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This Dude Is Insane Lmao

Started by Arturo, March 13, 2018, 12:14:44 AM

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Arturo

It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Davin

I support the idea that people shouldn't be trying so hard to fit into socially pressured roles, gender being one of them. The only downside to it would be losing all those jokes, "Women are like "bleh" and men are like "blah," am I right?"
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Arturo

Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 02:28:00 PM
I support the idea that people shouldn't be trying so hard to fit into socially pressured roles, gender being one of them. The only downside to it would be losing all those jokes, "Women are like "bleh" and men are like "blah," am I right?"

I mean like fine, pressured into roles is dumb, but the fact that he exclaimed that every guy wants to be pretty made me lmao

That is the same mindset, only going in the opposite direction. And not every person lives with those pressures lmao

I've always put an emphasis on trying to be myself, not caring what other people think of me.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Davin

Quote from: Arturo on March 13, 2018, 02:46:02 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 02:28:00 PM
I support the idea that people shouldn't be trying so hard to fit into socially pressured roles, gender being one of them. The only downside to it would be losing all those jokes, "Women are like "bleh" and men are like "blah," am I right?"

I mean like fine, pressured into roles is dumb, but the fact that he exclaimed that every guy wants to be pretty made me lmao
Most guys do want to be attractive to their desired partners. Many (including me), go through work to maintain a look that they like that they think represents themselves to others.
Expression through hair cut, clothing choices, and even smells are all attempts to look attractive (or to use an alternative word: pretty). Some people don't just want any partner, and their choices of how to look reflect that. It's not all about attracting a partner, but are are very few things that humans do that are single purpose.

Quote from: ArturoThat is the same mindset, only going in the opposite direction. And not every person lives with those pressures lmao

I've always put an emphasis on trying to be myself, not caring what other people think of me.
That sounds great to us when we are young. Fuck what other people think. I was that way for a little while. One of my friends never really got out of that mode.

On a tangent, I know that offhand that sounds condescending, the usual "just a phase" bullshit that people tend to use, however that is not how I work. People need to try many things to find out what sticks, sometimes things feel good to a person for a while until they move on from it, and some things stick for life. I'm not saying you will change your mind on that, but it's very likely that you will because you're young and still have a lot of life to live. Neither outcome is good or bad in itself. End of tangent.

I tested out what other people thought of me by wearing different clothes, acting different ways. Turns out that I could find a middle ground that I am happy with between how much I care about what other people think of me and fitting into the image I feel comfortable in. That is me however, my friend is doing just fine not giving a shit about what other people think.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Arturo

Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 03:11:22 PM
Most guys do want to be attractive to their desired partners. Many (including me), go through work to maintain a look that they like that they think represents themselves to others.
Expression through hair cut, clothing choices, and even smells are all attempts to look attractive (or to use an alternative word: pretty). Some people don't just want any partner, and their choices of how to look reflect that. It's not all about attracting a partner, but are are very few things that humans do that are single purpose.
There is nothing wrong with a guy trying to be attractive. I'm not against that. He is using the dichotomy of a typical female virtue for attractiveness (in this case pretty) and applying it to men. Saying all men want to be that way. When that is a gross over generalization. That's all I'm saying. And the fact that it's so ironic and exaggerate just makes me laugh. And it almost makes me think he hates masculinity because of the way he shouts when the man cave is brought up lol
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That sounds great to us when we are young. Fuck what other people think. I was that way for a little while. One of my friends never really got out of that mode.

On a tangent, I know that offhand that sounds condescending, the usual "just a phase" bullshit that people tend to use, however that is not how I work. People need to try many things to find out what sticks, sometimes things feel good to a person for a while until they move on from it, and some things stick for life. I'm not saying you will change your mind on that, but it's very likely that you will because you're young and still have a lot of life to live. Neither outcome is good or bad in itself. End of tangent.

I tested out what other people thought of me by wearing different clothes, acting different ways. Turns out that I could find a middle ground that I am happy with between how much I care about what other people think of me and fitting into the image I feel comfortable in. That is me however, my friend is doing just fine not giving a shit about what other people think.

