand by hi while he is buried.  The Ministers are most commonly present.'"

"Funeral services typically began in the church, followed by a procession on foot to the gravesite.  After the burial, neighbors and relatives returned to the house of the deceased, where food, drink, and tobacco were consumed with an air of festivity that tempered the pall of gloom hover over the mourners.  Margaret Coffin describes the festivites that took place during the funeral feast for a deceased man in Albany, New York:  "In 1756 Lucas Wyngard died in Albany, was buried, and his funeral feast began.  This became an all night celebration and free-for-all.  A pipe of wine was drunk, dozens of pounds of tobacco were smoked, grosses of clay pipes were used and smashed, and not a whole glass or decanter reamained in the house by morning.  The pall barers finally kindled a fire in the fireplace with scarves they had been given as tokens of their office."  Joviality, festivity, and plain drunkenness were typical at funerals and postfuneral parties.  Indeed, in planning for one's own funeral expenses during the 1700s and 1800s, it was not at all uncommon to provide for generous amount s of liquor, wine, and food for the attendants and guests.  The 'Irish wake,' with its excesses of food, drink, and jollity, is a classic examply of the party atmosphere that surrounded death and burial in traditional American society." - Confronting Death: Values, Instituations, and Human Morality by David W Moller pg 80-81. (good book for understanding death from a societal viewpoint and issues with how death is handeled today)

I think something along those lines would be how I'd want my funeral carried out...those who felt a need could say a few words as part of a short and simple memorial service somewhere pretty like a park and then everyone focuses on a celebration of my life instead of focusing on the loss.  It would be fairly secular let still allow those with religious beliefs a ceremonial way to deal with loss (I wouldn't even include a memorial service, but that seems to help a lot of people handle grieving).

[Woody]

Thanks for that one, laetusatheos.    I think we may now have a model for the ideal funeral minus, perhaps, the tobacco and clay pipes!  (I enjoyed the passage you quoted and love the appropriateness of the name, Margaret Coffin!)

Seriously...I like your personal idea of how you would like things to be.  I expect that most atheists who live in the real world, and who amongst us doesn't, are going to consider the feelings of other people and create some sense of ceremonial occasion but without resorting to 'selling out'.

Maybe we should plan for a party which we wouldn't want to miss, even though we are going to miss it.  A graveside gathering, with some suitable words, as with MommaSquid's son's funeral, or something along that line, followed by a damned good party.  No praying, no genuflecting in church to some fictional being, no crosses or purple-garbed ministers, and no talk of us joining our late family and friends in heaven.  It sounds like a good place to start at least...

I am already being given food for thought here, and hope this is giving everyone else something to think about.  Do please keep 'em coming.

[MommaSquid]

I wonder how many members of your family are still practising Catholics, and if they have ever, in the two year since, passed comment on the absence of a religious service at your son's funeral?  Perhaps they were already aware of your views on religion?

Most of my family, parents and in-laws included, are Catholics but no one has ever asked me about the secular nature of my son’s funeral.  They have probably questioned this amongst themselves, but never to my face.  Everyone knows I left the church at 18 but they don’t ask why and I don’t discuss my atheism with them.  

A graveside gathering, with some suitable words...followed by a damned good party.

There has to be a post-funeral party.  How is it that we are able to have fun immediately after burying our loved ones?  I guess the mind can only handle so much grief and needs to disconnect from it for a while.  

I'm unfamiliar with a pre-need contract.

Basically, you contract for your funeral and pay for it before you need it.  That way your family knows exactly what you want and they aren’t placed under any financial strain when you die.

[Woody]

I'm unfamiliar with a pre-need contract.

Basically, you contract for your funeral and pay for it before you need it.  That way your family knows exactly what you want and they aren’t placed under any financial strain when you die.

Thanks for making that clear, MommaSquid.  It does seem to be the same thing as the funeral plan I mentioned, and it really is a very good idea, and one we should all think about.  The problem is, no one really likes to think much about their own mortality and always imagine their ultimate demise to be far away in the distant future.  It's difficult enough, over here in the UK at least, to get people to plan for their retirement!

[silviakjell]

When I die... well, I'm sorta undecided. Part of me wants to be buried under a nice cherry tree, or perhaps I should be cremated instead? but I will definately specify- no prayers, heaven or god, and have a big party afterwards. maybe a pintata for the little kids? but if i can afford it, I would like to have my body frozen so perhaps later on scientists can revive it. It would be cool to live a second life.

Most of my friends and family aren't Christian anyway, so I don't really have to worry about my funeral, but what I'm worrying about is my marriage! All the marriages I've seen on TV are people going to the chapel, a preist reading from th bible, and all that. But if I'm an atheist what celebration should I undergo for my wedding?

[Whitney]

When I die... well, I'm sorta undecided. Part of me wants to be buried under a nice cherry tree, or perhaps I should be cremated instead? but I will definately specify- no prayers, heaven or god, and have a big party afterwards. maybe a pintata for the little kids? but if i can afford it, I would like to have my body frozen so perhaps later on scientists can revive it. It would be cool to live a second life.

Looks like we are all going to have parties.

The idea of having myself frozen doesn't appeal to me...I've what if'd it so many times that the possible bad synarios outway the good.  

Most of my friends and family aren't Christian anyway, so I don't really have to worry about my funeral, but what I'm worrying about is my marriage! All the marriages I've seen on TV are people going to the chapel, a preist reading from th bible, and all that. But if I'm an atheist what celebration should I undergo for my wedding?

Weddings don't have to involve a church, priest or bible...lots of non-christians get married all the time and have been doing so before Christianity existed.  You could get married in a park, by the beach, in a courthouse, in your back yard...pretty much wherever you want.  Judges and anyone who is ordained/certified (you could have a friend get ordained online and/or file the necessary paper work) can perform the ceremony.  You can make up your own vows or borrow from and even alter to your liking the vows of other cultures, people, and religions.  And...there is always vegas where you can get married by an Elvis impersonator to Blue Suede shoes if you so desire (any other number of themed weddings are available there...or you could theme you wedding and have it anywhere).

[Woody]

Most of my friends and family aren't Christian anyway, so I don't really have to worry about my funeral, but what I'm worrying about is my marriage! All the marriages I've seen on TV are people going to the chapel, a preist reading from th bible, and all that. But if I'm an atheist what celebration should I undergo for my wedding?

As laetusatheos said, you will definitely have a variety of options should you ever decide to get married, so I wouldn't worry about that silviakjell; it really isn't necessary to have a religious wedding ceremony.

You raised the question of choice between burial and cremation.  This is another choice we should probably make clear before we die.  I'm not totally decided on this one myself.  It costs more to be buried than to be burned, but I don't want that to be a significant factor in the decision, one way or the other.  It seems to me that the most environmentally friendly way would be burial, but perhaps someone can argue otherwise? I do like the idea of burial for another reason; it gives  family and friends a place where they can come and remember you.  You could bury ashes, of course, but for me that just isn't the same!  Well, though I've not decided for sure, you can probably tell which way I'm leaning... If anyone has any thoughts about this, I'd be glad to hear them.

[Court]

I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread somewhere beautiful. That way, when my family and loved ones want to "visit" me, they won't be in a gloomy cemetary.

[McQ]

Most of my friends and family aren't Christian anyway, so I don't really have to worry about my funeral, but what I'm worrying about is my marriage! All the marriages I've seen on TV are people going to the chapel, a preist reading from th bible, and all that. But if I'm an atheist what celebration should I undergo for my wedding?

As laetusatheos said, you will definitely have a variety of options should you ever decide to get married, so I wouldn't worry about that silviakjell; it really isn't necessary to have a religious wedding ceremony.

You raised the question of choice between burial and cremation.  This is another choice we should probably make clear before we die.  I'm not totally decided on this one myself.  It costs more to be buried than to be burned, but I don't want that to be a significant factor in the decision, one way or the other.  It seems to me that the most environmentally friendly way would be burial, but perhaps someone can argue otherwise? I do like the idea of burial for another reason; it gives  family and friends a place where they can come and remember you.  You could bury ashes, of course, but for me that just isn't the same!  Well, though I've not decided for sure, you can probably tell which way I'm leaning... If anyone has any thoughts about this, I'd be glad to hear them.

Cremation all the way, baby! LOL! That way I don't contribute to the overcrowding of cemetaries, which wastes land that could be used for crops, or golf courses, or Native American Casinos. ;-)

And it's gonna be party time instead of a funeral. Before my mother died of cancer a few years ago, she planned her entire service and post-funeral party. It was a blast. She always threw great parties, so she made sure her last one was huge. It was awesome!

As for giving my family someplace to go to visit me, they are going to plant a Sycamore Tree somewhere with a little plaque underneath it for me. Then they can go visit it and my grandkids (someday, when I actually have them) will climb the tree in my honor, and fall out of it and break their little arms and necks and stuff! LOL!

[Woody]

I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread somewhere beautiful. That way, when my family and loved ones want to "visit" me, they won't be in a gloomy cemetary.

Thanks, Court.  My wife has had similar thoughts and I can see its attraction.

As for giving my family someplace to go to visit me, they are going to plant a Sycamore Tree somewhere with a little plaque underneath it for me. Then they can go visit it and my grandkids (someday, when I actually have them) will climb the tree in my honor, and fall out of it and break their little arms and necks and stuff! LOL!

I like the tree idea too, McQ

Cremation all the way, baby! LOL! That way I don't contribute to the overcrowding of cemetaries, which wastes land that could be used for crops, or golf courses, or Native American Casinos. Wink

I had considered the land wastage idea, and over here in the UK where land is at a premium it might be significant. However, as cremation seems so popular these days, it could be that it's not as big an issue as the consumption of fossil fuel resources in the furness and the inevitable pollution.  However, I am absolutely not an expert on these issues so feel free to disagree!

[silviakjell]

Oh. Hm. Alright then. But I wonder where I'll get married? In China the "traditional" way (well, at least the way my parents did it) to get married is to invite all your friends to a restaraunt and get married there, since most Chinese people are atheists.

I read in a book that UK buries 90% of it's trash in landfills. Maybe that's the problem with land?

Leatus, what's wrong about being frozen? I never really thought there was anything wrong about that. Besides being expensive of course.

[Whitney]

Leatus, what's wrong about being frozen? I never really thought there was anything wrong about that. Besides being expensive of course.

Well, other than than being able to just pass on that money to kids or whatever.  We don't know what the world will be like when technology maybe gets to the point of being able to successfully unfreeze someone.  What if whoever is in government wants to make slaves of those people...given human history it wouldn't be out of the question.  What if we have destroyed then environment and can no longer go outside of climate controlled areas.  What if all that makes you YOU can't be retrieved through he unfreezing process.  

We don't really know anything about what is possible or not with bringing a frozen dead body back to life.  The current freezing methods could very well be wrong, thus making the whole idea of doing it completely pointless at this time.  I also see the companies who are offering this option going bankrupt well before any sort of 'reincarnation' methods are possible...once they have to cover costs for people being frozen for a few hundred years and the cost for being frozen, thus, escalates there will eventually be more expense than income.  Basically, to me, it seems like a pipe dream not that all different from hoping for an afterlife.  So, nothing exactly wrong with wanting to be frozen, just not something I'd get my hopes up about...personally, I'd rather give that money to possible future kids or a charity. (unless we happen to develop better related technology before I die...see below).

Even if we developed the technology to keep people alive forever...which is basically what we would need to be able to successfully unfreeze people who had already died a natural death.  I would hope that we had mastered interstellar space travel and the ability to make all planets livable by that time.  We may be looking at an overcrowded Earth within our lifetimes...without options past living on Earth then I don't picture very favorable living conditions.

So, ya, um, that's my view and it may seem a little paranoid, but makes a lot of sense to me...but I do welcome other views and will take them into account. (this may be a good topic to split off into it's own thread if anyone else finds it interesting)