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On truth, fake news and misleading the public.

Started by Dave, September 17, 2018, 10:55:55 AM

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Velma

Quote from: Dave on September 19, 2018, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on September 19, 2018, 05:37:15 PM
I get more and more the feeling that the news is no longer about facts and reliable information, but about opinions and stirring up feelings.

Youe feeling could well be founded in fact. Once the media reported news, maybe with some invedtigation, then opinionated on it in the editorial(s). Now they do seem to generate it as well, or at least inflate things to pander to their perception of public opionion.

But, as No-one so often reminds us, people are often stupid en masse, easily led.
It is more difficult to find news reporting that has not been manipulated or filtered in some way. That makes it more imperative to know your sources and have multiple reliable streams of information. Of course, here in the US, it has been shown that one of the better ways to be informed in a half-decent way about the news is to avoid Fox News altogether.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/11/21/fox-news-viewers-uninformed-npr-listeners-not-poll-suggests/#217061434fd8
Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of the astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy.~Carl Sagan

Asmodean

Why avoid Fox News? They are decently credible in news reporting. Sure, they lean right, but MSNBC leans as much towards the left, as does CNN. Why are they not on your list of things to avoid?

I'd like to share a video of Tim Pool's here. There is some (relevant) drama around him being the target of fake news at the beginning, but if you skip approximately sixteen minutes, he gives his analysis of news reporting. I don't think he's wrong. (I do recommend watching the whole video for context)


Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Asmodean

#17
I see I left a excellent point unaddressed. Let us remedy that.

Quote from: Dave on September 18, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
Then there is no trustworthy source, even your own perspective may put emotional or other overtones on what you observe with your own eyes.
Indeed. There is no one trustworthy source, at least that I have found. In local media, I tend to use the coverage of the now-failed Syrian rebellion as an example. In presenting it as rebellion, rather than for instance some romantic struggle for freedom and democracy, I am indeed displaying my reformist, anti-revolutionary bias. The thing is, though, I'm not wrong. I am not, and neither are those weaving their opinions into what they write and how they write it. So, if you listen to me AND them, you may get a far more complex story than you would from either source on its own, perhaps even complex enough to make up your mind in an informed way.

That is why I'm not saying something along the lines of "CNN is fake news" - some of what they present is, while other things are not. Bias does not a fake story make - not on its own. In my opinion, that also takes a personal (or corporate, for that matter) agenda - an ideological horse in the race, so to speak.

QuoteConsidering motive: what is a politician's motive? If he/she qualifies for that title (which itself can be a subjective view) then it will be some form of manipulation in favour of an ideology - the very substance of politics - and not necessarily (perhaps exceedingly rarely) in favour of the truth.
There are some matters, in which truth indeed is a matter of opinion. For instance, the question of whether taxes on certain groups and individuals are too high, or what we owe the future generations. Stuff like that. If truth was truth was truth, always and forever, one would think that we as a species would have evolved past the need for politics by now.

Quote
So, though I think Reuters is more trustworthy than some it can still only be a qualified trust.
True. I trust Reuters to report adequately on some crime spree, or a meeting between state leaders, especially if I don't really care about the issue (or if it does not affect me in an immediate enough way) At the very least, I trust them to just be wrong if their reporting is off on an issue like that.

Matters of politics and culture, into which many a hot topic with an otherwise factually verifiable base may fall, however... Indeed, it has to be a qualified trust in such matters, and a small trust in my particular case.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Dave

Quote from: Asmodean on September 20, 2018, 09:03:22 AM
Quote from: Dave on September 18, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
Then there is no trustworthy source, even your own perspective may put emotional or other overtones on what you observe with your own eyes.
Indeed. There is no one trustworthy source, at least that I have found. In local media, I tend to use the coverage of the now-failed Syrian rebellion as an example. In presenting it as rebellion, rather than for instance some romantic struggle for freedom and democracy, I am indeed displaying my reformist, anti-revolutionary bias. The thing is, though, I'm not wrong. I am not, and neither are those weaving their opinions into what they write and how they write it. So, if you listen to me AND them, you may get a far more complex story than you would from either source on its own, perhaps even complex enough to make up your mind in an informed way.

That is why I'm not saying something along the lines of "CNN is fake news" - some of what they present is, while other things are not. Bias does not a fake story make - not on its own. In my opinion, that also takes a personal (or corporate, for that matter) agenda - an ideological horse in the race, so to speak.

