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Our Universe

Started by Sophus, March 21, 2010, 04:27:27 AM

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Sophus

As a note before I begin: Anyone more knowledgeable on this subject, please, I beg your correction. This is merely my speculation based on what little I think I know.

It seems to me, of all the sciences, Cosmology is the most troubled when it comes to answering the heart of its target: What is our Universe?

How much can we truly know about our Universe? Can we even speculate the probability of a Multiverse to any degree of accuracy with such little knowledge? Many physicists have come up with plausible theories but it would seem theories have a different nature in this branch of science, not needing to match all the criteria as listed in Squid's wonderful article on why we shouldn't teach creationism in schools (or are these technically 'hypotheses'?).

Part of this leads back to the Creationists', and even some of the evolutionary theists', arguments of a finely-tuned Universe. Of course it is extremely presumptuous on their part to think the anthropic principle is in their favor because it assumes one finite Universe. But I also find some aspects of the Anthropic Principle presume too much. If you change the value of X then life as we know it cannot exist. What if life could come about in other ways? After all we don't know how the life we know came into existence. What if that said change actually made it possible for this different type of life to be more abundant? Or what if it lead to the production of something else beyond the human imagination? Can we truly speculate on such matters though? By changing one aspect throughout the entire Universe I think we may be very shocked at the results we would see.

I don't think it is presumptuous to find favor in the Multiverse hypothesis because of the "evolutionary awakening" Dawkins mentions in The God Delusion. It causes us to consider, 'perhaps there is a chain of events leading from simplicity to form the complexity of a universe." This would certainly make sense in a natural, uh... what's grander than a Universe? However perhaps the reason cosmology hasn't found its Darwin is because we've yet to be creative enough to find the solution. Unfortunately, I think this one will remain a mystery in my lifetime.

Also - I'm thinking of reading Victor Stenger's The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning: How the Universe is Not Designed for Humanity. Would anyone else recommend this book?
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

karadan

Instead of the universe being fine-tuned for life, I prefer to think of it as life has fine-tuned itself to live in the universe. I've always been amazed at the idea of life based upon other elements instead of carbon. How do we know we won't find silicon-based life living in the depths of liquid methane seas on other planets? I often wonder if science will enable us to accurately hypothesise other forms of life and build them in a lab under various conditions using nano-assemblers or some such technology. I think this kind of research will probably help us greatly when looking for other forms of life beyond the solar system. For instance, the research might show other tetravalent compounds form complex chemicals under extremely hot and acidic environments. We might then know to look for gas giants verging on brown dwarf status or Venus-like planets with seas of hydro silicates.

Many cosmologists and mathematicians are really starting to adopt the multiverse model as a serious part of their fields of study. It certainly isn't scoffed at like it used to be. I believe it will eventually become so ingrained in the study of the universe that it will be viewed as a constant which we are unable to see but know is there - like atoms.

I agree with you that, unfortunately, we will not see real advancements in the study of the universe and the search for ET in our lifetimes. Not unless AI is developed before i'm 80  :P
QuoteI find it mistifying that in this age of information, some people still deny the scientific history of our existence.

Sophus

Quote from: "karadan"Instead of the universe being fine-tuned for life, I prefer to think of it as life has fine-tuned itself to live in the universe.

I used to think of it like that too, however, I think this might be confusing the cause for the effect. For instance, it seems there would only be so many possible "mixtures" or situations in which life could come about. Life is, indeed, a fighting force that works through natural means to keep itself in existence, but that of course only is if it is in existence. The cumulative process for life must get going first.

QuoteHow do we know we won't find silicon-based life living in the depths of liquid methane seas on other planets?

Fascinating stuff! Who knows what temperature requirements would even be needed for entirely different form of life. Sure, the weather's friendly here for us, yet still different animals here have adjusted for survival in very drastic temperatures.

QuoteMany cosmologists and mathematicians are really starting to adopt the multiverse model as a serious part of their fields of study. It certainly isn't scoffed at like it used to be. I believe it will eventually become so ingrained in the study of the universe that it will be viewed as a constant which we are unable to see but know is there - like atoms.

I love it when the "nutty" theories become axioms.  :yay:

Thanks for your input!
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

i_am_i

The universe is all around us, nor are we apart from it. Let me ask you a question: what do you know about your own humanity? What do you know about humanity at all?

Once you've done away with all the God flapdoodle then the real journey begins, and that journey, in my opinion, is getting to know about us, here, on this planet.

Everything else is just science fiction.
Call me J


Sapere aude

Sophus

Quote from: "i_am_i"The universe is all around us, nor are we apart from it. Let me ask you a question: what do you know about your own humanity? What do you know about humanity at all?

Once you've done away with all the God flapdoodle then the real journey begins, and that journey, in my opinion, is getting to know about us, here, on this planet.

Everything else is just science fiction.

The Cosmos is a fascination of mine. Problems on this planet are important too, but I think it's interesting to stand back and look at the big scheme of things. I agree with Carl Sagan that understanding the cosmos is a way of learning about who we are too.

Besides, today's science fiction is tomorrow's science.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

dogsmycopilot

Quote from: "Sophus"Also - I'm thinking of reading Victor Stenger's The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning: How the Universe is Not Designed for Humanity. Would anyone else recommend this book?
Absolutely! The fine tuning argument has been won by atheists if only we could get the math across to the rest of the population.

angelosergipe

Quote from: "dogsmycopilot"The fine tuning argument has been won by atheists if only we could get the math across to the rest of the population.

Could you show how the fine tuning argument has been won by atheists ?