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Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country

Started by Tank, April 09, 2012, 04:47:32 PM

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Tank

Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country

QuotePrincess Basma Bint Saud Bin Abdulaziz tells the BBC there are many changes she would like to see in Saudi Arabia - but that now is not the time for women to be allowed to drive.

I speak as the daughter of King Saud, the former ruler of Saudi Arabia. My father established the first women's university in the kingdom, abolished slavery and tried to establish a constitutional monarchy that separates the position of king from that of prime minister. But I am saddened to say that my beloved country today has not fulfilled that early promise.

Our ancient culture, of which I am very proud, is renowned for its nobility and generosity, but we lack, and urgently need, fundamental civil laws with which to govern our society.

As a daughter, sister, (former) wife, mother, businesswoman and a working journalist, these are the things that I would like to see changed in Saudi Arabia...

The rest of the article goes on to detail the 5 things she would change.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Sweetdeath

Her hope and determination are admirable. Though I am so unsure anything will ever change in that country... :(
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

markmcdaniel

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 11, 2012, 07:23:20 AM
Her hope and determination are admirable. Though I am so unsure anything will ever change in that country... :(
Given the power current power structure in Saudi Arabia and the general radicalization Islam is undergoing these ideas are probably to radical to advance far. But one can hope.
It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against Christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science - Charles Darwin

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the object of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a god, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. - Albert Einstein

Religion is a by product of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity. - Arther C. Clarke

Faith means not wanting to know what is true. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Firebird

"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Tank

Quote from: Firebird on June 08, 2012, 03:10:42 PM
So twisted that these are our "allies".
A situation well 'lubricated' by the oil issue.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Sweetdeath

Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Firebird

So true. When's that kid going to finish the nuclear fusion plant already? :)
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Icarus

Not much to praise, but at least a small start..........The Saudis will have two female athletes at the Olympic games. This has never happened before. One of the women will compete in Judo, the other in track. I do not know whether they will compete while shrouded in their head scarves. The judo contestant will be required to wear a judo gi (standard unifiorm) that is part of the standing rules of shiai. (shiai is the contest of one opponent against the other) The head scarf would probably be allowed but it may be dislaced accidentally during the contest
.

The Saudis, along with the rest of the strict Islamists who subjugate females, are clearly crapping in their mess kits. They are leaving one of their most valuable resources to be cloistered, suppressed, wasted. 

Our CIA has many women operatives who are, on balance, more efficient than men. (male chauvinist pigs like me take no pleasure in this reality) In the words of a high ranking male CIA project leader; women do not waste time telling war stories, or go outside the building to smoke cigarettes, they are shrewd and insightful in ways that men are not.

Some of the key decision makers in the ultra- extremely well planned and orchestrated take down of Osama Bin Laden were women.  One in particular was Michelle Flournoy who was a top level researcher, mission plotter, black widow, and overall wizard who had Obamas ear.  The Islamists are plainly stupid for their attitude toward women. 

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Icarus on July 16, 2012, 02:24:11 AM
Not much to praise, but at least a small start..........The Saudis will have two female athletes at the Olympic games. This has never happened before. One of the women will compete in Judo, the other in track. I do not know whether they will compete while shrouded in their head scarves. The judo contestant will be required to wear a judo gi (standard unifiorm) that is part of the standing rules of shiai. (shiai is the contest of one opponent against the other) The head scarf would probably be allowed but it may be dislaced accidentally during the contest
.

The Saudis, along with the rest of the strict Islamists who subjugate females, are clearly crapping in their mess kits. They are leaving one of their most valuable resources to be cloistered, suppressed, wasted. 

Our CIA has many women operatives who are, on balance, more efficient than men. (male chauvinist pigs like me take no pleasure in this reality) In the words of a high ranking male CIA project leader; women do not waste time telling war stories, or go outside the building to smoke cigarettes, they are shrewd and insightful in ways that men are not.

Some of the key decision makers in the ultra- extremely well planned and orchestrated take down of Osama Bin Laden were women.  One in particular was Michelle Flournoy who was a top level researcher, mission plotter, black widow, and overall wizard who had Obamas ear.  The Islamists are plainly stupid for their attitude toward women. 

