Religious based sexism

[Medusa]

People are still allowed to choose what they want to believe religiously or non.

[Tank]

People are still allowed to choose what they want to believe religiously or non.

Believe yes, act on dogma, no. 50 year old men in the west can't marry 9 year old girls and bed them. Cultural relativism is a thorny issue that becomes more problomatical as the world 'shrinks' exposing different cultures to each other. Some Japanese comic books have content that would have them banned in the west. But Japanese society is so repressed they use fantasy as a pressure release and escape. There isn't a 'sound bite' answer to this question IMO.

[Medusa]

People are still allowed to choose what they want to believe religiously or non.

Believe yes, act on dogma, no. 50 year old men in the west can't marry 9 year old girls and bed them. Cultural relativism is a thorny issue that becomes more problomatical as the world 'shrinks' exposing different cultures to each other. Some Japanese comic books have content that would have them banned in the west. But Japanese society is so repressed they use fantasy as a pressure release and escape. There isn't a 'sound bite' answer to this question IMO.

Agreed. Which is why I chose the word believe carefully. Doing things you want without regard to the law you end up like Warren Jeffs in jail! (thank Gawd). I know quite a few Pagans who follow a more matriarchal old religion. I can't tell them not to. 

[Stevil]

People are still allowed to choose what they want to believe religiously or non.

Medusa, I want to understand your position a bit better.

Do you think people should have complete freedom within a society to act however they like with regards to bigotry?
e.g
1. Should a person be able to start a private, members only golf club where there is a membership requirement that members be 100% European white?
2. Should a person be allowed to operate a private school, where no teachers will be hired if they are gay, and can be fired if they get found out as being gay?
3. Should a person who owns an amusement park be allowed to refuse entry to Muslims because they are worried that Muslims might blow themselves up?

or do you think it is only OK to have discriminative policies for a religious organisation?

[Medusa]

Good questions. Thanks for allowing me to clarify my position.

1) No
2) No
3)No

I think people are allowed to BELIEVE whatever they want. And what they do must be in compliance with the law of the country they are residing. If not they are going to face the justice of that country. I believe you can believe and do absolutely anything you want with the caveat that you will be 100% responsible for your actions and take the consequences. This is a Satanic principle that I hold dearly to.

As to this thread and specifically the Catholic church. Is it a patriarchal religion? Yes. Is it a choice for people? Yes. If the group in general wants women in it, they will be in it. The Catholic church is NOT simply the church 'employees' and the Pope. It IS the congregation. For things to change the congregation must make the steps to change it from the inside out. I cannot change the religious affiliation YOU as a Catholic person CHOSE to be a part of. I disagree with a lot of things the Catholic church does (as a former Catholic member I understand deeply how the male dominated religion flows). The Catholic church has had rumbles in its organization before. When the congregation rumbles enough, things will change. To the Catholic church they believe what they believe. You cannot put your opinions on their belief system. As tacky and backward their beliefs may seem to some...they have, you have, I have a right to believe what I want to believe. Not just what is deemed on the 'ok' list by Stevil. Or any other person who wants to make things fit their way. Some alternate Stevil believes ALL people should believe in God. What would you tell him? That you are right? I should be believing in something I don't!

As abhorrent as some beliefs are, you can't push your own belief on them. Because someone is going to push it on you. I have to tolerate other's beliefs. Not just the ones I am ok with. That's my stance.

My question for you is:

What exact changes would you make the to Catholic church that would ease your mind AND be respectful to the people who choose to follow the religion the way they want?

(who knows. I may agree with you on some of your changes)

[Stevil]

My question for you is:

What exact changes would you make the to Catholic church that would ease your mind AND be respectful to the people who choose to follow the religion the way they want?

(who knows. I may agree with you on some of your changes)

I would like the church to be subject to the laws of our society, just like everyone else is subject to those laws.

I don't understand why they seem to be exempt. Do all countries give them exemption from bigotry laws or are there some countries which uphold these laws irregardless. If some countries do uphold the law, I would like to know what happens to the church within these countries. Does it leave, does it remain defiant and go underground? does it arrogantly hold its head up in defiance? or does it tow the line as the bible instructs its followers to abide by the laws of the governing bodies?

[Medusa]

My question for you is:

What exact changes would you make the to Catholic church that would ease your mind AND be respectful to the people who choose to follow the religion the way they want?

(who knows. I may agree with you on some of your changes)

I would like the church to be subject to the laws of our society, just like everyone else is subject to those laws.

I don't understand why they seem to be exempt. Do all countries give them exemption from bigotry laws or are there some countries which uphold these laws irregardless. If some countries do uphold the law, I would like to know what happens to the church within these countries. Does it leave, does it remain defiant and go underground? does it arrogantly hold its head up in defiance? or does it tow the line as the bible instructs its followers to abide by the laws of the governing bodies?

Hmm I'm wondering the logistics of something though. The Catholic religion here is ran by the Vatican over there. Each country is different. And what might be not ok here is ok there. Especially when the edicts are coming directly from Da Pope! 

Also I wanted to know specifically what things you want to see change. And are the things you want to see change the things they want to see change? I mean I have to ask, but as a Satanist, I don't want anyone else butting in my religion and how it should be followed. That sorta sits all kinds of wrong with me.

[xSilverPhinx]

Just to ensure you don't think I am making it up, here are some quotes. Of course I am only posting the sexist ones, there are some people there that are supportive of femal alter servers. But I just find it difficult reading some of this stuff.

I've always been against female altar servers, though you make a valid point.

But the girls that are altar serving should first understand, that priesthood is a guy thing. And so is altar serving.

I don't believe in female altar servers, and I agree with the Church's position that preference should be given to male altar servers.
However,I don't think altar girls will in themselves destroy vocations to the priesthood or make little girls all want to become priests. I see altar girls as more symptomatic of bigger problems in the Church.

More problematic is that the whole original push for altar girls was driven by a feminist agenda of "gender equality" (believing that men and women should have exactly the same roles in society and the Church) rather than by any genuine religious need, and that this practice was carried out for many years in blatant opposition to Church discipline

There are not supposed to be girl servers in Byzantine Churches, although I've heard of at least one priest who permits it... Anyway, they're not supposed to

Serving at the altar as an alter boy was meant to be almost like an apprenticeship. The idea was the guide young men into the service of the Liturgy, and almost all priests came from them. This was the norm for centuries, perhaps millenia. It was changed probably due to new thoughts on gender and feminism

Having women serve at the altar serves no necessary purpose

from a liturgical perspective, it's absolutely a mistake to have female altar servers. everyone here is looking at this from a practical perspective, almost a marketing perspective: "what will attract more vocations?" et cetera. while that is an interesting subject, and I do think having altar boys act as apprenticeships, as it were, do help foster vocations, that is not the only thing to consider.

Boys serve at the altar partly as a way to introduce youths to the priesthood, which is for males only. Currently, the vast majority of altar servers do not become priests. However, this trend can and should change. Boys should be encouraged to consider the priesthood from an early age. And they should be encouraged to become altar servers as a good first introduction to the priesthood. But if girls serve along side boys, the role of altar server will not be viewed by the children or their parents as an introduction to the role of a priest. One might say that the role of altar girl can be an introduction for the girls to the religious life, so that boys would see serving at the altar as a precursor to the role of a priest, and girls would see it as a precursor to the role of a religious sister. This view is incorrect. It is not the role of women religious to serve at the altar. Nuns are called to the consecrated life for prayer, self-sacrifice, and works of mercy. Nuns are not called to take those roles which are most fitting only for the ordained, but which do not absolutely require ordination. There are certain roles in the Church which require ordination, and other roles which, while not absolutely requiring ordination, are most fitting only for the ordained.

Were those quotes taken from Phatmass? If yes, that would hardly be surprising, since most there aren't liberal Catholics.

It really is odd hearing those sorts of justifications coming from people nowadays though. Makes you wonder if in fact the date is centuries off.

I get the impression however that people are leaning less and less on rituals and ancient and outdated traditions. I'm curious to see what will happen to Catholicism in about 50 years...

[Sweetdeath]

Hopefully in the next few decades religion as we know, and its ridiculous  rituals; which include prayer, attending mass, etc, will be extinct.

[xSilverPhinx]

Yes, you CAN consent as an adult, but trust , being raised in a highly secist religion... It is hard to break away from that way of thought.
At a young age, especially likr 6/7, yout personally is developing.  Teaching a child acceptance, tolerance and diversity is crutial for their skills going into young teenage year.

Hundreds of millions of people around the world belong to the Catholic church. They get brought up seeing this as acceptable behaviour.
I am just amazed that my own country allows this organisation to practice sexism in my own country, when clearly it is against the law. But it seems that every country lets them do this, despite their own laws.

Yeah...I think that just about sums up the worst problem that this topic brings, but once again, legally interfering with an institution as powerful as the Catholic Church is easier said than done. You're basically telling millions of people how they should practice their religion of choice (or indoctrinated "choice", but they can still leave if they want to).

The way I see it, if people want to have bigoted opinions, that's their problem as long as those thoughts don't leave the realm of their heads and actually negatively affect other people outside their religious clubs. When those kids who have been indirectly taught that sexism is ok grow up and run companies of their own, or have to deal with a diverse group of people, they're subject to secular law.  I think it's an important distinction to make.

I think that the fact that some people are splitting off the Catholic Church and opening more liberal (and heretic) churches of their own with female priests as a good sign. These things are very slow to change, especially when dealing with religion. It only evolves when it's been gasping for air for decades and close to death.  

[Stevil]

Hmm I'm wondering the logistics of something though. The Catholic religion here is ran by the Vatican over there. Each country is different. And what might be not ok here is ok there. Especially when the edicts are coming directly from Da Pope! 

There are many globally dispersed organisations/companies, the non-religious ones must abide by the laws of the country that they are operating within, as well as the country whose stock exchange they are listed on.
In my opinion religion does not override the authority of government. I don't abide by the stance of status quo and certainly don't think anyone should be held above the law.

[Stevil]

I wanted to know specifically what things you want to see change. And are the things you want to see change the things they want to see change?

Quite frankly I don't care whether the church or the congregation want these changes or not.

I want to see my government upholding the law for everyone.
I want church authorities to be held accountable for sexist policies, be it with regards to employment of staff for ministerial positions, teaching positions or any other position, or even with regards to selecting children for volunteer work as alter servers etc.
This accountability should have consequences suitable under the laws of my country and should encompass all discrimination, not just sexism.

If the government deem it important enough to create and enforce anti discrimination laws within our society then these rules should also apply to any religious outfit operating within this society.

[fyv0h]

Hopefully in the next few decades religion as we know, and its ridiculous  rituals; which include prayer, attending mass, etc, will be extinct.

Care to place a wager on how long they last? How about dinner at that Serendipity place? I DO love how it seems that (the smarter part of) the world seems to be migrating toward some form of agnosticism. Except Texas. But they're slower about most things.   

[Sweetdeath]

Hopefully in the next few decades religion as we know, and its ridiculous  rituals; which include prayer, attending mass, etc, will be extinct.

Care to place a wager on how long they last? How about dinner at that Serendipity place? I DO love how it seems that (the smarter part of) the world seems to be migrating toward some form of agnosticism. Except Texas. But they're slower about most things.   

Haha! Sure.
I would love to see it happen before I die.  Realistically I say it's going to take another 30 years or so.   So hopefully before 2050.
Serendipity better still be around.