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Pseudoscience/sham cancer treatments

Started by McQ, July 13, 2006, 01:23:32 PM

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Amor Fati

#30
Quote from: "Jassman"How is it possible for the government to know whether that person is not acting in their own best self-interest? Is this an argument against a person's right to suicide? This looks like a very slippery slope. It seems like a very easy thing for the government to abuse. In the end, every decision made by a person could potentially have to be approved by the government,  under the guise of "looking out for your best interest".

Yes, this principle of reasoning can be used to justify legislation criminalizing suicide.  It's also used to justify drug laws, drinking age, social security (and socialized medicine in canada), welfare, compulsory education, taxes for libraries, anti-pornography laws, and a whole host of social programs.
 
Of course, every possible private action also has potential, yet unlikely, public consequences as well.  So even the very basic harm principle can be used for evil.  

As far as self-interest goes, given the universality of human nature usually people can agree on at least some minimal set of actions that are almost always against one's self-interest.  And there are times in one's life (ages 0 until whenever) when it's just not likely that we'll know what's in our best interest.  These instances are completely possible to occur during adulthood, so those that support paternalism will want a government that will occasionally protect them from themselves.

Edit
My point here is only that 1) at least some paternalism is not at all unreasonable if you have the right people in government; and 2) almost all modern governments already practice a little paternalism.

Whitney

#31
I found an article about the boy mentioned on the today show:

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/st ... &ran=36452

Basically it says he is refusing chemo because it made him feel the worse and the possible long term side effects:

"Dr. Biral Amin, a radiation oncologist who practices with Oncology Associates of Virginia in Hampton Roads, said conventional cancer treatments can have severe side effects and carry long-term risks, including heart ailments, bone-growth problems and other types of cancer."

How possible these side effects are, I don't know.  The courts are currently involved in trying to force conventional treatment, he may be taken into state custody.  During the time he was undergoing alternative treatment his cancer has progressed.  The parents claim this is because natural cures take longer than conventional cures. The natural clinic he is using claims to have an 80% success rate (where are the studies?...people can claim anything).  One of the doctors interviewed said that most will combine conventional and alternative methods, if they even bother with the natural methods at all...this is probably why the clinic is able to report a good success rate, assuming they aren't just lying.

-------

In my view, this is a case of unintentional neglect on account of the parents and the clinic (who may be intentionally neglecting to promote a good treatment).  The parents have allowed their emotions to take hold and in doing so researched alternative methods, took the claims at face value, and now see it as some sort of miracle cure.

When we think while letting our emotions take hold our decisions typically aren't very rational. (After all, emotionally based beliefs are why we have so many religious people.)  But, baring fanatics, irrational religious beliefs don't kill or hurt people physically.  So, the question remains, on what grounds does government have the right to step in and protect people, especially those viewed as minors, from themselves?

In this particular case, the boy definitely wants to survive.  He just happens to think that this can be done by completely replacing chemo with alternative methods.  What the family is doing with alternative medicine has a parallels with the Christian Science church and their use of prayer as an alternative method to proper medical care.  Wiki

How much influence do parents have on the way teenagers come to their own decisions?  This is an important question, as it determines if teenagers who are still under the care of adults really are capable of making independent rational decisions. I would say that since many teenagers, whether thy admit to it or not, look up to their parents that parents do have quite a bit of influence over the decisions made by teenagers.  So, it could easily be said that it's not a case of protecting the teenager from himself but protecting him from the misguided influence of his parents.

Still, regardless of if what I've said is true or not, how should such situations be handled?  Removing the teenager from his parent's care isn't going to solve the problem and will only cause additional emotional strain on the patient.  Even under state care the teenager is still very capable of refusing treatment and we shouldn't force them into medical care as if they are prisoners.  My solution would be better education on how these alternative treatments are not sufficient in helping someone get better.  Although, some alternative treatments may be helpful compliments to proper medical care...even if it is just a placebo affect.  Maybe if someone was sent by the government to simply sit down with the family and discuss why their decisions may cause a lot more harm then good, they would go back to the proven method.  By using my solution, we would have to accept that there would still be some people who would use the alternative methods, but I think in most cases it would change their minds.  Education is the key, once people are properly educated they will be less likely to make, what I would call, a stupid decision.

Asmodean Prime

#32
Quote from: "Amor Fati"Edit:  Theoretically, age shouldn't matter at all, though it does in our laws.  Imagine if a 30 year old with severe autism refuses painfull yet successfull treatment.  Since our laws require specific boundaries these issues of legal and moral responsibility are almost impossible to resolve, and the effect of the polarizing nature of politics.

Actually, I think most state laws are written to reflect the concept of "competancy", rather than age, when it comes to decision-making.  Hence, anyone at any age, judged to be incompetent in making decisions may have it assigned to someone else by court order.  In some cases, the courts may decide that the parents are not making decisions in the child's best interests, and assign that aurhority to someone else.  In the example of the 30 year old, that would be fairly easy to decide.  Although not perfect, I think this is probably the best system available, when utilized properly.

Amor Fati

#33
Quote from: "Chris"
Quote from: "Amor Fati"Edit:  Theoretically, age shouldn't matter at all, though it does in our laws.  Imagine if a 30 year old with severe autism refuses painfull yet successfull treatment.  Since our laws require specific boundaries these issues of legal and moral responsibility are almost impossible to resolve, and the effect of the polarizing nature of politics.

Actually, I think most state laws are written to reflect the concept of "competancy", rather than age, when it comes to decision-making.  Hence, anyone at any age, judged to be incompetent in making decisions may have it assigned to someone else by court order.  In some cases, the courts may decide that the parents are not making decisions in the child's best interests, and assign that aurhority to someone else.  In the example of the 30 year old, that would be fairly easy to decide.  Although not perfect, I think this is probably the best system available, when utilized properly.
Maybe i watch too much Law and Order, but you're right, the result of many levels of state laws is exactly as you describe.  

The examples of disorders that could possibly effect our rationality are much larger than we've been talking about here.  Everything from seeminly random and rare brain tumors to an hyper-active thyriod can cause serious changes in the way we make decisions.

Big Mac

#34
Hmmm. I hate to sound callous but maybe this is nature's way of removing another foolish genetic strain from us? I'm sorry to be cruel but I was thinking about it at work. This kid is either really desperate (which I don't blame him) or really stupid. Maybe if he goes with herbal treatment and dies, it may be for the good of mankind to remove him from breeding. And maybe it will bring more negative light toward Herbal medicine to eventually have it banned outright.

I know I sound rather evil and cruel right now but honestly think about it. If you honestly fall for this shit you're probably too dumb to realize what you're doing with your life. Yes Chemo sucks and is painful, as most other surgical procedures tend to be. I'd rather have those POSSIBLE side effects than die from the preventable one that is going on here and now.

And I wish the state could go back to sterilizing dumb people, but then again, who would make my fries piping hot? Sorry if I sound mean but I had to deal with an idiot at work and I've lost whatever little sympathy I had for Mankind's dumber specimens.
Quote from: "PoopShoot"And what if pigs shit candy?

Jassman

#35
Quote from: "Big Mac"And maybe it will bring more negative light toward Herbal medicine to eventually have it banned outright.

Banning herbal medicine is not the answer. I believe it should be legal to put whatever you want into your own body. However, strong emphasis should be placed on educating people about the fact that herbal medicine never yields results.

Quote from: "Big Mac"If you honestly fall for this shit you're probably too dumb to realize what you're doing with your life.

Had I been raised somewhere else by different parents, maybe I would have believed in this shit. Who knows? How do you know whether it's nature or nurture that is causing this kid to make this bad choice?
[size=75]"You ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?" -Bill Hicks[/size]

[size=75]I'm drowning in the fear of gods. The more I see the less I want. I was not raised

Big Mac

#36
Quote from: "Jassman"
Quote from: "Big Mac"And maybe it will bring more negative light toward Herbal medicine to eventually have it banned outright.

Banning herbal medicine is not the answer. I believe it should be legal to put whatever you want into your own body. However, strong emphasis should be placed on educating people about the fact that herbal medicine never yields results.

Hence it is an invalid field and should be classified as Malpractice. I don't see why not banning it along the lines of back alley surgeons. Nothing good comes from them and letting them around (like Scientologists) is just detrimental to society. Herbalists should face strict laws and regulations to the point of their bankruptcy.

Quote from: "Jassman"
Quote from: "Big Mac"If you honestly fall for this shit you're probably too dumb to realize what you're doing with your life.

Had I been raised somewhere else by different parents, maybe I would have believed in this shit. Who knows? How do you know whether it's nature or nurture that is causing this kid to make this bad choice?

Either way, it's Herbalists who are killing the kid willing. They are evil for this very reason and for helping perpetuate stupidity in our society. For this, they deserve very very bad things to happen to them.
Quote from: "PoopShoot"And what if pigs shit candy?

TwistedPriest07

#37
Quote from: "Jassman"Banning herbal medicine is not the answer. I believe it should be legal to put whatever you want into your own body. However, strong emphasis should be placed on educating people about the fact that herbal medicine never yields results.

Does it really never yield results? Sure, you won't get anything out of it if you use herbal medicine to treat cancer, but you can certainly use herbalism for small things. I mean, I take a few daily herbal supplements for various things, and I certainly see results from taking them.

Or maybe it's all psychosomatic? Maybe it's like prayer: it's true effect is in the mind of the prayer.

Anyway, my $2x10^-2.
\<u><===8</u>/ OMG Cockboat!!!1

Whitney

#38
It depends on what supplement is being used and what they are trying to treat.  For instance, Green Tea can help with energy and maybe help a little bit with weight loss (definately not a miracle treatment for being over weight).  Things like lavendar (the smell) can help clam a patient who is undergoing stressful medical treatment.

The biggest problem with herbal and other supplements is that they are unregulated by the FDA and too many of them claim to be able to do something yet are actually harmful.

Jassman

#39
Quote from: "laetusatheos"The biggest problem with herbal and other supplements is that they are unregulated by the FDA and too many of them claim to be able to do something yet are actually harmful.

You are right about that. I think I would be extremely outnumbered in my opinion of something like the FDA though. I don't think an "FDA" or any other country's equivalent should be allowed to tell anyone what they can and can't take into their own bodies. The goal of the FDA should be, again, to educate the people and make them aware of potential consequences to certain substances. But they should not be able to stop anyone.
[size=75]"You ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?" -Bill Hicks[/size]

[size=75]I'm drowning in the fear of gods. The more I see the less I want. I was not raised

Whitney

#40
I think that if the FDA were to regulate supplements and force those companies to use realistic lables and warning labels for side affects, then the majority of people would not take anything that would only hurt them.  Thus, putting the company out of business or forcing the company to create quality safe products...there would be no need to say what could or couldn't be on the market.

silviakjell

#41
You know, this isn't really related, but in China, there are a lot of fake medicines out there. they put some official looking pills in a bottle and stick a famous name brand on, then mass produce it until the police find out. By then lots of people would have already become sick or died. So sad, but people will do anything for money. and right now there are too many of these kinds of people for the police to catch them all. So, helpful hint of the day-don't buy medicine in China except from the hospital, or a certified pharmacy!
I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure Im right.

Big Mac

#42
Across the street from me is a "Traditional Chinese Medicine College". Right there tells you it's about herbs and shit.
Quote from: "PoopShoot"And what if pigs shit candy?

MikeyV

#43
Quote from: "Jassman"Banning herbal medicine is not the answer. I believe it should be legal to put whatever you want into your own body. However, strong emphasis should be placed on educating people about the fact that herbal medicine never yields results.

You can't really make that statement. Ever been to the opthamologist and had your eyes dilated? That would be belladonna. Atropine also comes from belladonna, which is used as a nerve agent antidote.

I drink mint tea when I have bad indigestion. Tastes a whole lot better than Tums or Rolaids, and at least as effective.

I have several Aloe Vera plants around my home. They help soothe the pain from minor burns.

Marijuana can relieve the nausea from chemotherapy. It is also used as an appetite stimulant for chemo and AIDS patients, as well as relieving intra occular pressure from glaucoma.

I think many people have elevated expectations for the efficacy of herbal remedies, but that does not mean that none of them work.

I am by no stretch of the imagination an herbal remedy advocate. I still see chiropractors as barely a step above witch doctors, and don't get me started on homeopaths. But to completely dismiss herbals out of hand cuts you off from some pretty effective cures.
Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves
you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the
most awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save
it for someone you love.
   
   -- Butch Hancock.

silviakjell

#44
Yeah, not all herbs are shit. Sometimes it's better for your immune system if you use herbs, instead of overloading on man-made chemicals. Not as many side effects.
I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure Im right.