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Arguing with Xtian Fundangelicals

Started by Sandra Craft, March 28, 2018, 08:30:30 PM

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Sandra Craft

Probably applies to any kind of fundangelical (fundamentalist/evangelical -- because despite what they say, there isn't much real difference between them), but I'm only familiar with Xtian ones.  Anyway, I found this an interesting article and helpful for those of us who wind up in arguments with fundangelicals.  Whether we want to be or not.

QuoteSo know this when you talk to an evangelical: in attempting to persuade them to your point of view—even on a topic that seems minor to you—you're not asking for them to change their mind, you're asking them to punch a hole in the fabric of their reality, to begin the process of destroying their world. And, as anyone who has had the experience knows, world-destroying is not fun. It is, frankly, terrifying.

When you argue with a Fundamentalist, you don't know what you're asking for
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Icarus

Thank you for that link Sandy.  I find it at least worth a few minutes of reading time. 

The part that simply boggles my mind is that the Fundangelicals are so certain that the bible has some authority or historical relevance.  Their bible is the most popular book on earth but it is about as reliable a reference as is Harry Potter or Grimm's fairy tales.  Uncle Remus fairy tales at least usually had good outcomes. The biblical fairy tale will consign my poor apostate carcass into purgatory....yours too.....and more than a few of the fundangelicals who misbehave with his sister in law.

Several years ago I became interested in the actual history of the Christian bible.  The more I researched, the more I became aware that it is indeed a compendium of human inventions. Jesus of the bible himself....or herself, as the case may be, has a better than 50/50 chance of being a mythical character who was never famous or revered until a snake oil salesman named Paul (Saul)  hustled the notion of Jesus as a divine presence.   Sheeesh! Some of the Ultra religious types do fervently believe that Jesus was God and they are more than ready, (they believe that their destiny is involved) to condemn those who do not ascribe to their belief, to the fires of hell .

Sandy has made a new word: Fundavangelicals........Here is my new word contribution,  it is "crockashit".

MadBomr101

Interesting article. Offers an insight into a mindset that is completely foreign to me. I can't even begin to understand how evangelicals think.
- Bomr
I'm waiting for the movie of my life to be made.  It should cost about $7.23 and that includes the budget for special effects.

Sandra Craft

I have a hard time coming to grips with it too, and I was raised in far right Protestant churches.  Looks like I was fortunate to have most of it just go right over my head.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Madbunny

There are really only a couple ways to 'argue' with an evangelical (I'll use that word rather than the hybrid at the OP, its easier).


The first, and arguably more successful way to do it is to create a connection.
I may get into it more later, but ultimately most people want to see themselves as the 'hero' of their own story, so they'll edit in their own mind what they think of others based on teh connections they have with those people.  Thats how you wind up with super racist people who have that one or two black friends (as an example).

Tertiary to that, if they can imagine themselves, and the people they love in their endgame scenario then you may be able to get them to empathize with the ideas presented.

A long time ago, a forum member that I had a great deal of respect for (CMarie) from another site asked the question: (paraphrased, its been a long time)

If you're a believer, and go to heaven when you die, but the people you love, such as a wife or child are bound for hell, can you still say that you're in heaven, knowing that they're being tortured in the lake of fire for all eternity?

The other way is to not get into any of that stuff at all and get them trying to explain away their little loopholes and absurdities.
Example: getting a tattoo that says 'never sin'.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Bluenose

Many years ago my sister and b.i.l. went overseas for a couple of months and a friend of my sisters house sat for them.  I mowed the lawns and came over to attend to minor repairs etc and generally had a cup of tea with the house sitter.  She was a born again xtian and we had a few friendly discussions, I certainly did not try to show her the error of her ways and she did not try to convert me, so good so far, but we did have a couple of conversations about life, the universe and everything.  One day I mentioned that I did not believe in an after life and she asked me what I would think if when I died I found out there was one.  I replied that I would be disappointed. This was not the reply she was expecting and she asked me why.  I explained that it meant that the universe was more complicated than it needed to be.  She told me she had never met anyone like me and that I had given her some food for thought.  I have no idea whether that little seed of an idea grew into anything but I do occasionally wonder.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Old Seer

