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What Atheists think about Homosexuality?

Started by OhCheese, August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM

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SatanicBurrito

What do atheists think about homosexuality?

I might get some flak for this.  I think right now socially it's more acceptable to be gay than it is to be an atheist.  Just looking at my Facebook friends - several openly gay friends.  Very few openly atheist.  (Ok, maybe I need new friends...)

Of course, the new tolerace for homosexuality happened mostly recently.  I see the start of our atheist revolution happening. I think maybe in 5 years my above statement will be no longer accurate.  Good for us.

Tank

Quote from: SatanicBurrito on October 05, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
What do atheists think about homosexuality?

I might get some flak for this.  I think right now socially it's more acceptable to be gay than it is to be an atheist.  Just looking at my Facebook friends - several openly gay friends.  Very few openly atheist.  (Ok, maybe I need new friends...)

Of course, the new tolerace for homosexuality happened mostly recently.  I see the start of our atheist revolution happening. I think maybe in 5 years my above statement will be no longer accurate.  Good for us.
Hopefully you'll be right, I suspect you'll be wrong. Atheism will becme more acceptable but to religious fendimentalists atheism represents a bigger threat than homosexuality. Homosexuality can be accomodated (hate the sin not the sinner) in a way that overt atheism cannot. I personally suspect that as casual atheism becomes the norm one gets a reduction in size of the casual religious population. I think this will bring extremist theists together and they'll feel more and more threatened and isolated. Which is why a secular society that supports religious diversity is critical to the peaceful transition from a predominatly theistic to atheistic culture.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Denty420

I personally have never had a problem with homosexuals or lesbians, even when I was a devout Christian. It's their business who they choose to love and make love with. As to how atheists in general view homosexuality, I can't speak for every atheist but the ones in my circle of friends are pretty much of the same opinion as me. Come to think of it, one or two of them are actually gay themselves.
It does not matter if you are a person of faith or an atheist. Life shits on everybody from the same height.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: SatanicBurrito on October 05, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
Of course, the new tolerace for homosexuality happened mostly recently.  I see the start of our atheist revolution happening. I think maybe in 5 years my above statement will be no longer accurate.  Good for us.

I may be being pessimistic, but I'd give it more 10 to 15 years considering the size of the fundy backlash going on.  Of course, I would be deliriously happy to be wrong as long as I was wrong in the 5 year direction.  Sometimes I have the horrible feeling Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale might actually be possible.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Sandra Craft

Quote from: RunFromMyLife on October 06, 2011, 01:17:01 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 05, 2011, 04:59:34 PM
Sometimes I have the horrible feeling Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale might actually be possible.

*Full body shudder*

Tell me about it.  I take some comfort from the thought that it's only a book, but it isn't like humans haven't done things just as crazy before.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

MathKat

Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
Quote from: Ragnar on August 06, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
QuoteSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??

I don't really think anything about homosexuality.  Homophobes strike me as people who should just mind their own business.

On the religious aspect; if the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is meant to be a kind, loving and mercifull god, then why would he cast people into Hell for the way he made them?


I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.

Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.

That's the excuse religious people use so they can discriminate against homosexuals guilt free.  They call it a choice and consider it a sin. 

MathKat

Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.

I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.

So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??



Personally, I've always considered myself to be bisexual.  I've dated both men and women.  However, I now live a heterosexual lifestyle.  I'm married (in fact today is my anniversary), and have a son.  My husband and I have experimented with other women sexually and there was a brief time where we together had a relationship with a woman who has been a close personal friend of mine for years, also bisexual.   It didn't work out because when you include a third person into an already established relationship and feelings get involved it becomes complicated and unfair.  No matter how hard you try to make it an equal relationship one person ends up becoming more of a 3rd wheel.  But there was no hard feelings involved.  She is still a great friend and is now married with a child.  We stopped our sexual escapades with other women when I became pregnant with my son.  Weather or not that's permanent or temporary I don't know at this point.  I think we just don't have the time and energy to put into it right now and would rather not explain it to our child until he's a little older. 

I don't know what the cause is.  I know I didn't choose to be this way.  If it's nature or nuture I don't know, but I do know I'm not the only one in my family.  My sister admitted to me a few years ago that she too is bisexual and engages in sex with other women together with her boyfriend.  My father always spoke of two of his cousins (brother's) who are both gay, these cousins are closer to my father's age and I've never had the pleasure of meeting them.  Two of my other cousins, also on my father's side are gay (also brothers) and one of them recently got married, in Boston.  I also have a cousin on my mother's side who is in her 60s who spent much of her life living a lie in a heterosexual relationship which was a complete disaster, she is now in committed relationship with her partner. 

Needless to say, I don't really care what homosexuals do.  No one is being harmed.  I don't understand how anyone would feel that they have the authority to tell anyone how they should live their lives or who they should be allowed to marry. 

Sandra Craft

Quote from: MathKat on October 06, 2011, 11:06:46 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.

Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.

That's the excuse religious people use so they can discriminate against homosexuals guilt free.  They call it a choice and consider it a sin. 

I hope I got the quote attributions right.  I don't think it can be called an excuse if they honestly do believe that, and doesn't it complicate the issue just a little that actions are choices?  I've always been uncomfortable with the "gay party" position that there's no element of choice involved in sexuality at all when there clearly is, since everyone chooses the behavior they engage in whether it's homo-, hetero-, bi-, S&M role-playing or whatever.  I think we'd be arguing from a much stronger position if we said that, altho the feelings aren't a choice, the actions are and so what?  We have the same right to make those choices as any other citizen.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

MathKat

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 03:58:21 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 06, 2011, 11:06:46 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.

Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.

That's the excuse religious people use so they can discriminate against homosexuals guilt free.  They call it a choice and consider it a sin. 

I hope I got the quote attributions right.  I don't think it can be called an excuse if they honestly do believe that, and doesn't it complicate the issue just a little that actions are choices?  I've always been uncomfortable with the "gay party" position that there's no element of choice involved in sexuality at all when there clearly is, since everyone chooses the behavior they engage in whether it's homo-, hetero-, bi-, S&M role-playing or whatever.  I think we'd be arguing from a much stronger position if we said that, altho the feelings aren't a choice, the actions are and so what?  We have the same right to make those choices as any other citizen.

You have it right.  The lifestyle you choose is a choice.  But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.

I have a cousin who is obviously homosexual.  According to my mom everyone pretty much knew it to begin with.  But she chose to deny it.  She got married, had a child and lived that way because she thought she was supposed to.  It wasn't a happy existence for anyone involved.  When it was over she came out, found her partner and now she's happy. 

My situation is a little different.  I've been called selfish by straight and homosexuals alike.  I can understand because I chose to go back and forth, I didn't have to do that.  Some bisexuals lean more toward one sex or the other.  That's not me.  I've always felt an equal attraction to both sexes, I can remember feeling that way as early as age 9.  But I've always tried to be fair and honest about it.  I've never tried to hurt anyone.  My husband excepts me for who I am and enjoys the lifestyle with me. 

My arguement is if you can't choose the way you feel, why should you have to choose a lifestyle that doesn't fit or settle for less because others have a problem with it?

Sandra Craft

Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:52:47 AM
The lifestyle you choose is a choice.  But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.

No question about that, but I don't think the feelings are what the 'phobes get their drawers in a twist about and base their anti-gay arguments on, or at least it's not the main thing. The behavior is what makes them foam at the mouth and it seems to me when we refuse to acknowledge that they're right about the behavior being a choice we're just muddying the water and misdirecting the argument.

QuoteI have a cousin who is obviously homosexual.  According to my mom everyone pretty much knew it to begin with.  But she chose to deny it.  She got married, had a child and lived that way because she thought she was supposed to.  It wasn't a happy existence for anyone involved.  When it was over she came out, found her partner and now she's happy. 

I have an aunt who tried the same thing, tho in her case the marriage lasted less than a year before it became completely unbearable for everyone and she had to give it up.  That was followed by a 30-year relationship with another woman which, tho it ended too, was much better and I dare say healthier for her.  So no question on my part that people should live according to their nature and not according to someone's dogma. 