Actually I've always been that way. I only got jaded when I started caring too much about what people think and let them affect me too much and bring me down. That was brought about by other life events I won't get into right now. But ultimately trying not to care what other people think is very difficult once you have changed into someone who has been walked all over for a long time. And someone who thinks they "feel" other people's emotions and has their mind being read. That is a symptom of going too far in the other direction.

So yeah to some it might seem like not caring what other's think might be too much but from my point of view the opposite is too much. It all depends on the person's personal preference. And it just seems like the guy in the video is living in a fantasy land that everyone subscribes to some cut and dry, black and white sense of identity when that is not the case.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Davin

Quote from: Arturo on March 13, 2018, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 03:11:22 PM
Most guys do want to be attractive to their desired partners. Many (including me), go through work to maintain a look that they like that they think represents themselves to others.
Expression through hair cut, clothing choices, and even smells are all attempts to look attractive (or to use an alternative word: pretty). Some people don't just want any partner, and their choices of how to look reflect that. It's not all about attracting a partner, but are are very few things that humans do that are single purpose.
There is nothing wrong with a guy trying to be attractive. I'm not against that. He is using the dichotomy of a typical female virtue for attractiveness (in this case pretty) and applying it to men. Saying all men want to be that way. When that is a gross over generalization. That's all I'm saying.
"Pretty" is not gender specific in definition though. It is in practice that the term is more commonly applied to women. The point he was making is that while the different genders have subscribed to using different terms or trying to obfuscate similar behaviors under different guises, both genders (even the socially prescribed ones), are not that different in total.

Quote from: ArturoAnd the fact that it's so ironic and exaggerate just makes me laugh. And it almost makes me think he hates masculinity because of the way he shouts when the man cave is brought up lol
He holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?

Quote from: Arturo
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That sounds great to us when we are young. Fuck what other people think. I was that way for a little while. One of my friends never really got out of that mode.

Actually I've always been that way. I only got jaded when I started caring too much about what people think and let them affect me too much and bring me down.
Yeah, "too much" is always bad, it's a tautologous term. It is not however very specific and implies that even you at some level care about what other people think, just not too much. Caring about what other people think is part of realizing that you are part of something bigger than yourself. It means that you accept that other people have their own personhoods and is a good step to being able to navigate social situations. One thing people tend to focus on is the seemingly odd behavior and forget to see the possible benefits of those behaviors. Many things come naturally to most people and they do not have to think about them, for me though it was very different, hardly anything came naturally to me and I had to analyze and make sense of as much as I could.

There are people that can get away with not caring at all about what other people think, but there are sacrifices that need to be made. Many of the issues can be overcome by personal preferences, like if you don't care about what job you work at, then don't worry about what other co-workers think about you. If you have enough on one resource (money, attractiveness, hooks... etc.), then one may possibly get by for a long time on one or more resources without having to care. The unfortunate issue is, that those resources could be multiplied by caring about what other people think and treating other people well, but many people find one thing that "works" for them and keep on doing that because that's all they know. And to be fair, it's tough to get good data using only ones own experiences.

I find that it's good for me to be able to justify my behavior and style choices by using a fictional rational person and what that reasonable person should be OK with. If I can justify things to that person, then I don't have an issue. People around me may bring my judgements into question and I will re-analyze them to figure out whether I need to change or not. Relying on other people in such a way is healthy and helps one to learn how to better navigate social situations.

Quote from: ArturoThat was brought about by other life events I won't get into right now. But ultimately trying not to care what other people think is very difficult once you have changed into someone who has been walked all over for a long time. And someone who thinks they "feel" other people's emotions and has their mind being read. That is a symptom of going too far in the other direction.
I think it's good advice for people to take criticism, listen to it, but not to act directly from it. Sometimes even, it's a good idea to block off one or more people from even listening to that criticism due to the history with those people. That however doesn't mean that one should cut off all 7 billion people for the actions of a few.

