As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.
I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.
So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
People don't need my approval with regards to whom they love or whom they have sex with, what positions or how many people, or whether contraceptives are used, whether it is for procreation or recreation.
As long as it is consentual and each person is of age and sound mind, and as long as it is in an appropriate place e.g. not on a public sidewalk, then it is none of my business.
As long as something doesn't unreasonably harm another person against their will, it should be none of anyone elses business. Homosexuality falls under that.
Edit: I don't mean that people should keep it to themselves, I just mean that no one should be trying to stop or control it.
I don't think any different of my gay friends than I do my straight friends.
OhCheese
You may find it useful to read this thread http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7711.0
I consider myself homoflexible; therefore, I don't care as long as it is consensual.
Thank you all for sharing your views. all of you talked about there as long as it is not outdoors.....etc so that is not your business.
Well for me I have a very strong feelings about ethics, and that cause me a lot of problems between me and my boyfriend, because he had a lot of sexual experiments before know me, but my opinion about it was that I don't accept it at all, like there is a lot of things people do it (Gay or Straight) about sex sometimes bother me like sex parties, sex in public or sex in nightclub ....etc all that make me feel sick, or somethings in pride happen like naked guys and that most thing I HATE it because who want to see a naked guys in street >:( I am very very proud of my homosexuality but there is A LOT of things I don't like it in homosexual community.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 11:02:32 PM
Thank you all for sharing your views. all of you talked about there as long as it is not outdoors.....etc so that is not your business.
Well for me I have a very strong feelings about ethics, and that cause me a lot of problems between me and my boyfriend, because he had a lot of sexual experiments before know me, but my opinion about it was that I don't accept it at all, like there is a lot of things people do it (Gay or Straight) about sex sometimes bother me like sex parties, sex in public or sex in nightclub ....etc all that make me feel sick, or somethings in pride happen like naked guys and that most thing I HATE it because who want to see a naked guys in street >:( I am very very proud of my homosexuality but there is A LOT of things I don't like it in homosexual community.
Maybe they are rebelling against their perception of oppression? Homosexuals are probably similar to Hetrosexual with regards to sex parties and the like. It's not my scene but if everyone going to the party are into it then I won't judge.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 11:02:32 PM
Thank you all for sharing your views. all of you talked about there as long as it is not outdoors.....etc so that is not your business.
Well for me I have a very strong feelings about ethics, and that cause me a lot of problems between me and my boyfriend, because he had a lot of sexual experiments before know me, but my opinion about it was that I don't accept it at all, like there is a lot of things people do it (Gay or Straight) about sex sometimes bother me like sex parties, sex in public or sex in nightclub ....etc all that make me feel sick, or somethings in pride happen like naked guys and that most thing I HATE it because who want to see a naked guys in street >:( I am very very proud of my homosexuality but there is A LOT of things I don't like it in homosexual community.
While I can understand why people have issues about sex in public, nudity in public doesn't bother me. There are roughly two kinds of bodies (not including hermaphrodites, but I think that just make it up to four kinds), male and female. I also think the human body is beautiful, wonderful, and artful. To me, there is nothing wrong with nudity. The only problem I foresee is guys getting a hard-on in public, which could be a problem; or people being picked on more for the way their bodies are.
Even though this is my thoughts on nudity in public, there are certain types of nude bodies I never want to see, lol. Plus I'm not 100% secure on how my naked body looks.
QuoteSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I don't really think anything about homosexuality. Homophobes strike me as people who should just mind their own business.
On the religious aspect; if the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is meant to be a kind, loving and mercifull god, then why would he cast people into Hell for the way he made them?
Quote from: Ragnar on August 06, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
QuoteSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I don't really think anything about homosexuality. Homophobes strike me as people who should just mind their own business.
On the religious aspect; if the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is meant to be a kind, loving and mercifull god, then why would he cast people into Hell for the way he made them?
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.
Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.
OhCheese, you can't really say what atheists think about any particular subject, because the only thing we all have in common is disbelief in god. But most of us tend to be reasonably liberal and tolerant and don't want to judge other people's sex lives, preach to them or pass laws to control them. That's certainly my attitude.
I keep wondering who the victim is in a consensual homosexual act, and theistic morality strikes me as abhorrent and immoral.
The theists don't seem to care that there is no victim. They see it as a sin, because that is how they have been taught. they then see these people as willfully and continully sinning against their beloved god. I am not sure why some of them take it upon themselves to act in god's absence towards these willful sinners.
Quote from: Stevil on August 06, 2011, 08:15:02 PM
The theists don't seem to care that there is no victim. They see it as a sin, because that is how they have been taught. they then see these people as willfully and continully sinning against their beloved god. I am not sure why some of them take it upon themselves to act in god's absence towards these willful sinners.
Quote from: OldGit on August 06, 2011, 11:10:25 AM
OhCheese, you can't really say what atheists think about any particular subject, because the only thing we all have in common is disbelief in god. But most of us tend to be reasonably liberal and tolerant and don't want to judge other people's sex lives, preach to them or pass laws to control them. That's certainly my attitude.
Quote from: Stevil on August 05, 2011, 11:33:58 PM
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 11:02:32 PM
Thank you all for sharing your views. all of you talked about there as long as it is not outdoors.....etc so that is not your business.
Well for me I have a very strong feelings about ethics, and that cause me a lot of problems between me and my boyfriend, because he had a lot of sexual experiments before know me, but my opinion about it was that I don't accept it at all, like there is a lot of things people do it (Gay or Straight) about sex sometimes bother me like sex parties, sex in public or sex in nightclub ....etc all that make me feel sick, or somethings in pride happen like naked guys and that most thing I HATE it because who want to see a naked guys in street >:( I am very very proud of my homosexuality but there is A LOT of things I don't like it in homosexual community.
Maybe they are rebelling against their perception of oppression? Homosexuals are probably similar to Hetrosexual with regards to sex parties and the like. It's not my scene but if everyone going to the party are into it then I won't judge.
Well that usually what I hear from gay people but for me in my opinion that is not excuse to do that "disgusting" things in my opinion.
Quote from: Munchkin GoddessWhile I can understand why people have issues about sex in public, nudity in public doesn't bother me. There are roughly two kinds of bodies (not including hermaphrodites, but I think that just make it up to four kinds), male and female. I also think the human body is beautiful, wonderful, and artful. To me, there is nothing wrong with nudity. The only problem I foresee is guys getting a hard-on in public, which could be a problem; or people being picked on more for the way their bodies are.
Even though this is my thoughts on nudity in public, there are certain types of nude bodies I never want to see, lol. Plus I'm not 100% secure on how my naked body looks
Can you imagine guy getting hard-on in public ::), I remember when that was happen to me when I was in school and I was scare if the teacher ask me some question and I need to stand up, so how about naked guy. well I can say that is gonna be brave and rude a same time.
Quote from: Ragnar on August 06, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
QuoteSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I don't really think anything about homosexuality. Homophobes strike me as people who should just mind their own business.
On the religious aspect; if the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is meant to be a kind, loving and mercifull god, then why would he cast people into Hell for the way he made them?
I always had that question about why God would send me to fire when I born this way, specially Christianity when they keep saying God is love, God loves you, God come here and die for you .....blah blah blah. phew, thank God that I stop believe in God :o lol
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
Quote from: Ragnar on August 06, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
QuoteSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I don't really think anything about homosexuality. Homophobes strike me as people who should just mind their own business.
On the religious aspect; if the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is meant to be a kind, loving and mercifull god, then why would he cast people into Hell for the way he made them?
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.
Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.
Well I can see that is mean Homosexuality is a choice, well Why I would choose to be Gay while I know that is gonna make my life as hell, why people in KSA choose to be Gay when they know that gonna cut their heads of their body, why in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, Uganda.....etc and the result for that is Die. and I am sure I didn't choose to be Gay, I born this way and I remember a first time I had crush on someone was my male teacher in school when I was 11 or 12 something like that, how a guy in that age can choose what he want to be sexuality??
Quote from: OldGit on August 06, 2011, 11:10:25 AM
OhCheese, you can't really say what atheists think about any particular subject, because the only thing we all have in common is disbelief in god. But most of us tend to be reasonably liberal and tolerant and don't want to judge other people's sex lives, preach to them or pass laws to control them. That's certainly my attitude.
I thought about that too before post the subject but there is no wrong to sharing the views.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 06, 2011, 05:27:21 PM
I keep wondering who the victim is in a consensual homosexual act, and theistic morality strikes me as abhorrent and immoral.
Sometimes it is very hard to discuss subjects like Homosexuality with religious people :-\ because already they decided to disagree about it.
Quote from: Stevil on August 06, 2011, 08:15:02 PM
The theists don't seem to care that there is no victim. They see it as a sin, because that is how they have been taught. they then see these people as willfully and continully sinning against their beloved god. I am not sure why some of them take it upon themselves to act in god's absence towards these willful sinners.
Maybe because they believe that God wants them to do that, like some crazy man get a dream that Jesus asked him to kill some Gay man live beside him :o
EDIT: Attributed Munchkin Goddess's quote. Tank
It would appear OhCheese that it is the thought of act of sodomy (anal sex) that upsets you, not male homosexuality itself? If this is so I tend to agree with you. I personally don't like the idea of sodomy male/male or male/female. But the critical bit is 'I personally'. One needs to be tolerant of others if we are all to get along. You can choose to do what you like in a relationship and if you don't like anal sex you don't have to do it, which of course you know. But with careful preparation the health risks of anal sex can be minimal. It is not for one person to condemn the consensual adult acts of others, however much one personally does not like them. This is not an atheist view, it's an adult one in my opinion.
There is also another opinion to consider. You can actually dislike homosexuality without being a homophobe.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PMSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
Who you have sex with is none of my business, nor does it affect my view of you in any way.
That said, it's not an "atheist perspective". I am an atheist. I don't care about sexual orientations. Two different and only indirectly related things.
Quote from: OhCheeseSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I don't care one way or the other...generally. The guy that buys the stuff for my department is gay. We have a great friendly relationship. He's not effeminate, but now and then lets (and I hate to say it) loose a telltale quip that would make one wonder if he was gay, but otherwise one would never know. Now, his boyfriend is flaming gay...and that puts me right off. I really can't stand to be around flamers and bull dike lesbians. Their mannerisms, speech, butch and mullet hair styles and manner of dress is very unappealing to me. But...
I don't care one way or the other and support (inactively) their search in the pursuit of happiness.
Sexuality in any of its forms has nothing to do (imho) with Atheism.
What two (or more) consenting adults do in their own privacy has nothing to do with me.
Im too busy trying to get on with my life to be bothered about other people's lives.
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 15, 2011, 10:53:36 AM
Sexuality in any of its forms has nothing to do (imho) with Atheism.
What two (or more) consenting adults do in their own privacy has nothing to do with me.
Im too busy trying to get on with my life to be bothered about other people's lives.
Exactly. if only the jesus blowers felt this way. ;)
People actually blow Jesus ? What a load of cock!
Sorry, I couldn't help but make that pun ;D
personally I don't have a problem with homosexuality, a person's sexual preference is their own personal choice, and has nothing to do with atheism whatsoever. I guess atheists from an Arab / Muslim background might have more of a problem with it due to their society's / Islam's general opposition to it. I imagine most of them would have been brought up being told homosexuality was terribly wrong, and some of the indoctrination may have stuck
I was bullied for about 7 years because of a very bitter girl decided to spread a rumor that I was gay, the obnoxious treatment I was subjected to made me develop a total distaste for homophobia and wont tolerate it even in the most flippant instances. The people who are homophobic need to realize that their fear is totally irrational and that they are scum to the same order as any violent criminals.
So what if somebody likes the same sex or both sexes, it has nothing to do with me or anyone else and good for them if they are open about there sexuality when there are millions ready to spurn them for it. It really pisses me off when people say "as long as its in private" that is still homophobia, if a same sex couple can't act the same in public as a straight couple then they are being oppressed and being subjected to homophobia.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 15, 2011, 11:26:57 PM
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 15, 2011, 10:53:36 AM
Sexuality in any of its forms has nothing to do (imho) with Atheism.
What two (or more) consenting adults do in their own privacy has nothing to do with me.
Im too busy trying to get on with my life to be bothered about other people's lives.
Exactly. if only the jesus blowers felt this way. ;)
Many "jesus blowers" do. It could be that you and others simply believe/hear the loud crowd over the silent many and assume all are the same.
Quote from: Crow on August 17, 2011, 02:32:33 AM
I was bullied for about 7 years because of a very bitter girl decided to spread a rumor that I was gay, the obnoxious treatment I was subjected to made me develop a total distaste for homophobia and wont tolerate it even in the most flippant instances. The people who are homophobic need to realize that their fear is totally irrational and that they are scum to the same order as any violent criminals.
So what if somebody likes the same sex or both sexes, it has nothing to do with me or anyone else and good for them if they are open about there sexuality when there are millions ready to spurn them for it. It really pisses me off when people say "as long as its in private" that is still homophobia, if a same sex couple can't act the same in public as a straight couple then they are being oppressed and being subjected to homophobia.
I'm glad you feel that way, Crow, though i'm really sorry you had to deal with such homophobic assholes. >___<
I used to argue the gay issue with a homophobic born-again at a previous job I had, and I was so passionate in my argument he asked me more than once if I were actually gay. The biggest point I used to bring up went something like "if you can prove to me beyond a shadow of doubt that gay love is a weaker emotion than straight love, if you can quantify that for me in black and white, I'll be happy to renounce my views, oppose gay marriage, whatever." What really used to get me going was when he would claim homosexuality was a choice. I'd ask him "so you think these people willfully chose to be a member of the most hated, most biased-against group on the planet? For what? The sex can't possibly be that good." I don't know, maybe it was because I was fortunate enough to be raised around mostly open-minded people and have a couple of gay friends growing up, but I don't see any difference apart from who they're in love with. But these are just my own points of view, and can't be readily applied to other atheists; I've held these views for a lot of years, even when I had "faith". Gays, both male and female, are unfortunately looked down upon in most every segment of the population, largely in part due to religious teachings. I look at gay marriage the same way I look at abortion; if you're against it, don't have one.
That what drives me mad. How religious people think being gay is a choice.
And being homophobic is beyond dispicable. It's the same as hating an individual for being black . Being gay isnt a choice. Like skin color, sexual orientation isnt something yoy can help.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 23, 2011, 11:11:19 PM
I'm glad you feel that way, Crow, though i'm really sorry you had to deal with such homophobic assholes. >___<
You don't have anything to be sorry about, but thanks for your sincerity. Now I'm glad it happened as it allowed me to gain a perspective that isn't really understandable unless you are a victim of it, it also made me ask some big questions about myself which I don't think I would have ever asked if I hadn't been exposed to it.
Aww! *hugs Crow* ^___^
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 24, 2011, 12:07:14 AM
That what drives me mad. How religious people think being gay is a choice.
Another misguided preconceived notion. Being gay is not a choice (however I cannot discount that certainly there are a few that choose to be gay)
Every religious person i've met has preached people "choose" to be gay, therefore choose to "sin" and end up in "hell." :-[
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 24, 2011, 05:43:45 AM
Every religious person i've met has preached people "choose" to be gay, therefore choose to "sin" and end up in "hell." :-[
Let's put a number to that "Every religious person..."
I'd say you've not met the majority of Christians and therefore cannot broad-stroke Christians with such ignorant thinking. I acknowledge that the few that scream the loudest make these kinds of points, but again just because they are the loudest, doesn't mean they speak for the whole.
Most Christians will differentiate choice with born this way thinking. They may believe you had no choice in your sexual orientation. But they will say you have choice in your actions (and therefore your choice to sin or not).
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 23, 2011, 11:01:07 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 15, 2011, 11:26:57 PM
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 15, 2011, 10:53:36 AM
Sexuality in any of its forms has nothing to do (imho) with Atheism.
What two (or more) consenting adults do in their own privacy has nothing to do with me.
Im too busy trying to get on with my life to be bothered about other people's lives.
Exactly. if only the jesus blowers felt this way. ;)
Many "jesus blowers" do. It could be that you and others simply believe/hear the loud crowd over the silent many and assume all are the same.
For once, I agree completely with your statement here, AD.
Please understand, though, that it's not just that we hear that loud crowd over the silent many - it's that the loud crowd are the ones in power. The loud crowd preaches to the silent many and the silent many continue to allow them to do it, and pay them rather well to do it. Maybe if the silent ones would speak up, this all would be a non-issue.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 24, 2011, 05:48:53 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 24, 2011, 05:43:45 AM
Every religious person i've met has preached people "choose" to be gay, therefore choose to "sin" and end up in "hell." :-[
Let's put a number to that "Every religious person..."
I'd say you've not met the majority of Christians and therefore cannot broad-stroke Christians with such ignorant thinking. I acknowledge that the few that scream the loudest make these kinds of points, but again just because they are the loudest, doesn't mean they speak for the whole.
I think you're probably right. The loud crowd get the headlines because that sells media time/space.
For the new people here there is a more achademic discussion on homesexuality in the science forum http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7711.0
The nature/nurture debate is represented diagramatically here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7711.msg118343#msg118343
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 24, 2011, 05:48:53 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 24, 2011, 05:43:45 AM
Every religious person i've met has preached people "choose" to be gay, therefore choose to "sin" and end up in "hell." :-[
Let's put a number to that "Every religious person..."
While not a definitive number, I'd say that was a fair limit.
Quote from: DaemonWulf on August 24, 2011, 07:37:21 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 24, 2011, 05:48:53 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 24, 2011, 05:43:45 AM
Every religious person i've met has preached people "choose" to be gay, therefore choose to "sin" and end up in "hell." :-[
Let's put a number to that "Every religious person..."
While not a definitive number, I'd say that was a fair limit.
The irony of the this, is that AnimatedDirt is having a problem with generalizations. I've had many discussions with AnimatedDirt where he's used many generalizations about me and atheists. There may be a lesson here for AnimatedDirt: seeing how much he likes being generalized might enlighten him to refrain from doing the same to others in the future.
General. I just had to say it one more time.
Quote from: Davin on August 24, 2011, 08:09:45 PM
The irony of the this, is that AnimatedDirt is having a problem with generalizations. I've had many discussions with AnimatedDirt where he's used many generalizations about me and atheists. There may be a lesson here for AnimatedDirt: seeing how much he likes being generalized might enlighten him to refrain from doing the same to others in the future.
General. I just had to say it one more time.
Point taken. :) I'll try and remember this. Thx.
<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/klXUOM4wtT8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 11:02:32 PM
I am very very proud of my homosexuality but there is A LOT of things I don't like it in homosexual community.
I can't say I'm proud of being bisexual, anymore than I'm proud of having freckles or a tendency to sneeze first thing in the morning but I do understand the point of not being ashamed of those things either. Having grown up among conservative Xtians I think I must have gotten lucky to have missed that part of the indoctrination (perhaps because I was also a very late bloomer, or because I had other things to worry about). I can't say the same for one of my aunts, tho, who has always been tormented by the idea that her sexuality is sinful, despite having joined a relatively liberal church as a young adult.
I can also understand not liking how some people behave but really, ever seen a Mardi Gras? This kind of acting up or acting out seems to me a human thing, not a sexuality thing. I don't like it either and in fact there are a number of sexual things having nothing to do with orientation that I find repugnant (S/M for one), but I find them very easy to avoid, and I have no trouble finding friends just as vanilla as I am.
In any case, I'm on the live and let live side as long as there are no consent issues involved.
just read that Iran's recently executed three gay mean for 'forbidden acts against religion' >:( lest we forget how unpleasant some religions are in their views on homosexuality...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/gay-men-hanged_n_951162.html
*sighs* .... Can't wait until those barbaric cultures cease to exist..
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 08, 2011, 04:59:25 PM
*sighs* .... Can't wait until those barbaric cultures cease to exist..
What is sad, is these things happen in the middle east because they can. I can't tell you how many times this very idea was discussed and even endorsed by devout Xtians at the churches I grew up in. I heard a nazerene minister say that homosexuals should be put to death for their actions in the same breath he talked about forgiveness and love thy neighbor. Hypocritical bastards.
I attended a nazerene church as a teenager where the teen sunday school teacher raped one of his female students in the church, and the pastor protected him and it was swept under the rug. He claimed the man came to him, confessed his sin to him and was forgiven by god so no further punishment was needed. This was the same man who made the comment about executing gays. So what he is saying is, it's ok to rape a child, as long as she's female? And they wonder why people are leaving the churches.
Full support of gay rights. As an American, I find it immensely hypocritical that a country founded as an escape from oppression can so willfully oppress. This is one massive failure in church-state separation.
That's because freedom doesn't exist. This country is dellusional; built on hypocrisy and blood. America is a disgusting joke.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 10, 2011, 02:47:54 AM
That's because freedom doesn't exist. This country is dellusional; built on hypocrisy and blood. America is a disgusting joke.
America is not a disgusting joke, it's a huge country made up of hundreds of millions of unique people that collctivly have still to get past their 'teenage years'. Because of it's size and geography America has never been invaded or really collectivly threatened. The wars across Europe have bred a collective psyche that has created a realisation that freedom is to be valued, but it comes with responsibility, a combination that too many Americans, in my opinion, don't really appear to appretiate.
Quote from: fyv0h on September 10, 2011, 12:46:21 AM
Full support of gay rights. As an American, I find it immensely hypocritical that a country founded as an escape from oppression can so willfully oppress. This is one massive failure in church-state separation.
I personally think the most hypocritical aspect is those that escaped oppression created segregation which in turn has helped create a lesser form of what they wanted to escape in the first place, which from an outsiders perspective seems to be getting greater.
Quote from: Tank on September 10, 2011, 08:58:03 AM
America is not a disgusting joke, it's a huge country made up of hundreds of millions of unique people that collctivly have still to get past their 'teenage years'. Because of it's size and geography America has never been invaded or really collectivly threatened. The wars across Europe have bred a collective psyche that has created a realisation that freedom is to be valued, but it comes with responsibility, a combination that too many Americans, in my opinion, don't really appear to appretiate.
Totally agree.
Quote from: Crow on September 12, 2011, 02:31:23 AM
Quote from: fyv0h on September 10, 2011, 12:46:21 AM
Full support of gay rights. As an American, I find it immensely hypocritical that a country founded as an escape from oppression can so willfully oppress. This is one massive failure in church-state separation.
I personally think the most hypocritical aspect is those that escaped oppression created segregation which in turn has helped create a lesser form of what they wanted to escape in the first place, which from an outsiders perspective seems to be getting greater.
Therein lies the inherent dangers of church based politics. As they say, history repeats itself.
Well, for me it's okay, but remember to not disturbing other people. It's your right dude.
As a straight, I suggest you to have a s*x with a girl (even though I never had one). IMO, a "sword" should have it's own place.
No offense :)
Quote from: LukevanVeith on September 25, 2011, 09:08:34 AM
Well, for me it's okay, but remember to not disturbing other people. It's your right dude.
As a straight, I suggest you to have a s*x with a girl (even though I never had one). IMO, a "sword" should have it's own place.
No offense :)
Ok, you are straight; would you take the advice of a gay person to have sex with a man? Does that sound like something you might do?
As for not disturbing other people, that can be pretty much impossible, given how easily disturbed (http://www.acceptingabundance.com/2011/08/cant-even-go-to-park.html) some people are.
What do atheists think about homosexuality? This atheist thinks gay people are cool. Considering much of the world is stuck in straights-only mode, to happily and healthfuly live an open gay lifestyle is and expression of one's bravery and honesty. I say kudos to my LGBT brothers and sisters.
Quote from: LukevanVeith on September 25, 2011, 09:08:34 AM
Well, for me it's okay, but remember to not disturbing other people. It's your right dude.
As a straight, I suggest you to have a s*x with a girl (even though I never had one). IMO, a "sword" should have it's own place.
No offense :)
Did you have to have sex with another man in order to know you are straight?
I'm guessing not.... (see where i'm going with this?)
and, lol, why is "sex" blotted out...this isn't a prude forum nor is sex a curse word; it's a natural action that people do with each other.
Quote from: Crow on September 12, 2011, 02:31:23 AM
Quote from: fyv0h on September 10, 2011, 12:46:21 AM
Full support of gay rights. As an American, I find it immensely hypocritical that a country founded as an escape from oppression can so willfully oppress. This is one massive failure in church-state separation.
I personally think the most hypocritical aspect is those that escaped oppression created segregation which in turn has helped create a lesser form of what they wanted to escape in the first place, which from an outsiders perspective seems to be getting greater.
Fully supported by biblical text. Still a massive failure in church-state separation.
Quote from: LukevanVeith on September 25, 2011, 09:08:34 AM
As a straight, I suggest you to have a s*x with a girl (even though I never had one). IMO, a "sword" should have it's own place.
No offense :)
I'm not going to put on my annoying Austrian accent and ask about the use of the word "sword."
It's tempting, but I have to resist as I fear my asking reveals aspects of my psyche best kept hidden.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 26, 2011, 04:27:09 AM
I'm not going to put on my annoying Austrian accent and ask about the use of the word "sword."
It's tempting, but I have to resist as I fear my asking reveals aspects of my psyche best kept hidden.
I wonder what hot and sweaty bedroom action between a reasonably round lump of clay and an equally round genderless pudding would look like... ???
Hiding aspects of my personality does not make me appear less weird, so I am quite free to muse about such things ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on September 26, 2011, 11:11:05 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 26, 2011, 04:27:09 AM
I'm not going to put on my annoying Austrian accent and ask about the use of the word "sword."
It's tempting, but I have to resist as I fear my asking reveals aspects of my psyche best kept hidden.
I wonder what hot and sweaty bedroom action between a reasonably round lump of clay and an equally round genderless pudding would look like... ???
Hiding aspects of my personality does not make me appear less weird, so I am quite free to muse about such things ;D
37 seconds and onwards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az73J_GlRgY
:o Seriously?!
*watching*
... ...
...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.mylot.com%2FuserImages%2Fimages%2Fpostphotos%2F2142078.gif&hash=fda09a22e43d57ad9d72adffdee5be9e2690e769)
Glad you liked that ;D
What do atheists think about homosexuality?
I might get some flak for this. I think right now socially it's more acceptable to be gay than it is to be an atheist. Just looking at my Facebook friends - several openly gay friends. Very few openly atheist. (Ok, maybe I need new friends...)
Of course, the new tolerace for homosexuality happened mostly recently. I see the start of our atheist revolution happening. I think maybe in 5 years my above statement will be no longer accurate. Good for us.
Quote from: SatanicBurrito on October 05, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
What do atheists think about homosexuality?
I might get some flak for this. I think right now socially it's more acceptable to be gay than it is to be an atheist. Just looking at my Facebook friends - several openly gay friends. Very few openly atheist. (Ok, maybe I need new friends...)
Of course, the new tolerace for homosexuality happened mostly recently. I see the start of our atheist revolution happening. I think maybe in 5 years my above statement will be no longer accurate. Good for us.
Hopefully you'll be right, I suspect you'll be wrong. Atheism will becme more acceptable but to religious fendimentalists atheism represents a bigger threat than homosexuality. Homosexuality can be accomodated (hate the sin not the sinner) in a way that overt atheism cannot. I personally suspect that as casual atheism becomes the norm one gets a reduction in size of the casual religious population. I think this will bring extremist theists together and they'll feel more and more threatened and isolated. Which is why a secular society that supports religious diversity is critical to the peaceful transition from a predominatly theistic to atheistic culture.
I personally have never had a problem with homosexuals or lesbians, even when I was a devout Christian. It's their business who they choose to love and make love with. As to how atheists in general view homosexuality, I can't speak for every atheist but the ones in my circle of friends are pretty much of the same opinion as me. Come to think of it, one or two of them are actually gay themselves.
Quote from: SatanicBurrito on October 05, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
Of course, the new tolerace for homosexuality happened mostly recently. I see the start of our atheist revolution happening. I think maybe in 5 years my above statement will be no longer accurate. Good for us.
I may be being pessimistic, but I'd give it more 10 to 15 years considering the size of the fundy backlash going on. Of course, I would be deliriously happy to be wrong as long as I was wrong in the 5 year direction. Sometimes I have the horrible feeling Margaret Atwood's
The Handmaid's Tale might actually be possible.
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on October 06, 2011, 01:17:01 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 05, 2011, 04:59:34 PM
Sometimes I have the horrible feeling Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale might actually be possible.
*Full body shudder*
Tell me about it. I take some comfort from the thought that it's only a book, but it isn't like humans haven't done things just as crazy before.
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
Quote from: Ragnar on August 06, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
QuoteSo what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I don't really think anything about homosexuality. Homophobes strike me as people who should just mind their own business.
On the religious aspect; if the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is meant to be a kind, loving and mercifull god, then why would he cast people into Hell for the way he made them?
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.
Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.
That's the excuse religious people use so they can discriminate against homosexuals guilt free. They call it a choice and consider it a sin.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.
I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.
So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
Personally, I've always considered myself to be bisexual. I've dated both men and women. However, I now live a heterosexual lifestyle. I'm married (in fact today is my anniversary), and have a son. My husband and I have experimented with other women sexually and there was a brief time where we together had a relationship with a woman who has been a close personal friend of mine for years, also bisexual. It didn't work out because when you include a third person into an already established relationship and feelings get involved it becomes complicated and unfair. No matter how hard you try to make it an equal relationship one person ends up becoming more of a 3rd wheel. But there was no hard feelings involved. She is still a great friend and is now married with a child. We stopped our sexual escapades with other women when I became pregnant with my son. Weather or not that's permanent or temporary I don't know at this point. I think we just don't have the time and energy to put into it right now and would rather not explain it to our child until he's a little older.
I don't know what the cause is. I know I didn't choose to be this way. If it's nature or nuture I don't know, but I do know I'm not the only one in my family. My sister admitted to me a few years ago that she too is bisexual and engages in sex with other women together with her boyfriend. My father always spoke of two of his cousins (brother's) who are both gay, these cousins are closer to my father's age and I've never had the pleasure of meeting them. Two of my other cousins, also on my father's side are gay (also brothers) and one of them recently got married, in Boston. I also have a cousin on my mother's side who is in her 60s who spent much of her life living a lie in a heterosexual relationship which was a complete disaster, she is now in committed relationship with her partner.
Needless to say, I don't really care what homosexuals do. No one is being harmed. I don't understand how anyone would feel that they have the authority to tell anyone how they should live their lives or who they should be allowed to marry.
Quote from: MathKat on October 06, 2011, 11:06:46 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.
Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.
That's the excuse religious people use so they can discriminate against homosexuals guilt free. They call it a choice and consider it a sin.
I hope I got the quote attributions right. I don't think it can be called an excuse if they honestly do believe that, and doesn't it complicate the issue just a little that actions
are choices? I've always been uncomfortable with the "gay party" position that there's no element of choice involved in sexuality at all when there clearly is, since everyone chooses the behavior they engage in whether it's homo-, hetero-, bi-, S&M role-playing or whatever. I think we'd be arguing from a much stronger position if we said that, altho the feelings aren't a choice, the actions are and so what? We have the same right to make those choices as any other citizen.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 03:58:21 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 06, 2011, 11:06:46 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 11:05:32 AM
I've asked this in the past. The answer I got was that though God loves you..YOU choose the actions YOU commit.
Now I ain't saying I follow that. But that's the answer I get.
That's the excuse religious people use so they can discriminate against homosexuals guilt free. They call it a choice and consider it a sin.
I hope I got the quote attributions right. I don't think it can be called an excuse if they honestly do believe that, and doesn't it complicate the issue just a little that actions are choices? I've always been uncomfortable with the "gay party" position that there's no element of choice involved in sexuality at all when there clearly is, since everyone chooses the behavior they engage in whether it's homo-, hetero-, bi-, S&M role-playing or whatever. I think we'd be arguing from a much stronger position if we said that, altho the feelings aren't a choice, the actions are and so what? We have the same right to make those choices as any other citizen.
You have it right. The lifestyle you choose
is a choice. But
being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.
I have a cousin who is obviously homosexual. According to my mom everyone pretty much knew it to begin with. But she
chose to deny it. She got married, had a child and lived that way because she thought she was supposed to. It wasn't a happy existence for anyone involved. When it was over she came out, found her partner and now she's happy.
My situation is a little different. I've been called selfish by straight and homosexuals alike. I can understand because I chose to go back and forth, I didn't have to do that. Some bisexuals lean more toward one sex or the other. That's not me. I've always felt an equal attraction to both sexes, I can remember feeling that way as early as age 9. But I've always tried to be fair and honest about it. I've never tried to hurt anyone. My husband excepts me for who I am and enjoys the lifestyle with me.
My arguement is if you can't choose the way you feel, why should you have to choose a lifestyle that doesn't fit or settle for less because others have a problem with it?
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:52:47 AM
The lifestyle you choose is a choice. But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.
No question about that, but I don't think the feelings are what the 'phobes get their drawers in a twist about and base their anti-gay arguments on, or at least it's not the main thing. The behavior is what makes them foam at the mouth and it seems to me when we refuse to acknowledge that they're right about the behavior being a choice we're just muddying the water and misdirecting the argument.
QuoteI have a cousin who is obviously homosexual. According to my mom everyone pretty much knew it to begin with. But she chose to deny it. She got married, had a child and lived that way because she thought she was supposed to. It wasn't a happy existence for anyone involved. When it was over she came out, found her partner and now she's happy.
I have an aunt who tried the same thing, tho in her case the marriage lasted less than a year before it became completely unbearable for everyone and she had to give it up. That was followed by a 30-year relationship with another woman which, tho it ended too, was much better and I dare say healthier for her. So no question on my part that people should live according to their nature and not according to someone's dogma.
QuoteMy situation is a little different. I've been called selfish by straight and homosexuals alike. I can understand because I chose to go back and forth, I didn't have to do that. Some bisexuals lean more toward one sex or the other. That's not me. I've always felt an equal attraction to both sexes, I can remember feeling that way as early as age 9. But I've always tried to be fair and honest about it. I've never tried to hurt anyone. My husband excepts me for who I am and enjoys the lifestyle with me.
Totally understand what it's like to be called selfish, and told to "just choose a side!", by both straights and gays. But as far as I'm concerned, there is no "side" to this and no reason to create a self-imposed sexual barrier. That seems to me every bit as unnatural, assinine and presumptuous as insisting on mandatory heterosexuality. Personally, I generally prefer other women and I only get romantic about women but I consider men a lot of fun, esp. when they're naked, and all other things being equal I enjoy indulging in sex with men occasionally. It makes for a great bit of variety. It can still surprise me when some gays insist there's no such thing as bisexuality and and trot out what is essentially a requirement for mandatory exclusive homosexuality for anybody who's even had a homoerotic dream.
QuoteMy arguement is if you can't choose the way you feel, why should you have to choose a lifestyle that doesn't fit or settle for less because others have a problem with it?
You shouldn't, no one should no matter what the lifestyle choice is (obviously assuming that these lifestyles don't involve violation of consent), I just don't think it moves things forward to deny there's any choice involved at all. I choose what I do with my life the same as, for instance, a Promise Keeper or surrendered wife does and I have the same right to my choices that they do. Let's get that straight with the 'phobes and move on.
Being forced to behave against one's personal choice is a very difficult place for anybody to be. My wife knows a gay Pakistani Muslim man who was forced into a marriage by his mother. It lasted about 4 months. The break-up was spectacularly bad with the wife accusing the mother of lying to her and also accusing her gay husband of rape (how does that work?). As a result the gay man and his family have had to move from Bradford after receiving death threats.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 06:11:49 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:52:47 AM
The lifestyle you choose is a choice. But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.
No question about that, but I don't think the feelings are what the 'phobes get their drawers in a twist about and base their anti-gay arguments on, or at least it's not the main thing. The behavior is what makes them foam at the mouth and it seems to me when we refuse to acknowledge that they're right about the behavior being a choice we're just muddying the water and misdirecting the argument.
I'm not sure about this. I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice. I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now." But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates. As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship. They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back".
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 07, 2011, 06:11:49 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:52:47 AM
The lifestyle you choose is a choice. But being straight, bi, or homosexual is not.
No question about that, but I don't think the feelings are what the 'phobes get their drawers in a twist about and base their anti-gay arguments on, or at least it's not the main thing. The behavior is what makes them foam at the mouth and it seems to me when we refuse to acknowledge that they're right about the behavior being a choice we're just muddying the water and misdirecting the argument.
I'm not sure about this. I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice. I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now." But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates. As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship. They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back".
Oh I don't believe there's only one thing that bothers the 'phobes (I don't believe there's "one thing" about anything -- I'm not a one size fits all type) about homosexuality, it's just that those I've talked to and read tend to focus on behavior, which makes sense since that's the thing about it that's most obvious. I've even read articles by honest "ex-gays" who admit that they'll never not be homosexual, they just believe they've been given the tools necessary to suppress the behavior and, if possible, engage in heterosexual behavior. How long that lasts is anybody's guess.
Also, I've had 2 (not a representative sample, I know) rabidly homophobic types tell me flat out that they don't give a damn what homosexuals feel, they just want us never to act on it. Which, really, is fine by me, because I don't care how they feel either as long as they don't try to do anything legal to interfere with my life, or anyone elses life. Then we'll have a problem.
I just want to say, it's your choice.
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
I'm not sure about this. I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice. I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now." But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates. As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship. They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back".
But whether it is by choice or not this isn't really a valid tack with regards to debate. So what if it were a choice?
Christian's believe that people have free will.
It makes no difference really, should non Christians choose to live their lives in a way that makes some Christians around them more comfortable? You need to live life for yourself, not to please others, especially not to please people that you don't have a personal relationship with.
Homosexuality is not a choice, it is how you were born. Personally I have no problem with homosexuality as it is simply two people falling in love.
Quote from: corgilover on January 10, 2012, 08:48:24 PM
Homosexuality is not a choice, it is how you were born. Personally I have no problem with homosexuality as it is simply two people falling in love.
I find it difficult to agree that EVERY SINGLE homosexual was born homosexual. I can certainly agree that the vast majority are born that way...maybe even 99.9999~%, but every single one? There is no one person that has chosen? I hope that thought isn't offensive. I'm just thinking.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 09:00:24 PM
Quote from: corgilover on January 10, 2012, 08:48:24 PM
Homosexuality is not a choice, it is how you were born. Personally I have no problem with homosexuality as it is simply two people falling in love.
I find it difficult to agree that EVERY SINGLE homosexual was born homosexual. I can certainly agree that the vast majority are born that way...maybe even 99.9999~%, but every single one? There is no one person that has chosen? I hope that thought isn't offensive. I'm just thinking.
While I respect your opinion, I must point something out. Why would anyone choose to be a member of a group who is repeatedly discriminated against?
Quote from: corgilover on January 10, 2012, 09:50:32 PM
While I respect your opinion, I must point something out. Why would anyone choose to be a member of a group who is repeatedly discriminated against?
I'm not sure. Does every person do what they choose to do because the "danger" is low or non-existent? Sometimes peers are accepting of a certain action(s) whereas society is not.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 09:00:24 PM
Quote from: corgilover on January 10, 2012, 08:48:24 PM
Homosexuality is not a choice, it is how you were born. Personally I have no problem with homosexuality as it is simply two people falling in love.
I find it difficult to agree that EVERY SINGLE homosexual was born homosexual. I can certainly agree that the vast majority are born that way...maybe even 99.9999~%, but every single one? There is no one person that has chosen? I hope that thought isn't offensive. I'm just thinking.
If someone is able to choose one way or the other, than I would argue that they're bi.
Quote from: Stevil on October 08, 2011, 09:29:40 AM
Quote from: MathKat on October 07, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
I'm not sure about this. I think they have a problem with both the behavior and the feelings, and in debates that I've had with Christians over this, I have been told repeatedly that homo and bisexuality is a choice. I'm not sure how they rationalize that someone would wake up one morning and just decide "Hey, I'm gay now." But this is the impression I've gotten from past debates. As far as they're concerned you can choose not to be gay and therefore be perfectly happy in a heterosexual relationship. They even have gay correction camps that are supposed to "turn people back".
But whether it is by choice or not this isn't really a valid tack with regards to debate. So what if it were a choice?
Christian's believe that people have free will.
It makes no difference really, should non Christians choose to live their lives in a way that makes some Christians around them more comfortable? You need to live life for yourself, not to please others, especially not to please people that you don't have a personal relationship with.
I agree. I don't believe it's a choice, but even it is were - so what? Christians don't get to dictate what other people's "choices" should be. I actually think it's a little insulting when people try to argue that homosexuality should be acceptable because it's not a choice. Like "Oh, don't blame them, they can't help themselves, the poor dears." Whether or not it's a choice is clouding the issue. It shouldn't be acceptable because they "can't help themselves", it should be acceptable because it's none of anyone else's damn business. Consenting adults get to be big boys and girls and sleep with/have a relationship/marry pretty much whoever they want. I didn't like my brother's last girlfriend (the one before my sister in law) but it's not like I was petitioning to the government to break them up. Adults get to choose who they spend their time with. End of story.
Quote from: Traveler on January 10, 2012, 10:20:27 PM
If someone is able to choose one way or the other, than I would argue that they're bi.
You make a very good point.
Quote from: Crow on January 10, 2012, 11:15:05 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 10, 2012, 10:20:27 PM
If someone is able to choose one way or the other, than I would argue that they're bi.
You make a very good point.
A continuous choice, yes. But what about the one-time choice?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 11:21:47 PM
Quote from: Crow on January 10, 2012, 11:15:05 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 10, 2012, 10:20:27 PM
If someone is able to choose one way or the other, than I would argue that they're bi.
You make a very good point.
A continuous choice, yes. But what about the one-time choice?
They must have some sort of bisexual (or twilight if you like the film L.A Confidential) leanings to actually go through with the act, though that one time might make them realise that the curiosity was nothing more than visual attraction.
Quote from: Crow on January 10, 2012, 11:29:04 PM
They must have some sort of bisexual (or twilight if you like the film L.A Confidential) leanings to actually go through with the act, though that one time might make them realise that the curiosity was nothing more than visual attraction.
I meant the one-time choice towards homosexuality not a one-time "fling" in college...or whatever.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 11:32:27 PM
Quote from: Crow on January 10, 2012, 11:29:04 PM
They must have some sort of bisexual (or twilight if you like the film L.A Confidential) leanings to actually go through with the act, though that one time might make them realise that the curiosity was nothing more than visual attraction.
I meant the one-time choice towards homosexuality not a one-time "fling" in college...or whatever.
I doubt it would be a choice in the general sense and are most likely homosexual. There is so much stigma that surrounds the issue they probably want to wait and make sure that they actually are attracted to the same sex before engaging and being thrown into the pigeon hole.
Quote from: Crow on January 10, 2012, 11:29:04 PM
They must have some sort of bisexual (or twilight if you like the film L.A Confidential) leanings to actually go through with the act, though that one time might make them realise that the curiosity was nothing more than visual attraction.
Would the Kinsey scale be useful here?
Rating Description
0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual (bisexual)
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual
X Asexual
Kinsey thought that most heterosexuals had some occasional homosexual urges, even if they didn't act on them, just as most homosexuals had occasional heterosexual urges. (I've always found it interesting that it's only the 3 category he designates as bisexual)
In this case a person could be said to chose to act on a sexual whim but still wouldn't be choosing the sexual feeling -- that would be innate, if unusual for that person. What I don't understand is the belief I've sometimes heard from fundies that people chose to act out homosexually without any homosexual feelings or desires. I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of doing something I didn't need to do
and didn't have any desire to do without there being a gun to my head. What on earth is the point?
I think there should also be a distinction between sexual attraction and romantic attraction.
I know a guy who identified as sexually attracted to men, but romantically attracted to women.
I think human sexuality is far too complicated to wrap up with a neat little bow and a lot of how we perceive of the definitions that we use are culturally/historically relative. Our definition of homosexuality, as it exists today, didn't even exist a couple of hundred years ago. There have always been men who had sex with men and women who had sex with women, but could we really say they were "gay" if they didn't conceptualize of their sexuality that way? I think we have to admit that part of our modern sexuality has a social component that feeds into that identity.
I'd like to post more on this, but it's past my bedtime and I am sleepy at present. *yawn* I'll elaborate tomorrow if need be.
I have bumped this thread about homosexuality in science forum http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7711.0
This chart may throw some light on the nature/nurture/born/choice debate
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg88.imageshack.us%2Fimg88%2F266%2Forientationy.jpg&hash=373a7e996de6836918173e3086d6ac1a71772bda)
Quote from: corgilover on January 10, 2012, 09:50:32 PM
While I respect your opinion, I must point something out. Why would anyone choose to be a member of a group who is repeatedly discriminated against?
I have a friend who is Bi and she swore off men after yet another jerk used her then left. But I would think that someone would have to be bi in order to choose....which would still make it a biological condition rather than pure choice.
Yeah, there we go, Tank! I thought we'd talked about this somewhat recently somewhere :)
Who care whether it is genetic or not?
I think it is incredibly open minded for a person to have sex with the same gender if they aren't genetically predisposed for it. I think it is great that they are that open minded. I must admit that I am not that open minded and I feel a bit guilty that I am not. I completely agree that there is nothing wrong with people being homosexual, absolutely nothing wrong with it.
The more society gets desensitised to it via TV, via movies, via having gay friends, via seeing gay people hold hands in public, kiss in public, the better for an open minded society. There was probably once a time where people were repulsed to see people from different races kissing.
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 06:25:08 PM
Who care whether it is genetic or not?
I think it is incredibly open minded for a person to have sex with the same gender if they aren't genetically predisposed for it. I think it is great that they are that open minded. I must admit that I am not that open minded and I feel a bit guilty that I am not. I completely agree that there is nothing wrong with people being homosexual, absolutely nothing wrong with it.
The more society gets desensitised to it via TV, via movies, via having gay friends, via seeing gay people hold hands in public, kiss in public, the better for an open minded society. There was probably once a time where people were repulsed to see people from different races kissing.
+1
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 11, 2012, 04:45:21 AM
I think human sexuality is far too complicated to wrap up with a neat little bow and a lot of how we perceive of the definitions that we use are culturally/historically relative. Our definition of homosexuality, as it exists today, didn't even exist a couple of hundred years ago. There have always been men who had sex with men and women who had sex with women, but could we really say they were "gay" if they didn't conceptualize of their sexuality that way? I think we have to admit that part of our modern sexuality has a social component that feeds into that identity.
Totally agree with this, not only does it apply to sexuality but to gender and race as well. If society stopped looking at what people are suppose to be and what people are they would quite blatantly see that people are far more diverse than the little holes we like to force them into.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.
I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.
So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I think the Homosexual militant agenda of trying to get everyone to admit that it is a permissable lifestyle , is very wrong to do plus it actually backfires on Homosexuals (whether of the militant variety or not) . Like normal sexuality, it should be kept to oneself with some degree of sacredness .. and not flaunted to create dissension among the populace . In fact, it is a tacit admission that homosexuality is wrong by Homosexuals demanding everyone be tolerant to the lifestyle, as, we dont ask people to be tolerant of things which are moral and correct --- only of things which are deviant and immoral . Lastly, we can see that this deviant lifestyle is a very dangerous one to the Participants when we examine the very real STD epidemic that has taken the lives of countless thousands of Homosexuals, prematurely, in a very painful and degrading manner . Yes the consequences of sexual hedonism is the same for heterosexuals, but that doesnt nullify the extreme danger of the Homosexual lifestyle . Finally..and perhaps MOST important....is the disdain I find in Homosexual Groups going into our gradeschools on up, to encourage the very naive and impressionable in society toward a lifestyle wrought with regret and danger. The answer is to please keep it behind closed doors , dont vocalize it , dont cram it down our throats with televised gay parades , stop calling people 'Bigots' because they dont agree with sexual perversion, to which I thank you for in advance.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.
I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.
So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I think the Homosexual militant agenda of trying to get everyone to admit that it is a permissable lifestyle , is very wrong to do plus it actually backfires on Homosexuals (whether of the militant variety or not) . Like normal sexuality, it should be kept to oneself with some degree of sacredness .. and not flaunted to create dissension among the populace . In fact, it is a tacit admission that homosexuality is wrong by Homosexuals demanding everyone be tolerant to the lifestyle, as, we dont ask people to be tolerant of things which are moral and correct --- only of things which are deviant and immoral . Lastly, we can see that this deviant lifestyle is a very dangerous one to the Participants when we examine the very real STD epidemic that has taken the lives of countless thousands of Homosexuals, prematurely, in a very painful and degrading manner . Yes the consequences of sexual hedonism is the same for heterosexuals, but that doesnt nullify the extreme danger of the Homosexual lifestyle . Finally..and perhaps MOST important....is the disdain I find in Homosexual Groups going into our gradeschools on up, to encourage the very naive and impressionable in society toward a lifestyle wrought with regret and danger. The answer is to please keep it behind closed doors , dont vocalize it , dont cram it down our throats with televised gay parades , stop calling people 'Bigots' because they dont agree with sexual perversion, to which I thank you for in advance.
Quoted so I have a copy.
EDIT: I have suspended Struggling Atheists account for 1 day to prevent revisionism and to allow the staff to discuss extending the suspension or making it a permaban.
Wow, I guess Whitney was right. I guess there *are* atheists that oppose homosexuality....unless....you don't think.....maybe struggling atheist isn't...an atheist? No! Say it ain't so!
If you would like to express an opinion about Struggling Atheists long term membership of the forum please drop me a PM and I will add it to the staff discussion.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PMI think the Homosexual militant agenda of trying to get everyone to admit that it is a permissable lifestyle , is very wrong to do plus it actually backfires on Homosexuals (whether of the militant variety or not) . Like normal sexuality, it should be kept to oneself with some degree of sacredness .. and not flaunted to create dissension among the populace .
I am so far unaware of these public gay orgies. As far as I know, most people keep their sex lives to themselves.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistIn fact, it is a tacit admission that homosexuality is wrong by Homosexuals demanding everyone be tolerant to the lifestyle, as, we dont ask people to be tolerant of things which are moral and correct --- only of things which are deviant and immoral .
Just like poeple didn't have to be tolerant of women's suffrage? Just like people didn't have to ask that people be tolerant of equal rights for all races? Just like people didn't have to ask that people be tolerant of mixed race marriages? Please do tell how any of those things are immoral, beause there was a huge fight for people to not only be tolerant of them, but to allow other people to do them.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistLastly, we can see that this deviant lifestyle is a very dangerous one to the Participants when we examine the very real STD epidemic that has taken the lives of countless thousands of Homosexuals, prematurely, in a very painful and degrading manner . Yes the consequences of sexual hedonism is the same for heterosexuals, but that doesnt nullify the extreme danger of the Homosexual lifestyle .
STD's are a problem for all people having sex. You state that the consequences are the same for all people having sex, but you focus on one group? This is a very good example of confirmation bias.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistFinally..and perhaps MOST important....is the disdain I find in Homosexual Groups going into our gradeschools on up, to encourage the very naive and impressionable in society toward a lifestyle wrought with regret and danger. The answer is to please keep it behind closed doors , dont vocalize it , dont cram it down our throats with televised gay parades , stop calling people 'Bigots' because they dont agree with sexual perversion, to which I thank you for in advance.
No one is encouraging children to be gay, they're merely trying to make it more comfortable for people to be themselves. It seems by these last few sentences that you personally have many issues around it, I encourage you to relax and let other people who are not unreasonabely affecting you, do things that don't affect you.
Also: is that you, Ex Atheist?
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 04:27:45 PM
Wow, I guess Whitney was right. I guess there *are* atheists that oppose homosexuality....unless....you don't think.....maybe struggling atheist isn't...an atheist? No! Say it ain't so!
I don't think SA is an atheist nor that he ever was...I think he's a liar for Jesus who is using the word "atheist" in place of "backsliding" (a term some Christians use to define a person who has strayed from the herd); there are those who do that even though it breaks a commandment.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Like normal sexuality, it should be kept to oneself with some degree of sacredness .. and not flaunted to create dissension among the populace .
Sexuality is part of nature and a part of most people's lives. A person does not have to hide parts of their lives for fear that others may find them unacceptable. The more open people are, the more accepting society will become eventually. Their is a social stigma about homosexuallity but that is likely because so many people have hidden that from society. We all need to become desensitised to it.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
In fact, it is a tacit admission that homosexuality is wrong by Homosexuals demanding everyone be tolerant to the lifestyle, as, we dont ask people to be tolerant of things which are moral and correct
In my opinion there is no such thing as moral and correct. At best you can only have a personal opinion on what is moral and correct. This subjective morality is best described as your own personal values. It is absurd to judge others based on your own personal values. You are aiming at different goal posts.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Lastly, we can see that this deviant lifestyle is a very dangerous one to the Participants when we examine the very real STD epidemic that has taken the lives of countless thousands of Homosexuals, prematurely, in a very painful and degrading manner .
If only STD's were restricted to deviant lifestyles only, that way people belonging to the non deviant lifestyle group could be free of them. But alas there is no such "cosmic justice". STD's seem to be amoral.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Yes the consequences of sexual hedonism is the same for heterosexuals, but that doesnt nullify the extreme danger of the Homosexual lifestyle.
Please elaborate on this?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Finally..and perhaps MOST important....is the disdain I find in Homosexual Groups going into our gradeschools on up, to encourage the very naive and impressionable in society toward a lifestyle wrought with regret and danger.
Huh? Children ought to be encouraged to be themselves, not to hide themselves away from society, not to have internal struggles with themselves and to deny their own sexuality. If a child is gay, this child ought to be encouraged that being gay is A OK :D
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
The answer is to please keep it behind closed doors.
OhCheese, this is a very open forum. Please feel free to talk about any aspect of your life. You will find the vast majority here support you in being you.
Quote from: Whitney on January 13, 2012, 06:05:13 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 04:27:45 PM
Wow, I guess Whitney was right. I guess there *are* atheists that oppose homosexuality....unless....you don't think.....maybe struggling atheist isn't...an atheist? No! Say it ain't so!
I don't think SA is an atheist nor that he ever was...I think he's a liar for Jesus who is using the word "atheist" in place of "backsliding" (a term some Christians use to define a person who has strayed from the herd); there are those who do that even though it breaks a commandment.
yep, I get the distinct impression SA is a struggling atheist because actually they're a Christian, and a rather bigoted Christian at that. Calling homosexuals 'deviants' and 'perverts' is inflammatory and offensive, and it's a really nasty distasteful post.
I think struggling atheist is showing his true colors in a much more blatant and offensive way. This one is a troll of the worst possible sort, and although I'm rarely in favor of bans, this guy's on his way in my eyes. This latest post is offensive, intolerant, and a huge red flag about his honesty here about who he is.
Gawd, that was ghastly.
Quote from: Tank on January 13, 2012, 04:00:25 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.
I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.
So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
I think the Homosexual militant agenda of trying to get everyone to admit that it is a permissable lifestyle , is very wrong to do plus it actually backfires on Homosexuals (whether of the militant variety or not) . Like normal sexuality, it should be kept to oneself with some degree of sacredness .. and not flaunted to create dissension among the populace . In fact, it is a tacit admission that homosexuality is wrong by Homosexuals demanding everyone be tolerant to the lifestyle, as, we dont ask people to be tolerant of things which are moral and correct --- only of things which are deviant and immoral . Lastly, we can see that this deviant lifestyle is a very dangerous one to the Participants when we examine the very real STD epidemic that has taken the lives of countless thousands of Homosexuals, prematurely, in a very painful and degrading manner . Yes the consequences of sexual hedonism is the same for heterosexuals, but that doesnt nullify the extreme danger of the Homosexual lifestyle . Finally..and perhaps MOST important....is the disdain I find in Homosexual Groups going into our gradeschools on up, to encourage the very naive and impressionable in society toward a lifestyle wrought with regret and danger. The answer is to please keep it behind closed doors , dont vocalize it , dont cram it down our throats with televised gay parades , stop calling people 'Bigots' because they dont agree with sexual perversion, to which I thank you for in advance.
Quoted so I have a copy.
EDIT: I have suspended Struggling Atheists account for 1 day to prevent revisionism and to allow the staff to discuss extending the suspension or making it a permaban.
The OP freely asked for peoples views and opinions on homosexuality ; was I required to be tolerant of every view in this Forum, even if i disagree with it ? I gave honest answers to the OP questions and without personal defamation toward the OP . Further, it is NOT a case of me being 'homophobic' because 3 days ago at the Walmart checkout register , i was standing next to two obvious homosexual men and I didnt feel an ounce of fear toward them, didnt fear acquiring homosexuality from them, nor feared being in their presence. Thank you.
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PM
Further, it is NOT a case of me being 'homophobic' because 3 days ago at the Walmart checkout register , i was standing next to two obvious homosexual men and I didnt feel an ounce of fear toward them, didnt fear acquiring homosexuality from them, nor feared being in their presence. Thank you.
1. Who cares?
2. What's an obvious homosexual? As opposed to an obvious bisexual or just ye old garden variety experimenting emo-kid?
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Ugh, wow. Why would anyone give a shit about someone's sexual prefernce? Seriously. I cannot believe this is an issue for any human being.
"two obvious homosexual men" huh?
I am sadly on a forum with an obvious dickhole. Not naming names.
I don't think struggling atheist is atheist at all. I wil ask you SA: Are you in fact atheist? Or just a confused christian?
Quote from: Asmodean on January 14, 2012, 04:30:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PM
Further, it is NOT a case of me being 'homophobic' because 3 days ago at the Walmart checkout register , i was standing next to two obvious homosexual men and I didnt feel an ounce of fear toward them, didnt fear acquiring homosexuality from them, nor feared being in their presence. Thank you.
1. Who cares?
2. What's an obvious homosexual? As opposed to an obvious bisexual or just ye old garden variety experimenting emo-kid?
1. I care and so do most U.S. Citizens according to polls . How come youre apathetic ( I mean, 'tolerant') ?
2. Its often noticable from the way a person dresses, applys their makeup, how they talk, thier posture, and if they have a hand on anothers butt. What else would a casual Observer conclude ?
It's there
It's always there
I don't think anything about Homosexuality
I think of what moves those that disaprove.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
No, I already read that part. That's the part where you say that it is wrong and a perversion, and ask that if people have to do it, that they keep it a secret. The only part where you actually explain any sort of thought process behind why it might be wrong is the part where you talk about STDs, which as even you acknowledge are also rampant in the hetero community, so that's not much of an argument. So, now that we've established that you think it is a "perversion" and you think it should be kept a secret, can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:40:30 PM
1. I care and so do most U.S. Citizens according to polls . How come youre apathetic ( I mean, 'tolerant') ?
I don't care about people I'm not personally acquainted with unless they directly or otherwise affect my well-being in a significant enough way.
What they stick in each others holes is no more my business than the color of their mailbox.
Quote
2. Its often noticable from the way a person dresses, applys their makeup, how they talk, thier posture, and if they have a hand on anothers butt. What else would a casual Observer conclude ?
Why would a casual observer care enough to conclude anything beyond "Two guys wearing makeup with their hands up each other's asses are in front of me in the queue. MOVE, dammit!"?
Do you live in a CAVE, struggling A? Because las time I checked, not all homosexual men wear make or have anal sex.
Not all homosexuals have anal sex. That is a gross misconception. Although no one wants to bring up the straight males that love to fuck their girlfriends in the ass. or male drag queens whom over half of are heterosexual, even married to great women.
Stop living in a rock. Society says this is normal, that is okay, but in truth this has always existed. Diversity of human beings has always been there!
Your lack of acceptance (Yes acceptance, not TOLERANCE) shows how truly sheltered you are!!
Oh, for the record, I never claimed to be tolerant - and in many areas of life, I am not. However, when I refuse to tolerate something, I remove myself from its path as opposed to demanding that it remove itself from mine.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 13, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
I think the Homosexual militant agenda of trying to get everyone to admit that it is a permissable lifestyle , is very wrong to do plus it actually backfires on Homosexuals (whether of the militant variety or not) .
It is not just a "homosexual" agenda. There are plenty of people, just like me, who live in "conventional" arrangements (I'm married to a man and have a child) who want to fight to see LGBT discrimination ended. Organizations like PFLAG (http://community.pflag.org/Page.aspx?pid=194&srcid=-2) are a good example of this.
Actually, I'm probably more "militant" about this kind of thing than my gay best friend. I can be quite political about it and he has no interest, he just wants to be left alone.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistLike normal sexuality
There is no such thing as "normal" sexuality.
Quote from: Struggling Athesitit should be kept to oneself with some degree of sacredness .. and not flaunted to create dissension among the populace.
Why? What's wrong with sex? I think if we had open conversations about sex and sexuality, the whole world would be a better place.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistIn fact, it is a tacit admission that homosexuality is wrong by Homosexuals demanding everyone be tolerant to the lifestyle, as, we dont ask people to be tolerant of things which are moral and correct --- only of things which are deviant and immoral.
It has absolutely nothing to do with morality, we have to ask people to be tolerant of things that are
uncommon or against the norm. The status quo =/= morally superior or even moral at all. I think sex is completely morally neutral.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistLastly, we can see that this deviant lifestyle is a very dangerous one to the Participants when we examine the very real STD epidemic that has taken the lives of countless thousands of Homosexuals, prematurely, in a very painful and degrading manner . Yes the consequences of sexual hedonism is the same for heterosexuals, but that doesnt nullify the extreme danger of the Homosexual lifestyle
WTF? Driving is the most "dangerous lifestyle" you can lead (and it is a lifestyle choice, just ask the Amish). Do you know how many graphic, terrible, violent deaths are caused by cars? If we had any sense at all, we'd give up our automobiles. We don't. Does that make us immoral? Any level of "dangerousness" has nothing, again, to do with morality.
I'd also like to see where you got your stats regarding the numbers of these cases, because most "Anti-Gay" sources that I've come across greatly inflate the occurrence of STI causes in the gay community. Links plese.
Quote from: Struggling AtheistFinally..and perhaps MOST important....is the disdain I find in Homosexual Groups going into our gradeschools on up, to encourage the very naive and impressionable in society toward a lifestyle wrought with regret and danger. The answer is to please keep it behind closed doors , dont vocalize it , dont cram it down our throats with televised gay parades , stop calling people 'Bigots' because they dont agree with sexual perversion, to which I thank you for in advance.
Do you actually know any gay people? I do, I know plenty and not one of them lives with "regret and danger". Or, at least, no more so than the rest of society.
Well said DJ.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 14, 2012, 05:08:34 PM
Do you actually know any gay people? I do, I know plenty and not one of them lives with "regret and danger". Or, at least, no more so than the rest of society.
Heh... Lonely, sexually frustrated heterosexuals are probably more prone to "regret and danger" than homosexuals. In my experience, at least, that is the case.
So what moves those who disaprove?
How does, what other people do in the bedroom, impact you?
If it is about how homosexual's dress, walk and talk in public then do you think the government ought to put in place laws to support Struggling Atheist's etiquette of public dress, walking and talking?
Those that are caught infringing get sent to a 6 month finishing school boot camp to be taught the Struggling Atheist's standard of behavior in public.
Quote from: Stevil on January 14, 2012, 05:45:00 PM
How does, what other people do in the bedroom, impact you?
If it is about how homosexual's dress, walk and talk in public then do you think the government ought to put in place laws to support Struggling Atheist's etiquette of public dress, walking and talking?
Those that are caught infringing get sent to a 6 month finishing school boot camp to be taught the Struggling Atheist's standard of behavior in public.
LOL
But... But I don't want to be a sexually pent up christian who only does it missionary position!! :(
I don't think all Christians are sexually pent up. The Duggars must do it like bunnies if their progeny are any indication.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PMThe OP freely asked for peoples views and opinions on homosexuality ; was I required to be tolerant of every view in this Forum, even if i disagree with it ?
You are not
required to be anything,
Struggling Atheist,
* and as far as I'm concerned your honesty in regard to this topic is a good thing. However, I think it would be rather naive to think that you could express your negative opinions about a group of people who have suffered oppressive discrimination and outright persecution for centuries, without getting feedback of equal honesty from those who strongly disagree with such an attitude.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PMI gave honest answers to the OP questions and without personal defamation toward the OP . Further, it is NOT a case of me being 'homophobic' because 3 days ago at the Walmart checkout register , i was standing next to two obvious homosexual men and I didnt feel an ounce of fear toward them, didnt fear acquiring homosexuality from them, nor feared being in their presence. Thank you.
Well, you might benefit from learning the proper definition of "homophobia" then.
QuoteFrom Anti-Defamation League (http://www.adl.org/hate-patrol/homophobia.asp):
Homophobia is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility. Homophobia is not confined to any one segment of society, and can be found in people from all walks of life. Organized hate groups have viciously attacked homosexuals and have used especially violent language in attempting to persecute and intimidate them.
Now, I don't know that you actually hate or fear gay people, but your post used language that is commonly used by homophobes. Those who read that post might be excused for drawing their own conclusions.
_________________
* You can say whatever you like, as long as you observe the Forum Rules (http://forum%20rules); see
Whitney's post below.
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on January 14, 2012, 06:31:18 PM
I'm fairly sure Minneapolis was named the gayest U.S. city in 2011 . . .
Yes it was, and I understand San Francisco is very put out.
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on January 14, 2012, 06:31:18 PMhttp://www.citypages.com/2011-12-28/news/gay-community-apologizes-to-amy-koch/ (http://www.citypages.com/2011-12-28/news/gay-community-apologizes-to-amy-koch/)
;D
Now that's one of the funniest things I've read since Jon Carroll's Unitarian Jihad (http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-04-08/entertainment/17367067_1_god-unitarian-jihad-serenity)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 14, 2012, 04:58:42 PM
Not all homosexuals have anal sex. That is a gross misconception. Although no one wants to bring up the straight males that love to fuck their girlfriends in the ass. or male drag queens whom over half of are heterosexual, even married to great women.
Not to mention the straight men who like getting anal sex from a woman with a handy strap-on.
(Edited to fix quotes. -- Recusant)
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Your post in 105 had absolutely no information on WHY you had those views; it's was just a irrational rant that made lots of baseless claims and honestly crossed the line under our rules here (see the part of the rules about no racism; it covers hate speech). The views you provided are only common to people of a southern christian upbringing...hence the question of how an atheist could hold such views. If you are an atheist and have arrived at those views through a process of logical reasoning then provide the logic (without being an ass about it...it's possible to discuss why you don't approve of homosexuality without using derogatory language).
Speaking of "cramming agendas down peoples' throats" I came across this little gem in my Facebook feed:
California teen calls for girl guide cookie boycott because the organization allowed a 7 year old trans-gendered girl to join a troop. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/teen-calls-for-girl-scout-cookie-boycott-over-transgender-policy/article2299566/)
Gay folk aren't the only ones who want to make individual sexual/gender identity a public issue.
Quote from: Whitney on January 14, 2012, 08:09:17 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Your post in 105 had absolutely no information on WHY you had those views
I'll explain my reasoning for
not objecting to homosexuality, and I'll admit right off the bat that I'm bisexual with a preference for other women, in case anyone wants to factor that in as a bias. Even before I was aware of my sexual leanings however (and I was a very late bloomer) I had no objection to homosexuality and couldn't understand the fuss so many others made about it (this was back in the 60s and 70s, when there was even more fuss than now).
To me, it seemed perfectly natural in the sense that it occured in nature, among animals other than humans. Even back then we had examples of that and there's far more evidence today. It's also interesting to me that homosexual behavior seems to increase with the intelligence of the species. I don't know if anyone has found homosexual behavior among insects and reptiles, but it can be found nearly everywhere among mammals and birds, and is particularly commonplace among dolphins, apes and elephants. Just going by that alone it seems perfectly natural that humans should be among the gayest of the gay.
Which brings me to its normality, which I see as different from its naturalness. To me, natural is a biological designation, and normal is a cultural one. Some "antis" used to mix the two issues by claiming that homosexuality only happened among domesticated animals, and those in zoos, as if that were proof of abnormality tho it seemed to me this only strengthened the normality of human homosexuality, since what are humans but domesticated apes? In any case, the abundance of homosexual behavior found in nature among wild animals has put that argument to rest.
Anyway, while I'm willing to concede that homosexuality is not the norm in American cluture at this time, that doesn't mean that it's abnormal everywhere or at all times or that it's good or right to class it as abnormal. Or that it's good or right to attempt to force people to conceal it. If it were honestly endangering the public health or causing the destruction of society with increased violence or indifference to peoples welfare (that could be traced directly and conclusively to homosexuality) that'd be different. I think there are enough examples now of societies where homosexuals are treated as full citizens without it causing a massive collapse of the public health, or social upheaval, to put that aside.
Unless the social upheaval being feared is the lack of the ability to discriminate against and persecute homosexuals -- I don't know what to say to that. I never considered bigotry a cherished right to be upheld at all costs. And wanting to step on other peoples lives because one doesn't like what they do naked as consensual adults is bigotry, no matter how much one dislikes the idea of being a bigot.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rationalskepticism.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Feusa_clap.gif&hash=17bb7aae9a87f5225de32c8361c9e9bae843b85d) Well said, BooksCatsEtc. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg232.imageshack.us%2Fimg232%2F4958%2Fhail.gif&hash=0284923d6833bba2a7887a4fb12cf41e4b89bff8)
Quote from: Recusant on January 14, 2012, 10:19:42 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rationalskepticism.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Feusa_clap.gif&hash=17bb7aae9a87f5225de32c8361c9e9bae843b85d) Well said, BooksCatsEtc. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg232.imageshack.us%2Fimg232%2F4958%2Fhail.gif&hash=0284923d6833bba2a7887a4fb12cf41e4b89bff8)
Oh, thank goodness! I was afraid I'd screwed up the quotes again. Thank you, Recusant.
I quite enjoyed that read, bookscats. ^__^
My gf is bisexual as well with a preference for women. She once told me "if everyone just accepted they were bisexual in SOME way, the world would be happier place."
BookCatsEtc, I wish I had an applaud button on here. +1 for a well thought out response.
BookCats, LIKE!!!
Well, that was interesting. Is Struggling Atheist still around, or has he been kicked off at this point? I'm curious if he'll even try responding to these questions, but perhaps we're better off if he's not, as I can't imagine it will be anything more than the ranting that he's already posted here.
Either way, while I assumed most people on this forum were probably socially liberal, it is refreshing to see how you all responded to this. I feel like a lot of the people who are that homophobic never knowingly met a gay person (knowingly because everyone has whether they realize it or not). While I was always supportive of gay rights, I became especially supportive when some people close to me came out.
Quote from: Firebird on January 14, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
Well, that was interesting. Is Struggling Atheist still around, or has he been kicked off at this point? I'm curious if he'll even try responding to these questions, but perhaps we're better off if he's not, as I can't imagine it will be anything more than the ranting that he's already posted here.
Either way, while I assumed most people on this forum were probably socially liberal, it is refreshing to see how you all responded to this. I feel like a lot of the people who are that homophobic never knowingly met a gay person (knowingly because everyone has whether they realize it or not). While I was always supportive of gay rights, I became especially supportive when some people close to me came out.
I say this to people a lot. There are gay people everywhere. I guess most ignorant homophobes think all gays ae flaming fairies'
When I had someone tell "you dont seem gay" I was pretty offended. I was like "well, I left my axe , plaid shirt and chord pants at home" e_e.
So many idiotic stereo types for gay people. People are people. Tom boy girls can be heterosexual too.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 14, 2012, 10:39:25 PM
I quite enjoyed that read, bookscats. ^__^
Quote from: Traveler on January 14, 2012, 11:13:13 PM
BookCatsEtc, I wish I had an applaud button on here. +1 for a well thought out response.
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 11:21:38 PM
BookCats, LIKE!!!
I wish I had a blushing smiley. Thank you all -- just a subject I have a bit of familiarity with.
Quote from: Firebird on January 14, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
Well, that was interesting. Is Struggling Atheist still around, or has he been kicked off at this point? I'm curious if he'll even try responding to these questions
If he is, in fact, an atheist I'd be very curious to hear his reasons for objecting to homosexuality to the point of insisting that we keep ourselves closeted. It is very unusual for atheists to be homophobic; I remember reading an article where the author mentioned that his atheist father hated homosexuals and homosexuality, but he didn't say why either.
I've worked with a couple of gay people whom I never knew were gay until they brought their partners along to corporate functions. Some seem like hetro but then you get some that are flamboyant. I don't know why, but I certainly don't think we should be telling people how to dress, walk and talk.
If we all looked the same, it would be very boring.
Quote from: Stevil on January 15, 2012, 01:35:46 AM
I've worked with a couple of gay people whom I never knew were gay until they brought their partners along to corporate functions. Some seem like hetro but then you get some that are flamboyant. I don't know why, but I certainly don't think we should be telling people how to dress, walk and talk.
If we all looked the same, it would be very boring.
That,,and it's really rude to try to label people without getting to know them.
I am me; and that's just a kinda girly sarcastic person who loves videogames, dc comics, manga, cosplaying, animals,and vietnamese food. On a very broad perspective, my sexuality never comes into play. <3 :)
Quote from: Firebird on January 14, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
Well, that was interesting. Is Struggling Atheist still around, or has he been kicked off at this point?
SA is still a full member at this moment. If, when and how he responds to this thread will definitely have a bearing on that situation.
BCE, that was a cracking post. ;D
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 14, 2012, 04:35:39 PM
Ugh, wow. Why would anyone give a shit about someone's sexual prefernce? Seriously. I cannot believe this is an issue for any human being.
......................
I agree ; I cant understand why ALL people cant keep their sexuality behind closed doors where it belongs instead of parading it around publicly and demanding entire Nations agree to what THEY deem reasonable to do .
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 14, 2012, 04:41:12 PM
.....................
I think of what moves those that disaprove.
Its all spelled out in post number 105. Did you miss that one ?
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Quote from: Recusant on January 14, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PMThe OP freely asked for peoples views and opinions on homosexuality ; was I required to be tolerant of every view in this Forum, even if i disagree with it ?
You are not required to be anything, Struggling Atheist,* and as far as I'm concerned your honesty in regard to this topic is a good thing. However, I think it would be rather naive to think that you could express your negative opinions about a group of people who have suffered oppressive discrimination and outright persecution for centuries, without getting feedback of equal honesty from those who strongly disagree with such an attitude.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PMI gave honest answers to the OP questions and without personal defamation toward the OP . Further, it is NOT a case of me being 'homophobic' because 3 days ago at the Walmart checkout register , i was standing next to two obvious homosexual men and I didnt feel an ounce of fear toward them, didnt fear acquiring homosexuality from them, nor feared being in their presence. Thank you.
Well, you might benefit from learning the proper definition of "homophobia" then.
QuoteFrom Anti-Defamation League (http://www.adl.org/hate-patrol/homophobia.asp):
Homophobia is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility. .......
Thank you for taking the time . Based on your definition of Homophobia/Homophobe above, I do not fit into that category then because I dont hate any person on Earth nor do i have just reason to . I do find great disdain toward actions of many people groups but that doesnt automatically default me to a person of hated or actionable hostility/revenge (as may be the case with some) . The word 'phobia' specifically means : a fear of something...and for me personally, I have no fear of a Homosexual nor contracting a possible disease from this people group.
_____________________________________________________________________
From the online Dictionary :
pho·bi·a
   [foh-bee-uh] Show IPA
noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.
Origin:
1780–90; extracted from nouns ending in -phobia
Synonyms
aversion, hatred
____________________________________________________________________________
While my reply to the OP's direct question of 'What do "I" think of homosexuality' may not be the norm among fellow Heathens in such a Forum as this, it is my personal view which I unashamedly submit and Im glad this Forum can be a venue to express a variety of views when specifically asked without fear of being (future) repromanded for . Thank you.
EDIT: Sorted quotess - Tank
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 14, 2012, 04:35:39 PM
Ugh, wow. Why would anyone give a shit about someone's sexual prefernce? Seriously. I cannot believe this is an issue for any human being.
......................
I agree ; I cant understand why ALL people cant keep their sexuality behind closed doors where it belongs instead of parading it around publicly and demanding entire Nations agree to what THEY deem reasonable to do .
The only thing they are demanding is to be treated like equal human beings. To get married like a human being, to not have to worry about people causing villence agaibst them just because they love the same gender. And that is the ONLY difference between a heterosexual and homosexual, gender preference, but no big, fat ass republicans and bible thumpers only.focus on a single small aspect of them.
So yes, they march for equal rights, the same way african americans and women did (and are still doing!!}
Because unless you're heterosexual, caucasian and MALE; this world is fucking shit.
Wow, you are homophobic, and I hope Whit and Tank see this.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Uh no, see, you still haven't explained
why homosexuality is immoral.
See, here's the deal. I know why theists think that homosexuality is immoral - cause the bible says so. Pretty cut and dried.
What I don't understand is why an atheist (who presumably doesn't feel particularly drawn to believe something just because the bible says so) thinks that homosexuality is immoral. Stop referring us to read post 105, please. We've all read it. Please tell us why, specifically, homosexuality is immoral. Thank you.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 15, 2012, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 14, 2012, 04:35:39 PM
Ugh, wow. Why would anyone give a shit about someone's sexual prefernce? Seriously. I cannot believe this is an issue for any human being.
......................
I agree ; I cant understand why ALL people cant keep their sexuality behind closed doors where it belongs instead of parading it around publicly and demanding entire Nations agree to what THEY deem reasonable to do .
The only thing they are demanding is to be treated like equal human beings. To get married like a human being, to not have to worry about people causing villence agaibst them just because they love the same gender. And that is the ONLY difference between a heterosexual and homosexual, gender preference, but no big, fat ass republicans and bible thumpers only.focus on a single small aspect of them.
So yes, they march for equal rights, the same way african americans and women did (and are still doing!!}
Because unless you're heterosexual, caucasian and MALE; this world is fucking shit.
Wow, you are homophobic, and I hope Whit and Tank see this.
Have no fear SD ALL the staff are keeping a very close eye on the behaviour of SA.
I have no fear. You guys are more reliable than god-- oops xD
Quote from: Stevil on January 15, 2012, 01:35:46 AM
I've worked with a couple of gay people whom I never knew were gay until they brought their partners along to corporate functions. Some seem like hetro but then you get some that are flamboyant. I don't know why, but I certainly don't think we should be telling people how to dress, walk and talk.
If we all looked the same, it would be very boring.
I think it's just that
everyone is different - gay or straight. I've known plenty of straight girls who are more "tomboyish" and plenty of straight guys that are more....eh..."metrosexual" (sorry Sweetdeath, I know you hate that term, but I can't think of an easier way to describe it.) I think we just notice it more when we know that someone is gay because we're kind of looking for it because it conforms to stereotypes, you know?
My Aunt Shalaine is gay, and she was in a 20+ years long relationship with my Aunt Chris (unfortunately they broke up several years ago, I miss Aunt Chris!) and I think that I was lucky that everyone always just treated their relationship like it was normal and no big deal (because it was, but you know what I mean, some families go berserk over that sort of thing.) Neither one of them has ever been particularly "butch" so I guess I kind of grew up with the perspective that gay people are just like everyone else. The thing that blows my mind is that after seeing the totally normal relationship between my aunts, and loving and accepting my aunts as just part of the family my parents are STILL politically against gay marriage. What the hell
is that???
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:11:12 PM
I cant understand why ALL people cant keep their sexuality behind closed doors where it belongs instead of parading it around publicly and demanding entire Nations agree to what THEY deem reasonable to do .
Why does it belong behind closed doors? What if I'm not in the slightest insecure about my sexuality, but rather proud of it as a part of who I am? Why should I then keep it behind closed doors? Just so some sexually repressed people can feel good about themselves?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Some Atheists state they have subjective morality. But they tend to justify to themselves why something is immoral. If it has been justified via reason and thought then it really isn't a moral, but more of a personal value. The person isn't saying it is wrong because it is immoral, they are saying it is wrong because of xyz. This is amoralistic behavior not moralistic.
All people have personal values, this is a shortcut, fast dial list, to help them make decisions quickly. But another trait of being an Atheist is that we are usually open to re-evaluate our personal values against a specific situation or if new information presents itself or if we change e.g. mature with age and experience.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 15, 2012, 04:43:14 PM
The only thing they are demanding is to be treated like equal human beings. To get married like a human being, to not have to worry about people causing villence agaibst them just because they love the same gender. And that is the ONLY difference between a heterosexual and homosexual, gender preference, but no big, fat ass republicans and bible thumpers only.focus on a single small aspect of them.
So yes, they march for equal rights, the same way african americans and women did (and are still doing!!}
Because unless you're heterosexual, caucasian and MALE; this world is fucking shit.
Wow, you are homophobic, and I hope Whit and Tank see this.
Bolded text are my highlights, not
Sweetdeath's.
Sweetdeath, isn't what you're doing here basically painting with the same, broad brush you seem to dislike others doing? In this case, what you're accusing
SA of doing?
I agree with you on pretty much every aspect of what you're saying, with the exception of these generalizations. Not all registered Republicans are homophobes or bible thumpers, and I do know Democrats who are. I live next to two, in fact, and personally know and dislike several more.
Yes, the Republicans lean that way, and the current crop of presidential front runners are as you described, but it's not an accurate statement that all are.
And the latter generalization that I bolded is simply inaccurate.
Quote from: McQ on January 15, 2012, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 15, 2012, 04:43:14 PM
Because unless you're heterosexual, caucasian and MALE; this world is fucking shit.
generalization that I bolded is simply inaccurate.
Without taking
this thread too far off topic, can we do a spin off debate on this somewhere else? Sounds interesting....
Quote from: Tank on January 15, 2012, 09:52:11 AM
BCE, that was a cracking post. ;D
Thank you, Tank (I love British slang).
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:11:12 PM
I cant understand why ALL people cant keep their sexuality behind closed doors where it belongs instead of parading it around publicly and demanding entire Nations agree to what THEY deem reasonable to do .
So you also believe straights should not wear wedding rings or get married in public ceremonies, not have pictures of their lovers or families on their desks at work, not go with their partners to parties, not even talk with friends about the date they went on last night? I can't go along with that, it is way too harsh.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 15, 2012, 05:04:49 PM
Why does it belong behind closed doors? What if I'm not in the slightest insecure about my sexuality, but rather proud of it as a part of who I am? Why should I then keep it behind closed doors? Just so some sexually repressed people can feel good about themselves?
Would love to hear an answer to this.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy.
True, but very few atheists consider homosexuality amoral or apathetic. What you're being asked to do is breakdown your reasoning for believing it amoral. We know post 105 gave reasons, but it's been pointed out several times that those reasons are seriously flawed. You need to go into more detail.
SA:
I'd love to hear your answers to these questions:
- How do you feel about attempts in Nigeria and Uganda to jail or execute homosexuals? (See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/nigeria-anti-gay-marriage-bill_n_1118866.html)
- How do you feel about what happened to Mathew Shepherd, the Wyoming student who was tortured and murdered for being gay?
- How do you feel about the US military getting rid of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, whereby anyone who was discovered to be gay, even if they didn't publicly announce it, would be kicked out?
I didnt mean to generalise McQ ;; sorry. I was upset at his comments.
Everyone has problems in this world, in spite of race or gender.
I myself am mostly Irish, and live in the spanish ghetto. It kinda sucks, Lol! XD
Quote from: Ali on January 15, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Uh no, see, you still haven't explained why homosexuality is immoral.
See, here's the deal. I know why theists think that homosexuality is immoral - cause the bible says so. Pretty cut and dried.
What I don't understand is why an atheist (who presumably doesn't feel particularly drawn to believe something just because the bible says so) thinks that homosexuality is immoral. Stop referring us to read post 105, please. We've all read it. Please tell us why, specifically, homosexuality is immoral. Thank you.
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ? Here are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
Quote from: Tank on January 15, 2012, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 15, 2012, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 14, 2012, 04:35:39 PM
Ugh, wow. Why would anyone give a shit about someone's sexual prefernce? Seriously. I cannot believe this is an issue for any human being.
......................
I agree ; I cant understand why ALL people cant keep their sexuality behind closed doors where it belongs instead of parading it around publicly and demanding entire Nations agree to what THEY deem reasonable to do .
The only thing they are demanding is to be treated like equal human beings. To get married like a human being, to not have to worry about people causing villence agaibst them just because they love the same gender. And that is the ONLY difference between a heterosexual and homosexual, gender preference, but no big, fat ass republicans and bible thumpers only.focus on a single small aspect of them.
So yes, they march for equal rights, the same way african americans and women did (and are still doing!!}
Because unless you're heterosexual, caucasian and MALE; this world is fucking shit.
Wow, you are homophobic, and I hope Whit and Tank see this.
Have no fear SD ALL the staff are keeping a very close eye on the behaviour of SA.
Well...I never expected the Spanish Inquisition !
Quote from: Firebird on January 15, 2012, 07:11:37 PM
SA:
I'd love to hear your answers to these questions:
1- How do you feel about attempts in Nigeria and Uganda to jail or execute homosexuals? (See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/nigeria-anti-gay-marriage-bill_n_1118866.html)
2- How do you feel about what happened to Mathew Shepherd, the Wyoming student who was tortured and murdered for being gay?
3- How do you feel about the US military getting rid of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, whereby anyone who was discovered to be gay, even if they didn't publicly announce it, would be kicked out?
Answers--
1. I disagree with Nigeria and Uganda over their action. I think they should instead lovingly offer help toward the Homosexual thru free Government sponsored Counselling .
2. Murder is always wrong , regardless of how others try to justify it.
3. So long as a person is qualified and capable of being a U.S. Soldier , then they should be permitted to do what they signed up to do. I dont see any need for ANY person to announce their sexual desires or preferences in public , and believe there are some private things that need to be enshrouded in privacy, some level of sacredness , and personal responsibility. I could care less if that goes against our cultures grain or not , and i dont mind being labeled counter-culture on various issues.
How is this
QuoteI think they should instead lovingly offer help toward the Homosexual thru free Government sponsored Counselling
consistent with this?
QuoteI dont see any need for ANY person to announce their sexual desires or preferences in public , and believe there are some private things that need to be enshrouded in privacy, sacredness , and personal responsibility.
With regards to the first quote, what are they to be counseled for?
1. Their same sex attraction
or
2. Their desire to dress, walk and talk more femininely or masculinely than Struggling Atheist deems appropriate for that specific gender?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
...Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ?...
No. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Some behaviors (I assume you're talking about unprotected anal sex) are more dangerous than others. But many straight people engage in those behaviors. Lesbians do not. Some gay men do not. So instead of worrying about the behavior, you're trashing an entire population based on whom they love.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 09:12:03 PM
and believe there are some private things that need to be enshrouded in privacy, some level of sacredness
That there. Why?
"what atheists think about homosexuality?".
The short answer... I don't. It's like asking what I think about rocks. Sure, rocks are cool I guess. Flip it around and it's the same response. "what do atheists think about heterosexuality?"... I don't.
I think the biggest reason someone would care, is because it threatens their own sexuality. I would be willing to bet money that Fred Phelps is gay or bisexual. The other members of the Westbrook baptist church are probably just misguided/brain washed, but the sorce of the hate probably stems from phelps' own sexual doubt. The bible is a scapegoat.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 15, 2012, 07:19:23 PM
I didnt mean to generalise McQ ;; sorry. I was upset at his comments.
Everyone has problems in this world, in spite of race or gender.
I myself am mostly Irish, and live in the spanish ghetto. It kinda sucks, Lol! XD
Thanks. And my apologies, as well. I meant only to disagree with those points, not come across as confrontational about them, or rude.
Low blood sugar? Lack of sleep? Who knows! Lol!
Quote from: McQ on January 15, 2012, 10:15:02 PM
Low blood sugar? Lack of sleep? Who knows! Lol!
Conbine that with the lack of smokes, a back ache and a REALLY bad hair day, and you get the reason for The Asmo's current nail-spitting grumpiness. >:(
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 15, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Uh no, see, you still haven't explained why homosexuality is immoral.
See, here's the deal. I know why theists think that homosexuality is immoral - cause the bible says so. Pretty cut and dried.
What I don't understand is why an atheist (who presumably doesn't feel particularly drawn to believe something just because the bible says so) thinks that homosexuality is immoral. Stop referring us to read post 105, please. We've all read it. Please tell us why, specifically, homosexuality is immoral. Thank you.
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ? Here are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
No, SA, I would not agree with your premise because it makes no sense. The "severe consequences" you seem to be implying come with being homosexual do not go away if you are heterosexual. Plenty of heterosexual people have also gotten AIDS and other STDs, unfortunately. Plenty of heterosexual people also engage in anal sex. Plenty of homosexual people are also in loving, monogamous relationships, and do not exhibit the risky behaviors that you seem to generalize with all homosexuals. I know gay people who are parents, who are in committed relationships, who exhibit none of these supposedly risky behaviors, and they're among the finest people I know. You're generalizing that all homosexuals exhibit certain risky behavior, which is indeed the definition of prejudice against them as a group. You
are homophobic.
And it is that kind of mentality that has led to the kinds of horrible things I asked you about before (the anti-homosexual laws in Africa, Mathew Shepherd, etc). Those are rooted in homophobia and prejudice, the same kind that you are exhibiting by your statements above. You want to know why so many gay people suffer from depression and a higher rate of suicide, which is also cited in the link you posted? Maybe it's because there are people like you who claim they're immoral and dangerous people who do not deserve the same civil rights and protections as other people. Then they became scapegoats for people to blame society's ills on, and that manifests itself into what I cited earlier.
Mathew Shepherd was clearly targeted because he was gay. How is that not a hate-crime worthy of the same protections afforded to other persecuted minorities in the US? Is arguing for that protection really some kind of "special right"? If that's really how you feel, then I almost feel sorry for you. Almost, because it's people like you who stand by and argue that they don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us anyway, and that sickens me.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 15, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Uh no, see, you still haven't explained why homosexuality is immoral.
See, here's the deal. I know why theists think that homosexuality is immoral - cause the bible says so. Pretty cut and dried.
What I don't understand is why an atheist (who presumably doesn't feel particularly drawn to believe something just because the bible says so) thinks that homosexuality is immoral. Stop referring us to read post 105, please. We've all read it. Please tell us why, specifically, homosexuality is immoral. Thank you.
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ? Here are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
Can you please respond the points I made regarding this this a few pages back?
You seem to be repeating yourself without explaining much. I would appreciate it if you could address the points/questions I posed.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ?
No, I wouldn't. You seem to be suggesting that AIDS is some kind of retribution for sex between same-sex partners and, as far as I know, viruses don't work that way. I don't think AIDS exists as an indictor of an immoral lifestyle any more than any other STD does. If it was, heterosexuality would have been long ago condemned as dangerous and immoral.
As others have pointed out, I think what you're actually talking about is promiscuous and careless sexual behavior which is not restricted to any particular sexuality. Besides, you do realize that if you create underclasses out of people whose behavior is or can be dangerous to themselves or others, that's going to be a very large group? Drinkers, smokers, over-eaters, even people who work too much, and that's just for starters. I don't care at all for the social or political implications of interfering in peoples private lives that much, and condemning a very generally defined group because of what some of them do? There you're back to bigotry.
QuoteHere are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
Uh huh. Mostly religious sites with an axe to grind about sex they consider ungodly. I don't consider them any more persuasive than you would probably consider a liberal, secular site known to support gay rights.
SA with your logic of the dangers that can be associated with homosexual sex wouldn't heterosexual sex and heterosexual sex resulting in conception be considered an immoral action by your standards? I don't think I need to go into all the dangers that are associated with sex as you most likely know them, so why do you think homosexual sex is immoral due to the dangers yet you do not hold the same standards for heterosexual sex when there are more dangers that can be associated with it due to the inability for homosexual sex being unable to result in conception.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ?
No I don't agree with your 'premise" (it's not a premise btw;it is a statement that must be supported not a statement that is fundamentally true), because all sex is dangerous if you don't select your partner responsibly and don't follow safe practices. I don't know how many gay people you actually have known well enough to realize this; but they don't go around sleeping with just anything that moves they have standards of responsibility just like any straight person and most gay people are seeking out monogamous relationships just like most straight people do. Plus, straight people get dangerous diseases from sex too. The only reason the AIDS issue got so far out of control is because we didn't know much about the disease until fairly recently....for example, testing for AIDs in blood wasn't even common 30 years ago; it was so new that you had to ask for the test prior to a transfusion rather than it being standard.
Also, please do not link to a google search result when trying to support your views...it's lazy and doesn't actually tell us anything as you couldn't have possibly read through all those results.
What century do you live in?
While I agree a very permiscuious lifestyle can be dangeruous (STDs, unwanted pregnancy, etc) -- that has NOTHING to do with sexual preference. Plenty of heterosexual women and men have gotten STDs from sleeping around or having unprotected sex.
I am 26years old in a three year-- going on four year --commited relationship. I am a big believer in monagomy. This is my second serious relationship. I have no STDs, and feel very loyal to my gf. What exactly does that say about me? e__e
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 15, 2012, 11:57:36 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ?
No, I wouldn't. You seem to be suggesting that AIDS is some kind of retribution for sex between same-sex partners and, as far as I know, viruses don't work that way. I don't think AIDS exists as an indictor of an immoral lifestyle any more than any other STD does. If it was, heterosexuality would have been long ago condemned as dangerous and immoral.
As others have pointed out, I think what you're actually talking about is promiscuous and careless sexual behavior which is not restricted to any particular sexuality. Besides, you do realize that if you create underclasses out of people whose behavior is or can be dangerous to themselves or others, that's going to be a very large group? Drinkers, smokers, over-eaters, even people who work too much, and that's just for starters. I don't care at all for the social or political implications of interfering in peoples private lives that much, and condemning a very generally defined group because of what some of them do? There you're back to bigotry.
QuoteHere are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
Uh huh. Mostly religious sites with an axe to grind about sex they consider ungodly. I don't consider them any more persuasive than you would probably consider a liberal, secular site known to support gay rights.
These were all the points I wanted to make, except I had to leave to go to my parents' house.
Look, SA, you say that that homosexual activity is immoral because it's dangerous. The truth is that all sexual activity carries with it some risks, even within a committed monogamous relationship. The truth is that there is no such thing as "innocents" when it comes to sexual relationships. Sure, some of us have a reasonable expectation of monogamy (for example, I'm married and in an 8 year+ monogamous relationship - I would be shocked to get an STD at this point) but I think that most of us are mature enough to know that even what we think of as a monogamous relationship is not a 100% guarantee that we won't get an STD. I'm 99% confident that my spouse would never step out on me, but I'm also old enough to know that shit happens, and every time I have sex, I'm still engaging in a potentially risky behavior. I'm not an innocent because I know it's theoretically possible that my spouse will be unfaithful and that he may bring something home. That's not a gay problem, that's a people problem. Taking "innocents" out of it, you are arguing that homosexuality is immoral because it is "dangerous." Do you feel that other "dangerous" behavior is also immoral? For example: overeating, not exercising, drinking alcohol, driving a car, living in certain neighborhoods, et cetera? Or do you accept that adults are able to take their own risks without considering them "immoral"?
Well said, Ali. I especially like your point"a people problem" because that is exactly what it is.
Anyone can get an STD at any point.
My friend's aunt got HIV from a bad blood transfusion! That is scary!
Quote from: Stevil on January 15, 2012, 09:20:20 PM
How is this
QuoteI think they should instead lovingly offer help toward the Homosexual thru free Government sponsored Counselling
consistent with this?
QuoteI dont see any need for ANY person to announce their sexual desires or preferences in public , and believe there are some private things that need to be enshrouded in privacy, sacredness , and personal responsibility.
With regards to the first quote, what are they to be counseled for?
1. Their same sex attraction
or
2. Their desire to dress, walk and talk more femininely or masculinely than Struggling Atheist deems appropriate for that specific gender?
1. They would be counselled in an effort to exit a lifestyle that has been proven to be very very dangerous to their health and life .
2. Im not the one who dresses a homosexual person, nor do I tell them how to dress, nor are they accountable to me ; just as you can tell when a person is drunk by their appearance, behaviour, and talk... you can usually tell if people in public are homosexual . And no..it is not wrong to discern another since we all do that every single day of our lives .
Does this satisfy your inquiry, or, do you have some more questions which id be pleased to answer ?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 09:12:03 PM
and believe there are some private things that need to be enshrouded in privacy, some level of sacredness
That there. Why?
[/quote]
Why do YOU believe some things are best kept to oneself , and, what is inherently wrong with keeping some things that are very personal and meaningful to ourselves ? Would it be proper behaviour for me to announce to you on a daily continued basis my level of orgasms and where I put my penis the night before ? Or, would that be information that you didnt need to know ?
Quote from: Firebird on January 15, 2012, 10:51:29 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 15, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 14, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 14, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
Struggling Atheist - As an atheist, can you please tell us why you object so strongly to homosexuality? Thx.
I already did . Read Post 105 . I replied in accordance to the OP asking me what i thought about it.
Can you please explain WHY it is a "perversion" and why you care what other people do anyway. ... From the perspective of an atheist, please. Thx.
From the perspective of an Atheist, not all Atheists embrace amorality and apathy. Did you think these were two universal traits among all Atheists ?
Uh no, see, you still haven't explained why homosexuality is immoral.
See, here's the deal. I know why theists think that homosexuality is immoral - cause the bible says so. Pretty cut and dried.
What I don't understand is why an atheist (who presumably doesn't feel particularly drawn to believe something just because the bible says so) thinks that homosexuality is immoral. Stop referring us to read post 105, please. We've all read it. Please tell us why, specifically, homosexuality is immoral. Thank you.
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ? Here are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
No, SA, I would not agree with your premise because it makes no sense. The "severe consequences" you seem to be implying come with being homosexual do not go away if you are heterosexual. Plenty of heterosexual people have also gotten AIDS and other STDs, unfortunately. Plenty of heterosexual people also engage in anal sex. Plenty of homosexual people are also in loving, monogamous relationships, and do not exhibit the risky behaviors that you seem to generalize with all homosexuals. I know gay people who are parents, who are in committed relationships, who exhibit none of these supposedly risky behaviors, and they're among the finest people I know. You're generalizing that all homosexuals exhibit certain risky behavior, which is indeed the definition of prejudice against them as a group. You are homophobic.
And it is that kind of mentality that has led to the kinds of horrible things I asked you about before (the anti-homosexual laws in Africa, Mathew Shepherd, etc). Those are rooted in homophobia and prejudice, the same kind that you are exhibiting by your statements above. You want to know why so many gay people suffer from depression and a higher rate of suicide, which is also cited in the link you posted? Maybe it's because there are people like you who claim they're immoral and dangerous people who do not deserve the same civil rights and protections as other people. Then they became scapegoats for people to blame society's ills on, and that manifests itself into what I cited earlier.
Mathew Shepherd was clearly targeted because he was gay. How is that not a hate-crime worthy of the same protections afforded to other persecuted minorities in the US? Is arguing for that protection really some kind of "special right"? If that's really how you feel, then I almost feel sorry for you. Almost, because it's people like you who stand by and argue that they don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us anyway, and that sickens me.
Thanks for your opinion . And, because a different sexual venue has some danger to it, doesnt nullify the dangerous proven facts about homosexuality.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 09:12:03 PM
and believe there are some private things that need to be enshrouded in privacy, some level of sacredness
That there. Why?
Why do YOU believe some things are best kept to oneself , and, what is inherently wrong with keeping some things that are very personal and meaningful to ourselves ? Would it be proper behaviour for me to announce to you on a daily continued basis my level of orgasms and where I put my penis the night before ? Or, would that be information that you didnt need to know ?
[/quote]
Well, I agree that no one needs to know where you put your penis the night before (thanks for that visual, by the way. I pictured a penis in a butter dish.) But I don't think that's the limit to what you're talking about in regards to homosexuals. For example, sometimes when we are out in public, I will hold hands with my husband while we walk, or he will put an arm around me. Nothing at all to do with orgasms or penises, just a simple gesture of affection between a married couple. Do you object to that? If not, why should it be any different for a homosexual couple?
My point is, there is a lot of ground to cover in between talking about your sex life in uncomfortably intimate detail and keeping all signs of being in a relationship behind closed doors.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 15, 2012, 11:57:36 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ?
No, I wouldn't. You seem to be suggesting that AIDS is some kind of retribution for sex between same-sex partners and, as far as I know, viruses don't work that way. I don't think AIDS exists as an indictor of an immoral lifestyle any more than any other STD does. If it was, heterosexuality would have been long ago condemned as dangerous and immoral.
As others have pointed out, I think what you're actually talking about is promiscuous and careless sexual behavior which is not restricted to any particular sexuality. Besides, you do realize that if you create underclasses out of people whose behavior is or can be dangerous to themselves or others, that's going to be a very large group? Drinkers, smokers, over-eaters, even people who work too much, and that's just for starters. I don't care at all for the social or political implications of interfering in peoples private lives that much, and condemning a very generally defined group because of what some of them do? There you're back to bigotry.
QuoteHere are some other reasons : https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=What+are+the+dangers+of+homosexuality+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS419US419
Uh huh. Mostly religious sites with an axe to grind about sex they consider ungodly. I don't consider them any more persuasive than you would probably consider a liberal, secular site known to support gay rights.
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
Quote from: Whitney on January 16, 2012, 12:55:31 AM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 15, 2012, 08:54:01 PM
Fundamentally, because Homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle both to the Participants as well as non-participating innocent people who often get disease infection, often culminating in premature death. I think that is a good reason why it is immoral ; if it were truly just 'another permissable and acceptable lifestyle choice' , then the severe consequences should not exist. Would you concur with this premise ?
No I don't agree with your 'premise" .............
Also, please do not link to a google search result when trying to support your views...it's lazy and doesn't actually tell us anything as you couldn't have possibly read through all those results.
Actually, the point i was trying to make by linking to a google-search result on a subject being questioned...was to show how some people are willfully ignorant of the issue yet are too lazy in body and mind to be assertive in discovering the real truth . I will, per your request, not link to a google search result henceforth.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 04:49:54 PM
Why do YOU believe some things are best kept to oneself
I don't, with the exception of keeping professional secrets or other secrets one can profit from in one way or another.
Quoteand, what is inherently wrong with keeping some things that are very personal and meaningful to ourselves ?
Nothing. But why should it be the norm?
Quote
Would it be proper behaviour for me to announce to you on a daily continued basis my level of orgasms and where I put my penis the night before ? Or, would that be information that you didnt need to know ?
Oh, I wouldn't mind. It is well within your rights to share and well within my rights not to listen if it doesn't interest me.
So, the level of orgasms. Increasing? Decreasing? Holding steady?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
I think you're overstating the level of "danger" when it comes to homosexual sex, and understating the level of "danger" when it comes to heterosexual sex.
No sex is 100% safe. Certain behaviors (like promiscuity) increase the risk of catching an STD. There are promiscuous people of all stripes (hetero, homo, bi, whatever people consider themselves.)
And the bottom line is, I think that adults are capable of weighing the risks of sex without considering them "immoral."
What's more likely to kill me first, I wonder..? Sex, smokes or eating habits?
Quote from: Asmodean on January 16, 2012, 05:13:50 PM
What's more likely to kill me first, I wonder..? Sex, smokes or eating habits?
And if you cut all of those out, could you live forever? Would you want to?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
Wow, did you really just say that? :o
You've been corrected on this numerous times on this thread, but you still keep your blinders on. If you look up the statistics (google is your friend), you'll see that there's actually a higher proportion of STDs in the heterosexul popluation than homosexual.
Your arguments are weak and biased. If you want to be taken seriously please reformulate them.
Quote from: Ali on January 16, 2012, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 16, 2012, 05:13:50 PM
What's more likely to kill me first, I wonder..? Sex, smokes or eating habits?
And if you cut all of those out, could you live forever? Would you want to?
Heh... No, I would not want that. I'd rather be a supermassive star and go out in a supernova long before my billionth birthday than be a solar mass star and go out with a whimper after a half eternity.
SA...I'm still waiting for you to actually address the people who have indicated where your reasoning is off. So far we have only established that you at least agree that straight sex can also be dangerous. So why did you throw out so much hatred towards homosexuals earlier in the post which threw up red flags? Either you have more "reasons" for why you don't like the idea that gay people exist or it's time to retract your previous beliefs now that you've had more time to think about it.
I'd also like more reasons for why you think PDA is bad. Why should I care if two people hold hands or kiss each other in public? Why should I care if those two people happen to be unmarried or gay? Does their love for each other hurt me? Should we make displaying of affection illegal just to make the more prudish among us feel comfortable? WHY??
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
How is this still not a private matter? How does this involve all people of a specific sexuality even if they are not promiscuous? How are other dangerous, biologically harmful acts not included?
Also, I do not see homosexuality as being vehemently endorsed as socially acceptable. It's being occasionally acknowledged to actually exist in ways that are not stereotypical, and is being slowly (and I hope surely) legally presented as "not your business" to people who wish to interfere in others private lives.
Quote from: Ali on January 16, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
I think you're overstating the level of "danger" when it comes to homosexual sex, and understating the level of "danger" when it comes to heterosexual sex.
No sex is 100% safe. Certain behaviors (like promiscuity) increase the risk of catching an STD. There are promiscuous people of all stripes (hetero, homo, bi, whatever people consider themselves.)
And the bottom line is, I think that adults are capable of weighing the risks of sex without considering them "immoral."
The independent facts for sexual hedonisms STD epidemic , clearly show that people are ill-informed and/or are apathetic to the dangers :
One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming...
Random facts and figures.
* One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
* Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
* The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
* The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming.
* There are over 15,000,000 new cases of STDs a year.
* Over 70,000 Americans have a viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or Hepatitis B.
* Individuals under 25 have two-thirds of the STD cases in the U.S.
* 1 out of 4 teens will contract an STD.
* 1,000,000 teenage pregnancies each year.
Rates of curable STD cases in the U.S. are the highest in the developed world.
* There are 150 STD cases per 100,000 in the U.S. versus 3 cases per 100,000 in Sweden.
* Over 70,000 Americans have viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or hepatitis B.
* Viral STDs such as HPV, herpes, and hepatitis B are lifelong diseases.
* Many people experience no noticeable symptoms initially, but can still pass on the disease.
* Women are up to 5 times more likely to become infected and suffer more serious consequences.
Over 20,000 new cases of HIV/AIDS are diagnosed each year in the U.S.
* 62% of those cases reported before 1996 have died (319,000 Americans).
* Women now represent 30% of new HIV/AIDS cases reported.
* 75% of the cases are from heterosexual sex.
* 3 out of 5 Americans with HIV were infected as teens.
* HIV infection rates are 10 times higher when STDs are not treated properly.
Sexual habits reinforce the need to use condoms.
* Age of sexual maturity is decreasing; age of marriage is increasing.
* More sex, more partners, more risk.
* 46% of teens (14-18) have had intercourse.
* 50% divorce rate means reentering the dating scene to deal with new health challenges.
Sources: American Social Health Association, CDC, Kaiser Foundation
Your argument is so invalid, SA.
Seriously, where are you from?
Your parasitic way of thinking leaves nothing to be desired. I feel very bad for you.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:00:24 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 16, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
I think you're overstating the level of "danger" when it comes to homosexual sex, and understating the level of "danger" when it comes to heterosexual sex.
No sex is 100% safe. Certain behaviors (like promiscuity) increase the risk of catching an STD. There are promiscuous people of all stripes (hetero, homo, bi, whatever people consider themselves.)
And the bottom line is, I think that adults are capable of weighing the risks of sex without considering them "immoral."
The independent facts for sexual hedonisms STD epidemic , clearly show that people are ill-informed and/or are apathetic to the dangers :
One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming...
Random facts and figures.
* One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
* Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
* The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
* The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming.
* There are over 15,000,000 new cases of STDs a year.
* Over 70,000 Americans have a viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or Hepatitis B.
* Individuals under 25 have two-thirds of the STD cases in the U.S.
* 1 out of 4 teens will contract an STD.
* 1,000,000 teenage pregnancies each year.
Rates of curable STD cases in the U.S. are the highest in the developed world.
* There are 150 STD cases per 100,000 in the U.S. versus 3 cases per 100,000 in Sweden.
* Over 70,000 Americans have viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or hepatitis B.
* Viral STDs such as HPV, herpes, and hepatitis B are lifelong diseases.
* Many people experience no noticeable symptoms initially, but can still pass on the disease.
* Women are up to 5 times more likely to become infected and suffer more serious consequences.
Over 20,000 new cases of HIV/AIDS are diagnosed each year in the U.S.
* 62% of those cases reported before 1996 have died (319,000 Americans).
* Women now represent 30% of new HIV/AIDS cases reported.
* 75% of the cases are from heterosexual sex.
* 3 out of 5 Americans with HIV were infected as teens.
* HIV infection rates are 10 times higher when STDs are not treated properly.
Sexual habits reinforce the need to use condoms.
* Age of sexual maturity is decreasing; age of marriage is increasing.
* More sex, more partners, more risk.
* 46% of teens (14-18) have had intercourse.
* 50% divorce rate means reentering the dating scene to deal with new health challenges.
Sources: American Social Health Association, CDC, Kaiser Foundation
Yep. So why is any of this an argument that homosexual sex is immoral? Did you happen to notice the part where it actually says that 75% of the new cases of HIV are from heterosexual sex? So if you equate "dangerous" with "immoral" then wouldn't you consider hetero sex more "immoral" than homosexual sex?
People are often stupid about sex and always have been, whatever their sexuality. This is one of life's risks, and if your concern is making life risk-free, I don't think that can be done. I'm not even sure it should be done. In any case, what do all those statistics have to do with it being right to discriminate against and oppress homosexuals?
Quote from: Whitney on January 16, 2012, 05:52:27 PM
SA...I'm still waiting for you to actually address the people who have indicated where your reasoning is off. So far we have only established that you at least agree that straight sex can also be dangerous. So why did you throw out so much hatred towards homosexuals earlier in the post which threw up red flags? Either you have more "reasons" for why you don't like the idea that gay people exist or it's time to retract your previous beliefs now that you've had more time to think about it.
I'd also like more reasons for why you think PDA is bad. Why should I care if two people hold hands or kiss each other in public? Why should I care if those two people happen to be unmarried or gay? Does their love for each other hurt me? Should we make displaying of affection illegal just to make the more prudish among us feel comfortable? WHY??
I qualified my stand on why I do not agree with homosexuality, per the OP's request allowing me the right to do so . I also clarified that i do not hate a person or group but I have reasons for finding some lifestyle choices , homosexuality included , abberrant and dangerous from independent published data reflecting current reality here in the U.S. This information stands on its own, and i dont wish to get into the periphial habits of the homosexual community which you have brought up. Thank you though for your contribution.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:00:24 PM
The independent facts for sexual hedonisms STD epidemic , clearly show that people are ill-informed and/or are apathetic to the dangers :
I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this forum was already well aware of the risks of having unprotected sex with unfamiliar partners (we aren't naive teenagers raised in rural religious communities or drug addicts...those are the ones driving up the statistics)...no one here is advocating sleeping around indiscriminately.
Try to stay on topic....
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:23:19 PM
Quote from: Whitney on January 16, 2012, 05:52:27 PM
SA...I'm still waiting for you to actually address the people who have indicated where your reasoning is off. So far we have only established that you at least agree that straight sex can also be dangerous. So why did you throw out so much hatred towards homosexuals earlier in the post which threw up red flags? Either you have more "reasons" for why you don't like the idea that gay people exist or it's time to retract your previous beliefs now that you've had more time to think about it.
I'd also like more reasons for why you think PDA is bad. Why should I care if two people hold hands or kiss each other in public? Why should I care if those two people happen to be unmarried or gay? Does their love for each other hurt me? Should we make displaying of affection illegal just to make the more prudish among us feel comfortable? WHY??
I qualified my stand on why I do not agree with homosexuality, per the OP's request allowing me the right to do so . I also clarified that i do not hate a person or group but I have reasons for finding some lifestyle choices , homosexuality included , abberrant and dangerous from independent published data reflecting current reality here in the U.S. This information stands on its own, and i dont wish to get into the periphial habits of the homosexual community which you have brought up. Thank you though for your contribution.
I suggest you think about your decision to not want to explore your beliefs rationally...you are on very thin ice here and if you continue to post on this topic without backing up your views you'll have broken that ice.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 16, 2012, 06:12:34 PM
People are often stupid about sex and always have been, whatever their sexuality. This is one of life's risks, and if your concern is making life risk-free, I don't think that can be done. I'm not even sure it should be done.......
What is the downside to trying to make a particular lifestyle which is/has shown itself to be extremely dangerous toward its Players and a nation at large, risk free or at least moving in that direction ? Im just wondering if there are any plans that could be implemented to assist in this endeavor ... have you any ideas ?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 16, 2012, 06:12:34 PM
People are often stupid about sex and always have been, whatever their sexuality. This is one of life's risks, and if your concern is making life risk-free, I don't think that can be done. I'm not even sure it should be done.......
What is the downside to trying to make a particular lifestyle which is/has shown itself to be extremely dangerous toward its Players and a nation at large, risk free or at least moving in that direction ? Im just wondering if there are any plans that could be implemented to assist in this endeavor ... have you any ideas ?
Please excuse me butting in, but I'll try my hand at answering some questions.
When you say that this "game" has risks, I'm assuming that you mean homosexual sex. If it has been proven that heterosexual sex is also dangerous, would it make sense to do away with that as well? Both are basically a game of Russian roulette when it comes to the diseases that can be transmitted. Even oral sex can transmit the same diseases. To wipe out all the dangers that you are listing, one would need to stop
all sexual behavior. Which, of course, would eventually lead to extinction of humans.
As for plans of reducing disease, I pretty much believe that one should know of their partner's sexual history and not have sex with just anybody. Basically using common sense.
*Edit for a typo
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 16, 2012, 06:12:34 PM
People are often stupid about sex and always have been, whatever their sexuality. This is one of life's risks, and if your concern is making life risk-free, I don't think that can be done. I'm not even sure it should be done.......
What is the downside to trying to make a particular lifestyle which is/has shown itself to be extremely dangerous toward its Players and a nation at large, risk free or at least moving in that direction ?
The downside is social fascism, and the "extreme danger" has not been demonstrated. Yes, AIDS is a terrible thing, so is cancer from smoking, heart attack or stroke from obesity, to say nothing of the fallout from drunk driving. But none of these things are a danger to the "nation at large" and none are particular to a specific group of people any more than promiscuous sex is specific to homosexuals.
QuoteIm just wondering if there are any plans that could be implemented to assist in this endeavor ... have you any ideas ?
No I don't because I'm not at all in favor of stepping on other peoples lives unnecessarily. And you've yet to address the bigotry of punishing many for the acts of a few, acts which are also committed by those in other groups who are somehow given a pass on it.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 06:48:34 PMAs for plans of reducing disease, I pretty much believe that one should know of their partner's sexual history and not have sex with just anybody. Basically using common sense.
You don't need the whole history, just the results of the test after the last partner.
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 06:48:34 PMAs for plans of reducing disease, I pretty much believe that one should know of their partner's sexual history and not have sex with just anybody. Basically using common sense.
You don't need the whole history, just the results of the test after the last partner.
True, I hadn't thought of that.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
1. They would be counselled in an effort to exit a lifestyle that has been proven to be very very dangerous to their health and life .
2. Im not the one who dresses a homosexual person, nor do I tell them how to dress, nor are they accountable to me ; just as you can tell when a person is drunk by their appearance, behaviour, and talk... you can usually tell if people in public are homosexual . And no..it is not wrong to discern another since we all do that every single day of our lives .
Does this satisfy your inquiry, or, do you have some more questions which id be pleased to answer ?
Yes I have more questions, thanks for the offer.
With regards to 2.
You had previously stated that you don't want people parading their sexuallity in public and that you think it should be kept private.
But your answer to 2 shows that you recognise that in some circumstances it is unavoidable. Struggling Atheist has a gay-dar and can spot a gay person who is simply being themselves.
So what I am asking is, do you think gay people need to become someone else in order to stop Struggling Atheist's gay-dar going off?
So that Struggling Atheist can feel more comfortable in public places, being ignorant of who is gay and who is not.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:00:24 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 16, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
I think you're overstating the level of "danger" when it comes to homosexual sex, and understating the level of "danger" when it comes to heterosexual sex.
No sex is 100% safe. Certain behaviors (like promiscuity) increase the risk of catching an STD. There are promiscuous people of all stripes (hetero, homo, bi, whatever people consider themselves.)
And the bottom line is, I think that adults are capable of weighing the risks of sex without considering them "immoral."
The independent facts for sexual hedonisms STD epidemic , clearly show that people are ill-informed and/or are apathetic to the dangers :
One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming...
Random facts and figures.
* One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
* Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
* The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
* The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming.
* There are over 15,000,000 new cases of STDs a year.
* Over 70,000 Americans have a viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or Hepatitis B.
* Individuals under 25 have two-thirds of the STD cases in the U.S.
* 1 out of 4 teens will contract an STD.
* 1,000,000 teenage pregnancies each year.
Rates of curable STD cases in the U.S. are the highest in the developed world.
* There are 150 STD cases per 100,000 in the U.S. versus 3 cases per 100,000 in Sweden.
* Over 70,000 Americans have viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or hepatitis B.
* Viral STDs such as HPV, herpes, and hepatitis B are lifelong diseases.
* Many people experience no noticeable symptoms initially, but can still pass on the disease.
* Women are up to 5 times more likely to become infected and suffer more serious consequences.
Over 20,000 new cases of HIV/AIDS are diagnosed each year in the U.S.
* 62% of those cases reported before 1996 have died (319,000 Americans).
* Women now represent 30% of new HIV/AIDS cases reported.
* 75% of the cases are from heterosexual sex.
* 3 out of 5 Americans with HIV were infected as teens.
* HIV infection rates are 10 times higher when STDs are not treated properly.
Sexual habits reinforce the need to use condoms.
* Age of sexual maturity is decreasing; age of marriage is increasing.
* More sex, more partners, more risk.
* 46% of teens (14-18) have had intercourse.
* 50% divorce rate means reentering the dating scene to deal with new health challenges.
Sources: American Social Health Association, CDC, Kaiser Foundation
Ok SA, you just proved my point. We keep asking you to back up your claims that homosexuality is somehow "abberrant and dangerous from independent published data reflecting current reality here in the U.S." In response, you posted a bunch of facts up above which do nothing to prove your point. In fact, as Ali pointed out earlier, your own statistics say that 75% of new HIV/AIDS cases in the US are from heterosexual sex. If nothing else, you have proven our point, which is that sex can be dangerous for anybody if you're not careful and responsible about it.
I tried to have a serious back-and-forth with you about this, but all you do is claim that there are "facts" which don't exist to support your flawed argument which has no substance. You're not worthy of my attention anymore.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 06:48:34 PMAs for plans of reducing disease, I pretty much believe that one should know of their partner's sexual history and not have sex with just anybody. Basically using common sense.
You don't need the whole history, just the results of the test after the last partner.
True, I hadn't thought of that.
I just found that getting an entire historty is near impossible and the only thing I really care about is if the person has something I don't want. Even with that, I still use and advocate for using protection.
I'll be lurking for a while, since we seem to have all made very clear- valid points in reguards to SA. At this point, we are just feeding the troll.
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 07:50:21 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 06:48:34 PMAs for plans of reducing disease, I pretty much believe that one should know of their partner's sexual history and not have sex with just anybody. Basically using common sense.
You don't need the whole history, just the results of the test after the last partner.
True, I hadn't thought of that.
I just found that getting an entire historty is near impossible and the only thing I really care about is if the person has something I don't want. Even with that, I still use and advocate for using protection.
I've been told my my mother (who works in an OBGYN) that even if you use protection, it's not guarantied that you won't catch something.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 07:59:18 PMQuote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 07:50:21 PMI just found that getting an entire historty is near impossible and the only thing I really care about is if the person has something I don't want. Even with that, I still use and advocate for using protection.
I've been told my my mother (who works in an OBGYN) that even if you use protection, it's not guarantied that you won't catch something.
Yes, and even with a clean test result one can catch something, and even with both a clean test result and using protection, one can catch something. I just mean that I do both and advocate for doing both. There is no 100% protection (other than not having sex), and there are even crazier protection methods that are safer than mine, but this is the amount of effort I'm willing to put in for the amount of reduced probability of catching something.
Quote from: Davin on January 16, 2012, 08:08:03 PM
I've been told my my mother (who works in an OBGYN) that even if you use protection, it's not guarantied that you won't catch something.
Yes, and even with a clean test result one can catch something, and even with both a clean test result and using protection, one can catch something. I just mean that I do both and advocate for doing both. There is no 100% protection (other than not having sex), and there are even crazier protection methods that are safer than mine, but this is the amount of effort I'm willing to put in for the amount of reduced probability of catching something.
[/quote]
I'd rather be 99% protected then 87% (made up percents off the top of my head)
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:23:19 PM
Quote from: Whitney on January 16, 2012, 05:52:27 PM
SA...I'm still waiting for you to actually address the people who have indicated where your reasoning is off. So far we have only established that you at least agree that straight sex can also be dangerous. So why did you throw out so much hatred towards homosexuals earlier in the post which threw up red flags? Either you have more "reasons" for why you don't like the idea that gay people exist or it's time to retract your previous beliefs now that you've had more time to think about it.
I'd also like more reasons for why you think PDA is bad. Why should I care if two people hold hands or kiss each other in public? Why should I care if those two people happen to be unmarried or gay? Does their love for each other hurt me? Should we make displaying of affection illegal just to make the more prudish among us feel comfortable? WHY??
I qualified my stand on why I do not agree with homosexuality, per the OP's request allowing me the right to do so . I also clarified that i do not hate a person or group but I have reasons for finding some lifestyle choices , homosexuality included , abberrant and dangerous from independent published data reflecting current reality here in the U.S. This information stands on its own, and i dont wish to get into the periphial habits of the homosexual community which you have brought up. Thank you though for your contribution.
I still don't see the info that you want to use to support your case other than ignorant biases passed down by bigoted people.
Quote from: Firebird on January 16, 2012, 07:40:22 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:00:24 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 16, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 05:04:02 PM
How is ANY sex act which carries with it a very high degree of physical and/or biological harm ... (often leading to fatality).... be considered acceptable to engage in / just a viable alternative / and be vehemently endorsed to the masses as socially acceptable ?
I think you're overstating the level of "danger" when it comes to homosexual sex, and understating the level of "danger" when it comes to heterosexual sex.
No sex is 100% safe. Certain behaviors (like promiscuity) increase the risk of catching an STD. There are promiscuous people of all stripes (hetero, homo, bi, whatever people consider themselves.)
And the bottom line is, I think that adults are capable of weighing the risks of sex without considering them "immoral."
The independent facts for sexual hedonisms STD epidemic , clearly show that people are ill-informed and/or are apathetic to the dangers :
One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming...
Random facts and figures.
* One out of 4 women and one out of 5 men have no knowledge about their sexual partners' history.
* Two-thirds of 1,000 women age 18 to 60 knew nothing or very little about STDs (other than HIV/AIDS) in 1995.
* The highest at-risk groups are adolescents and gays. African American and Hispanic women are also in the high-risk group.
* The rate of unwanted pregnancies and incidence of disease is alarming.
* There are over 15,000,000 new cases of STDs a year.
* Over 70,000 Americans have a viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or Hepatitis B.
* Individuals under 25 have two-thirds of the STD cases in the U.S.
* 1 out of 4 teens will contract an STD.
* 1,000,000 teenage pregnancies each year.
Rates of curable STD cases in the U.S. are the highest in the developed world.
* There are 150 STD cases per 100,000 in the U.S. versus 3 cases per 100,000 in Sweden.
* Over 70,000 Americans have viral STD--like genital herpes, HIV/AIDS, or hepatitis B.
* Viral STDs such as HPV, herpes, and hepatitis B are lifelong diseases.
* Many people experience no noticeable symptoms initially, but can still pass on the disease.
* Women are up to 5 times more likely to become infected and suffer more serious consequences.
Over 20,000 new cases of HIV/AIDS are diagnosed each year in the U.S.
* 62% of those cases reported before 1996 have died (319,000 Americans).
* Women now represent 30% of new HIV/AIDS cases reported.
* 75% of the cases are from heterosexual sex.
* 3 out of 5 Americans with HIV were infected as teens.
* HIV infection rates are 10 times higher when STDs are not treated properly.
Sexual habits reinforce the need to use condoms.
* Age of sexual maturity is decreasing; age of marriage is increasing.
* More sex, more partners, more risk.
* 46% of teens (14-18) have had intercourse.
* 50% divorce rate means reentering the dating scene to deal with new health challenges.
Sources: American Social Health Association, CDC, Kaiser Foundation
Ok SA, you just proved my point. We keep asking you to back up your claims that homosexuality is somehow "abberrant and dangerous from independent published data reflecting current reality here in the U.S." In response, you posted a bunch of facts up above which do nothing to prove your point. In fact, as Ali pointed out earlier, your own statistics say that 75% of new HIV/AIDS cases in the US are from heterosexual sex. If nothing else, you have proven our point, which is that sex can be dangerous for anybody if you're not careful and responsible about it.
I tried to have a serious back-and-forth with you about this, but all you do is claim that there are "facts" which don't exist to support your flawed argument which has no substance. You're not worthy of my attention anymore.
Took the words right out of my mouth :)
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 16, 2012, 07:59:18 PM
I've been told my my mother (who works in an OBGYN) that even if you use protection, it's not guarantied that you won't catch something.
Yes, because condoms can break (and you don't necessarily know if it's just a small tear) and there are some types of STDs that aren't prevented by the condom because they affect the surrounding skin too. Then there is also the other issue of not using the protection methods correctly; such as waiting to put it on till climax. But, even if no one practiced being careful to try to select a disease free partner the rate of STD transfer (especially of the really dangerous ones) would be minimal if everyone were actually using protection.
Even though complete abstinence is the only truly safe option, most people's sex drive end up overpowering them (it's a very strong natural drive that is difficult to ignore) so it's best that they be prepared with protection instead of pretending like they aren't going to ever have sex. Ignoring the control of that sex drive is why the pregnancy rates are so high in teens; they aren't prepared for when their instincts get the better of them.
Quote from: Whitney on January 16, 2012, 08:51:41 PM
they aren't prepared for when their instincts get the better of them.
Absolutely, and these campaign for abstinence only education are just abhorrent.
With holding of knowledge is very dangerous, the crazy things some young teenagers think about sex is ignorant and dangerous. I remember a statement from an African official, Minister of health or something like that, he stated that you wouldn't catch AIDS if you took a shower straight after sex.
Sidestepping the whole SA back-and-forth and returning to an earlier part of the discussion:
To me, the argument that a person does not choose whom they're sexually attracted to (which I think is true) has never been the strongest argument for equal rights or against bigotry.
And the "who would choose to be gay given the hatred/persecution" argument is almost offensive. No one ever says, "Who would choose to be [insert racial/ethnic minority] given the racism/xenophobia experienced by that group" or "Who would choose to be a woman given the sexism?"
Quote from: Anne D. on January 17, 2012, 12:50:28 AM
Sidestepping the whole SA back-and-forth and returning to an earlier part of the discussion:
To me, the argument that a person does not choose whom they're sexually attracted to (which I think is true) has never been the strongest argument for equal rights or against bigotry.
And the "who would choose to be gay given the hatred/persecution" argument is almost offensive. No one ever says, "Who would choose to be [insert racial/ethnic minority] given the racism/xenophobia experienced by that group" or "Who would choose to be a woman given the sexism?"
Totally agree!
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 06:23:19 PM
Quote from: Whitney
Why should I care if two people hold hands or kiss each other in public? Why should I care if those two people happen to be unmarried or gay? Does their love for each other hurt me? Should we make displaying of affection illegal just to make the more prudish among us feel comfortable? WHY??
I qualified my stand on why I do not agree with homosexuality, per the OP's request allowing me the right to do so . I also clarified that i do not hate a person or group but I have reasons for finding some lifestyle choices , homosexuality included , abberrant and dangerous from independent published data reflecting current reality here in the U.S. This information stands on its own, and i dont wish to get into the periphial habits of the homosexual community which you have brought up. Thank you though for your contribution.
You have not answered the highlighted question. Not from me, nor from Whitney. Now that at least two people have asked you that, please come up with a clear answer.
Quote from: Stevil on January 16, 2012, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
1. They would be counselled in an effort to exit a lifestyle that has been proven to be very very dangerous to their health and life .
2. Im not the one who dresses a homosexual person, nor do I tell them how to dress, nor are they accountable to me ; just as you can tell when a person is drunk by their appearance, behaviour, and talk... you can usually tell if people in public are homosexual . And no..it is not wrong to discern another since we all do that every single day of our lives .
Does this satisfy your inquiry, or, do you have some more questions which id be pleased to answer ?
Yes I have more questions, thanks for the offer.
With regards to 2.
You had previously stated that you don't want people parading their sexuallity in public and that you think it should be kept private.
But your answer to 2 shows that you recognise that in some circumstances it is unavoidable. Struggling Atheist has a gay-dar and can spot a gay person who is simply being themselves.
So what I am asking is, do you think gay people need to become someone else in order to stop Struggling Atheist's gay-dar going off?
So that Struggling Atheist can feel more comfortable in public places, being ignorant of who is gay and who is not.
Regarding your specific question, its up to an individual person if they want to become someone else . I think we have ALL become someone else since the time we were children --- seems we all go thru life-cycles (even as adults) dont you think ?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 17, 2012, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 16, 2012, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
1. They would be counselled in an effort to exit a lifestyle that has been proven to be very very dangerous to their health and life .
2. Im not the one who dresses a homosexual person, nor do I tell them how to dress, nor are they accountable to me ; just as you can tell when a person is drunk by their appearance, behaviour, and talk... you can usually tell if people in public are homosexual . And no..it is not wrong to discern another since we all do that every single day of our lives .
Does this satisfy your inquiry, or, do you have some more questions which id be pleased to answer ?
Yes I have more questions, thanks for the offer.
With regards to 2.
You had previously stated that you don't want people parading their sexuallity in public and that you think it should be kept private.
But your answer to 2 shows that you recognise that in some circumstances it is unavoidable. Struggling Atheist has a gay-dar and can spot a gay person who is simply being themselves.
So what I am asking is, do you think gay people need to become someone else in order to stop Struggling Atheist's gay-dar going off?
So that Struggling Atheist can feel more comfortable in public places, being ignorant of who is gay and who is not.
Regarding your specific question, its up to an individual person if they want to become someone else . I think we have ALL become someone else since the time we were children --- seems we all go thru life-cycles (even as adults) dont you think ?
You still haven't made a case for why a homosexual should want to be someone else.
Please go back to your premise that it's wrong, or deviant or whatever and settle that first.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 17, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Please go back to your premise that it's wrong, or deviant or whatever and settle that first.
Struggling Atheist...just to emphasize the importance of the above as it relates to this 'debate' and allowable conduct on HAF; if you do not want to logically address (keyword LOGICALLY, don't care what your beliefs are if they aren't supported by reason) that which is quoted above then you lost your privileged to discuss homosexuality on this forum. You've been allowed to continue posting to see if you'd actually back up your previous statements with an attempt at reason and have failed to do so; HAF is not a place where people are allowed to give emotional rants about why they don't like groups due to race, gender or ethnicity so we require that the person either stop promoting that view or become the first person to actually logically justify their bigotry (and yes it is bigotry, like it or not). If you ignore this direction then you'll be banned for a week to think about how you are choosing to conduct yourself both here and as a human being.
Struggling Atheist ... I have friends, co-workers, and family members who are gay. You know what? If they had to hide who they are some of them would be suicidal. Is that really what you want? And you haven't answered the question about lesbians, who don't engage in the so-called dangerous behavior you're talking about. You also haven't addressed the fact that AIDS in gay populations has gone down tremendously due to safer sex practices (condoms mostly). I believe the highest incidence of new cases are in straight women whose partners give it to them. How is a woman to know that their man is cheating? Whether with women or with men? I wish you could sit down and talk with some gay people, or bi, or transgendered. You'll find that they're just like everyone else. They have loves, fears, strengths and weaknesses, just like all the rest of us. Imagine if you had to hide who you are, not because of your choice, but because society wouldn't accept you. How would you feel? Bossed around? Controlled? Oppressed? Guess what? Oppression is not nice. In fact, I find it one of the worst crimes of humanity. Women, African Americans, gays ... all of us have experienced oppression at some point in our lives. It's evil. It's destructive. It limits the growth of a society. I used to work in a company that had a policy of valueing differences. Not tolerating it. Not putting up with it. VALUEING it. You know why? Because differences lead to innovation.
Quote from: Whitney on January 17, 2012, 03:38:39 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 17, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Please go back to your premise that it's wrong, or deviant or whatever and settle that first.
Struggling Atheist...just to emphasize the importance of the above as it relates to this 'debate' and allowable conduct on HAF; if you do not want to logically address (keyword LOGICALLY, don't care what your beliefs are if they aren't supported by reason) that which is quoted above then you lost your privileged to discuss homosexuality on this forum. You've been allowed to continue posting to see if you'd actually back up your previous statements with an attempt at reason and have failed to do so; HAF is not a place where people are allowed to give emotional rants about why they don't like groups due to race, gender or ethnicity so we require that the person either stop promoting that view or become the first person to actually logically justify their bigotry (and yes it is bigotry, like it or not). If you ignore this direction then you'll be banned for a week to think about how you are choosing to conduct yourself both here and as a human being.
Totally fair and reasonable. Let's see what happens (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pashnit.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Flurker-eating-popcorn.gif&hash=80e9bd4a6f88bef75de7759d9187fd116d25a640)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 17, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 17, 2012, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 16, 2012, 07:18:26 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 16, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
1. They would be counselled in an effort to exit a lifestyle that has been proven to be very very dangerous to their health and life .
2. Im not the one who dresses a homosexual person, nor do I tell them how to dress, nor are they accountable to me ; just as you can tell when a person is drunk by their appearance, behaviour, and talk... you can usually tell if people in public are homosexual . And no..it is not wrong to discern another since we all do that every single day of our lives .
Does this satisfy your inquiry, or, do you have some more questions which id be pleased to answer ?
Yes I have more questions, thanks for the offer.
With regards to 2.
You had previously stated that you don't want people parading their sexuallity in public and that you think it should be kept private.
But your answer to 2 shows that you recognise that in some circumstances it is unavoidable. Struggling Atheist has a gay-dar and can spot a gay person who is simply being themselves.
So what I am asking is, do you think gay people need to become someone else in order to stop Struggling Atheist's gay-dar going off?
So that Struggling Atheist can feel more comfortable in public places, being ignorant of who is gay and who is not.
Regarding your specific question, its up to an individual person if they want to become someone else . I think we have ALL become someone else since the time we were children --- seems we all go thru life-cycles (even as adults) dont you think ?
You still haven't made a case for why a homosexual should want to be someone else.
Please go back to your premise that it's wrong, or deviant or whatever and settle that first.
I dont feel i 'need to make a case' , as I have indicated that it was my opinion and have shared as much as i want to on the issue. I could write a book on this much belabored social issue , but Ive contributed as much as I want to here . Yes, Im of the personal impression that Homosexuality is in fact wrong, deviant for society and individuals....with statistics showing the past and present harm. There are also other social issues of today which I believe to be equally or more devastating. Please dont put yourself in a querulous position vis-a-vis my opinion on Homosexuality. Thanks.
Quote from: Whitney on January 17, 2012, 03:38:39 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 17, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Please go back to your premise that it's wrong, or deviant or whatever and settle that first.
Struggling Atheist...just to emphasize the importance of the above as it relates to this 'debate' and allowable conduct on HAF; if you do not want to logically address (keyword LOGICALLY, don't care what your beliefs are if they aren't supported by reason) that which is quoted above then you lost your privileged to discuss homosexuality on this forum. You've been allowed to continue posting to see if you'd actually back up your previous statements with an attempt at reason and have failed to do so; HAF is not a place where people are allowed to give emotional rants about why they don't like groups due to race, gender or ethnicity so we require that the person either stop promoting that view or become the first person to actually logically justify their bigotry (and yes it is bigotry, like it or not). If you ignore this direction then you'll be banned for a week to think about how you are choosing to conduct yourself both here and as a human being.
I appreciate what youve said here, and, I did take the time to post facts from reliable independent Sources which I listed as to the current outcome of Homosexuality in American Society to back my opinion that it is a dangerous social issue both to the Participants as well as to the U.S. Nation ... and I did so out of great concern . There are many Atheists who dont agree with Homosexuality , but perhaps most do. I hope im given the forum right to vehemently disagree with a particular issue being discussed ; it is not nor ever has been my intention to purposely cause division in this Forum ... but to express my opinions as others have . Being sensitive and respectful to what you said above, I shall refrain from contributing to this particular thread as its gotton to be rather belabored --- perhaps I shared too much in any case. Thanks.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 03:05:58 PM
Please dont put yourself in a querulous position vis-a-vis my opinion on Homosexuality. Thanks.
Why shouldn't we, if we disagree?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 03:05:58 PM
I dont feel i 'need to make a case' , as I have indicated that it was my opinion and have shared as much as i want to on the issue. I could write a book on this much belabored social issue ,
A very very very short paragraph perhaps?
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 03:05:58 PM. Please dont put yourself in a querulous position vis-a-vis my opinion on Homosexuality. Thanks.
Liver flukes and you, I suppose we need to know both.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 18, 2012, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 03:05:58 PM
Please dont put yourself in a querulous position vis-a-vis my opinion on Homosexuality. Thanks.
Why shouldn't we, if we disagree?
If we turned our eyes from every minority that wanted emancipation from prejudice, then where would we be now?
The data you posted doesn't add to your position in anyway. You still failed to make a good conclusive statement based on it.
One issue that could be easily recognised as harmful by both atheists and theists alike is the incidence of STDs
QuoteOver 20,000 new cases of HIV/AIDS are diagnosed each year in the U.S.
* 62% of those cases reported before 1996 have died (319,000 Americans).
* Women now represent 30% of new HIV/AIDS cases reported.
* 75% of the cases are from heterosexual sex.
* 3 out of 5 Americans with HIV were infected as teens.
* HIV infection rates are 10 times higher when STDs are not treated properly.
With that in mind (feel free to look up the incidence rates of other STDs), please clarify as to why you think homosexuality is harmful.
If you think it's because your god or whatever says so, then spit it out already ::) If you think there are more societal reasons rather than medical, then elaborate.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 03:20:41 PM
I did take the time to post facts from reliable independent Sources which I listed as to the current outcome of Homosexuality in American Society to back my opinion that it is a dangerous social issue both to the Participants as well as to the U.S. Nation
No, you did not...and why it didn't apply has been explained by multiple people.
I don't want to hear another word from you trying to justify your homophobic beliefs unless it's with actual contemporary facts that pertain to homosexuality and not just sex in general.
The best thing you could have done was just read my message, note it mentally, and not post further on the topic; rather than implying that everyone else is being irrational when it's really you.
The ice is only getting thinner...I suggest you do the bolded part of my message if you are not able to comply with the request to present and actual rational argument that is based in reality.
It's very obvious that you have allowed extreme fundamentalist christian views to seep into your own personal belief system...I suggest that it's time for you to clean house; so to speak. Perhaps whether you believe in god or not shouldn't be the first thing to work on cleaning up.
Quote from: Whitney on January 18, 2012, 05:03:51 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 03:20:41 PM
I did take the time to post facts from reliable independent Sources which I listed as to the current outcome of Homosexuality in American Society to back my opinion that it is a dangerous social issue both to the Participants as well as to the U.S. Nation
............
It's very obvious that you have allowed extreme fundamentalist christian views to seep into your own personal belief system...I suggest that it's time for you to clean house; so to speak. Perhaps whether you believe in god or not shouldn't be the first thing to work on cleaning up.
I have to agree with you for the most part because in my very first introductory post in this Forum, I explained I had Christian friends who are apart of my circle of friends in addition to atheists of varying levels (soft and militant) . Ive also indicated subsequently, where i am in my current life journey (limbo for the most part) . I dont know if ive reached the point of 'cleaning house' as you say..but ive got the dustmop out and hot water is boiling on the stove as I continue to enjoy being in this very diverse Forum which contains people on all levels of seeking truth. From what i can determine, they range from people who are sympathetic toward atheism to those who denounce atheism --- Im somewhere in-between . I trust this is an acceptable position to be in where this Forum Administration is concerned. Thanks.
Being "inbetween" in regard to atheism isn't the problem.
Dodging questions and not backing up your statements properly, however, is. It would be just as wrong coming from me or Tank or anyone else as it is when coming from you.
I think that having a diverse circle of friends (including theists) is a good thing. If nothing else, it keeps you honest. But I have to say that I think if you are interested in coming out of limbo, so to speak, the first thing you need to do is know your own mind. Try to strip away the things that people have told you like "homosexuals are deviants" or whatever, and start asking important questions like "why." Think logically about the actual reasons why homosexuality might be considered "deviant". No fair using appeals to authority like "because everyone says so" or "because the bible says so" because those arguments are weak, logically speaking. Everyone could say that the world is a peach pit floating in a jelly jar, that doesn't make it so. Start from the bottom up, and think. I think you're trying to do that by talking about the medical "dangers" of homosexuality, but I think that if you look at it with an unbiased eye, homosexuality isn't really more dangerous than heterosexuality, and in any case, just because something is dangerous to the individual doesn't make it immoral. It's dangerous to ride a motorcycle, but it's not immoral, right? Start from the bottom up, and try to think logically about what makes something immoral, and then pair that to homosexuality and see if you come up with a match. I've literally NEVER heard a compelling logical reason why homosexuality is immoral. I'm arrogant enough to think that if you really think it through from a logical standpoint, you won't come up with much either.
Try it, you might like it.
Quote from: Ali on January 18, 2012, 05:48:37 PM
I think that having a diverse circle of friends (including theists) is a good thing. If nothing else, it keeps you honest. But I have to say that I think if you are interested in coming out of limbo, so to speak, the first thing you need to do is know your own mind. Try to strip away the things that people have told you like "homosexuals are deviants" or whatever, and start asking important questions like "why." Think logically about the actual reasons why homosexuality might be considered "deviant". No fair using appeals to authority like "because everyone says so" or "because the bible says so" because those arguments are weak, logically speaking. Everyone could say that the world is a peach pit floating in a jelly jar, that doesn't make it so. Start from the bottom up, and think. I think you're trying to do that by talking about the medical "dangers" of homosexuality, but I think that if you look at it with an unbiased eye, homosexuality isn't really more dangerous than heterosexuality, and in any case, just because something is dangerous to the individual doesn't make it immoral. It's dangerous to ride a motorcycle, but it's not immoral, right? Start from the bottom up, and try to think logically about what makes something immoral, and then pair that to homosexuality and see if you come up with a match. I've literally NEVER heard a compelling logical reason why homosexuality is immoral. I'm arrogant enough to think that if you really think it through from a logical standpoint, you won't come up with much either.
Try it, you might like it.
Thanks . I appreciate your insight . I think right now Im a FreeThinking Explorer who sees difficulties with the Atheist AND Christian positions . As for the social issues of our day, Im hardly one to go along with the consensus in society .
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:14:03 PM
As for the social issues of our day, Im hardly one to go along with the consensus in society .
Congratulating yourself on that hardly makes personal bigotry a good basis for your position on social issues, which is all you've offered up so far for your reasons for considering homosexuality deviant. The medical evidence you offered actually applied to heterosexuals, altho you were making no argument regarding their deviance so I'm sure you can see how that was confusing.
If personal bigotry is all you've got, then fine, I'm sure many people have something that just hits one of their ick factors too hard to bear. For me it's things like S&M, B&D, which I find stomach turning. But I don't suggest people who enjoy such things stay in the closet, or not dress or act any way they wish in public (bearing in mind such common sense things as existing laws about public nudity, or harrassment, etc), or not be acknowledged in popular public venues such as TV and movies and music. Nor do I suggest that because some might not practice safe sex that all are therefore a danger to the entire nation and, among other things, should be persuaded to give up their lifestyle. I'm not even sure I'd call S&M or B&D a true lifestyle.
And if I were going suggest such things I'd make sure I could back it up with evidence that actually applied to people who practice S&M or B&D, and showed that as a group they created a demonstrable danger to non-S&M/B&D people around them, and that this danger creation was confined to them -- that is, no non-S&M/B&D people created the same or similar dangers, which might then just be considered part of life. And if I couldn't do this (and I'm very certain I couldn't) I'd accept that my beliefs where informed by my personal bigotry and keep any suggestions I might have about interfereing with, or altering, other peoples lives off the table. But that's just me.
sodomy is higher knowledge
licking and sucking is art
the body has parts and does things
gay men can be statistically more fun for progressive individuals than straight men
being gay is like being atheist which again is like being a smoker or drinker, fat or thin:
No guarranty of WORTH
you have a certain problem that needs treatment if you care to disagree with what other people do for sex, religion or drugs disregarding the other features present( or not)
that problem is called "get a life"
those who stick their noses in the lifes of others do so because they have no life of their own worth sticking to
Quote from: pytheas on February 03, 2012, 07:26:40 PM
those who stick their noses in the lifes of others do so because they have no life of their own worth sticking to
1+
Quote from: Tom62 on February 04, 2012, 06:22:09 AM
Quote from: pytheas on February 03, 2012, 07:26:40 PM
those who stick their noses in the lifes of others do so because they have no life of their own worth sticking to
1+
I suppose you could fit all manner of evil motivations under that.
There is the What the Fk is wrong with being gay thread.
I'd like a "what the fk is wrong with people with a problem with gays" thread.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 05, 2011, 09:37:44 PM
As I said that I am a gay man and I had a lot of negative thoughts about my homosexuality when I been believe in God, but not anymore.
I am a member in Arabic Atheist forum and when I talked about my homosexuality there was a members didn't like that at all and they even asked me to don't reply for any subject that they post and they will do the same with my subjects. anyway that make me know that even Atheist people has negative view for homosexual but that doesn't mean because they are Atheist, Atheism it doesn't tell you how to live or what you should do in your life, it is just cares about God existence.
So what I want to know here is what you think about homosexuality??
Thinking atheists don't have a problem with homosexuality for the same reason that they don't have a problem with people who are left-handed or people who have green eyes or people who wear a size 8 shoe.
If you want to understand christianity's (and islam's) hostility towards homosexuality, you must remember the core business of religion. And that is............to separate fools from their money.
When you bear this fact in mind, you can see not only their reason for spreading hatred of gay people, but also the reason for their stance on contraception and abortion. See, it's all about maximising attendances at church and hence contributions to the collection plate.
Gay people don't reproduce at the same rate as straight people. This means fewer offspring handing over their hard-earned to Father Fiddler on Sunday. Therefore HOMOSEXUALITY IS EVIL!!
People who use contraceptives don't reproduce at the same rate as those who don't use contraceptives. This means fewer offspring handing over their hard-earned to Father Fiddler on Sunday. Therefore CONTRACEPTION IS EVIL!!
People who have abortions don't reproduce at the same rate as those who don't have abortions. This means fewer offspring handing over their hard-earned to Father Fiddler on Sunday. Therefore ABORTION IS EVIL!!
And while christianity and islam are spreading their hatred and misery in pursuit of even more tax-free cash, gay people continue to suicide at rates above the population at large.
Have you ever wondered why you never see any religious crazies protesting about people eating shellfish? After all, they should be. It's right there in the "good" book. It's because
there's no money in stopping people from eating shellfish.
Holyshit, Ivan. That was the most A+ post ever! And I honestly agree with you on the reason catholics claim birth control and homosexuality to be so 'evil.' Because the less idiot kids these religious people pop out, the less religious followers. The less money churches and religious organixations make from the fools.
I cringe everytime I see a catholic family with 4 kids, and the mother is pregnant. They all wear their little gold saint necklaces too. It's nauseating.
Thankyou Sweetie. You are very kind.
It seems that, for some, reproduction is a competition and the one with the most babies wins.
It is understandable from a Darwinian perspective, but on a planet with >7 billion people and finite resources, we need to rise above our base instincts and soon.
Quote from: Ivan Tudor C McHock on February 25, 2012, 06:09:32 AM
It's because there's no money in stopping people from eating shellfish.
No, good church-going fishermen would potentially lose money on that, bringing us back to "Less for Father Fiddler"
Power and money... Pretty much everything human-made is about power and money.
And sex.
Pretty much everything man made is about power and money and sex, and you could argue that power and money are also man-made inventions to get sex. But only sex that reproduces, apparently.
Quote from: Ali on February 25, 2012, 02:46:36 PM
And sex.
Pretty much everything man made is about power and money and sex, and you could argue that power and money are also man-made inventions to get sex. But only sex that reproduces, apparently.
Ha?
Quote from: Ali on February 25, 2012, 02:46:36 PM
And sex.
Pretty much everything man made is about power and money and sex, and you could argue that power and money are also man-made inventions to get sex. But only sex that reproduces, apparently.
Sex isnt about reproducing...especially if you are same sex couple or use bc.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 25, 2012, 05:08:10 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 25, 2012, 02:46:36 PM
And sex.
Pretty much everything man made is about power and money and sex, and you could argue that power and money are also man-made inventions to get sex. But only sex that reproduces, apparently.
Sex isnt about reproducing...especially if you are same sex couple or use bc.
That's why the church doesn't like it.
Quote from: Ali on February 25, 2012, 05:09:28 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 25, 2012, 05:08:10 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 25, 2012, 02:46:36 PM
And sex.
Pretty much everything man made is about power and money and sex, and you could argue that power and money are also man-made inventions to get sex. But only sex that reproduces, apparently.
Sex isnt about reproducing...especially if you are same sex couple or use bc.
That's why the church doesn't like it.
It's odd. I don't understand the Catholic logic (third or 4th time I've typed this today, I think, LOL) behind the whole reproduction thing. They don't want people using birth control, because it interferes with reproduction. They don't want people engaging in any kind of sex including homosexual sex that interferes with reproduction (and is apparently "disordered"; how, I don't know). At the same time, though... the Catholic church WILL:
- Marry a young straight couple, where one or both of them is infertile and can't have children... because there's always that "chance" God might surprise them.
- Marry a middle aged or elderly straight couple, when one or both of them is infertile due to age... because the "marital union" isn't "disordered", somehow.
*shrug* It's odd to me, but it doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't see the Catholic church as the be all, end all of marriage. Secular authorities as well as several Christian pastors/church groups WILL marry gay people if they want to be married, here in Canada. I wish it were the same in the USA. I really hope it will me. As for whether I'd want the Catholic church to marry me, which they still won't do here -- no, I wouldn't want to force an institution that strongly disliked me to marry me to my partner, simply because the law told them they had to if it ever came to that.... and if or when I marry, I don't necessarily want much of a religious aspect to the ceremony either, although that'll be a compromise, given my gf's a liberal Anglican. So there ya have it. *shrugs again*
Part of the Catholic church's issue is that protected sex can lead to unwanted pregnancy (because it isn't 100% effective), which can lead to abortion (which they term as murder).
They think masturbation can build up a person's desire for sex which they deem as a precursor for unwanted pregnancy.
But I don't understand the issue they have with gay sex. Probably because of some passage in their scripture, so they deem it as dis-ordered and unnatural.
Quote from: Stevil on February 25, 2012, 07:55:13 PM
But I don't understand the issue they have with gay sex. Probably because of some passage in their scripture, so they deem it as dis-ordered and unnatural.
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.From Leviticus 20:13. So yeah, scripture...as always. Can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for wearing mixed fiber clothing or working on a Sunday, though. How convenient, to be able to pick and choose the parts of your religion you want to comply with. ::)
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 08:57:39 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 25, 2012, 07:55:13 PM
But I don't understand the issue they have with gay sex. Probably because of some passage in their scripture, so they deem it as dis-ordered and unnatural.
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
From Leviticus 20:13. So yeah, scripture...as always. Can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for wearing mixed fiber clothing or working on a Sunday, though. How convenient, to be able to pick and choose the parts of your religion you want to comply with. ::)
In all fairness, I can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for being gay, either. Discriminating against us, objecting to us, wanting rights ignored, sure. But most Catholics have at least dropped the stones. :P (as though that's something to be proud of when everything else stands.)
Matthew Shepard ring any bells? I don't know if the fuckers who killed him were Catholic or not, but there certainly have been incidences of violence against homosexuals fueled by that same piece of scripture. I guess that's my point. No one stands outside of shopping malls, screaming slurs at people wearing polyester. No one stands outside of the 24 hour grocery store on a Sunday morning, telling the people going in to work that they are sinning. But people do stand on street corners with signs that say shit like "God hates fags", and all these bullshit prescriptions come from the same book of the Bible, some of them within a few sentences of each other.
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 09:27:03 PM
Matthew Shepard ring any bells? I don't know if the fuckers who killed him were Catholic or not, but there certainly have been incidences of violence against homosexuals fueled by that same piece of scripture. I guess that's my point. No one stands outside of shopping malls, screaming slurs at people wearing polyester. No one stands outside of the 24 hour grocery store on a Sunday morning, telling the people going in to work that they are sinning. But people do stand on street corners with signs that say shit like "God hates fags", and all these bullshit prescriptions come from the same book of the Bible, some of them within a few sentences of each other.
Yes, absolutely. And it's insane that people would be hypocritical, and even moreso that they'd be hateful. Being gay attracts a level of hate and disgust from some religious people that isn't paralleled by anything. It's horrible. Matthew Shepard more than rings bells for me. I was in 9th grade when he was killed, and I'd just told some of my friends very quietly that I was gay. I was amazed what what insanity befell him. It was brutal, hearing what happened to him.
I suppose we should be thankful that people are so inconsistently hateful like that, but for the life of me I'll never understand why people choose that one particular verse to harp on. Why not fix on love thy neighbor, or treat others the way you want to be treated? Why does hate seem to come to some of us more naturally than love or acceptance?
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 09:50:43 PM
I suppose we should be thankful that people are so inconsistently hateful like that, but for the life of me I'll never understand why people choose that one particular verse to harp on. Why not fix on love thy neighbor, or treat others the way you want to be treated? Why does hate seem to come to some of us more naturally than love or acceptance?
Honestly, I believe that at the core of hate, fear exists. Fear of the unknown, mostly. Fear of change. Fear of being wrong. Fear of loss of control. Fear of an 'out group' somehow infiltrating their 'in group', when really we're all just humans in the same group. It's sad. Hate is just fear amped up to extraordinarily high levels. They don't call it homo 'phobia' for nothing, that's for sure.
I agree with you, though. Why NOT focus on our similarities, focus on treating one another well, as we'd like to be treated? Is it because these people think that if they did that, they'd 'lose' something? Well, they would. They'd lose some of their ignorance, for one thing. They'd lose their judgemental attitude if they befriended and loved others, NOT to convert them, but to genuinely care for them. They'd see that there's not much difference between them and the people they used to be afraid of.
How do I know? I know because I used to be one of them. I was ignorant and had a lot of internalized homophobia. I was Christian when I was younger, and I had honestly been taught to prettymuch avoid people who aren't like me, taught that gays and lesbians might be OK people, but they were hellbound sinners who'd drag me with them. I was taught that they were weird, or crazy, that atheists and skeptics were to be avoided. The first time I ever went on a date with a girl, I was 16. I was terrified of what I was doing, terrified of who would see us, terrified of why I even was the way I was. I didn't want to feel that confused. I didn't want to think all these people who weren't like me were evil. I didn't REALLY believe they were, they were just strangers to me because I'd never been able to get to know them before.
I'm so, so damned glad I was able to break out of that mindset, and get to know people for who they really are. I'm glad my views have changed. I've said before, and I'll say it again, that I'm a very different person at 26 than I was at 16. I'm glad my mind's more open. I'm glad I've met people from all sorts of cultures, beliefs, orientations, and political views. It's a wonderful feeling, being able to change your mind and your heart, and then DOING IT.
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 08:57:39 PM
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
So, if this is the biblical reference, what's their problem with lesbians?
Societies attitude causes gays young and old to suicide.
Sometimes parents from conservative country communities ask why the rate of suicide is so high in their communities.
I saw a documentary (a real one, on proper TV) about Ottoman sultans. There was the killing of all your siblings on gaining power which seemed a reasonable thing. You get a harem with hundreds of wives and they are kept in isolation, they can peek through a grill and watch the goings on of the court if bored. Eunuchs to guard your wives seems sensible too, who else could you trust? The thing I don't get was some old woman was put in with the wives at night to stop the Sappho stuff....Why? I don't get it why would he ban that? He could have his own grill to keep an eye on what was going on, and don't be to quick in saying I'm being a perverted Pudding, THIS WAS PRE TV!
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 09:50:43 PM
I suppose we should be thankful that people are so inconsistently hateful like that, but for the life of me I'll never understand why people choose that one particular verse to harp on.
Never? It's really not complicated. It's about money.
Quote from: Traveler on February 26, 2012, 12:42:54 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 08:57:39 PM
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
So, if this is the biblical reference, what's their problem with lesbians?
There are many Biblical passages which condemn homosexuality directly or by inference (sometimes referring to "sodomites" or "the sin of Sodom") but as far as I know there's only one which directly addresses lesbianism. It's from that old sweetheart Paul, in Romans 1:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:26&version=KJV), and comes in a diatribe "against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness."
Quote 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Paul was a real master--here he manages to condemn homosexuality while including a nice dose of sexism on the side: The natural use of women is to satisfy the lusts of men.
Quote from: Amicale on February 25, 2012, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 08:57:39 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 25, 2012, 07:55:13 PM
But I don't understand the issue they have with gay sex. Probably because of some passage in their scripture, so they deem it as dis-ordered and unnatural.
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
From Leviticus 20:13. So yeah, scripture...as always. Can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for wearing mixed fiber clothing or working on a Sunday, though. How convenient, to be able to pick and choose the parts of your religion you want to comply with. ::)
In all fairness, I can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for being gay, either. Discriminating against us, objecting to us, wanting rights ignored, sure. But most Catholics have at least dropped the stones. :P (as though that's something to be proud of when everything else stands.)
Uh... People still get stoned in the middle east.
People are still beaten or killed for beimg gay all over the world, so..... :(
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 26, 2012, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: Amicale on February 25, 2012, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 25, 2012, 08:57:39 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 25, 2012, 07:55:13 PM
But I don't understand the issue they have with gay sex. Probably because of some passage in their scripture, so they deem it as dis-ordered and unnatural.
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
From Leviticus 20:13. So yeah, scripture...as always. Can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for wearing mixed fiber clothing or working on a Sunday, though. How convenient, to be able to pick and choose the parts of your religion you want to comply with. ::)
In all fairness, I can't recall the last time I saw a Catholic stoning someone for being gay, either. Discriminating against us, objecting to us, wanting rights ignored, sure. But most Catholics have at least dropped the stones. :P (as though that's something to be proud of when everything else stands.)
Uh... People still get stoned in the middle east.
People are still beaten or killed for beimg gay all over the world, so..... :(
Yes, I know. I was referring specifically to the Catholic church, since Philo referred to them first. It's entirely true that people in other denominations or religions are full of hatred and will kill someone, as you said. I was pointing out one group (Catholics) that was not doing that as far as I'm aware, and then I pointed out that although they weren't killing people, they were certainly discriminating in different ways.
I was on facebook, and found this image. It made my evening. ;D Thank you, Mr. Eastwood!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/419376_396189867073743_122256581133741_1531201_912138518_n.jpg)
We need more Republicans like Clint.
I feel a lot of it is about needing a scapegoat to blame society's ills on. People often turn to religion out of desperation, and when that religion tells you that you're actually one of the good guys and it's that evil homosexual over there who is corrupting society, then a person doesn't have to take any responsibility for their problems. Instead, it's all that homosexual's fault! Or the Jews. Or the blacks. Or the illegal immigrants from Mexico. Religion is not the only authoritative system to stigmatize a minority to distract from the real problems, because it's quite effective.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 25, 2012, 06:28:35 AM
Holyshit, Ivan. That was the most A+ post ever! And I honestly agree with you on the reason catholics claim birth control and homosexuality to be so 'evil.' Because the less idiot kids these religious people pop out, the less religious followers. The less money churches and religious organixations make from the fools.
I cringe everytime I see a catholic family with 4 kids, and the mother is pregnant. They all wear their little gold saint necklaces too. It's nauseating.
I know I'm quite late to the game on this thread, and the post I'm replying to is buried a couple pages back, but I just wanted to point out that I was once one of those idiot kids in one of those idiot families that make you cringe. But I love my parents and know they were just trying to do what they thought best for our family. I disagree with their church now, but I don't fault my parents for buying it, I blame the church for selling it.
I just hope more and more people do like I've done and stop believing the salesmen.
As for how I feel about homosexuality? It shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Let people do what they will as long as it isn't hurting anyone else.
My Dad is one of "those" Catholics. He never expresses a hatred for gay people, he just denies that they exist.
Yes. Literally. My Dad just denies that gay people exist.
For instance, my best (male) friend is gay. We've been friends since highschool and Dad used to ALWAYS tell me that my friend had a crush on me. I've literally had this exact conversation with Dad about a dozen times over the years.
Dad: Jim is a nice guy
Me: Yep, he is! That's why he's my friend.
Dad: I think he has a crush on you.
Me: Dad. He's gay. I've told you a million times, he's gay. He says he's gay. He dates men. He's gay.
Dad: Nooo... I don't think so...
Me: Dad, I can 100% definitively guarantee you that he is only attracted to other men.
Dad: nooo.... I think he likes you *wanders off dreamily*
It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 10, 2012, 05:25:24 AM
My Dad is one of "those" Catholics. He never expresses a hatred for gay people, he just denies that they exist.
Yes. Literally. My Dad just denies that gay people exist.
For instance, my best (male) friend is gay. We've been friends since highschool and Dad used to ALWAYS tell me that my friend had a crush on me. I've literally had this exact conversation with Dad about a dozen times over the years.
Dad: Jim is a nice guy
Me: Yep, he is! That's why he's my friend.
Dad: I think he has a crush on you.
Me: Dad. He's gay. I've told you a million times, he's gay. He says he's gay. He dates men. He's gay.
Dad: Nooo... I don't think so...
Me: Dad, I can 100% definitively guarantee you that he is only attracted to other men.
Dad: nooo.... I think he likes you *wanders off dreamily*
It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
Talk about denial!