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And this is bad .....why???

Started by Attila, October 31, 2011, 01:07:03 PM

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Attila

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/the-two-faces-of-tony-blair-6255021.html
QuoteA new law, rushed through the country's parliament and announced by Mr Nazarbayev, forbids prayer rooms inside state buildings, orders all religious groups to re-register or face liquidation through the courts, bans foreigners from setting up faith groups, and severely limits where religious literature can be bought.
I never thought the day would come when I came out on the same side as Tony Blair on anything. What has happened to the Independent? Have then been bought by NI?
"This is probably the least worrying thing going on in Kazakhstan" - Ildiko

Asmodean

Seriously..?  :o

Cool! They have this cosmodrome or whatever it is they call it there too, don't they..? Where Russians launch things from..? I like Kazakhstan  ;D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ildiko

Not just the cosmodrome, they also have Borat!

Whitney

Quote from: Attila on October 31, 2011, 01:07:03 PM
bans foreigners from setting up faith groups, and severely limits where religious literature can be bought.

This part is bad...it limits individual freedom.  And I'm guessing this  is a response to the growing European fear that Islam will take over....laws/policy created out of fear tend to lead to bad things  (red scare, japanese concentration....)

Asmodean

Quote from: Ildiko on October 31, 2011, 01:22:19 PM
Not just the cosmodrome, they also have Borat!
Ah! Of course! Kazakhstan's stock in Bank of Asmodean is rising still  ;D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Attila

Quote from: Whitney on October 31, 2011, 01:38:04 PM
Quote from: Attila on October 31, 2011, 01:07:03 PM
bans foreigners from setting up faith groups, and severely limits where religious literature can be bought.

This part is bad...it limits individual freedom.  And I'm guessing this  is a response to the growing European fear that Islam will take over....laws/policy created out of fear tend to lead to bad things  (red scare, japanese concentration....)
1. But Kazakhstan is almost entirely in central Aisa and only very marginally  in Europe. It is also 70% islamic.
2. In terms of taking over, how many Islamic countries are being invaded/bombed/... by Europeans/Americans (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen ...). How many European countries are being invaded/bombed/... by Islamic countries??
(uh ..... uh... uh ....)
3. Would you be in favour of a prayer room in the Texas Capital building (maybe there's one there already)
4. If you saw first-hand the unspeakable harm that foreign missionaries are doing, you would be standing up and applauding this move. Of all the evils committed by "the faithful" foreign missionary work is about the worst.
5. Why is limiting where religious literature can be bought any worse than limiting where alcohol/cigarettes can be bought. This is certainly true in Canada (the LCBO in Ontario, the SAQ in Québec)

Sandra Craft

As long as it applies to every religious group (the article did mention a tendency to favor Xtians and "approved" Muslim groups), I don't see anything too wrong with it.  It sounds like a desperate attempt to keep warring factions under some control.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Attila

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 31, 2011, 02:38:20 PM
As long as it applies to every religious group (the article did mention a tendency to favor Xtians and "approved" Muslim groups), I don't see anything too wrong with it.  It sounds like a desperate attempt to keep warring factions under some control.
The Independent is getting more and more dodgy these days so I don't know how accurate this report is. FWIW when it mentions "religious groups" it says, "all religious groups". As for the motivation for it, you could well be right.

Whitney

Quote from: Attila on October 31, 2011, 01:56:15 PM
1. But Kazakhstan is almost entirely in central Aisa and only very marginally  in Europe. It is also 70% islamic.
I don't see how this has anything to do with what I said....there are, in general, many europeans who think islam is trying to take over.
Quote2. In terms of taking over, how many Islamic countries are being invaded/bombed/... by Europeans/Americans (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen ...). How many European countries are being invaded/bombed/... by Islamic countries??
(uh ..... uh... uh ....)
You can't punish individuals just because countries predominantly of the same religion tend to attack other countries.  Or at least you can't if you want to value personal freedom.  The above argument is how my previous examples of the Red Scare and Japanese concentration were justified....everyone of one kind of group were lumped in with the enemy.  It's how In God We Trust got plastered onto US money!
Quote
3. Would you be in favour of a prayer room in the Texas Capital building (maybe there's one there already)
I didn't say there was a problem with not allowing prayer rooms.
Quote4. If you saw first-hand the unspeakable harm that foreign missionaries are doing, you would be standing up and applauding this move. Of all the evils committed by "the faithful" foreign missionary work is about the worst.
I don't know what evils you are talking about but if you just mean the general evils of fundamentalist religion then no I wouldn't sacrifice personal freedom over fear of what views some missionaries are spreading.  

