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General => Pseudo-science, Conspiracy Theories, and Other Loads of Bull => Topic started by: manga on July 10, 2017, 04:35:18 AM

Title: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: manga on July 10, 2017, 04:35:18 AM
In 1977, Foreman participated in a boxing match in Puerto Rico against the skilled opponent Jimmy Young, The fight lasted for 12 rounds and resulted in Foreman losing in a decision. After the fight, Foreman returned to his hot, stuffy dressing room. The building's air-conditioning wasn't working that night, and it was intensely hot and smothering. Still running on adrenalin, Foreman paced back and forth in the room trying to cool down. Sweat pouring down his face and chest, he had never been so hot in his life. Suddenly, he was overcome with the fear that he was about to die. In Foreman's autobiography, God in My Corner: A Spiritual Memoir, Foreman wrote: "I had heard about boxers dying after big fights. Was I next? That's not going to happen to me! I assured myself." Then an otherworldly voice interrupted his thoughts, "You believe in God. Why are you afraid to die?" This voice only terrified Foreman even more. In fact, the heavy weight champion of the world said he had never been so afraid in his life. He believed in God, but not in religion which he thought was only for the "pitiful".

With death staring him in the face, Foreman had a life review where he saw "favorite things that had happened during my life, recalling them like a video tape running fast-forward, as though I knew somehow that it was about to end." At this point, Foreman was crying and trying to make a financial deal with the voice. Foreman was very rich at the time and he bargained that he would give his money to poor. The voice replied, "I don't want your money. I want YOU!" Finally, Foreman said, "God, I believe in You -- but not enough to die." It was then that Foreman collapsed to the floor and had an out-of-body experience. It was later determined he was suffering from exhausting and had a heatstroke.

God in My Corner: A Spiritual MemoirForeman described his NDE as follows: "Instantly I was transported into a deep, dark void, like a bottomless pit ... I was suspended in emptiness, with nothing over my head or under my feet ... This was a place of total isolation, cut off from everything and everyone ... It can only be described as a vacant space of extreme hopelessness ... I knew I was dead, and this wasn't heaven ... Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt ... Although I couldn't see anyone, I was aware of other people in this terrible place -- The place reeked with the putrid smell of death ... This place was a vacuum without light, love, or happiness ... In that place, I had no hope for tomorrow -- or of ever getting out."

Then Foreman screamed with all his might, "I don't care if this is death. I still believe there's a God!" Instantly, what appeared to be a gigantic hand reached down into the darkness and pulled Foreman out of the void. With that, he suddenly found himself back in his body on the table in the dressing room. He awoke with great joy! He was no longer in hell; and God had rescued him. While on the table, Foreman suddenly had a vision of Jesus standing over him, thorns on his head, and blood dripping on Foreman's head. Upon seeing this, Foreman described an intense born-again experience: "Every hostile emotion had been drained out of me, and a spigot of God's love had been turned on inside me, filling me up, and overflowing out of me." To the total surprise of everyone in the dressing room, Foreman suddenly sat straight up and yelled at the top of his lungs, "Jesus Christ is coming alive in me!" Jumping off the table and overcome with an intense love for everyone, Foreman then hugged everyone in the room -- telling them how much he loved them. Everyone, most of whom had known Foreman for years, didn't know what to think about this unusual behavior. It was so out of character for him; he wouldn't stop talking about Jesus, and no one could shut him up. He was now praising the name of Jesus, the name everyone had only heard him use in vain. His doctor / friend tried to explain it away by telling him, "George, you just got your bell rung."

Since his NDE, Foreman says he is no longer afraid of dying and has found great peace and happiness with himself and God. Foreman eventually stopped boxing and became an ordained minister, initially preaching on street corners before becoming the reverend at the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ in Houston and devoting himself to his family and his congregation. He also opened a youth center bearing his name. Foreman continues to share his conversion experience on Christian television broadcasts such as The 700 Club and the Trinity Broadcasting Network and later joked that Jimmy Young had knocked the devil out of him. Watch a YouTube video presentation of George Foreman discussing his NDE.

There seems to be quite a few hellish ndes which are really similar, calling out to God/Jesus, seeing a light or a hand that rescues them. DOes this give any credence to hell?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 10, 2017, 04:41:07 AM
Sounds like what happens when you exhaust your body of fuel and then send it into overtime. Lots of chemicals going around.

Plus George Foreman got his head rattled around a lot. Right?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: manga on July 10, 2017, 04:55:27 AM
Sounds like what happens when you exhaust your body of fuel and then send it into overtime. Lots of chemicals going around.

Plus George Foreman got his head rattled around a lot. Right?

yes, but the fact that so many of these reports of hell are so similar with dakrness, until a person calls to God or Jesus for help scares me, I have read 4-5 reports that sound so similar. What do you think are the odds from this that hell is real?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 10, 2017, 05:53:47 AM
Quote
What do you think are the odds from this that hell is real?

I don't know. But if there is a hell, it will be filled with people just like me so win-win. I'll be ok lol
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Tank on July 10, 2017, 06:45:07 AM
I've told you I have had an NDE and can explain it. You singularly ignored me last time. Are you going to ignore me again?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: hermes2015 on July 10, 2017, 08:23:44 AM
I've told you I have had an NDE and can explain it. You singularly ignored me last time. Are you going to ignore me again?

I think we should all ignore him; perhaps he'll go away and stop wasting the time of people who respond in good faith.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Claireliontamer on July 10, 2017, 10:29:13 AM
Sounds like what happens when you exhaust your body of fuel and then send it into overtime. Lots of chemicals going around.

Plus George Foreman got his head rattled around a lot. Right?

yes, but the fact that so many of these reports of hell are so similar with dakrness, until a person calls to God or Jesus for help scares me, I have read 4-5 reports that sound so similar. What do you think are the odds from this that hell is real?

4-5 reports out of the billions of people that have ever lived is really insignificant.  So if you're looking at this from an odds POV then I'd say the chance hell is real is pretty slim. 
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 10, 2017, 02:37:47 PM
After reading this load of crap I want to return my George Foreman Grill.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 10, 2017, 05:19:34 PM
What do you think are the odds from this that hell is real?
I'd bet my eternal soul for all eternity that hell does not exist.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 10, 2017, 09:50:18 PM
I've told you I have had an NDE and can explain it. You singularly ignored me last time. Are you going to ignore me again?

I think we should all ignore him; perhaps he'll go away and stop wasting the time of people who respond in good faith.

:this:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 10, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
This thread by manga looks an awful lot like this other thread on a totally different forum by pork222. ::)

Atheist Republic (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/thoughts-george-foreman-nde-conversion)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 10, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
This thread by manga looks an awful lot like this other thread on a totally different forum by pork222. ::)

Atheist Republic (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/thoughts-george-foreman-nde-conversion)


Do pork and mango go well together? :notsure:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: solidsquid on July 10, 2017, 10:55:50 PM
Here's how the process goes:

1) manga posts some near death story - all anecdotal evidence and often second hand or even secondary sourcing. 
2) Asks us to explain it.
3) Others at HAF offer plausible explanations regarding the biological mechanisms at work with NDEs, attempt to postulate explanations given what is known about the process within the context of the story
4) manga tosses out a bunch of "buts" and "what ifs"
5) Others at HAF retort
6) manga abandons the thread eventually posting another NDE story in another thread

This has become the formula.

manga, believe whatever you want as is doesn't seem you actually wish to entertain explanations for the phenomena you are discussing.  You seem to be more driven by confirmation bias.  If you want to believe in life after death, heaven, hell, and so forth, fine but don't keep coming here and wasting people's time with the above discussion pattern.  It's ridiculous and frustrating.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 10, 2017, 11:00:26 PM
I don't get manga. On one hand it seems he or she doesn't want to believe all that but on the other keeps looking for reasons to believe.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 10, 2017, 11:19:36 PM
I can see this being a 7 year old trolling

"Heheheh I made them exercise critical thinking again!"
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 10, 2017, 11:42:46 PM
The topic of NDE and proof of hell, again?
Sure...
Yes...
Of course...
(http://i.imgur.com/4bUV7Ls.gif)
OK.
Thank you...
Good bye.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 10, 2017, 11:47:32 PM
This is manga around here:  :snicker:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/DbSZni6xAW2Ws/giphy.gif)
Manga, why do you like to hang out with us so much?  :lol:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Pasta Chick on July 11, 2017, 03:00:34 AM
Same advice I give to everyone who shows up here who is absolutely obsessed with a specific topic:

Just stop. Chill. Relax. Interact with the forum on a casual level. Watch and listen and learn of other ideas.

If you can't stop, seek mental health care. This is not normal, it is not healthy, and it will not go away on its own.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 11, 2017, 04:09:57 AM
(https://scontent.fpoa4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19990199_10155312992075155_1686844510057116057_n.jpg?oh=9ad9741d823e38c0e3c2e91abfa3ed0c&oe=5A09B5BC)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 11, 2017, 07:13:17 AM
This thread by manga looks an awful lot like this other thread on a totally different forum by pork222. ::)

Atheist Republic (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/thoughts-george-foreman-nde-conversion)


Do pork and mango go well together? :notsure:

They pair beautifully.  Explains a lot here.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 11, 2017, 07:25:09 AM
manga, believe whatever you want as is doesn't seem you actually wish to entertain explanations for the phenomena you are discussing.  You seem to be more driven by confirmation bias.  If you want to believe in life after death, heaven, hell, and so forth, fine but don't keep coming here and wasting people's time with the above discussion pattern.  It's ridiculous and frustrating.

manga's explanation of his behavior has been that he doesn't want to believe in Hell, but he's so terrified of the thought of it that he can't stop worrying about it maybe being real.

In addition to therapy, which I think is an excellent and practical idea, some of us have suggested just going along with Xtianity and taking whatever steps they recommend to avoid Hell.  He'll still be obsessed but with any luck he'll be less frightened, which is always good.  I would suggest Catholicism -- they're the original Xtians, after all, and generally seem more accepting of worshipers having doubts. 

But I don't think manga will make any more use of that than of any of our other suggestions.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 11, 2017, 02:02:32 PM
This thread by manga looks an awful lot like this other thread on a totally different forum by pork222. ::)

Atheist Republic (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/thoughts-george-foreman-nde-conversion)


Do pork and mango go well together? :notsure:

Yes I can see them pairing quite nicely together,..in fact how about tacos of spicy shredded pork, topped off with a nice mango salsa and some shredded goat cheese?

Fucking Yummy!
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 11, 2017, 03:24:02 PM
manga, believe whatever you want as is doesn't seem you actually wish to entertain explanations for the phenomena you are discussing.  You seem to be more driven by confirmation bias.  If you want to believe in life after death, heaven, hell, and so forth, fine but don't keep coming here and wasting people's time with the above discussion pattern.  It's ridiculous and frustrating.

manga's explanation of his behavior has been that he doesn't want to believe in Hell, but he's so terrified of the thought of it that he can't stop worrying about it maybe being real.

In addition to therapy, which I think is an excellent and practical idea, some of us have suggested just going along with Xtianity and taking whatever steps they recommend to avoid Hell.  He'll still be obsessed but with any luck he'll be less frightened, which is always good.  I would suggest Catholicism -- they're the original Xtians, after all, and generally seem more accepting of worshipers having doubts. 

But I don't think manga will make any more use of that than of any of our other suggestions.
But what if manga believes in the wrong god? In the wrong version of Xtianity? Then manga is still going to hell!
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 11, 2017, 07:14:07 PM
But what if manga believes in the wrong god? In the wrong version of Xtianity? Then manga is still going to hell!