Quote from: ArturoSo yeah to some it might seem like not caring what other's think might be too much but from my point of view the opposite is too much. It all depends on the person's personal preference. And it just seems like the guy in the video is living in a fantasy land that everyone subscribes to some cut and dry, black and white sense of identity when that is not the case.
Almost everything in life is a matter of amounts instead of dichotomy and everything is a matter of context. The guy in the video concedes to a similar sentiment, especially in the conclusion where he says that he doesn't want to just throw genders out the window and doesn't want extreme changes.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Arturo

#6
Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 05:02:11 PM
"Pretty" is not gender specific in definition though. It is in practice that the term is more commonly applied to women. The point he was making is that while the different genders have subscribed to using different terms or trying to obfuscate similar behaviors under different guises, both genders (even the socially prescribed ones), are not that different in total.
Near the end he made sure that he was communicating a "gender bending" utopia. He goes so far as to say that BIC made pens for women which received backlash. And going off of that he asked why have different clothes for gender. For 1, men and women have different shaped bodies.
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He holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?
Is that what you think? I am male so I only know about being male. Would you think it would be appropriate for a guy to go around saying how hard it is to be a woman? I've been told be a cisgendered woman that she does not think that appropriate for the feminist movement. I.e Male to female transgenders becoming faces for the feminist movement. She gave good reasons why as to there can be really sick male to female trans who aren't genuine. People who are not really trans people. Like spys. One guy was sent to jail for jerking off to pictures of little girls and the issue was brought up of to send him to a woman's prison or a man's because he identified as a male to female trans. The implications of things like that are not often brought up.

So now I am going to try and tell you where I'm coming from to earn a little respect. I am not perfect but I use what I've picked up from psychology. There is a lecture here from a professor who explains a certain level of empathy when trying to understand a complex. 1. You have to understand why a person feels such a way. 2. You have to put a hypothesis out there (and trust me this is how psychology often works, it's not very emprical) and 3. it helps to look at the thing at has as a sub-personality to completely understand but know that it is only a "sub"-personality and not the whole person.

https://youtu.be/JVKfH5XSdM4
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I think it's good advice for people to take criticism, listen to it, but not to act directly from it. Sometimes even, it's a good idea to block off one or more people from even listening to that criticism due to the history with those people. That however doesn't mean that one should cut off all 7 billion people for the actions of a few.
You don't know what you are talking about. I said I wouldn't get into it right now. End of story.

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Almost everything in life is a matter of amounts instead of dichotomy and everything is a matter of context. The guy in the video concedes to a similar sentiment, especially in the conclusion where he says that he doesn't want to just throw genders out the window and doesn't want extreme changes.
You forgot the part where he said "not yet". Whether this guy is serious or just trying to make a joke with that is hard to tell just like how the current POTUS was taken as a joke up until he won. But from what I can tell he looks completely serious and steadfast in the message that I received.

Going on about the popstars like Jay-Z and Beyonce and Marilyn Manroe and others have only been fake rebels that are prepackaged but only represent that status quo. That people like the status quo because it makes them feel safe. But in my mind, their rebelliousness had nothing to do with gender. My world doesn't revolve around gender identity.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Davin

Quote from: Arturo on March 13, 2018, 08:13:00 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 05:02:11 PM
"Pretty" is not gender specific in definition though. It is in practice that the term is more commonly applied to women. The point he was making is that while the different genders have subscribed to using different terms or trying to obfuscate similar behaviors under different guises, both genders (even the socially prescribed ones), are not that different in total.
Near the end he made sure that he was communicating a "gender bending" utopia. He goes so far as to say that BIC made pens for women which received backlash. And going off of that he asked why have different clothes for gender. For 1, men and women have different shaped bodies.
Men have different body shapes than other men. I have a different body shape than I previously had. I was skinny, and am now more muscular. Differently shaped bodies does not match the types of gender specific differences in clothing that he is talking about. There are some things in women's and men's bodies that we are trained to notice and try to exaggerate in order to make sure that the perceived gender of the wearer is moved more towards the ideal gender conception. Women in general have wider hips, however that doesn't mean that all women's hips are wider than all men's hips, but "all" women are "expected" to make it look like they have wider hips using clothing designed to do so.

Why do women clothes have fewer, smaller, and/or fake pockets? That doesn't have anything to do with body shape, it's to do with the expectation that women will carry a purse or hand bag around with them and therefore not require more storage capacity on their clothing. There is no body shape reason for fewer, smaller, and/or fake pockets.

Quote from: Arturo
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He holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?
Is that what you think? I am male so I only know about being male. Would you think it would be appropriate for a guy to go around saying how hard it is to be a woman?[...]
I'll stop you there and give you a chance to reread what I wrote and correct this seemingly red herring of a response.