Quote5. Why is limiting where religious literature can be bought any worse than limiting where alcohol/cigarettes can be bought. This is certainly true in Canada (the LCBO in Ontario, the SAQ in Québec)
I don't think any of it should be limited...but alcohol/cigs (which objectively cause scientifically verifiable harm) are in a different category from religious material (which is only subjectively harmful).  

Attila

#9
Quote from: WhitneyI don't see how this has anything to do with what I said....there are, in general, many europeans who think islam is trying to take over.
1. Sorry I thought you meant that Europeans were afraid that Islamic is trying to take over Europe. I didn't think they were talking about taking over (which is not the case) central Asia. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying (and still do).
QuoteYou can't punish individuals just because countries predominantly of the same religion tend to attack other countries.  Or at least you can't if you want to value personal freedom.  The above argument is how my previous examples of the Red Scare and Japanese concentration were justified....everyone of one kind of group were lumped in with the enemy.  It's how In God We Trust got plastered onto US money!
2. I was not talking about punishing anybody. I was talking about the absurdity of Europeans (or anyone else) fearing a "takeover" when the aggression seems to be going in the opposite direction.
QuoteI didn't say there was a problem with not allowing prayer rooms.
3. Ok, my mistake. Sorry.
QuoteI don't know what evils you are talking about but if you just mean the general evils of fundamentalist religion then no I wouldn't sacrifice personal freedom over fear of what views some missionaries are spreading.  
I could write a book on the subject. If you're really interested I could go into more detail but it then should be put into a different thread. One quick example: the Catholic Missionaries (Javarianos, MXY to be precise) decided that the traditional indigenous habitation called a maloca or long-house was an "unchristian" way to live (the entire village under one roof) and caused the inhabitants to move into individual houses which they were forced to build. The results was there are no longer any old people (i.e. too old to cultivate) in these "christian" villages. The maloca divided the responsibilities for  providing for the old people among the entire village. This was impossible in the "christian" village style. I'm sorry to be brief but I hope it's clear enough to see what happened. Oh, and just for fun they forbade the indigenous people from carrying on with their own "pagan" cultural activities. As I said, I could go on and on.
QuoteI don't think any of it should be limited...but alcohol/cigs (which objectively cause scientifically verifiable harm) are in a different category from religious material (which is only subjectively harmful).
Ok Whitney. Replace cigarettes/alcohol with child pornography. Would that qualify as "subjectively harmful"? I was hoping to avoid this subject as it quite distressing.  

Whitney

i don't see what missionaries in some small tribal town are doing has to do with laws elsewhere...

And child pornography is objectively harmful...i don't think I should have to take the time to explain why.

Attila

Quote from: Whitney on October 31, 2011, 04:42:13 PM
i don't see what missionaries in some small tribal town are doing has to do with laws elsewhere...

And child pornography is objectively harmful...i don't think I should have to take the time to explain why.
No need to.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Whitney on October 31, 2011, 03:02:29 PM
I don't know what evils you are talking about but if you just mean the general evils of fundamentalist religion then no I wouldn't sacrifice personal freedom over fear of what views some missionaries are spreading.  

I don't know, when I think about what the natives in this country went thru with the missionaries (some of my relatives among them) I think it might be worth stepping on a few toes to prevent.  I realize it's dodgy, tho.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Whitney

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 01, 2011, 02:00:12 AM
Quote from: Whitney on October 31, 2011, 03:02:29 PM
I don't know what evils you are talking about but if you just mean the general evils of fundamentalist religion then no I wouldn't sacrifice personal freedom over fear of what views some missionaries are spreading.  

I don't know, when I think about what the natives in this country went thru with the missionaries (some of my relatives among them) I think it might be worth stepping on a few toes to prevent.  I realize it's dodgy, tho.

I think cutting off your nose to spite your face may be a fitting phrase for this topic.  Obviously religion does do some damage but the actions necessary to stop the damage in many cases just moves the damage elsewhere at best and can make it worse.

Ecurb Noselrub

I'm siding with Whitney on this one.  While you can't allow religious practices to completely dominate business and the affairs of state, curbing personal freedom is a rejection of all the progress that was made in the Enlightenment. Freedom in matters of religion/non-religion is one of the hallmarks of a liberal democracy.  If you go back on that, you move toward a totalitarian state, which is what we all (I would hope) want to avoid.