I think there are two, or more, classes of 'fake news'. It is said that one person's self-less patriotic hero is another's crazed terrorist. Daesh and Syrian are just the current headline s of this. The Syrians who started with was was, it seems, intended to be a non-violent protest soon morphed into violent rebels in sone eyes and terrorists in Assad's view. I remember trying to find a definition thinking of 'terrorism' as civert acts intended to cause death and panic amongst the ordinary people of the enemy. But then I realised that, in the normal way of such things, 'just rebellion' can so easily take on the tactics of covert terrorism - especially if things are going the wrong way.

So, though distortion of fact was rife on all sides, partly for political reasons, perspective was important and I could not judge accurately because I was not there. And even if I was there my poor opinion of most figures of authority would distort my perspective.

So Syria was a case of using fake news in a situation of armed conflict to justify harsh behaviour, one stage beyond standard propaganda used to win the opinion of or encourage the public.

Trump's style is the latter, misrepresentation of fact in one's favour. What bothers me is that, just a feeling, he has taken it a stage further in believing his own distortions. A leader that seeks to delude the public is quite normal, every politician does it - a leader that deludes him or her self is far more dangerous.

It is inevitable that the left leaning press are going to lean further as their 'target' continues to lean the other way, just as the right leaning press will stretch to find ways of justifying the words of their 'favourite'. I still remember that video of Fox News staff being caught unawares by a particularly (probably off script) outrageous Trumpism.

Unfortunately it takes lots of fairly intelligent listening and reading, a decent memory and a sceptical/analytical frame of mind to keep track of the 'wood creep'.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Asmodean

Quote from: Dave on September 20, 2018, 10:05:00 AM
I think there are two, or more, classes of 'fake news'. It is said that one person's self-less patriotic hero is another's crazed terrorist. Daesh and Syrian are just the current headline s of this. The Syrians who started with was was, it seems, intended to be a non-violent protest soon morphed into violent rebels in sone eyes and terrorists in Assad's view. I remember trying to find a definition thinking of 'terrorism' as civert acts intended to cause death and panic amongst the ordinary people of the enemy. But then I realised that, in the normal way of such things, 'just rebellion' can so easily take on the tactics of covert terrorism - especially if things are going the wrong way.

So, though distortion of fact was rife on all sides, partly for political reasons, perspective was important and I could not judge accurately because I was not there. And even if I was there my poor opinion of most figures of authority would distort my perspective.
I agree.

QuoteSo Syria was a case of using fake news in a situation of armed conflict to justify harsh behaviour, one stage beyond standard propaganda used to win the opinion of or encourage the public.
War is usually full of fake news from every side imaginable, which is precisely why I use it in my examples of biases vs lies - there is a plethora of pretty obvious examples of either in the Syrian conflict.

QuoteTrump's style is the latter, misrepresentation of fact in one's favour. What bothers me is that, just a feeling, he has taken it a stage further in believing his own distortions. A leader that seeks to delude the public is quite normal, every politician does it - a leader that deludes him or her self is far more dangerous.
Hmm... I wonder if not the majority of them do that. I further wonder, if that is not something one almost "has to" do to get any distance in the game of politics; not only to be a good liar, but to be able to believe your own lies. Disturbing thought.

As for Mr. Trump, I find that sometimes, when the "whole" media is against him, he can be surprisingly not wrong, in the sense that it may be that the road he took to reach his conclusions may be riddled with pot holes, but the conclusions themselves have merit. Note that I'm almost blank on his domestic policy, so I will not argue any beef the US residents may have with him on home soil.

QuoteIt is inevitable that the left leaning press are going to lean further as their 'target' continues to lean the other way, just as the right leaning press will stretch to find ways of justifying the words of their 'favourite'. I still remember that video of Fox News staff being caught unawares by a particularly (probably off script) outrageous Trumpism.
I agree. Breitbart and The Daily Beast alike do what works best for their customers. I don't think we should discount them for being biased, but we do have to watch out for fake news, even from the more mainstream media outlets than the two I just mentioned.

Quote
Unfortunately it takes lots of fairly intelligent listening and reading, a decent memory and a sceptical/analytical frame of mind to keep track of the 'wood creep'.
I think I managed to squeeze five additional IQ points out of constantly being inspired to question what I hear and dig before claiming knowledge. (Not a very serious point, this, but... I actually do appreciate the intellectual excercise. Then again, I've never been ye-olde average Joe that way)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Dave

The Asmo wrote:
QuoteI think I managed to squeeze five additional IQ points out of constantly being inspired to question what I hear and dig before claiming knowledge.

Ah, 'knowledge', hmmm . . .


And then he wrote:
Quote(Not a very serious point, this, but... I actually do appreciate the intellectual excercise. Then again, I've never been ye-olde average Joe that way)

Shall we form a club?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.