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Digitized Minds and Science Fiction Readers

Started by Recusant, July 23, 2018, 11:35:07 PM

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Recusant

Having been an avid reader of science fiction since my childhood, it has perhaps molded my attitudes on plenty of topics, though I've never tried to identify which topics those might be. For this one, I'm fine with the idea of uploading minds onto computer hardware, should it ever become possible, but I'm basically neutral rather than positive.

"Science fiction enthusiasts have a positive attitude to the digitizing of the brain" | ScienceDaily

QuoteThe goal of a technology known as mind upload is to make it possible to create functional copies of the human brain on computers. The development of this technology, which involves scanning of the brain and detailed cell-specific emulation, is currently receiving billions in funding. Science fiction enthusiasts express a more positive attitude towards the technology compared to others.

"Mind upload is a technology rife with unsolved philosophical questions," says researcher Michael Laakasuo.

...

Scientific discoveries in the field of brain digitisation and related questions are given consideration in both science fiction and scientific journals in philosophy. Moralities of Intelligent Machines, a research group working at the University of Helsinki, is investigating the subject also from the perspective of moral psychology, in other words mapping out the tendency of ordinary people to either approve of or condemn the use of such technology.

"In the first sub-project, where data was collected in the United States, it was found that men are more approving of the technology than women. But standardising for interest in science fiction evened out such differences," explains Laakasuo.

According to Laakasuo, a stronger exposure to science fiction correlated with a more positive outlook on the mind upload technology overall. The study also found that traditional religiousness is linked with negative reactions towards the technology.

[Continues . . .]

I considered putting this in the Philosophy board, but will tack on a somewhat related story to justify putting in Science.

"Complete fly brain imaged at nanoscale resolution" | ScienceDaily

QuoteTwo high-speed electron microscopes. 7,062 brain slices. 21 million images.

For a team of scientists at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute's Janelia Research Campus in Ashburn, Virginia, these numbers add up to a technical first: a high-resolution digital snapshot of the adult fruit fly brain.

Researchers can now trace the path of any one neuron to any other neuron throughout the whole brain, says neuroscientist Davi Bock, a group leader at Janelia who reported the work along with his colleagues on July 19, 2018, in the journal Cell.

"The entire fly brain has never been imaged before at this resolution that lets you see connections between neurons," he says. That detail is key for mapping out the brain's circuitry -- the precise webs of neuronal connections that underpin specific fly behaviors.

The Janelia team's data offers a new tool for scientists racing to map these connections. And, in a memory center of the brain, the data also revealed a new cell type and other surprises. "Any time you look at images with higher resolution and more completeness, you're going to discover new things," Bock says.

[Continues . . .]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

It's 3am so I won't be reading the whole thing yet . . .

I am in your camp, Recusant, it would be nice but . . . I am also a sci-fi reader since childhood but, being a pragmatist, have always put that world away as I shut the book. However, I do understand that more than one idea mooted in that genre has, at least, seeded a successful development.

But the sheer data volume of a brain? Let alone the complexity that makes that brain a mind that we barely have a glimpse of!  But that is no reason not to keep trying and "creaming off" odd bits of acheivable technology on the way.

Just wish humans would not use that tech for some of the, bordering on evil, purposes they do - but, that's humans for yer.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Bluenose

I too am a reader of science fiction since childhood.  On the question of uploading human consciousness "to the cloud"  (LOL) I am certainly not opposed to the idea, but I rather suspect we are nowhere near the actuality of that.  At the age of 60, I do not expect it to become a possibility in my lifetime.  Maybe that of my children or perhaps (slightly) more likely in my granddaughter's lifetime.  But then the idea of a sentient machine did not seem so far away when 2001: A Space Odyssey was first released 50 years ago and I don't think we are really all that much closer than we were then.  I don't think we have yet worked out what are the correct questions to ask to make it possible.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Dave

Quote from: Bluenose on July 24, 2018, 01:51:24 PM
I too am a reader of science fiction since childhood.  On the question of uploading human consciousness "to the cloud"  (LOL) I am certainly not opposed to the idea, but I rather suspect we are nowhere near the actuality of that.  At the age of 60, I do not expect it to become a possibility in my lifetime.  Maybe that of my children or perhaps (slightly) more likely in my granddaughter's lifetime.  But then the idea of a sentient machine did not seem so far away when 2001: A Space Odyssey was first released 50 years ago and I don't think we are really all that much closer than we were then.  I don't think we have yet worked out what are the correct questions to ask to make it possible.

Don't, just don't, ask, "What is the meaning of Life, the Universe and Everything"!

I think the main barrier to anything like an AI, even a very simple one in comparison to a human brain, little more than a jumped up "expert system", is memory.  The Amazon Cloud was just under an exabyte (1x10^18) in 2012 it seems, but Alexa has been added since then. And she is pretty thick, though she does serve lots of people. But it's dynamic RAM that is needed, not hard drives. SSDs will be faster but . . .

The storage capacity human brain may be around a quadrillion bytes, 10^15, which seems less, but it is the number of possible connection combinations that is important in bringing data together to promotes new thoughts or deduce data from combinations.

And just compare the energy efficiencies!

But, small steps like ec/kg monitors that can offer a diagnosis from a heart trace etc are getting us there.

But, analysing and transfering all the memories of a human brain? Even duplicating the memory handling abilities? Hmmm.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Bluenose

Quote from: Dave on July 24, 2018, 02:31:27 PM
Don't, just don't, ask, "What is the meaning of Life, the Universe and Everything"!

I don't need to, I already know the answer.  But what is the actual question?  LOL

Quote
I think the main barrier to anything like an AI, even a very simple one in comparison to a human brain, little more than a jumped up "expert system", is memory.  The Amazon Cloud was just under an exabyte (1x10^18) in 2012 it seems, but Alexa has been added since then. And she is pretty thick, though she does serve lots of people. But it's dynamic RAM that is needed, not hard drives. SSDs will be faster but . . .

The storage capacity human brain may be around a quadrillion bytes, 10^15, which seems less, but it is the number of possible connection combinations that is important in bringing data together to promotes new thoughts or deduce data from combinations.

And just compare the energy efficiencies!

But, small steps like ec/kg monitors that can offer a diagnosis from a heart trace etc are getting us there.

But, analysing and transfering all the memories of a human brain? Even duplicating the memory handling abilities? Hmmm.

I think it is more than just memory capacity.  The problem as I see it is that AI attempts so far have been largely linear processes. Making the processing faster and adding more memory will not help unless "they" come up with a better model.  Have you read Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter?  Douglas discusses the problem of both natural and artificial intelligence in a way that I rather think has not been grasped by many in the AI field.  My feelings are that when an artificial intelligence does occur it will be by accident and as an emergent property of something else.  Still not holding my breath.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Dave

Think I bought GEB when it first came out. There seems yo ge a pdf, might download it.

I tried to imply the sheer data storage is not enough, it's the organisation and connections that matter.

The link between AI and mind transfer is obvious, I don't think we are not going to get the latter until the former is perfected. There is an AI thread and I wonder if Recusant would prefer the AI aspect were discussed there?  But what else can be ssid about mjnd transfer, other than it is a very long way ahead (and humans might be more worried about getting enough food and water to live long before we get close to it!)
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Recusant

Heh, we don't "no off topic" here; let the thread go wherever it leads.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Dave

Oops, already moved the stuff!

But certainly I think true AI, with all the attributes of the human brain, is a must before mind transfer can even be seriously thought of, and Roger Penrose (in a dated but still possibly relevant video) reckoned it is not achievable.

https://youtu.be/eVq39QbFQXE

I think an AI that can, say, be a functional assistant to a human, but without human intellectual functions, is not going to be beyond the grandchild range. A "dumb secretary".
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Bluenose

Quote from: Dave on July 24, 2018, 06:39:41 PM
Oops, already moved the stuff!

But certainly I think true AI, with all the attributes of the human brain, is a must before mind transfer can even be seriously thought of, and Roger Penrose (in a dated but still possibly relevant video) reckoned it is not achievable.

https://youtu.be/eVq39QbFQXE

I think an AI that can, say, be a functional assistant to a human, but without human intellectual functions, is not going to be beyond the grandchild range. A "dumb secretary".

I wouldn't be too sure about that.  The growth in computer capability has continued exponentially with no signs of abating.  Sure, we are approaching the limits of certain technology, particular the die size for transistors in ICs which is getting within cooee of the theoretical limit. But other ideas are coming along as well, perhaps more 3D like integrated circuits or quantum computing.  I agree that the organisation/architecture of AI devices will need to change but part of the problem is that we only have a rudimentary grasp of how our own brains work.  I do not think we need to replicate the structure of our brains in our AIs, as like any evolved structure there is probably a simpler or more efficient way of doing it, once we really understand.  Don't hold your breath waiting for it, though...
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Dave

#10
We''ll just have to wait for a real Susan Calvin to come along!

I agree that trying to copy the brain's structure is probably not the path, but remember all those "breakthrough technologies" of the past thirty years that, so far, have got nowhere?  Its been those techs not splattered all over the headlines, like 256Gb postage stamp sized SD jobs, that have worked.

Yes, quantum computing may be the answer, but it is taking a long time. Energy efficiency is going to be a sod of a problem to solve, way back the future computers were described as maybe like "smoking, hairy golfballs", I will leave the reasoning for that, and the imagery, to you!

In the oldest telephone exchanges the inter-rack wiring was neatly bundled and bound in tidy runs, there might have been fifty feet of wire to get a connection between two racks that were back to back. Then some genius had the idea of placing steel mesh over the racks, then this supported cabling that went directly rack to rack, maybe as little as three feet. To install a new unit you just laid another cable on top of the rest. Not as tidy but a hell of a lot cheaper. Cray employed something similar to reduce latency in their super computers, circular clusters of cabinets with a mare's nest of wires between them.

Something like that will be needed, once they dreamed of the bio-computer memory system that would "learn" by establishing point-to-point paths in a gel, bit like the brain. But the real breakthrough will be some sort of "static" system, like liquid crystals or "liquid ink" where very little current flow is required to change the image. Even USB sticks, that can hold data without power supply being applied, get warm whilst actually transfering that data.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Bad Penny II

I'm for digitized minds and I'm a Science Fiction Reader
Take my advice, don't listen to me.