I gone through 4 rangles so far with "born again creationists". The last was This last Feb. 10th. I spent the winter at Quartzsite AZ and do a bit of prospecting and geology. I camp at the BLM over winter camp area about 2 miles South on Hiway 95. One morning I uped and tooked off to a mountain East of the camp area to do my thing. I parked near the mountain and got out of the truck. There were a Couple (probably man and wife). I had to pass them to get into the wash (dry creek) and we got to talking. The lady found a small piece of Calcedony and I informed her what it was. I pointed out that it's a gemstone type and got to explaining how it was formed. In the process of explanation I got into how millions of years ago----etc etc and---whambo, that did it. They said---we believe the planet is only 6000 years old. So I asked--Are yous creationist born agains, they were. I said, well from what I understand Biblical Creation isn't about the forming of a material universe, but rather a Psychological construction, meaning it's the formation of a person and that's why it doesn't match with physics. And---you can guess what took place after that. I stood there and ---went through a number of "yes buts and not so,s and tried to explain my end--but nada. As they walked away back to their camp they were still yelling at me 100 yards away.  I shrugged and went about my geology. Temper temper temper. They suddenly were reborn alright.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
I'm not a Theist.

Icarus

Leeonard Mladinow has a new book titled: Elastic.  It is an exploration into the minds of humans. He writes about the different levels of brain activity.  The brain activity that lets us walk is operating in the background, sorta' like the windows operating system on my computer.We are not conscious of that kind of brain work.   

Then there is the next level of activity that requires some degree of though processing. Participating in a conversation or typing this message for example.  I am thinking but not getting out of my comfort zone.  I am merely using some words to communicate some idea, reveal a bit of news, or describe the dinner I had this evening.  I can also operate at the same level when I read.  Never out of my zone of familiarity, never straying from the products of my experience or belief system. 

If I allow my brain....not so much allow, but encourage my brain to take a flyer, I am being creative, maybe curious about something, or attempting to solve a problem, think creatively.....then I am practicing thought plasticity or as the author calls it, elastic brain.  Not every one is capable of getting into that frame of mind and some may be capable but unwilling.

Straying from the familiar or  engaging in thoughts that are not in keeping with what we think we know is painful for some people. We can call that closed mindedness or the absence of cerebral elasticity.  It should be obvious that the likes of James Clerk Maxwell, Galileo, William Gilbert, Aristotle, and the rest,  did have the ability and the desire to depart from the normal mode of thinking.  They permitted themselves or even forced themselves to "think out of the box".

You can see where Mladinow is going with this concept can't you?  In the context of this thread we can recognize that the Fundies are the ones who are either incapable or unwilling to flex their brain....elasticity is not available to everyone it would seem.  If that is so, then trying to reason with a committed believer is an exercise in futility.

I heard of this book, and the line of thought that is included in the book, from an NPR program called On Point.  Mladinow was the guest on the program that has people call in to ask questions or state their own point of view about the subject.  I was fascinated for the entire hour. Now I will have to buy the damned book.  The feedback at Amazon gives the book 4.5 stars.




xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 28, 2018, 08:30:30 PM
Probably applies to any kind of fundangelical (fundamentalist/evangelical -- because despite what they say, there isn't much real difference between them), but I'm only familiar with Xtian ones.  Anyway, I found this an interesting article and helpful for those of us who wind up in arguments with fundangelicals.  Whether we want to be or not.

QuoteSo know this when you talk to an evangelical: in attempting to persuade them to your point of view—even on a topic that seems minor to you—you're not asking for them to change their mind, you're asking them to punch a hole in the fabric of their reality, to begin the process of destroying their world. And, as anyone who has had the experience knows, world-destroying is not fun. It is, frankly, terrifying.

When you argue with a Fundamentalist, you don't know what you're asking for

That short article is very interesting, and to the point. I've had some former evangelicals tell me that they see existence as a whole through those filters, that god is interwoven into the fabric of their reality, and there are mental 'defence mechanisms' in place to counter any incoming attack from people they perceive to be outsiders. The devil testing them, spiritual warfare, etc. are all there to give them easy answers to why people are attacking their beliefs and let them brush off counter-arguments and evidence like they were nothing.

Don't like that there are fossils scattered around the world that falsify creationism? Easy, the devil placed them there to test your faith. Hate it that there is no mention of creationism in school science textbooks? That's because the government and scientists are in league with the devil, trying to get the Lord's sheep to stray from their path.

It's all cult tactics that have been tried, tested and enhanced through the centuries. Religious thought is like a virus, and the human mind is a great host.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Icarus on March 29, 2018, 10:20:50 PM
Leeonard Mladinow has a new book titled: Elastic.  It is an exploration into the minds of humans. He writes about the different levels of brain activity.  The brain activity that lets us walk is operating in the background, sorta' like the windows operating system on my computer.We are not conscious of that kind of brain work.   