Quote from: Arturo
Quote
I think it's good advice for people to take criticism, listen to it, but not to act directly from it. Sometimes even, it's a good idea to block off one or more people from even listening to that criticism due to the history with those people. That however doesn't mean that one should cut off all 7 billion people for the actions of a few.
You don't know what you are talking about.[...]
Back up your claim or retract it. Otherwise I will just take it as bullshit.

Quote from: Arturo
Quote
Almost everything in life is a matter of amounts instead of dichotomy and everything is a matter of context. The guy in the video concedes to a similar sentiment, especially in the conclusion where he says that he doesn't want to just throw genders out the window and doesn't want extreme changes.
You forgot the part where he said "not yet".[...]
I didn't forget about that part. Do not try to mind read me, you have done so a few times already.

Quote from: Arturo
Going on about the popstars like Jay-Z and Beyonce and Marilyn Manroe and others have only been fake rebels that are prepackaged but only represent that status quo. That people like the status quo because it makes them feel safe. But in my mind, their rebelliousness had nothing to do with gender. My world doesn't revolve around gender identity.
Not sure where you're trying to go with that. Of course not many people's world revolves around gender identity. There are many types of rebellion, that's why the word requires context.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Arturo

Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 08:57:41 PM
Men have different body shapes than other men. I have a different body shape than I previously had. I was skinny, and am now more muscular. Differently shaped bodies does not match the types of gender specific differences in clothing that he is talking about. There are some things in women's and men's bodies that we are trained to notice and try to exaggerate in order to make sure that the perceived gender of the wearer is moved more towards the ideal gender conception. Women in general have wider hips, however that doesn't mean that all women's hips are wider than all men's hips, but "all" women are "expected" to make it look like they have wider hips using clothing designed to do so.

Why do women clothes have fewer, smaller, and/or fake pockets? That doesn't have anything to do with body shape, it's to do with the expectation that women will carry a purse or hand bag around with them and therefore not require more storage capacity on their clothing. There is no body shape reason for fewer, smaller, and/or fake pockets.
He hardly mentioned clothing from what I remember but only as a segway from the analogy for the pettiness of women's pens to the "pettiness" of men's and woman's clothes to the "pettiness" of men and women stereotypes.

From what I can tell, this guy doesn't have any actual scientific background, only a background in communication. Or bullshitting if you want to call it.
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He holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?
Is that what you think? I am male so I only know about being male. Would you think it would be appropriate for a guy to go around saying how hard it is to be a woman?[...]
I'll stop you there and give you a chance to reread what I wrote and correct this seemingly red herring of a response.
It is no more a red herring than what you said to me.

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Back up your claim or retract it. Otherwise I will just take it as bullshit.
My life. I said I wouldn't talk about it. Why are you wanting to dive into my past history? Do you have a personal stake in all this? Sorry but I don't keep track records of my personal history and study myself to hand out to random people. That's a huge amount of trust you think I put in you.

If you want proof of something else I mentioned. Should look up Kati Morton on youtube. I probably posted some of her stuff in the mental health stigma thread where she talks about some of the stuff I described. Enmeshment is a real phenomenon among people.
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Quote from: Arturo
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Almost everything in life is a matter of amounts instead of dichotomy and everything is a matter of context. The guy in the video concedes to a similar sentiment, especially in the conclusion where he says that he doesn't want to just throw genders out the window and doesn't want extreme changes.
You forgot the part where he said "not yet".[...]
I didn't forget about that part. Do not try to mind read me, you have done so a few times already.
Then why leave it out of your retort? It seems you left it out of the context in which you gave your explanation. And if that was mind reading, then what do you call this?
Quote from: DavinHe holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?

Quote
Quote from: Arturo
Going on about the popstars like Jay-Z and Beyonce and Marilyn Manroe and others have only been fake rebels that are prepackaged but only represent that status quo. That people like the status quo because it makes them feel safe. But in my mind, their rebelliousness had nothing to do with gender. My world doesn't revolve around gender identity.
Not sure where you're trying to go with that. Of course not many people's world revolves around gender identity. There are many types of rebellion, that's why the word requires context.