I like this post.  ;D


honestly though, it's really time to end the gender wars and evolve. Skills based on what hangs, (or doesn't hang,) between your legs is ancient thinking, closed minded and necessary.
it's really sad this country is like....probably never going to.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Firebird

Quote from: Icarus on July 16, 2012, 02:24:11 AM
Not much to praise, but at least a small start..........The Saudis will have two female athletes at the Olympic games. This has never happened before. One of the women will compete in Judo, the other in track. I do not know whether they will compete while shrouded in their head scarves. The judo contestant will be required to wear a judo gi (standard unifiorm) that is part of the standing rules of shiai. (shiai is the contest of one opponent against the other) The head scarf would probably be allowed but it may be dislaced accidentally during the contest
.

The Saudis, along with the rest of the strict Islamists who subjugate females, are clearly crapping in their mess kits. They are leaving one of their most valuable resources to be cloistered, suppressed, wasted. 

Our CIA has many women operatives who are, on balance, more efficient than men. (male chauvinist pigs like me take no pleasure in this reality) In the words of a high ranking male CIA project leader; women do not waste time telling war stories, or go outside the building to smoke cigarettes, they are shrewd and insightful in ways that men are not.

Some of the key decision makers in the ultra- extremely well planned and orchestrated take down of Osama Bin Laden were women.  One in particular was Michelle Flournoy who was a top level researcher, mission plotter, black widow, and overall wizard who had Obamas ear.  The Islamists are plainly stupid for their attitude toward women. 

The current Saudi monarchy is certainly taking some baby steps towards women's rights, but they're baby steps for a reason. Push too hard and the conservatives push back, and possibly with a vengeance. They still can't drive, for example. Still, it is a positive sign.
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

TheWalkingContradiction

#10
It is very difficult to interpret this article as a Westerner, and for this reason reason I must shed my Western skin and look to my (Lebanese) Arabic heritage and experience.  Also, I have many Saudi students, both men and women, in my classes and understand a little of this unique culture.

In general, I adore my Saudi students.  A few are lazy or arrogant, but most are respectful, sincere, hard-working and a pleasure to teach.  They love to laugh and have a delightful sense of humor.  In fact, we have a teacher from the Bible Belt who does not understand Saudi culture well...   So, with a straight face, one of her Saudi students once approached her and asked for advice on an American gift he could bring back for his camel.  She believed him and actually started to give advice until a few classmates started to snicker.  When she realized she had been had, she burst out laughing and commended the student.

The first thing you need to understand is that strict Islamic law is mainly for public places.  People can generally do what they wish in their own homes.  Traditionally, even very religious women do not wear head coverings at home with relatives and close friends.  Some modern women do not wear them at all at home even if there are males they do not know well visiting.  Some sects do cover the face completely, revealing only the eyes; however, for most religious Saudi women, only the hair is covered.  The forehead, nose, eyes, cheeks, mouth and chin are not.  In fact, Saudi women often look like nuns, and I have amazed more than one Saudi student by showing pictures of nuns.  That breaks another stereotype.

It is worth noting that head coverings and even veils are not Muslim inventions.  Ancient Greek (Pagan) women, Jewish women, and Christian women wore them in the Middle East and Greece long before the dawning of Islam.  It is a cultural issue, not a religious one, and was originally a way to protect women from predators--although there has always been a religious element attached in certain times and places.  

Middle and upper class Saudi women tend to be very, very pampered and are not as restricted as one may think.  True, they cannot drive, but their chauffeurs take them anywhere they want to go at any time.  There are gyms and soccer teams for Saudi women, for example.  I in no way say that I feel women lead an ideal life there, but I do say that it is not what many Westerners think.  

While the way some men treat them is sexist and not something I approve of, I have been told by many Saudi students, both married ones and ones who will eventually marry, that women are like queens one should sacrifice oneself to serve.  (The language they use reminds me of Medieval courtly love in Europe.)  In my classes I have seen many newly married husbands and wives from Saudi Arabia who are deeply in love; it is obvious in their body language and glances at one another.

Sadly, there is physical and sexual abuse in Saudi Arabia (as there is everywhere), and not every women finds such a happy marriage.  One may also argue that by being in my university classroom in the U.S., my students come from the upper levels of Saudi society.  It is also true that a woman there has a hard time finding justice.  Some believe that if a woman is raped she should be put to death since she "allowed" the rape to happen and cannot marry as a virgin and thus fulfill family honor.  Many others, particularly the well educated, think such a belief barbaric.  Some Saudi fathers are animals; others deeply love and respect their daughters.  But isn't that true of all countries?  

Expressing dissent is dangerous, which is why this article is heroic.  The dissent is very cautious, with assurance of respect for Islam and traditional values.  The princess could be a devout believer or an atheist; there is no way to tell since atheists would not express themselves openly the way we do here.  (But I can tell you that Saudi atheists do exist.)  

The real danger to freethinkers is Saudi Arabia's plainclothes morality police, and my students have told me stories of when they were arrested (walking with a woman who was not a relative -- you have to carry identity papers at all times) and nearly arrested (a male wearing a sleeveless shirt at a mall because it was very hot outside).  Another male in my class, a student with a pony tail, says he would be arrested in his county if he had it there; it is considered women's hair.  Before he goes back, he has to get a haircut.  

These laws only apply to locals.  In the words of the young Saudi in the sleeveless shirt, the morality police then spotted another man with a sleeveless shirt, but all he had to do was say he was Lebanese for them to wish him a nice day.  The morality police are only for Saudis, not Arabs from other countries and non-Arabs.    

Many Saudis disagree with the way the Saudi government enforces zealous religious laws and break them in secret--or when they are on vacation or studying abroad.  To the Saudis, Bahrain is like Spring Break Florida, Spring Break Cancun, and year-round Las Vegas rolled into one.  If they wish, they can get drunk there, they can have premarital sex (and for some not necessarily heterosexual sex) without having to be hyper-careful that no one else knows about it, and they can do many things that they are not supposed to do before putting back on the mantle of religious conformity and re-entering their country.

There are also zones in Saudi Arabia where anything goes for locals and foreigners.  One students told me about a section of Jeddah, her city, where women can drive and dress as they wish--but only in that part of the city.

Imagine if the ultra-religious ran the national and local government in your country and imposed their laws on you.  That is what Saudi Arabia is like.  But don't condemn the people because of their government or traditional culture.  Many Saudis, religious or secular, are delightful people and nothing like the fanatic stereotype.  If you ever have the chance to meet Saudi people or make Saudi friends, you will be very pleasantly surprised.  

Recusant

Excellent post, TheWalkingContradiction; thank you!
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


DeterminedJuliet

I appreciate your post TWC. I can't say that I've known many Saudi's personally, though I'd like to think that I'd try to keep from jumping to any conclusions if/when I meet them. My general attitude is to treat the people I meet with respect unless they give me a reason not to.  :)

As for the "treated like queens" comment, I believe you, but I'm a believer of "a gilded cage is still a cage." I find the notion of chivalry or courtly love pretty distasteful, actually. I don't even like it when men go out of their way to hold the door open for me (if it's in an obvious "ladies first" kinda way).
So, I can see how there'd be a pretty wide divide in worldviews there.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 17, 2012, 03:35:00 AM
I appreciate your post TWC. I can't say that I've known many Saudi's personally, though I'd like to think that I'd try to keep from jumping to any conclusions if/when I meet them. My general attitude is to treat the people I meet with respect unless they give me a reason not to.  :)

As for the "treated like queens" comment, I believe you, but I'm a believer of "a gilded cage is still a cage." I find the notion of chivalry or courtly love pretty distasteful, actually. I don't even like it when men go out of their way to hold the door open for me (if it's in an obvious "ladies first" kinda way).
So, I can see how there'd be a pretty wide divide in worldviews there.

Haha, oh DJ. You reminded me that when men hold the door open for my friend, she goes through the other side (double door) herself.

I dislike the most when i am walking to elevator and men waits for me to get on, though i am further than him. I just give him a dirty look or tell him "well, please go. i'm waiting to get on."

chivarly is bullshit. A thinly veiled form of putting a woman as second class.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

hismikeness

I hold doors because I feel it's the polite thing to do.

DJ, SD... if we ever happen upon the same door at the same time, expect me to hold it open for you. That's how my mom, dad, coaches, and many other respectable men that have shaped who I am have taught/displayed to me. It's nothing personal.

Frankly, reading in to it that holding a door for you is a way of reminding you you are second class or something is quite a reach, IMO. Like I said, I do it because I think it's polite. I hold the door for my wife every time to the point that she will catch herself waiting at the door for me.

I got glared at once while in college for darting ahead to hold a door for another student. She glared and muttered something about "I don't need a man to hold my doors" or something. I told her to FO after that.
No churches have free wifi because they don't want to compete with an invisible force that works.

When the alien invasion does indeed happen, if everyone would just go out into the streets & inexpertly play the flute, they'll just go. -@UncleDynamite