QuoteMy situation is a little different.  I've been called selfish by straight and homosexuals alike.  I can understand because I chose to go back and forth, I didn't have to do that.  Some bisexuals lean more toward one sex or the other.  That's not me.  I've always felt an equal attraction to both sexes, I can remember feeling that way as early as age 9.  But I've always tried to be fair and honest about it.  I've never tried to hurt anyone.  My husband excepts me for who I am and enjoys the lifestyle with me. 

Totally understand what it's like to be called selfish, and told to "just choose a side!", by both straights and gays.  But as far as I'm concerned, there is no "side" to this and no reason to create a self-imposed sexual barrier.  That seems to me every bit as unnatural, assinine and presumptuous as insisting on mandatory heterosexuality.  Personally, I generally prefer other women and I only get romantic about women but I consider men a lot of fun, esp. when they're naked, and all other things being equal I enjoy indulging in sex with men occasionally.  It makes for a great bit of variety.  It can still surprise me when some gays insist there's no such thing as bisexuality and and trot out what is essentially a requirement for mandatory exclusive homosexuality for anybody who's even had a homoerotic dream.

QuoteMy arguement is if you can't choose the way you feel, why should you have to choose a lifestyle that doesn't fit or settle for less because others have a problem with it?

You shouldn't, no one should no matter what the lifestyle choice is (obviously assuming that these lifestyles don't involve violation of consent), I just don't think it moves things forward to deny there's any choice involved at all.  I choose what I do with my life the same as, for instance, a Promise Keeper or surrendered wife does and I have the same right to my choices that they do.  Let's get that straight with the 'phobes and move on.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tank

Being forced to behave against one's personal choice is a very difficult place for anybody to be. My wife knows a gay Pakistani Muslim man who was forced into a marriage by his mother. It lasted about 4 months. The break-up was spectacularly bad with the wife accusing the mother of lying to her and also accusing her gay husband of rape (how does that work?). As a result the gay man and his family have had to move from Bradford after receiving death threats.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

MathKat

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 06:11:49 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:52:47 AM
The lifestyle you choose is a choice.  But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.

No question about that, but I don't think the feelings are what the 'phobes get their drawers in a twist about and base their anti-gay arguments on, or at least it's not the main thing. The behavior is what makes them foam at the mouth and it seems to me when we refuse to acknowledge that they're right about the behavior being a choice we're just muddying the water and misdirecting the argument.

I'm not sure about this.  I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice.  I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now."  But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates.  As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship.  They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back". 


Sandra Craft

Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 06:11:49 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:52:47 AM
The lifestyle you choose is a choice.  But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.

No question about that, but I don't think the feelings are what the 'phobes get their drawers in a twist about and base their anti-gay arguments on, or at least it's not the main thing. The behavior is what makes them foam at the mouth and it seems to me when we refuse to acknowledge that they're right about the behavior being a choice we're just muddying the water and misdirecting the argument.

I'm not sure about this.  I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice.  I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now."  But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates.  As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship.  They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back". 

Oh I don't believe there's only one thing that bothers the 'phobes (I don't believe there's "one thing" about anything -- I'm not a one size fits all type) about homosexuality, it's just that those I've talked to and read tend to focus on behavior, which makes sense since that's the thing about it that's most obvious.  I've even read articles by honest "ex-gays" who admit that they'll never not be homosexual, they just believe they've been given the tools necessary to suppress the behavior and, if possible, engage in heterosexual behavior.  How long that lasts is anybody's guess.

Also, I've had 2 (not a representative sample, I know) rabidly homophobic types tell me flat out that they don't give a damn what homosexuals feel, they just want us never to act on it.  Which, really, is fine by me, because I don't care how they feel either as long as they don't try to do anything legal to interfere with my life, or anyone elses life.  Then we'll have a problem.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

LukevanVeith


Stevil

Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
I'm not sure about this.  I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice.  I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now."  But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates.  As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship.  They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back". 
But whether it is by choice or not this isn't really a valid tack with regards to debate. So what if it were a choice?
Christian's believe that people have free will.
It makes no difference really, should non Christians choose to live their lives in a way that makes some Christians around them more comfortable? You need to live life for yourself, not to please others, especially not to please people that you don't have a personal relationship with.