I am sticking to the subject of the video and my personal view of myself. Is this not what you wanted to discuss?
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Davin

Quote from: Arturo on March 13, 2018, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 13, 2018, 08:57:41 PM
Men have different body shapes than other men. I have a different body shape than I previously had. I was skinny, and am now more muscular. Differently shaped bodies does not match the types of gender specific differences in clothing that he is talking about. There are some things in women's and men's bodies that we are trained to notice and try to exaggerate in order to make sure that the perceived gender of the wearer is moved more towards the ideal gender conception. Women in general have wider hips, however that doesn't mean that all women's hips are wider than all men's hips, but "all" women are "expected" to make it look like they have wider hips using clothing designed to do so.

Why do women clothes have fewer, smaller, and/or fake pockets? That doesn't have anything to do with body shape, it's to do with the expectation that women will carry a purse or hand bag around with them and therefore not require more storage capacity on their clothing. There is no body shape reason for fewer, smaller, and/or fake pockets.
He hardly mentioned clothing from what I remember but only as a segway from the analogy for the pettiness of women's pens to the "pettiness" of men's and woman's clothes to the "pettiness" of men and women stereotypes.
Wow... I'm not sure what to do here. The logic is pretty simple to follow:

The guy mentioned that there were gender differences in clothing.
I mentioned a difference in clothing that was a gender difference.

Is it really that hard to follow?

I responded directly to the points that you brought up, and you avoided the points that I brought up, is the conversation too difficult for you?

Quote from: Arturo
From what I can tell, this guy doesn't have any actual scientific background, only a background in communication. Or bullshitting if you want to call it.
Why are you committing and ad hominem? Why not stick to having a rational conversation?

Quote from: Arturo
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Quote
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He holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?
Is that what you think? I am male so I only know about being male. Would you think it would be appropriate for a guy to go around saying how hard it is to be a woman?[...]
I'll stop you there and give you a chance to reread what I wrote and correct this seemingly red herring of a response.
It is no more a red herring than what you said to me.
Do you not know what a red herring is? Because I spoke about something directly related to what the video presented and about what you said, while you went off on an unrelated tangent about something neither I said nor was in the video.

Quote from: Arturo
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Back up your claim or retract it. Otherwise I will just take it as bullshit.
My life.[...]
So if I don't know everything about your life, then I don't know what I'm talking about even when not talking about your life? Bullshit.

Quote from: Arturo
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Quote from: Arturo
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Almost everything in life is a matter of amounts instead of dichotomy and everything is a matter of context. The guy in the video concedes to a similar sentiment, especially in the conclusion where he says that he doesn't want to just throw genders out the window and doesn't want extreme changes.
You forgot the part where he said "not yet".[...]
I didn't forget about that part. Do not try to mind read me, you have done so a few times already.
Then why leave it out of your retort? It seems you left it out of the context in which you gave your explanation.
Are you seriously going to try to present a standard where absolutely everything said is mentioned? That is bullshit. Nothing I said indicated that I had forgotten that part and in fact, since I talked about that last part implies that I had remembered it. Try reading what I said again, because it appears that you missed a lot.

Quote from: ArturoAnd if that was mind reading, then what do you call this?
What? You are the one that said that I forgot something, I never made any mention at all into your mind, I only address what you write.

Quote from: Arturo
Quote from: DavinHe holds both societal defined gender roles to equal criticism, but you only mention his criticism of masculinity, why do you do that? Is it because you are a male that you pick up more on that side of the criticism?

Quote
Quote from: Arturo
Going on about the popstars like Jay-Z and Beyonce and Marilyn Manroe and others have only been fake rebels that are prepackaged but only represent that status quo. That people like the status quo because it makes them feel safe. But in my mind, their rebelliousness had nothing to do with gender. My world doesn't revolve around gender identity.
Not sure where you're trying to go with that. Of course not many people's world revolves around gender identity. There are many types of rebellion, that's why the word requires context.

I am sticking to the subject of the video and my personal view of myself. Is this not what you wanted to discuss?
This doesn't make any sense, want to try again?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Magdalena

#10
^^^
Oh, I've missed these conversations.  :grin:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Icarus


Magdalena


"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Magdalena


"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant