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Shipbreaking!

Started by Waski_the_Squirrel, November 30, 2015, 05:22:01 AM

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Waski_the_Squirrel

I don't think I mentioned it in my introductory post, but novel writing is important to me. I'm on the third draft of novel #10. Don't worry: I'm a horrible writer. That's why you've never heard of me. Nevertheless, even the worst among us improves. Novel #10 is showing surprising potential. It may still be terrible, but it is night and day better than what I've attempted before.

Novel #10 is about shipbreaking. Now, it is science fiction, so my version is about breaking spaceships. Nevertheless, the poverty, the lack of worker protection, the lack of modern technology, and the tale of the rich taking advantage of the poor are part of my novel.


It's a dangerous world. My hero was severely injured at age 9. He was working in the yards as a porter.


He sustained horrific burns, shattered bones, and spinal damage. By age 37 (when the novel starts) he walks only with the aid of leg braces and crutches. Without them, he can barely shuffle. This is not a utopian future.

He was actually abandoned to die after his accident. He is the product of his mother trying to escape her horrible life and falling into prostitution. His stepfather took his mother back, but did not accept him. After the accident, he was abandoned to die horribly and alone. According to the dominant religion of the planet, he was cursed because he was illegitimate, though the locals use a harsher word.

Luckily, he was discovered by a Christian missionary. The missionary ended up taking him in (though not adopting him, an important distinction in this future). The missionary was an alcoholic. He thought that caring for the hero would distract him from his alcoholism. Instead, he ended up with a really challenging boy and his own demons. He spend a lot of the money that was raised for medical care on his own alcoholic weakness and starting his church.

So far, I came up with all of this during my most devout, religious period.  My vision was that the hero would realize that his constant pain and severe injuries were part of God's plan: he was rescued from a life of poverty and ignorance by his injuries.

Since then, this isn't good enough. I'm surprised that I came up with this premise as a serious Christian. The missionary was created to be a serious alcoholic, with a lot of serious darkness in his past, and I mean that seriously. I also have the hero being taken in as a teenager by a monastery, and the monks turning out to be seriously abusive and nasty. Looking at my old writing, I actually wonder if I was atheist then without realizing it...until I reread my scene with the hero's girlfriend: he has just met his step-sister after a gap of almost 30 years. He realizes that he would be hateful and ignorant like she is...except for his accident. He realizes that his awful accident saved him.

So, I can't write that. Up until then, I am following my old Christian outline. I wanted to write Christian science fiction (though apparently quite dark). But, there are lines I can't cross. I'm going to take my old idea and put it into the mouth of one of my villain-lackeys (a woman who is devoutly faithful, in love with the hero, but evil...and this is from my old days. Now I just have more reasons to make her evil). But, I can no longer imagine my hero swallowing that. This actually leaves him in a much darker place, but I like that. If I ever write my sequels, he has a lot of horrible things coming.

I'm left with retaining the idea of an alcoholic missionary taking in the 9-year-old hero, helping him a lot, but refusing to adopt him (which matters on this planet), and squandering a lot of the money raised to help the hero on alcohol. I'm left with the reality that the hero is permanently crippled and left with lifelong pain because of injuries sustained at age 9. He also learned to read, write, and speak several languages due to the alcoholic missionary where he previously only knew how to speak one.

When I was a Christian, my idea was to show the complexity of Christian faith. I liked the idea that there were a lot of bad or mistaken people who claimed the Christian label. This actually fed into my planned sequel where the hero found out that he wasn't even human: his father was designed in a lab. According to the church of their empire, this made him nonhuman and without a soul. More practically, this made him property...not a person.

So, as I type this, I recognize how dark I was making the Christian faith, but it also makes me question that same faith. Now I really think I must have been questioning, even if I wasn't really ready to admit it.

I went through these same ideas with another forum and questioned how to make the Christian message clear. One of the most common suggestions I got was a miraculous healing: enable the hero to walk unaided. I hated that idea then: I've grown to really love my crippled hero. He makes bad decisions, holds grudges, and suffers real physical pain thanks to his injuries. So, even at my most religious, I couldn't trivialize his injuries like this. 

But more things are coming into me. I may be an atheist now, but I am not anti-religion. I'm coming back to my hero's childhood religion. Once, the idea was that he realized that the Christian god accepted him even though the god of his childhood saw him as cursed. Actually, due to trends which have already started, his blond hair and blue eyes marked him as cursed.



When his stepfather finally appears in the last few pages, it is to criticise him for having the face of his beautiful mother, only to have his father's eyes looking out of it. His real father never appears. However, I have the idea of the second novel being about solving his real father's murder...I have the idea of his father's body being destroyed by fire to the horror of the people in the small town where it happened. I also have the idea that his father lived in the basement of a church, and was working to restore its physical structure.

Yes, I grew up Christian. Until a few weeks ago, I was Christian and wanted to write Christian friendly science fiction. Now, I'm more serious about the darkness around it, and I want my hero to be atheist, but I still think dimensions would be added if I kept the religious aspect. I need time to figure this part out.

Another part I need to figure out is the local religion and the local culture. A major inspiration for this novel were Trey Ratlcliffe's photo's of Lijiang, China. It's an amazing place, and totally alien to how I grew up. Surprisingly, the way I grew up is pretty alien as well (more on that later) but I have grown to adore Lijiang...to the point I'm trying to learn Chinese. Anyway, I'm working hard to make my culture much more alien.

This photo really did it for me:


What a fantastically alien environment! Seriously, this photo is the reason I'm currently struggling to learn Chinese. Here is another version.


True story: the opening scene takes place on a street like this.


Anyway, I'm finding my old religious beliefs are both valuable for this novel and that they are a curse. I'm also finding that in my old religious state, I would have liked this. Now, I wish I would have followed some of these ideas a bit further...


I don't know where else to go with this except that I'm continuing to work on my novel. Once, it was going to express my religious faith. It is still going to do that, but my religious faith has turned to atheist.

So the truth is... my goals may have changed. But, I still believe in humanity. My crippled hero will be changing to reflect this...and I'm still impressed with how much of what I believe now was already part of him.

Tank

Going to read this later. Looks very interesting.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Crow

The more successful stories that I have read/watched/played always come at religion from a human perspective. Pillars of the Earth is one of the best examples of this, the focus is on the people rather than the religion and looks at the flow of power rather than the beliefs of the religions even though it is touched upon. So rather than focus on the message of the missionary look at the reasons behind the missionaries motives and why he is one rather than a standard church goer and how this affects his interactions with the characters, you aren't writing a book on philosophy so a story based around experiences rather than beliefs are more interesting, especially as experiences are usually what create the foundation for thoughts to be held in enough regard to become a belief.

In science fiction with religion those that stick too uniformly to the current popular world religions are less successful in their portrait of them as they ignore the cultural ebbs and flows behind religion and also come across as being preachy, with the story only serving as a vehicle to deliver their message rather than creating a believable world that facilitates the story. The religion in Firefly is an example of this done poorly, it feels like it is there just for a bit of a bashing that may be enjoyable to some but doesn't really make much sense to the world and feels out of place. Ultimately religion is nothing without culture that is what gives it form, to directly remove something from Americana and transplant it into an alien setting rarely works. You don't need to go into it too much though just like you don't need to know the origin of Yahweh as a god of war from the Canaanite pantheon or the "divine warrior" of the Israelite pantheon to understand Judaism, however the changes between the two religions from Christianity to a far future science fiction version would be comparable.
Retired member.

Waski_the_Squirrel

I should never post at night: I'm not a night person. I should be asleep now (it's 9:30) but I just finished pasting graphs and data into my freshman Physical Science Test. I wrote the test in a series of mornings, so I'm saving the brainless part for right now. I regret how unclear I was in the original post. Nevertheless, I've already gotten great feedback.

Crow had some great stuff. Yes I'm retaining the Christian faith. The missionary is Christian, and formed recognizable churches in his travels. I have wondered about changes to the faith as well, and I'm not sure where to go with that.

I think those who have responded got what I was driving at, despite my late night writing. I started this novel at my most devout. Now, I'm an atheist of recent vintage. I used to have it as a goal to write Christian friendly science fiction. (Friendly, not necessarily Christian: even at my most devout, I didn't like Christian movies or fiction.) My alcoholic missionary is one reason it would not have been Christian fiction. In my devout days, I wanted the hero to realize he was crippled as part of "God's Plan". Now, it's just something that happened. Yes, it is the reason he escaped, but there is no meaning behind it, just random chance.

But, even though I'm now an atheist, I don't want to turn this into an anti-religion screed. Religion is a powerful motivator both for good or ill, and, until a few weeks ago, it was in my life as well. Now I will settle into my new identity, so I probably have some missionary zeal right now. But, at the moment, I would like religion to stay in the book in all of its complexity.

There is a dominant religion on the planet, and it is not Christian at all. It gives the planet an exotic flavor and was inspired by imagining life on the streets in the photos. It also gives the hero motivation because that religion is serious about illegitimate children, and he is illegitimate. The people in the novel have a stronger word for him. As a child, after the missionary found him and took him in, he thought that he might have been cursed under the old god, but not the invisible god (what they call the Christian god). The missionary is part of a made-up denomination.

As he got older, he saw the dark side of Christianity. He spent his late teens in a monastery. I don't identify the denomination, but you can guess. They dominated their small part of the planet with cruelty. They didn't handle the hero well and tried to beat the rebellion out of him: this is how he ended up finally among the stars.

As an adult, he learned more about his real father. He tried to get work done on his legs (this is the future). He discovered that his father was designed in a lab. In this universe, that makes him property. Luckily the doctor who discovered that in his DNA was a kind man and didn't turn him in. My photo of the blond hair and blue eyes shows this: whoever designed his father liked blonds, and these traits will be less common in the future. The major religions of their civilization regard those designed in labs as not having a "soul" and this excuses what is done with such people. The hero is regarded as an abomination because he had a natural mother and designed father.

But, at the same time, the hero was formed by two religions. There is also a third religion in the book, in a less important role. A Christian pastor and the Christian missionary are important to the book. The main villain is a devout priest of the non-Christian faith. Another villain is an atheist, and I plan to keep it that way.

Now, I want the hero to figure out that he's not religious (not as a major plot point, just as a side thing). Before, it was going to be about him coming back to the faith. Also, his second love interest (after the first one is executed) was going to become a Christian. Now, I see her as becoming more respectful of religious faith (she didn't take it seriously before) and also becoming more sure that it's all superstition.

Anyway, for now the plan is to treat religion with respect and as an important force in what happens in society.

By the way, I hesitate to share too many details on a public forum, but the missionary does have some real motivation. His alcoholism started young. He also started rich and influential with a huge church, a wife with a powerful father, and two wonderful children. He killed them while driving drunk. He escaped to this backwater planet and decided God spared him to do good work. So, he worked hard as a missionary to distract himself from the alcohol. He took in the hero with the idea that caring for a crippled boy would distract him even more. (He was getting old and slowing down by then.) It didn't work. At the time the novel starts, he has seized on the idea of going home to face justice for killing his family in the drunk driving accident. But, he wants to leave his church in good hands. He has always seen the hero as his successor, and really never will understand that the hero doesn't take religion seriously.

Previously, I imagined that the hero would come to be Christian again, but not take over the church. Now, he won't become a Christian. In both cases, I do have a character in mind to take over the church. Religion will always be with us.

Recusant

As I clicked "Post," the forum warned me that there was a new reply. I haven't read it yet (it's a long one!), but just to be clear, this is a response to the OP, and not the post immediately preceding this one.

Thanks for that story synopsis and description of your writing process, Waski_the_Squirrel. Intriguing. It seems you've set yourself a real task! I agree with one of the things that Crow said, or at least my understanding of it. The story will probably work better if the religion in the story (and the atheism, for that matter) is incorporated in an organic manner; a part of the fabric of society, rather than an emphasis. Of course one of the main characters is a missionary, so there is ample opportunity to show how religion relates to the society you're creating.

I haven't thought about it a lot, but it seems to me that Christianity would go through some changes as humanity spread to other worlds, especially if those other worlds had life of their own (though not necessarily intelligent life). Maybe not drastic changes, and I'm not even sure what sort of changes would make sense. For instance, the pope is the Catholic god's official representative on Earth. Does his authority extend to all planets inhabited by human beings?

You didn't go into much detail regarding the non-Christian religion the hero was born into, but it sounds monotheistic. Maybe a polytheistic religion would give a greater contrast with Christianity?

Again, thanks for an engaging and thought-provoking post.  :studious:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Waski_the_Squirrel

I keep coming back here because I'm looking for input from atheists. I have several years of Christian input, but none from outside.

Quote from: Recusant on December 01, 2015, 05:07:03 AM
Thanks for that story synopsis and description of your writing process, Waski_the_Squirrel. Intriguing. It seems you've set yourself a real task! I agree with one of the things that Crow said, or at least my understanding of it. The story will probably work better if the religion in the story (and the atheism, for that matter) is incorporated in an organic manner; a part of the fabric of society, rather than an emphasis.

I agree. I think the religion will be less important to the story now that I'm not trying to write "Christian friendly" science fiction.

Quote
I haven't thought about it a lot, but it seems to me that Christianity would go through some changes as humanity spread to other worlds, especially if those other worlds had life of their own (though not necessarily intelligent life).

I'm extremely interested in this. I would be open to altering the religion to fit the future. To be clear: in my novel there is intelligent alien life, but only a few humans have encountered it. It is unknown and more a rumor. Most alien life that has been encountered is not intelligent. The intelligent life will be explored in future novels. The big reference in this book is a character describing the intelligent life as "foul things gibbering in the darkness". No one takes him seriously: he's kind of a nutty character anyway.

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Maybe not drastic changes, and I'm not even sure what sort of changes would make sense. For instance, the pope is the Catholic god's official representative on Earth. Does his authority extend to all planets inhabited by human beings?
Great question! I didn't officially identify the denomination of the monastery in my novel, but we all know which one it would be. This is something that would really bother them, especially since a nuclear bombardment from orbit cut the planet off from human civilization for an obscenely long period of time. How do they continue in such a setting?

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You didn't go into much detail regarding the non-Christian religion the hero was born into, but it sounds monotheistic. Maybe a polytheistic religion would give a greater contrast with Christianity?
I need to work out details of this religion better. Basically, they have one main God. However, other gods are welcome to sit at his table. In my Christian days, I wanted the Christians to be stubborn holdouts to this. Now, I'm leaning toward making the Sailors be the holdouts, and they have a very polytheistic religion.  So, the dominant religion is monotheistic in that there is one main God, but it is ploytheistic in that it accepts anyone, as long as their god sits at the main god's table. What exactly this means depends on who is in power at the time.

Quote
Again, thanks for an engaging and thought-provoking post.  :studious:

Thanks! I am actually serious about this. I may now be an atheist, but I really am concerned to make religion an important part of everyone's life in the novel. It was a serious part of my own life until the past few weeks when I realized I was an atheist. I can no longer stomach the hero of the novel praising God for crippling him to save him from a horrific life. But, at the same time, there is a lot of good in religion. So, the next few drafts of the novel will involve me finding my balance. Input from those who are atheists and have been so longer than me are important.

Crow

Have you thought about the possibility of not mentioning what the religion is, even though the word missionary is almost synonymous with Christianity whatever story you tell can always come across as anti something if using specifics and the act of a religious mission and places of worship aren't exclusive to Christianity. Thus it allows you to create distance between the ideas you have and the reality they were inspired by, which is the primary benefit of science fiction allowing you to tackle contentious issues without being too personal.

Then again why science fiction? The basic premise could be done in any location (outcast finds acceptance). What does science fiction bring to the story that the real Lijiang wouldn't?
Retired member.

Waski_the_Squirrel

Quote from: Crow on December 01, 2015, 12:10:47 PM
Have you thought about the possibility of not mentioning what the religion is, even though the word missionary is almost synonymous with Christianity
That's an interesting thought that I had not had.

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Then again why science fiction? The basic premise could be done in any location (outcast finds acceptance). What does science fiction bring to the story that the real Lijiang wouldn't?
The real Lijiang doesn't have shipbreaking. But, the main reasons are that I like science fiction and because the important plot of the book is related to genetic engineering and aliens. Most of what I described is backstory. The hero's blond hair and blue eyes are important to the plot because of what they show about his origins. I intentionally kept the important bits of the plot out of my synopsis.

Waski_the_Squirrel

Quote from: Crow on December 01, 2015, 12:10:47 PM
Have you thought about the possibility of not mentioning what the religion is, even though the word missionary is almost synonymous with Christianity

I haven't been able to stop thinking about this all day. I actually have some precedence for this in the novel. The followers of the local religion keep referring to Christians as followers of the invisible God. In fact, my atheist reinterpretation of the book really leaves only one clear Christian reference, and a few vague ones. The clear reference is that the hero notices that the cross has been taken off the church when he sees it again for the first time. (A hardliner has taken over as Minister of Religious Affairs, and he actually is the main villain.) But, maybe a less specific reference would work?

There is a woman in the book who wants to be the hero's love interest, and the missionary really encourages this. (She is a devout Christian.) Previously, I planned for her to be corrupted by zeal rather than faith into serving the villain. However, she does have some talks with the hero and clearly doesn't get his real faith struggle. Although now I plan for him to resolve it as an atheist, even if he doesn't identify himself that way, I still like the idea of a faith struggle. I just came through one, and I'm close to his age. But I planned for this woman to be weak on Biblical knowledge. Why not keep that? For years, I've argued with Christians who don't know their Bible, even though I was a Christian. It used to make me angry that they wouldn't read their Bible. It actually still frustrates me, though I now understand why Christians avoid their Bible. The Bible was the main thing that turned me into an atheist.

And, frankly, I don't want to become anti-religious. There are a lot of amazing Christian people. I still go to church because of a group of amazing Christians. They are incredible human beings and if more Christians were like them there would be a lot fewer atheists. Maybe avoiding the word "Christian" is best. I can keep many of the other trappings. I already created an alternate denomination. Maybe I can just use the name for that denomination and be happy. Heck, maybe a Christian can read it that way and not find it offensive.

So, I honestly am finding your post to be quite liberating and inspiring. I'm already looking at yet another rewrite of the opening chapter in this new light.

So, thank-you!

Tank

Read it now. Haven't read the other comments yet.

Character flaws are what makes characters interesting, looks like you have plenty of those!
Do we have a name for 'crippled guy'?
Is the ship breaking done on the surface of the Earth, the surface of the some other planet, in orbit around the Earth or in orbit around some other planet?
I think your personal insights into religion, religious people and faith in general are very valuable. I could never write those from experience because I have never believed in the supernatural.
What do you think makes 'cripple guy' a sympathetic character that I would want to find out more about him?
Why is he and he and not a she?
Are we in a universe where faster than light travel is possible?
Are we in the near or far future?
Have intelligent aliens been discovered?
If so do humans interact with them?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Waski_the_Squirrel

Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Read it now. Haven't read the other comments yet.

Character flaws are what makes characters interesting, looks like you have plenty of those!
Do we have a name for 'crippled guy'?

I'm on the third draft now, so yes. But, it's a detail I'm omitting here because it plays into the actual plot. Once I get somewhere with this novel, I'll share it.

Quote
Is the ship breaking done on the surface of the Earth, the surface of the some other planet, in orbit around the Earth or in orbit around some other planet?

It's a far off planet and it is done on the surface under hideous conditions (only desert) similar to the photos I linked. This is a very high-poverty planet, and many parts of it are extremely backward.

Quote
I think your personal insights into religion, religious people and faith in general are very valuable. I could never write those from experience because I have never believed in the supernatural.

Part of me wishes it hadn't taken until I was 40 to think through all of that. But, honestly, I would never give up the wonderful people at my church, the experience preaching and learning how to cook there (we do a potluck after every service, so I had to learn to cook), and the way that the act of preaching and preparing sermons and thinking through the pastor's sermons led me to rationally reject the religion of my childhood.

Quote
What do you think makes 'cripple guy' a sympathetic character that I would want to find out more about him?

Until you get to know him, the big one is that he is going to stay there for a month to help out the missionary who is now very sick. However, his personality is interesting when he starts opening up.

Quote
Why is he and he and not a she?

The majority of my heroes are male because I'm male. However, every novel I've written usually coalesces around a character I've somehow come up with. He was born in my mind blond, blue eyed, and using leg braces and crutches. I built a story around that. Other books have starred female characters. An elderly physics professor was a fun character: she was tough, intelligent, funny, and at the point in her life where she had nothing to lose because she had lost most of it already because she was a widow and estranged from her two children. Another favorite hasn't been written yet but will be the star of the third book in this shipbreaking series if I ever get there: a hoarder (also a widow) who is overweight and has spent most of her life playing victim...until the story forces her into action and a bunch of major life changes.

Quote
Are we in a universe where faster than light travel is possible?

Yes, but I put some strong limits on it. FTL is only possible well outside of a solar system. It occurs by a series of hops. A lot of travel time is wasted traveling into and out of a solar system.

Quote
Are we in the near or far future?

Pretty far. I keep it vague and do not reference Earth very often. A lot of people are not living an idyllic Star Trek future, and there is a lot of poverty. Naturally, there are places with a great futuristic setting. The missionary came from one of those places.

Quote
Have intelligent aliens been discovered?

They exist, but are known mostly through second hand stories. One of the characters describes them as "foul things gibbering in the darkness" which he is quoting, though I don't recall the reference offhand. That character, in my Christian days, was meant to be a super-conservative Christian who felt he was justified in doing anything "because God", and was meant as an example of what a Christian is not. But, he is right about the aliens. They are the ultimate villains in the thing even though they don't ever appear. They're the ones pulling the strings. I want them kept mysterious and alien, so I'll keep them offstage unless I ever figure out how to portray a truly alien being.

There is also a novel I want to rewrite from my earlier days that involves a parasitic fungus. When it takes over human hosts, it gains control of the host's mind and becomes self-aware.

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If so do humans interact with them?

There are humans which have interacted with them, but the accounts are confusing and contradictory. And I keep this offstage, at least until I figure out how to write a truly alien being.

Recusant

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AMfoul things gibbering in the darkness

That sounds like something from Lovecraft, but a web search didn't bring it up.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Icarus

Fascinating stuff Waski. 

I think that a novelist, to be successful, has to be aware of what actually sells.  A good agent would be a valuable asset for you because he/she knows what is advantageous for sales and what is not.

Tank

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Read it now. Haven't read the other comments yet.

Character flaws are what makes characters interesting, looks like you have plenty of those!
Do we have a name for 'crippled guy'?

I'm on the third draft now, so yes. But, it's a detail I'm omitting here because it plays into the actual plot. Once I get somewhere with this novel, I'll share it.

Then 'John' for the moment.


Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Is the ship breaking done on the surface of the Earth, the surface of the some other planet, in orbit around the Earth or in orbit around some other planet?

It's a far off planet and it is done on the surface under hideous conditions (only desert) similar to the photos I linked. This is a very high-poverty planet, and many parts of it are extremely backward.
Ok.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
I think your personal insights into religion, religious people and faith in general are very valuable. I could never write those from experience because I have never believed in the supernatural.

Part of me wishes it hadn't taken until I was 40 to think through all of that. But, honestly, I would never give up the wonderful people at my church, the experience preaching and learning how to cook there (we do a potluck after every service, so I had to learn to cook), and the way that the act of preaching and preparing sermons and thinking through the pastor's sermons led me to rationally reject the religion of my childhood.
Very interesting. Velma was a deep believer who found her way out from the comfort blanket of institutionalised superstition.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
What do you think makes 'cripple guy' a sympathetic character that I would want to find out more about him?

Until you get to know him, the big one is that he is going to stay there for a month to help out the missionary who is now very sick. However, his personality is interesting when he starts opening up.
Ok.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Why is he and he and not a she?

The majority of my heroes are male because I'm male. However, every novel I've written usually coalesces around a character I've somehow come up with. He was born in my mind blond, blue eyed, and using leg braces and crutches. I built a story around that. Other books have starred female characters. An elderly physics professor was a fun character: she was tough, intelligent, funny, and at the point in her life where she had nothing to lose because she had lost most of it already because she was a widow and estranged from her two children. Another favorite hasn't been written yet but will be the star of the third book in this shipbreaking series if I ever get there: a hoarder (also a widow) who is overweight and has spent most of her life playing victim...until the story forces her into action and a bunch of major life changes.
Sounds interesting.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Are we in a universe where faster than light travel is possible?

Yes, but I put some strong limits on it. FTL is only possible well outside of a solar system. It occurs by a series of hops. A lot of travel time is wasted traveling into and out of a solar system.
Sensible compromise.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Are we in the near or far future?

Pretty far. I keep it vague and do not reference Earth very often. A lot of people are not living an idyllic Star Trek future, and there is a lot of poverty. Naturally, there are places with a great futuristic setting. The missionary came from one of those places.
Sounds good.


Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Have intelligent aliens been discovered?

They exist, but are known mostly through second hand stories. One of the characters describes them as "foul things gibbering in the darkness" which he is quoting, though I don't recall the reference offhand. That character, in my Christian days, was meant to be a super-conservative Christian who felt he was justified in doing anything "because God", and was meant as an example of what a Christian is not. But, he is right about the aliens. They are the ultimate villains in the thing even though they don't ever appear. They're the ones pulling the strings. I want them kept mysterious and alien, so I'll keep them offstage unless I ever figure out how to portray a truly alien being.
They sound a little 'cardboard cut out' bad guys. A bit like demons. I think you have a potential plot twist here that when a meeting happens it turns out that a lot of the aliens bad rep comes from propaganda to dispel any glamour an alien race could have. In fact you could consider playing it that the aliens have avoided us because they see us as the demonic bad guys and are horrified by our behaviour. Just a thought.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
There is also a novel I want to rewrite from my earlier days that involves a parasitic fungus. When it takes over human hosts, it gains control of the host's mind and becomes self-aware.
Excellent Zombie movie premise! :D


Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
If so do humans interact with them?

There are humans which have interacted with them, but the accounts are confusing and contradictory. And I keep this offstage, at least until I figure out how to write a truly alien being.
Nice to keep a surprise in your pocket.

This sounds like the sort of SciFi I could read and enjoy.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Waski_the_Squirrel

I was really nervous about starting this thread, but I'm getting great feedback, so it has turned out well.

Quote from: Tank on December 28, 2015, 08:44:01 AM
Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Read it now. Haven't read the other comments yet.

Character flaws are what makes characters interesting, looks like you have plenty of those!
Do we have a name for 'crippled guy'?

I'm on the third draft now, so yes. But, it's a detail I'm omitting here because it plays into the actual plot. Once I get somewhere with this novel, I'll share it.

Then 'John' for the moment.

You're not far off. The main thing is that he has no surname. Thanks to the dominant religion on his planet, illegitimate children don't get surnames. This is similar to Game of Thrones where such children get generic surnames. And, yes, he's very flawed. He's a decent, moral person, but no saint, and sometimes makes really bad decisions. He's not an anti-hero, but certainly not the stereotypical hero either.

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Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
I think your personal insights into religion, religious people and faith in general are very valuable. I could never write those from experience because I have never believed in the supernatural.

Part of me wishes it hadn't taken until I was 40 to think through all of that. But, honestly, I would never give up the wonderful people at my church, the experience preaching and learning how to cook there (we do a potluck after every service, so I had to learn to cook), and the way that the act of preaching and preparing sermons and thinking through the pastor's sermons led me to rationally reject the religion of my childhood.
Very interesting. Velma was a deep believer who found her way out from the comfort blanket of institutionalised superstition.

I've read science fiction which proposes humanity will "outgrow" religion. I don't think it will happen. I think religion will change. But, I don't think it will end. I think new religions will develop, and I think some contemporary religions will evolve into another form. But, I think it will be here forever. It's a little depressing to me to say that, but I think religion is part of humanity.

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Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Why is he and he and not a she?

The majority of my heroes are male because I'm male. However, every novel I've written usually coalesces around a character I've somehow come up with. He was born in my mind blond, blue eyed, and using leg braces and crutches. I built a story around that. Other books have starred female characters. An elderly physics professor was a fun character: she was tough, intelligent, funny, and at the point in her life where she had nothing to lose because she had lost most of it already because she was a widow and estranged from her two children. Another favorite hasn't been written yet but will be the star of the third book in this shipbreaking series if I ever get there: a hoarder (also a widow) who is overweight and has spent most of her life playing victim...until the story forces her into action and a bunch of major life changes.
Sounds interesting.
I should mention that the current novel was originally written with 3 viewpoint characters. Two of them were female. I dropped one of the women in the third draft because while she added a useful perspective, she wasn't actually very active. She was one who let things happen to her. However, the other woman is strong and even in the early drafts was very active. I'm increasing that. Because I dropped the other female as a viewpoint (but not as a character) I also have to pass her interactions with the villains on to the two remaining viewpoint characters. This actually makes the villains more menacing.

Quote
Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Have intelligent aliens been discovered?

They exist, but are known mostly through second hand stories. One of the characters describes them as "foul things gibbering in the darkness" which he is quoting, though I don't recall the reference offhand. That character, in my Christian days, was meant to be a super-conservative Christian who felt he was justified in doing anything "because God", and was meant as an example of what a Christian is not. But, he is right about the aliens. They are the ultimate villains in the thing even though they don't ever appear. They're the ones pulling the strings. I want them kept mysterious and alien, so I'll keep them offstage unless I ever figure out how to portray a truly alien being.
They sound a little 'cardboard cut out' bad guys. A bit like demons. I think you have a potential plot twist here that when a meeting happens it turns out that a lot of the aliens bad rep comes from propaganda to dispel any glamour an alien race could have. In fact you could consider playing it that the aliens have avoided us because they see us as the demonic bad guys and are horrified by our behaviour. Just a thought.

Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
There is also a novel I want to rewrite from my earlier days that involves a parasitic fungus. When it takes over human hosts, it gains control of the host's mind and becomes self-aware.
Excellent Zombie movie premise! :D

I need to send you a bill for a book I just bought. I've been a bit afraid of aliens. I figured keeping them offstage was best. But, you excited the science teacher in me. I may have a degree in Physics, but I've taught enough Biology to appreciate and even enjoy it: living in rural areas provides that kind of opportunity. So, I just purchased Clifford Pickover's book, The Science of Aliens. I'm hoping it will help me develop more "well-rounded" aliens for the eventual sequels. There is also a possibility of human and alien interpretations being quite different.

Quote
Quote from: Waski_the_Squirrel on December 04, 2015, 01:26:10 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
If so do humans interact with them?

There are humans which have interacted with them, but the accounts are confusing and contradictory. And I keep this offstage, at least until I figure out how to write a truly alien being.
Nice to keep a surprise in your pocket.

This sounds like the sort of SciFi I could read and enjoy.

I hope so. I've enjoyed some of the classic aliens. But, if I introduce aliens, I want them to be more than people with bumps on their forehead. I want them to be truly alien.  Thank-you for all your feedback.

Quote from: Recusant on December 01, 2015, 05:07:03 AM
I haven't thought about it a lot, but it seems to me that Christianity would go through some changes as humanity spread to other worlds, especially if those other worlds had life of their own (though not necessarily intelligent life). Maybe not drastic changes, and I'm not even sure what sort of changes would make sense. For instance, the pope is the Catholic god's official representative on Earth. Does his authority extend to all planets inhabited by human beings?

You didn't go into much detail regarding the non-Christian religion the hero was born into, but it sounds monotheistic. Maybe a polytheistic religion would give a greater contrast with Christianity?

Again, thanks for an engaging and thought-provoking post.  :studious:

This was a really helpful post. I invented a new denomination back when I was a Christian. Why not go the whole way and invent a new derivative faith to match new planets? This is especially true if I don't tie the story to the Christian faith by name.

As for the Catholic part: my idea was that the monastery had been cut off from Earth for centuries and was a mutated form of Catholicism. I figured a future novel could figure out the details. But, now I'm thinking that I can be a little more vague.

As for the local religion: it's sort of polytheistic. There is one primary god, but the other gods sit at his table. This was how it took over the planet. No one gave up their religion. The only religions that had trouble were those who wouldn't allow their god to be part of another religion. Because this dominant religion was subsidized by the Empire, it had all sorts of tangible inducements to join it.