Then there is the next level of activity that requires some degree of though processing. Participating in a conversation or typing this message for example.  I am thinking but not getting out of my comfort zone.  I am merely using some words to communicate some idea, reveal a bit of news, or describe the dinner I had this evening.  I can also operate at the same level when I read.  Never out of my zone of familiarity, never straying from the products of my experience or belief system. 

If I allow my brain....not so much allow, but encourage my brain to take a flyer, I am being creative, maybe curious about something, or attempting to solve a problem, think creatively.....then I am practicing thought plasticity or as the author calls it, elastic brain.  Not every one is capable of getting into that frame of mind and some may be capable but unwilling.

Straying from the familiar or  engaging in thoughts that are not in keeping with what we think we know is painful for some people. We can call that closed mindedness or the absence of cerebral elasticity.  It should be obvious that the likes of James Clerk Maxwell, Galileo, William Gilbert, Aristotle, and the rest,  did have the ability and the desire to depart from the normal mode of thinking.  They permitted themselves or even forced themselves to "think out of the box".

You can see where Mladinow is going with this concept can't you?  In the context of this thread we can recognize that the Fundies are the ones who are either incapable or unwilling to flex their brain....elasticity is not available to everyone it would seem.  If that is so, then trying to reason with a committed believer is an exercise in futility.

I heard of this book, and the line of thought that is included in the book, from an NPR program called On Point.  Mladinow was the guest on the program that has people call in to ask questions or state their own point of view about the subject.  I was fascinated for the entire hour. Now I will have to buy the damned book.  The feedback at Amazon gives the book 4.5 stars.

I've got to buy and read this! :grin: I've read his other book, Subliminal, which well worth the read. :bigspecs:
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Dragonia

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 28, 2018, 08:30:30 PM
Probably applies to any kind of fundangelical (fundamentalist/evangelical -- because despite what they say, there isn't much real difference between them), but I'm only familiar with Xtian ones.  Anyway, I found this an interesting article and helpful for those of us who wind up in arguments with fundangelicals.  Whether we want to be or not.

QuoteSo know this when you talk to an evangelical: in attempting to persuade them to your point of view—even on a topic that seems minor to you—you're not asking for them to change their mind, you're asking them to punch a hole in the fabric of their reality, to begin the process of destroying their world. And, as anyone who has had the experience knows, world-destroying is not fun. It is, frankly, terrifying.

When you argue with a Fundamentalist, you don't know what you're asking for

I like the quote you pulled out of the article. I relate very strongly to this article. And when the author says "you're asking them .... to begin the process of destroying their world." ---YES. For many of us, that is exactly what happens. Every answer we thought we knew, every reason  for every thing, every expectation about present and future, every belief about the past, every conviction, every action, every feeling, every response, every relationship..... they all have to be re-evaluated, re-formed. The foundations of your life must be destroyed and you must build new ones, built upon actual, rational reality.
And it can indeed be terrifying... and heart-wrenching.
I know it sounds a bit dramatic, but as someone who has been through it, I can tell you that it's way more dramatic than this. I'm not exaggerating, for some of our experiences anyway.
This is why I am very gentle and patient when talking to Christians; because I fully understand what I'm asking of them. And it almost makes me feel sad for them, although in most cases I doubt they'll ever change their minds, so I ignore my empathy.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Dragonia on April 01, 2018, 04:19:44 AM

I like the quote you pulled out of the article. I relate very strongly to this article. And when the author says "you're asking them .... to begin the process of destroying their world." ---YES. For many of us, that is exactly what happens. Every answer we thought we knew, every reason  for every thing, every expectation about present and future, every belief about the past, every conviction, every action, every feeling, every response, every relationship..... they all have to be re-evaluated, re-formed. The foundations of your life must be destroyed and you must build new ones, built upon actual, rational reality.
And it can indeed be terrifying... and heart-wrenching.
I know it sounds a bit dramatic, but as someone who has been through it, I can tell you that it's way more dramatic than this. I'm not exaggerating, for some of our experiences anyway.
This is why I am very gentle and patient when talking to Christians; because I fully understand what I'm asking of them. And it almost makes me feel sad for them, although in most cases I doubt they'll ever change their minds, so I ignore my empathy.

Yes, I've known former theists who were still grieving the loss of their faith years, even decades, afterwards.  Too many people tend to be very glib about the loss of faith when they haven't been thru it -- atheists assuming it's just a matter of reviewing the facts and changing ones mind, theists assuming there couldn't have been any real faith to begin with.  Both wrong.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany