ID Questions (split from Hello. Looks like a good forum)

[Liar For Jesus]

You know if you're a theist, that really isn't a problem with us, there are a couple of regular posters here who do generally well despite having very different beliefs about the whole religious issue.

Would you mind saying why you feel that IDers might be right?

But yeah, maybe it would be best to describe a bit of your background so we can better know where you're coming from and whether or not you're a troll, intentional or not. 

I think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic'  from how everyone else describes themselves in here.  I have church friends  who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to  , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny.  Same for Dawkins and Hitchens.   As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.   

Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ;  its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing  denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists  with a vengence .  I was taught to respect others even if their ideology is different from mine , so, I hope no one will mind if i dont fly off the wall toward Theists or call them F. bombs  because some of my friends i hang with are Christians and Muslim .   While i see some things wrong with their religion, Im not prepared to act militant toward them or what they have found peace in.    I would like to know if theres a book available which counters the statements that Theists typically give when talking about I.D.  . 

[xSilverPhinx]

A good info-byte site I would recommend is http://www.talkorigins.org/ if you're looking for why creationism is wrong. It goes into biological, geological and cosmological reasons.

.I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.  

I find this to be a bit odd because have you ever considered how many places in the universe that aren't good for us to thrive?

[Liar For Jesus]

A good info-byte site I would recommend is http://www.talkorigins.org/ if you're looking for why creationism is wrong. It goes into biological, geological and cosmological reasons.

.I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.  

I find this to be a bit odd because have you ever considered how many places in the universe that aren't good for us to thrive?

Thanks for the talkorigins site. Ill try it.

I find it odd because from what science has discovered about the known universe, it is a very hostile place elsewhere ...  even within our own solar system and at relatively close distance to Earth.   

[Siz]

I haven't arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.  

Coincidence?? The planet didn't pop into homely existence for us to enjoy, we evolved to be suited to our environment.

We are here, senscient, to comment on our own surroundings because we exist. Where else could we be?

[Recusant]

I think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic'  from how everyone else describes themselves in here.  I have church friends  who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to  , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny.

I encourage you to investigate the claims made by Creationists as rigorously as you can. Check their assertions, and compare them to what scientists who actually work in the various fields say regarding these topics. I've spent a lot of time educating myself regarding Creationist claims, and not to put too fine a point on it, I've found them to be consistently inaccurate if not downright deceptive. Austin Cline has written a brief description of Creationist tactics. He covers some of the main points, but I wouldn't say that his description is exhaustive. Feel free to post questions here that might arise as you read through the Creationist material. We have a whole section devoted to Creationism/Intelligent Design where such questions would be quite appropriate.

As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.

Why would anybody think that life might arise and exist in an environment in which it was impossible?

From Douglas Adams: "42.2: The origin of god (puddle's view)":

". . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' "

Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ;  its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing  denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists  with a vengence .

I don't know if you read the link I supplied earlier in this thread to the description of concern trolling. If you did, you may understand why Tank and I suspect that is what you are here for. Most atheist people who join here don't come in "with guns a-blazing," but neither do they immediately start asking questions that most of us have heard repeatedly coming from Christians and Creationists. You implied in one of your posts that you had an atheist upbringing. You also said that you live in a small town in the south. As an atheist in that environment, one would think that you had heard these sorts of questions repeatedly yourself, and would have made your peace with them one way or another long since. How are you enjoying your visit to the northwest, by the way?

[Tank]

You know if you're a theist, that really isn't a problem with us, there are a couple of regular posters here who do generally well despite having very different beliefs about the whole religious issue.

Would you mind saying why you feel that IDers might be right?

But yeah, maybe it would be best to describe a bit of your background so we can better know where you're coming from and whether or not you're a troll, intentional or not. 

I think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic'  from how everyone else describes themselves in here.  I have church friends  who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to  , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny.  Same for Dawkins and Hitchens.   As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.   

Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ;  its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing  denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists  with a vengence .  I was taught to respect others even if their ideology is different from mine , so, I hope no one will mind if i dont fly off the wall toward Theists or call them F. bombs  because some of my friends i hang with are Christians and Muslim .   While i see some things wrong with their religion, Im not prepared to act militant toward them or what they have found peace in.    I would like to know if theres a book available which counters the statements that Theists typically give when talking about I.D.  . 

And what have you learned from this experience?

[Liar For Jesus]

Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ;  its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing  denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists  with a vengence .  I was taught to respect others even if their ideology is different from mine , so, I hope no one will mind if i dont fly off the wall toward Theists or call them F. bomb....

And what have you learned from this experience?

Ive discovered that  some people  can be immediately presumptuous  .


EDIT. Fixed quotes - Tank

[Liar For Jesus]

I think I would call myself a 'Seeker Agnostic'  from how everyone else describes themselves in here.  I have church friends  who have given me Creationist material and websites to go to  , and because im at the stage that im open minded and on a truth search, im willing to listen to what they have to say although with scrutiny.

I encourage you to investigate the claims made by Creationists as rigorously as you can. Check their assertions, and compare them to what scientists who actually work in the various fields say regarding these topics. I've spent a lot of time educating myself regarding Creationist claims, and not to put too fine a point on it, I've found them to be consistently inaccurate if not downright deceptive. Austin Cline has written a brief description of Creationist tactics. He covers some of the main points, but I wouldn't say that his description is exhaustive. Feel free to post questions here that might arise as you read through the Creationist material. We have a whole section devoted to Creationism/Intelligent Design where such questions would be quite appropriate.

As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.

Why would anybody think that life might arise and exist in an environment in which it was impossible?

From Douglas Adams: "42.2: The origin of god (puddle's view)":

". . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' "

Frankly, ive never come to a Forum before where ive had a label immediatly slapped on my back , as forcefully as this one ;  its almost like I was expected to come in here with guns a-blazing  denouncing I.D., Creationists, and Theists  with a vengence .

I don't know if you read the link I supplied earlier in this thread to the description of concern trolling. If you did, you may understand why Tank and I suspect that is what you are here for. Most atheist people who join here don't come in "with guns a-blazing," but neither do they immediately start asking questions that most of us have heard repeatedly coming from Christians and Creationists. You implied in one of your posts that you had an atheist upbringing. You also said that you live in a small town in the south. As an atheist in that environment, one would think that you had heard these sorts of questions repeatedly yourself, and would have made your peace with them one way or another long since. How are you enjoying your visit to the northwest, by the way?

Are you saying when we consider all the required LIfe enabling parameters ,collectively and working in unison, that are required for our existence on earth...that it should not surprise us or that it should but to only a small degree ? 

Youve got me mixed up with someone else...im not on a trip to the Northwest and ive never been to the Northwest in my life.

[Stevil]

I haven't arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.  

Coincidence?? The planet didn't pop into homely existence for us to enjoy, we evolved to be suited to our environment.

We are here, senscient, to comment on our own surroundings because we exist. Where else could we be?

Unfortunatly our cosmologists are only just able to discover distant planets now. They certainly don't know what is or isn't on them.
We really only have a clue about the current state of our own solar system. Don't even know if there was ever life on Mars or Venus.

[Whitney]

from a natural perspective; if the environmental requirements for life to exist were not in place on earth then life simply wouldn't have existed and we wouldn't be around to be talking about it.

We also do not know nearly enough about even the known universe to make any claims about Earth being the only life sustaining planet.  NASA is increasingly frequently finding suspected earth like planets that are too far for us to travel to right now.

[Recusant]

Are you saying when we consider all the required LIfe enabling parameters ,collectively and working in unison, that are required for our existence on earth...that it should not surprise us or that it should but to only a small degree ?

I do not see why it should come as a surprise that life has arisen in a location where it is possible for life to arise.

I would like to ask you a question in return: Do you have any reason to think that it's extremely unlikely that life will arise in an environment in which it is possible?

[The Magic Pudding]

It is to be expected that there are a lot of places in the universe that would suit us just fine.
Perhaps without malaria carrying mosquitoes and large animals that eat us.
My continent has vast areas that aren't really suitable for human life.
Antarctica, going there is in some ways is like going to the moon, it obviously wasn't designed with us in mind.
Why is so much of the Earth apparently designed for fish or bacteria?
The simplest explanation is people who discover and promote intelligent design are dishonest, those that accept it are gullible.  I'm not sure if considering these people as truly deluded is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Dawkin's book climbing mount improbable covers ID well.

If I just rolled 1,000 dice it would be kind of ridiculous looking at the result and saying wow! that's astounding the odds of that result are astronomical.  It's happened at least once that the dice have landed in such a way that life becomes aware of the odds, but that doesn't imply someone rigged the game.  If he had why did he toss the dice trillions of trillions of times elsewhere without throwing the winning numbers?

[xSilverPhinx]

I'm also of the strong opinion that where ever life is possible, it's inevitable given the conditions necessary for it are stable enough.

Carbon, which is what allows the long complex molecular chains of organic chemistry, is one of the most abundant atoms in the universe.

Based on the stranger forms of life on Earth, the so called extremophiles, it's possible to speculate that even planets that aren't earth-like in any way could harbour life. They could be feeding off other forms of energy instead of that of a close star. The goldilocks zone isn't really that much of a necessity and I'm basing that on the assumption that liquid water is better than any other chemical liquid for life to arise.

That is, if we're able to recognise them as life in the first place.

Since the universe is so large, the likelihood of there being other lifeforms is very high because of the sheer number of solar systems and planets.

The weirdest thing about life (the ones that are commonly recognised as life by us) IMO is that it works against entropy, though it's not in violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. There's nothing ultra special about life to make any natural explanation not good enough or miraculous enough to warrant a supernatural explanation.

[ThinkAnarchy]

   As far as I.D. goes...I havent arrived at anything conclusive other than we do seem to be in a certain part of the Universe that is just right for our many life forms to thrive.   

We have only explored a very small percentage of the universe. We as a society are still very ignorant of what is out there. From a statistical stand point, it's likely there are other planets in the universe capable of supporting life similar to that on earth.

[Stevil]

I'm also of the strong opinion that where ever life is possible, it's inevitable given the conditions necessary for it are stable enough.

I would agree with this. Although it hasn't been proven yet, and I don't believe it to be true, I would be surprised if this were to be proven to be untrue.