His obsession seems entirely focused on the Xtian Hell, so even if introduced to the concepts of Naraka, Helheim, Tartarus, Mictlan, etc., I don't think he'd consider those worth wasting time on.  A pity he can't take that one step further.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 11, 2017, 08:17:39 PM
But what if manga believes in the wrong god? In the wrong version of Xtianity? Then manga is still going to hell!

His obsession seems entirely focused on the Xtian Hell, so even if introduced to the concepts of Naraka, Helheim, Tartarus, Mictlan, etc., I don't think he'd consider those worth wasting time on.  A pity he can't take that one step further.
Still, which Christian hell? Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Evangelical, Baptist... if manga chooses the wrong version of Christianity... hoo boy.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 11, 2017, 08:37:31 PM
But what if manga believes in the wrong god? In the wrong version of Xtianity? Then manga is still going to hell!

His obsession seems entirely focused on the Xtian Hell, so even if introduced to the concepts of Naraka, Helheim, Tartarus, Mictlan, etc., I don't think he'd consider those worth wasting time on.  A pity he can't take that one step further.
Still, which Christian hell? Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Evangelical, Baptist... if manga chooses the wrong version of Christianity... hoo boy.

sigh  You're right.  There's so much hair-splitting in religion.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 11, 2017, 09:51:17 PM
Maybe manga is doing this for attention? :chin:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 11, 2017, 09:56:27 PM
Maybe manga is doing this for attention? :chin:

It's possible. However I think that he or she is just troubled and can't stop obsessing over NDEs, the afterlife and hell. 
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 11, 2017, 10:08:29 PM
Maybe manga is doing this for attention? :chin:

It's possible. However I think that he or she is just troubled and can't stop obsessing over NDEs, the afterlife and hell.

Maybe that is a concern and response she gets from posting these ndes on Athiest forums reinforces her desire for attention?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Pasta Chick on July 12, 2017, 12:50:43 AM
There are a lot of ways to get loads more attention on more frequent and sustainable basis than posting about the same obscure topic over and over.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: No one on July 12, 2017, 01:19:24 AM
Consistency is key.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 12, 2017, 02:34:51 AM
Yeah, it's the "over and over" part that makes me think that manga is a troubled individual. I could be wrong, but to me it's more plausible that manga has obsessive tendencies and is caught in a hell-death-I must survive-hell-death-I must survive-hell-death-I must survive loop rather than intentionally trolling for sympathy or negative attention.

Anyway, that is how I perceive it.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: manga on July 12, 2017, 05:43:48 AM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 12, 2017, 06:41:51 AM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\
OK. I think it's clear now, to most of us, that you are afraid.  :shifty:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: hermes2015 on July 12, 2017, 06:48:52 AM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\
OK. I think it's clear now, to most of us, that you are afraid.  :shifty:

No, I think I have said this before about him/her or perhaps that other poster whose name escapes me: this person is not scared, but has a hidden agenda and is a crypto preacher.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 12, 2017, 06:59:18 AM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\
OK. I think it's clear now, to most of us, that you are afraid.  :shifty:

No, I think I have said this before about him/her or perhaps that other poster whose name escapes me: this person is not scared, but has a hidden agenda and is a crypto preacher.

Are you thinking of Pahu?

Anyway...

Maybe you're right about manga, he's/she's a terrified-crypto-preacher-with a hidden agenda.  ;D
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: hermes2015 on July 12, 2017, 08:15:55 AM
Are you thinking of Pahu?

Anyway...

Maybe you're right about manga, he's/she's a terrified-crypto-preacher-with a hidden agenda.  ;D

Oh, yes, that's the forgettable name. But then I am 71 now!
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 12, 2017, 08:48:27 AM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, etc

Then I think you should be talking to a priest, not us.  There's obviously nothing we can do for you.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: hermes2015 on July 12, 2017, 08:55:25 AM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, etc

Then I think you should be talking to a priest, not us.  There's obviously nothing we can do for you.

An excellent suggestion. I can recommend Father Bruno. He is very kind, gentle, and sympathetic.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Pasta Chick on July 12, 2017, 10:51:20 AM
Obviously if you go to a site that supports the existence of NDEs, you are going to find support for NDEs.

How much time have you spent obsessively pouring over all of the science-based resources HAFers have provided for you? Noting that these are not anti-NDE sites - NDEs are a real phenomenon - there's simply no credible evidence supporting their happening because of a soul going to heaven/hell.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Claireliontamer on July 12, 2017, 11:35:16 AM
Manga, you sound like a very troubled individual.  Please get some professional help over this.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Recusant on July 12, 2017, 01:09:14 PM
. . . then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he . . .

Like pretty much every other person who pushes (and profits from) pseudo-scientific wibble, it looks like Tsakris is a dishonest shitbird (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alex_Tsakiris).

Lack of integrity on the part of people pushing these NDE/OBE narratives has been pointed out in other threads on this topic. Some of them may be on the up-and-up, but the field is rife with charlatans while charlatans with more diverse portfolios seem happy to include NDE/OBE in their spooky bags of tricks. If I were seriously investigating the topic, I'd take a clue when I noticed I was coming across horseshit on a regular basis.



Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 12, 2017, 01:13:53 PM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, etc

Then I think you should be talking to a priest, not us.  There's obviously nothing we can do for you.

An excellent suggestion. I can recommend Father Bruno. He is very kind, gentle, and sympathetic.
Thanks Books 8) As I appreciate anyone here at HAF sending me referrals, Priest biz has been meh lately....


This thread by manga looks an awful lot like this other thread on a totally different forum by pork222. ::)

Atheist Republic (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/thoughts-george-foreman-nde-conversion)


Oddly enough it also looks quite similar to this one by a poster named Kamil at SKEPTIC (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&p=589233) !

And check out Kamil's response to another post in that thread:
Quote
I am really starting to become skeptical of certain religious things, but this fear keeps coming back. I am deathy afraid of any potential afterlife, and I know for the most part that we cannot rule out the brain, and it is premature to definitely assert that a soul that like Mathew always says that is non physical can perceive light and hear things. I get that. However, my priest knows that lately I've been questioning, and he sent me some of these Christian videos of people seeing hell. I have seen quite a few maybe 5-6 where a person (usually not too religious) will have an NDE or some sort of health issue, and suddenly see absolute darkness, maybe hear people screaming, some report seeing demons, etc. They say the place is in complete isolation from other things and they feel really sad. Then, they call out to God or Jesus and get rescued. The hand pulling one out of hell for example is common across these NDEs. Does that not at all scare you?

Weird, it's like the same person, or maybe guys it's some type of out of body, out of mind, cross forum ethereal posting experience?

Or CFEPE as we like to say in the biz, what do you guys think?


edited to fix link to Skeptic page, and to also mention that all three of these NDE's stories regarding Foreman were posted on 7/9 and 7/10/17. (One here, one at Atheist Republic, and one at Skeptic).
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Essie Mae on July 12, 2017, 02:22:50 PM
Well I don't know what to think as I don't belong to any other forums so I don't have any other experience of this sort of post. All I can say is that there were times as a Christian, (Baptist) that I was mortally afraid for my 'soul' because I wasn't good enough. The fact that in the church's eyes I had married a non-Christian, (he is a nominal believer and would identify as C of E which I think is like episcopalian in the US), weighed on me very heavily and gave me a great deal of unhappiness and real fear. So I can understand the fear, but whether it's genuine or not I couldn't say. Religion is a vile, oppressive force for evil IMO.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 12, 2017, 02:33:59 PM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\

Have you talked to your family about this? Have you sought professional help? Whether this sort of intense fear is normal I can't say, having never been religious, but if you do have something like intrusive thoughts or OCD you really ought to seek treatment. Looks like your life is being negatively impacted by your fears.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 12, 2017, 03:29:54 PM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, etc

Then I think you should be talking to a priest, not us.  There's obviously nothing we can do for you.

An excellent suggestion. I can recommend Father Bruno. He is very kind, gentle, and sympathetic.
Thanks Books 8) As I appreciate anyone here at HAF sending me referrals, Priest biz has been meh lately....


This thread by manga looks an awful lot like this other thread on a totally different forum by pork222. ::)

Atheist Republic (http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/thoughts-george-foreman-nde-conversion)


Oddly enough it also looks quite similar to this one by a poster named Kamil at SKEPTIC (http://SKEPTIC (logo)) !

And check out Kamil's response to another post in that thread:
Quote
I am really starting to become skeptical of certain religious things, but this fear keeps coming back. I am deathy afraid of any potential afterlife, and I know for the most part that we cannot rule out the brain, and it is premature to definitely assert that a soul that like Mathew always says that is non physical can perceive light and hear things. I get that. However, my priest knows that lately I've been questioning, and he sent me some of these Christian videos of people seeing hell. I have seen quite a few maybe 5-6 where a person (usually not too religious) will have an NDE or some sort of health issue, and suddenly see absolute darkness, maybe hear people screaming, some report seeing demons, etc. They say the place is in complete isolation from other things and they feel really sad. Then, they call out to God or Jesus and get rescued. The hand pulling one out of hell for example is common across these NDEs. Does that not at all scare you?

Weird, it's like the same person, or maybe guys it's some type of out of body, out of mind, cross forum ethereal posting experience?

Or CFEPE as we like to say in the biz, what do you guys think?

If it's the same post in every forum can we assume it's a bot? And in the case of it being a bot I suppose it's okay to ban them, correct?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 12, 2017, 05:10:09 PM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\
Did you listen to anything said to you? It doesn't look like it. You keep repeating things that we've debunked several times already and instead of engaging directly with what we said about it, you just ignore it and act like the bullshit you keep repeating is true. So many times people have explained to you how a brain coming back from dying starts to create memories that seem to come from when the brain was less active, and also that the brain will fill in details in faulty memories to try to make sense of them. Any neurosurgeon worth anything will know that. But like is your track record, you will concede by refusing to engage, but then act like you didn't.

If your intention is to dishonestly trick some here into fearing hell, it's not going to work. The active users here are fairly experienced with this shit.

You're not scaring us and your lack of logic is not going to convince us. What will convince us, is to bring something substantial and to actually engage in conversation. Since there is no reliable evidence for this, many attempt to persuade by fear instead of using facts and logic. If you're not going to use facts and logic, then you're wasting your time here.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 13, 2017, 06:57:50 AM
Oh, yes, that's the forgettable name. But then I am 71 now!

Spoiler: show
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/82/44/b9/8244b98e291c1fd53a7f5024d6f40a31.jpg)

 :nu-uh:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Recusant on July 13, 2017, 10:38:17 AM
If it's the same post in every forum can we assume it's a bot? And in the case of it being a bot I suppose it's okay to ban them, correct?

People are just as capable of copy-pasting as bots. We don't have any rule against members of this site posting things here that have been posted elsewhere and manga has engaged with discussions in their threads, rather than just posting and ignoring responses.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 13, 2017, 02:28:11 PM
I've been thinking about this, and all joking aside what if we are wrong and there is a heaven and hell? I mean even if I wasn't an atheist and believed in god it's not like I've led anything approaching a good life.

I mean to be honest my list of sins or transgressions against the almighty would be pretty long indeed.

I've been extremely blasphemous my entire life, fornicated and carried on like crazy when I was young, spent more Sabbath or Sunday's partying and drunk than I can even remember. Plus I'm pro-abortion, support gay-marriage, voted twice for the anti-christ himself, that christian-hating muslim Obama as well as Hillary in the last election.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, believe me...I'm fucking screwed. Even if I were to start believing now I'm fairly certain I've already got a place reserved for me in hell, regardless of how many times I scream out Jesus's name while I'm dying.

Do you think we'll get any respite, I mean does hell have to be forever? Or can I get some time off for good behavior?

Seriously, if there is a hell I'm fucked.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 13, 2017, 02:53:26 PM
I've been thinking about this, and all joking aside what if we are wrong and there is a heaven and hell? I mean even if I wasn't an atheist and believed in god it's not like I've led anything approaching a good life.

I mean to be honest my list of sins or transgressions against the almighty would be pretty long indeed.

I've been extremely blasphemous my entire life, fornicated and carried on like crazy when I was young, spent more Sabbath or Sunday's partying and drunk than I can even remember. Plus I'm pro-abortion, support gay-marriage, voted twice for the anti-christ himself, that christian-hating muslim Obama as well as Hillary in the last election.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, believe me...I'm fucking screwed. Even if I were to start believing now I'm fairly certain I've already got a place reserved for me in hell, regardless of how many times I scream out Jesus's name while I'm dying.

Do you think we'll get any respite, I mean does hell have to be forever? Or can I get some time off for good behavior?

Seriously, if there is a hell I'm fucked.
It reminds me of the lyrics of a song:

Quote
God is dead, and no one cares.
If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Actually, I like the whole song.

Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 13, 2017, 02:54:33 PM
I'd bet all the best people are in hell.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 13, 2017, 03:25:59 PM
I've been thinking about this, and all joking aside what if we are wrong and there is a heaven and hell? I mean even if I wasn't an atheist and believed in god it's not like I've led anything approaching a good life.

I mean to be honest my list of sins or transgressions against the almighty would be pretty long indeed.

I've been extremely blasphemous my entire life, fornicated and carried on like crazy when I was young, spent more Sabbath or Sunday's partying and drunk than I can even remember. Plus I'm pro-abortion, support gay-marriage, voted twice for the anti-christ himself, that christian-hating muslim Obama as well as Hillary in the last election.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, believe me...I'm fucking screwed. Even if I were to start believing now I'm fairly certain I've already got a place reserved for me in hell, regardless of how many times I scream out Jesus's name while I'm dying.

Do you think we'll get any respite, I mean does hell have to be forever? Or can I get some time off for good behavior?

Seriously, if there is a hell I'm fucked.
It reminds me of the lyrics of a song:

Quote
God is dead, and no one cares.
If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Actually, I like the whole song.


I've never seen that video before, thanks...and I agree excellent song.

I'd bet all the best people are in hell.

Sure us cool people will be there, along with some real scumbags, I mean some really nasty people...and what about eternal torture, with lakes of fire and never ending anguish?

Sounds horrible.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 13, 2017, 03:33:12 PM
Sure us cool people will be there, along with some real scumbags, I mean some really nasty people...and what about eternal torture, with lakes of fire and never ending anguish?

Sounds horrible.
But we're only hearing one side of it. Maybe Hell is an awesome place to live.

I mean, in Heaven, we're supposed go around praising god all the time... singing praises to god all the fucking time... for eternity. How does that sound appealing at all.

Meanwhile, down in Hell, people are doing what they want to do when they want to do it. And the people in Heaven want more people to be miserable like them. So in the 30 second breaks between singing one praise and the next, they work on sullying the name of Hell in the hopes that more people will fall for the Heaven scheme, so that they will eventually have enough people to stroke the god's ego that they'll be able to take five or even ten minute breaks every once in a while.

So I think that Hell isn't so bad, it's just been the subject of a smear campaign.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Claireliontamer on July 13, 2017, 05:07:54 PM
At least Hell will be warm and I hate being cold.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 13, 2017, 05:40:37 PM
It could be the South Park Hell, where the fires of damnation are used for nightly luaus.  In any case, I agree with Davin on this one -- the description of Heaven sounds even worse to me.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Velma on July 13, 2017, 07:05:02 PM
Knowing the people who are supposed to be in hell, by now the place is air conditioned, has perfect WiFi, better universities than any found on earth, massive libraries, unparalleled museums, and advances in science and technology far beyond what we have. There does seem to be a high percentage of doubters and outright unbelievers among people who are creative or have a scientific bent.

Plus, look at the behavior of the one who is supposed to be the "good guy" in the spiritual realm. His repertoire for dealing with misbehaving humans is to smite, curse, and kill them. His "unconditional" love comes with the condition "love me or I'll make sure you are tortured forever." If he was a human parent, his children would be in foster care. If he was a human demanding love in such a fashion, he'd be branded a stalker and have a restraining order placed on him. God's body count in the Bible runs in the millions. The only side of the story we have is what God supposedly inspired humans to write - and even in that version he comes off as a petty, despotic, dictator with just enough tiny flashes of kindness and mercy to give someone Stockholm syndrome.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: hermes2015 on July 13, 2017, 07:32:54 PM
Knowing the people who are supposed to be in hell, by now the place is air conditioned, has perfect WiFi, better universities than any found on earth, massive libraries, unparalleled museums, and advances in science and technology far beyond what we have. There does seem to be a high percentage of doubters and outright unbelievers among people who are creative or have a scientific bent.

Plus, look at the behavior of the one who is supposed to be the "good guy" in the spiritual realm. His repertoire for dealing with misbehaving humans is to smite, curse, and kill them. His "unconditional" love comes with the condition "love me or I'll make sure you are tortured forever." If he was a human parent, his children would be in foster care. If he was a human demanding love in such a fashion, he'd be branded a stalker and have a restraining order placed on him. God's body count in the Bible runs in the millions. The only side of the story we have is what God supposedly inspired humans to write - and even in that version he comes off as a petty, despotic, dictator with just enough tiny flashes of kindness and mercy to give someone Stockholm syndrome.

Velma, that is such a profound and articulate statement. I could not agree more - I only wish I had written that.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 13, 2017, 11:54:04 PM
Knowing the people who are supposed to be in hell, by now the place is air conditioned, has perfect WiFi, better universities than any found on earth, massive libraries, unparalleled museums, and advances in science and technology far beyond what we have. There does seem to be a high percentage of doubters and outright unbelievers among people who are creative or have a scientific bent.

Plus, look at the behavior of the one who is supposed to be the "good guy" in the spiritual realm. His repertoire for dealing with misbehaving humans is to smite, curse, and kill them. His "unconditional" love comes with the condition "love me or I'll make sure you are tortured forever." If he was a human parent, his children would be in foster care. If he was a human demanding love in such a fashion, he'd be branded a stalker and have a restraining order placed on him. God's body count in the Bible runs in the millions. The only side of the story we have is what God supposedly inspired humans to write - and even in that version he comes off as a petty, despotic, dictator with just enough tiny flashes of kindness and mercy to give someone Stockholm syndrome.

:golfclap:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Icarus on July 14, 2017, 01:40:51 AM
That was more than merely good Velma.  Profound!
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 14, 2017, 02:21:12 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/30/c7/43/30c743eb1fb0131d423dc4b7e4117f26.jpg)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 14, 2017, 02:23:45 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c2/fe/25/c2fe2545a70af56e92b6836cf8892ae3.jpg)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 14, 2017, 02:24:36 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fe/b4/24/feb424529a4145a1d97a66ec653fd04b--dragonball-z-book-jacket.jpg)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 14, 2017, 09:19:51 AM
These remind me of that old saying:  Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 14, 2017, 02:17:08 PM
Some of your comments have been somewhat comforting, but still what about the recurring theme in most NDE's about people who experience hell feeling as Foreman put it,... "Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt".

That's what scares me,...what if hell isn't a party place, but just a pit of despair?

Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 14, 2017, 02:48:29 PM
Some of your comments have been somewhat comforting, but still what about the recurring theme in most NDE's about people who experience hell feeling as Foreman put it,... "Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt".

That's what scares me,...what if hell isn't a party place, but just a pit of despair?

And heaven, as Velma described it, isn't a pit of despair? If it's a lose-lose situation then just forget it and enjoy life. :grin:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 14, 2017, 03:17:06 PM
Some of your comments have been somewhat comforting, but still what about the recurring theme in most NDE's about people who experience hell feeling as Foreman put it,... "Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt".

That's what scares me,...what if hell isn't a party place, but just a pit of despair?

And heaven, as Velma described it, isn't a pit of despair? If it's a lose-lose situation then just forget it and enjoy life. :grin:

Sorry, but as profound and articulate as Velma's statement was as far as I know she hasn't had an NDE, and those who have describe heaven most commonly as "...a place of exquisite beauty, not unlike the earth, with mountains, forests, flowers, and streams, yet alive in new dimensions of time and space—illuminated by a light that radiates life and love. Even a few NDErs who were blind from birth also “see” the same exquisite beauty. They describe this same mystical light that doesn’t shine on, but out of, everything, affirming the Bible’s explanation that there is no sun or moon in Heaven, but the glory of God is its light (Revelation 21:23-24).

I mean if given an option I'll take the latter, however. Do I still have an option left to me or is it simply to late for me, or is it possible for me to turn myself over to god still, repent for my sins, and ask to be forgiven for my many transgressions?

Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Davin on July 14, 2017, 04:23:14 PM
Some of your comments have been somewhat comforting, but still what about the recurring theme in most NDE's about people who experience hell feeling as Foreman put it,... "Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt".

That's what scares me,...what if hell isn't a party place, but just a pit of despair?
What if that was Heaven? I mean, people are told that Hell is the bad place and Heaven is the good, then people have "good" NDEs and associate that with Heaven, and have "bad" NDEs and associate that with Hell. But what if those are backwards? What if by following the god on blind faith is exactly what the god does not want. Maybe this world is a test, and those that fail by believing in things without evidence are dumped into the eternal trash which is Hell. And those that practice good skepticism and show a decent logical prowess pass the test and get into the good place.

And when did this switch from manga's thread to Bruno's?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 14, 2017, 10:08:23 PM
Someone posted this a while back, and it seems really appropriate to this discussion:

Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 14, 2017, 10:18:01 PM

I mean if given an option I'll take the latter, however. Do I still have an option left to me or is it simply to late for me, or is it possible for me to turn myself over to god still, repent for my sins, and ask to be forgiven for my many transgressions?

From what I was told, you can repent and accept Christ as your Savior on your deathbed and, as long as you're sincere and not just working the odds, that will be enough to get you into Heaven.

But here's my problem with that -- if I consider one improbable possibility, I feel I'll have to consider them all and . . . ugh.  If I consider that the Xtian myths about Heaven and Hell are the real ones, should I start looking for vampires to make myself physically immortal since that is the option I'd want, even with the restricted diet?  You see what I mean?  It's opening a can of worms based on nothing more than camp fire stories and I just don't have enough energy, or interest.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 14, 2017, 10:40:59 PM
Why the “You” in an Afterlife Wouldn't Really Be You (Scientific American article written by Michael Shermer) (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-the-ldquo-you-rdquo-in-an-afterlife-wouldnt-really-be-you/)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 14, 2017, 10:41:37 PM
Someone posted this a while back, and it seems really appropriate to this discussion:


That's great :lol:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 14, 2017, 11:32:36 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2c/ab/8e/2cab8ecfa7daf410bd69a537724b624c.jpg)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 14, 2017, 11:34:29 PM
What if Christians are really the Demons and the Devil is actually God and everything was switched around to deceive us into going to heaven, which is really hell?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 14, 2017, 11:34:51 PM
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/287/481/53c.jpg)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 15, 2017, 12:52:19 AM
Someone posted this a while back, and it seems really appropriate to this discussion:


That's funny, :lol: and awful at the same time.  :(
After watching this, I will tell all my relatives that I want no crosses at my funeral, not even one!!  ;D
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Magdalena on July 15, 2017, 01:18:18 AM
So....maga, manguita....
After hearing all these responses, do you still want to talk to us about NDE and hell?  ;D
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 15, 2017, 01:27:03 AM
So....maga, manguita....
After hearing all these responses, do you still want to talk to us about NDE and hell?  ;D

I think you know the answer to that question already.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 15, 2017, 03:23:52 AM
Some of your comments have been somewhat comforting, but still what about the recurring theme in most NDE's about people who experience hell feeling as Foreman put it,... "Sorrow beyond description engulfed my soul, more than anyone could ever imagine ... If you multiplied every disturbing and frightening thought that you've ever had during your entire life, that wouldn't come close to the panic I felt".

That's what scares me,...what if hell isn't a party place, but just a pit of despair?
What if that was Heaven? I mean, people are told that Hell is the bad place and Heaven is the good, then people have "good" NDEs and associate that with Heaven, and have "bad" NDEs and associate that with Hell. But what if those are backwards? What if by following the god on blind faith is exactly what the god does not want. Maybe this world is a test, and those that fail by believing in things without evidence are dumped into the eternal trash which is Hell. And those that practice good skepticism and show a decent logical prowess pass the test and get into the good place.

And when did this switch from manga's thread to Bruno's?

Well manga hasn't been around since they posted this more or less, so I thought I would take over...anyway haven't all of you had these thoughts before, just a little doubt or concern once in a while?

So here's a thing, most of us suffer occasionaly or have experienced what they refer to as “sleep start” or “hypnic jerk." Technically defined as “sudden brief, simultaneous contractions of the body or one or more body segments occurring at sleep onset". Basically people feel like they are falling, and usually these occur when we first are attempting to fall asleep or what is referred to as sleep onset.
These hypnic jerks are just a normal part of falling asleep for most folks, and are either barely noted or quickly forgotten prior to us falling asleep during the transitional phase of being drowsy, or stage 1.
Studies have concluded that there are no known pathological causes for this, in fact the real or actual cause of this is not known, but some speculate that they may be the result of output from the brainstem reticular formation that becomes activated during the transition between wakefulness and sleep, so very similar to how our minds react when we are startled by a loud, or sudden noise behind us when we are awake.

Again for the majority of people these sleep starts are benign, however. If the jerks are very strong, they can be associated with rapid heartbeat and irregular breathing, so it's not uncommon for people to be awakened from light sleep as a result of a sleep start or hypnic jerks.

Although I may experience these at the stage 1 of my sleep as with little consequence as described above, my problem is that I will on occasion experience these while I am in a very deep sleep, and both the experience and effect on me are quite starteling.

When this happens I awaken as if from the dead, and forgive me because I have no other way to describe the feeling, and it's not like the falling sensation normally felt by people.
This sensation makes me feel as if I had experienced total heart and respiratory failure, and the sensation is, if only for a brief second or two, as if I knew exactly what it feels like to be dead...simply a total emptiness and walled off feeling of nothingness, despair of the most complete.
When I awake my heart rate is through the roof, and I am for a brief time paralyzed with fright.

Now I know what it is I'm experiencing, the issues is I'm having hypnic jerks not while in the beginning of stage 1 sleep, but while in stages 3 and 4, or what is known as "slow wave sleep”. In slow wave sleep, brain and muscle activity decrease significantly, in fact there is so much relaxation of the muscles in the throat that people who are susceptible to sleep-related breathing disorders can experience difficult breathing.
So it is during this stage that I am suddenly awakened, and of course the reaction of my body from this sleep start is quite exasperating to say the least, but again even though I know and understand the science of it, the feeling of despair and death I feel upon waking is enough to prevent me from falling asleep for the rest of the night, which of course gets me thinking all of these dark and idiotic thoughts about hell,etc...so than I find myself feeling utterly depressed as I run down the very long list of my transgressions and wild ways of my youth.

So I start to doubt, not because I'm not a skeptical or rational thinking person, but because I'm scared shitless in the middle of the night, and alone, and fucking depressed.

My doctor thinks I should do a sleep study, but fuck that...she'll just want to put my on some meds and I don't do meds.

So anyway I like the video about Biorn, I think in the morning I'll grab my old k-bar and head out into the woods looking for an opponent to award me with Valhalla!

What sayeth you manga?
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: God on July 15, 2017, 07:16:56 AM
My doctor thinks I should do a sleep study, but fuck that...she'll just want to put my on some meds and I don't do meds.

I was wondering if you'd be helped learning about what it feels like to be calm. For example with meditation you can get your heartbeat down and remain conscious. Sports may help to try and remain calm when your body is moving fast.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Claireliontamer on July 15, 2017, 07:47:33 AM
Bruno, that happens to me sometimes too and you're right it is the most terrifying thing I've ever experienced.  I lay there after too afraid to go back to sleep in case I die in my sleep.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: solidsquid on July 16, 2017, 02:33:57 PM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\


Zen student: "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more Correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?"

Zen Master: "Your breakfast is getting cold."
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: xSilverPhinx on July 16, 2017, 02:37:11 PM
I'm just scared because I was raised catholic, and I always see these NDEs have a common theme when hell is involved: the person sees absolute darkness, they are scared, hear voices screeching and screaming in pain, sometimes they see demons mocking them. Then they call out to God or Jesus, and a light or a hand will come down and save them. I have read many individuals who have this experience. It just scares me because I want to be able to file NDEs into the hallucination/woo folder, but then I see so many similarities from hellish experiences that it scares me. It's the same reason I'm terrified of out of body experience target tests. I'm scared if someone were to prove those, then we may have a soul and it may mean some of the NDEs are true. The first ever NDE I saw was Howard Storm and on youtube it was called "Atheist Professor goes to hell" or something. At first, I didn't even know NDEs existed, and I was losing belief in religion, I thought there was no proof of life after death. However, this video scared me so brutally now since last summer I've been worrying about hell. I found online that there were some cultural differences between NDEs in different places that made me feel a bit better temporarily. However, then I heard about the website Skeptiko and Alex Tsakris, and he has some neurosurgeons on his shows that claim that a dying brain cannot at all create these NDEs when the eeg is flatlined, and that such accurate OBEs are not possible in a dying brain, so it has to be a soul that leaves the body. Now I am again, very much afraid. Two days ago I went on the near-death.com website hoping to reassure myself that NDEs are not real by trying to look up cultural differences. What did I find? A very convincing OBE and this NDE.  :-\


Zen student: "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more Correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?"

Zen Master: "Your breakfast is getting cold."

:lol:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 16, 2017, 08:18:52 PM

Well manga hasn't been around since they posted this more or less, so I thought I would take over...anyway haven't all of you had these thoughts before, just a little doubt or concern once in a while?

I can honestly say no, but I think it's simply because I've been used to the idea for so long.  I remember when I was little and first started learning about heaven and hell by being told how people would be divided up for judgment into sheep and goats.  The second I heard this, without having to think it over at all, I knew I was a goat and nothing would change that. 

I did keep trying for a long time after that to be a good Xtian but it was so I could have a good life here and now, I had no question about where my soul was headed.  I've been resigned to the Xtian destination for me since I was about 6 yrs old.

Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Arturo on July 16, 2017, 11:45:54 PM

Well manga hasn't been around since they posted this more or less, so I thought I would take over...anyway haven't all of you had these thoughts before, just a little doubt or concern once in a while?

I can honestly say no, but I think it's simply because I've been used to the idea for so long.  I remember when I was little and first started learning about heaven and hell by being told how people would be divided up for judgment into sheep and goats.  The second I heard this, without having to think it over at all, I knew I was a goat and nothing would change that. 

I did keep trying for a long time after that to be a good Xtian but it was so I could have a good life here and now, I had no question about where my soul was headed.  I've been resigned to the Xtian destination for me since I was about 6 yrs old.

I never heard the sheep and goat thing :lol:
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Icarus on July 17, 2017, 12:07:46 AM
Bruno I too have had some of those sudden muscular contractions when near sleep and occasionally when in deep sleep. Annoying as hell.  I confess that I do not review all my multitude of past transgressions while lying awake. . I merely curse, then determine to go back to sleep.  If sleep does not come quickly, I damn the god, Morpheus some more and pick up the book on my bedside stand. A few minutes of reading makes me sleepy again. That works for me.

My wife flails around in her sleep.  I do not sleep with her.  She has a problem aside from intermittent flailing.  She has sleep apnea. She has a gizmo, called a Cepap which is a mask like device that consists of air nozzles inserted into the nostrils. The magic machine knows when the user has a lapse in the breathing process. In those instances it propels an air stream into the nostrils until normal breathing is resumed. That malady is apparently fairly common and the people who furnish the Cepap devices do a brisk business.  She does not use it every night because it irritates the nose openings.  Elaine is not an old broad, she is 16 years my junior so it is not really about the difficulties that accompany advanced ageing.

Another annoying sleep disturbance is when the newspaper is thrown onto my lawn....somewhere around 3 or 4 AM, I am fully awakened although it is not at all a  noisy event.  Considering that I am a sound sleeper and that I could easily sleep through a train wreck in my front yard, the newspaper thing is a mystery.   
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 17, 2017, 01:01:00 AM
I never heard the sheep and goat thing :lol:

That may be Protestant weirdness.
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Recusant on July 17, 2017, 10:33:30 AM
I never heard the sheep and goat thing :lol:

That may be Protestant weirdness.

It's in the Bible, and the passage is read in Catholic churches as well. I had the same reaction to it as you did when I was a youngster.  ;)
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Sandra Craft on July 17, 2017, 03:12:10 PM
I never heard the sheep and goat thing :lol:

That may be Protestant weirdness.

It's in the Bible, and the passage is read in Catholic churches as well. I had the same reaction to it as you did when I was a youngster.  ;)

In a way, it's good to get that sorted out early.   ;D
Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Papasito Bruno on July 18, 2017, 03:25:37 PM
My doctor thinks I should do a sleep study, but fuck that...she'll just want to put my on some meds and I don't do meds.

I was wondering if you'd be helped learning about what it feels like to be calm. For example with meditation you can get your heartbeat down and remain conscious. Sports may help to try and remain calm when your body is moving fast.

This only happens to me 3-4 times a year, not as if it is a common occurrence, I did however, mention to my doctor when I was explaining to her how hard it has been for me to sleep straight through the night. I usually wake up at least twice each night. First time is usually around 0130, and the second time between 0330-0400. Like clockwork, and many times it takes me a while to fall back a sleep. (I'll usually read if it gets too bad, or simply go sit in our front room in the dark, try to calm my mind...often I just make tea, and wait until it is time for me to start getting ready for the day)

I do yoga three times a week (Have been for over three years now);plus excercise another 3-4 days per week, mixture of lifting, cycling and elliptical training.
 
I also meditate (15 minutes, maybe 30 minutes on a Sunday morning), not everyday, though that is my goal, eventually, I mean some day.

I'm pretty calm and relaxed most times, but the sleep start from a deep sleep is most disturbing, and alarming.


I have to confess to everyone here, that I don't really ruminate on all of my past "sins or transgressions", I was laying that out as bait for manga, thinking they might bite and steer me toward god or jesus as that is what I feel is the reaction they are hoping to get from someone here.

I do get the sleep starts as I described in detail though, and they are terrifying and I often wonder if that's how I will die, suddenly like that in my sleep, and these hypnic jerks do most times cause me to ponder my own death, and what that will be like,...mostly I just fear missing out on my kids lives, and maybe grandkids one day, makes me sad to think about, and sometimes I do wonder if there really is an afterlife (Actually sometimes I wish there was an afterlife as I would love to be reunited with my dad, if only once more as I'm on my way down to hell)

Anyway, I'm done here, done with NDE's....and promise only to come back if I have a real one of my own. Bye Manga :'(

Title: Re: guys what do you think of this george foreman nde and conversion?
Post by: Old Seer on July 26, 2017, 04:09:17 AM
Sounds like what happens when you exhaust your body of fuel and then send it into overtime. Lots of chemicals going around.

Plus George Foreman got his head rattled around a lot. Right?
If he would have quit walking around he would have cooled down faster, Why not just go outside and stand in the breeze---if there was one. Under great stress one develops random thoughts connected to things believed or known which can make it seem as though someone is talking to them.