Make Christians Consider the Holocaust

[liveyoungdiefast]

Generally in proving the validity of atheism and arguing against Christianity, I generally prefer arguments from rationality and logic. Christians make more use of emotional arguments and I often think they seem weaker. But I thought of a good emotional argument for debating with Christians. Tell me if you think it's good and would be effective.

 Ask "Does everyone who isn't saved by accepting Jesus Christ go to hell?"
They'll have to say "Yes." They might say God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, anyone has the chance to accept Jesus, etc.

Then ask "Does that include Jews who don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of god?"
They'll have to say "Yes" again. They might diffuse the enormity of it by pointing out the Jews can accept Jesus at any time too.

Then ask "Do you think the Holocaust happened?"
Even most fundamentalist Christians know the Holocaust happened, so they'll have to answer again with "Yes."

Then ask "And the Holocaust was absolutely evil, right?"
And once again, even most fundies will reply "Of course!." They might even say Hitler was possessed by the devil or blame the devil for Nazi Germany.


And then you finally say

"Well if you really believe what you believe, that means that almost every single one of the six million Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust all went to hell. That means every Jew who suffered in Nazi concentration camps for years, which you yourself just called an atrocity, didn't get anything better after they die. In fact, given what hell is, the Nazi concentration camps are a trillion times a better place to be than hell. So I really don't see how you can call the Holocaust an atrocity if what God sentenced the Jews to after is all that much worse. So you can't say the Holocaust was evil because hell is a lot more suffering for the Jews.

So ask yourself? Can you really live with believing that every Jew who suffered unimaginable horrors and pain on Earth are now suffering infinitely more in hell? Is that the kind of God you believe in? "

[elliebean]

That depends on which kind of christian you're talking to; they don't all have the same belief regarding hell, for example.

But while I'm here replying, I can't help but point out:
[spoiler:39xttpr0]....  woohoo wooohoooo!  [/spoiler:39xttpr0]

[Ellainix]

Good material. Usually a Christian will use Nazism as an example of Atheism. Most of us feel like the problem with Nazism is that it is too much like religion.

[philosoraptor]

I get the cut of your jib, but don't think it's really an effective argument to pose to a Christian.  Especially when they can point to a Biblical example like Job and say that he endured great suffering and still never turned away from God.  Maybe it's just the way you worded it, but it doesn't make much sense from a religious stand point.  If someone hasn't accepted Jesus, they're doomed, regardless of what happens to them before they die.  If you wanted to use the Holocaust to argue against the existence of God, I think it's more effective to argue the problem of evil, and say that it doesn't make sense that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would allow such a thing to happen, especially not when the Bible gives evidence that God can in fact act against a human's free will to change situations of great evil (Sodom and Gomorrah, the great flood, etc...).  The fact that the Holocaust happens could be seen as evidence that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God does not exist, or else he would have prevented it from happening.  It also seems worth mentioning that of the 11 million estimated to have been killed in the Holocaust, only 6 million were Jews.  Gypsies, the mentally handicapped, sick children, etc.. were also exterminated, and arguably, some of those people might have been Christian.  Jesus didn't bother to spare them, either, apparently.

Of course, the response to this is usually along the lines of us being unable to know God's will, and maybe he did actually act and if he hadn't interceded the Holocaust would have been much worse.  To which you can respond that if God is unable to prevent that greater unknown evil as well, then he is not omnipotent.

[McQ]

Generally in proving the validity of atheism and arguing against Christianity, I generally prefer arguments from rationality and logic. Christians make more use of emotional arguments and I often think they seem weaker. But I thought of a good emotional argument for debating with Christians. Tell me if you think it's good and would be effective.

 Ask "Does everyone who isn't saved by accepting Jesus Christ go to hell?"
They'll have to say "Yes." They might say God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, anyone has the chance to accept Jesus, etc.

Then ask "Does that include Jews who don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of god?"
They'll have to say "Yes" again. They might diffuse the enormity of it by pointing out the Jews can accept Jesus at any time too.

Then ask "Do you think the Holocaust happened?"
Even most fundamentalist Christians know the Holocaust happened, so they'll have to answer again with "Yes."

Then ask "And the Holocaust was absolutely evil, right?"
And once again, even most fundies will reply "Of course!." They might even say Hitler was possessed by the devil or blame the devil for Nazi Germany.


And then you finally say

"Well if you really believe what you believe, that means that almost every single one of the six million Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust all went to hell. That means every Jew who suffered in Nazi concentration camps for years, which you yourself just called an atrocity, didn't get anything better after they die. In fact, given what hell is, the Nazi concentration camps are a trillion times a better place to be than hell. So I really don't see how you can call the Holocaust an atrocity if what God sentenced the Jews to after is all that much worse. So you can't say the Holocaust was evil because hell is a lot more suffering for the Jews.

So ask yourself? Can you really live with believing that every Jew who suffered unimaginable horrors and pain on Earth are now suffering infinitely more in hell? Is that the kind of God you believe in? "

Too many holes in your line of questioning, starting with the initial question. As has already been pointed out, there are many different answers you'll get on this from the many different christian denominations. So you're derailed on your first question. Sorry!

[i_am_i]

Tell them that all this God stuff is just made up and you really need to get on with your shopping. Have a nice day!

The point is that your Holocaust argument is nothing more than an attempt to confuse Christians and it never works. In presenting that you're buying into their game: that there is such a thing as God so why would he do such a thing? They know that there's such a thing as God, see, and they've got a whole book of falderal to back them up.

(That actually is how "falderal" is spelled. I had to look it up. You can also spell is as folderol.)

I'm afraid it's useless to try to get Christians to consider anything. Sir, step away from the Christian!

[Tanker]

For one young earth creationist I conversd with this line of questions would have faltered at "Do you think the holocaust happened?" He thought it had happened but the death count was in the thousands not millions. Oh and Jews apearently have complete control of the U.S. government. As proof he put forward John Kerry's running mate was a Jew. This was 2 years after Kerry had lost. Never underestimate the stupidty of others especially "true believers" of whatever faith.