Author Topic: Charles Manson is dead  (Read 1357 times)

Dave

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Charles Manson is dead
« on: November 20, 2017, 06:06:10 PM »
And I would say that the world is a better and safer place.

"Safer?" you might ask - yes, listening to an interview with Manson's biographer, Jeff Guinn, that monster had tentacles that extended beyond his almost completely visitor rights free incarceration. His actions and reputation have, it seems, "inspired" many followers even through those prison walls - he did his best to ensure that he and his ideas were not forgotten through sales of his sick artworks.

The picture on Guinn's book shows a person who appears to be an innocent and friendly man, as Guinn said in the interview it is frightening how many can be misled, then and now, by a disturbed but forceful personality. We currently have a prime example of this in power in America.

As Guinn said Manson is an excellent example of why capital punishment, to possibly reduce the chance of a personality cult, is perhaps necessary in extreme cases.

I will try to get a link to the prog later.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16130503-manson
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 06:32:41 PM by Dave »
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Dave

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 06:22:54 PM »
Link to BBC prog, interview is 33 minutes in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09fj9c3

Excellent interview into all aspects of Manson's strategies.
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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 06:30:24 PM »

Dave

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 06:38:23 PM »

No one, your value set is self-negating and therefore, in my opinion, not worthy of substantial response in this case,
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Dave

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 08:16:53 PM »



Examples of Manson's work. Standby to hear of idiots paying huge sums for them now he is dead, if the "art world" performs as usual. They certainly deserve a place in history, but not for the purposes of instilling hatred snd violence or making money.
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 09:03:54 PM »
Even with Manson, no death penalty.  Yes, he was vile. But giving the state the power to kill its own citizens is, in my opinion, contrary to the purpose of the state, which is to ensure the rights of its citizens.  The power to kill is an absolute power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  It will be misused, and has been misused.  Just lock them up and throw away the key, and don't let them be interviewed. 

Dave

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 09:15:53 PM »
Even with Manson, no death penalty.  Yes, he was vile. But giving the state the power to kill its own citizens is, in my opinion, contrary to the purpose of the state, which is to ensure the rights of its citizens.  The power to kill is an absolute power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  It will be misused, and has been misused.  Just lock them up and throw away the key, and don't let them be interviewed.

I understand what you say, Bruce. In this case Manson's influence still leaked out, the seclusion was not 100%. But, chances are, if the bricked him in and fed him through a one inch hole his "legend" would survive with thise prone to follow such behaviour. And, with events like the mass shootings, there seems to be a surplus of such.

It is nearly impossible to contain the current crop and impossible to prevent the disease spreading without near draconian measures and struct regulations.

But yes, quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the watchman? Perhaps a national referendum, spread the responsibility?
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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 11:59:21 PM »
Even with Manson, no death penalty.  Yes, he was vile. But giving the state the power to kill its own citizens is, in my opinion, contrary to the purpose of the state, which is to ensure the rights of its citizens.  The power to kill is an absolute power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  It will be misused, and has been misused.  Just lock them up and throw away the key, and don't let them be interviewed.

My only problem with the death penalty is with the probability of it being misapplied, since killing someone is not a mistake that can be fixed.  In Manson's case I would have had no problem with him being put down like a rabid dog.

Usually I feel sorry for anyone who's died, even a murderer, because death is a sad thing but for Manson I feel nothing.
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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 12:19:24 AM »
He was said to be very charismatic, like many psychopaths are. To me he just looks like a deranged creep.
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 09:21:49 AM »
Even with Manson, no death penalty.  Yes, he was vile. But giving the state the power to kill its own citizens is, in my opinion, contrary to the purpose of the state, which is to ensure the rights of its citizens.  The power to kill is an absolute power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  It will be misused, and has been misused.  Just lock them up and throw away the key, and don't let them be interviewed.

My only problem with the death penalty is with the probability of it being misapplied, since killing someone is not a mistake that can be fixed.  In Manson's case I would have had no problem with him being put down like a rabid dog.

Usually I feel sorry for anyone who's died, even a murderer, because death is a sad thing but for Manson I feel nothing.

You can't fix unjustly jailing someone for 30 years either.
Jailing someone could be considered a violent act, rape and brutality from other inmates is part of the deterrent value of prison. 
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Dave

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 10:14:44 AM »
You can't fix unjustly jailing someone for 30 years either.
Jailing someone could be considered a violent act, rape and brutality from other inmates is part of the deterrent value of prison.

Hmm, how would you protect the rest of society from those who, sane or otherwise, directly or by personal influence, or for personal gain cause the deaths and suffering of those who do not deserve such then, BP?
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Bad Penny II

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 10:54:32 AM »
You can't fix unjustly jailing someone for 30 years either.
Jailing someone could be considered a violent act, rape and brutality from other inmates is part of the deterrent value of prison.

Hmm, how would you protect the rest of society from those who, sane or otherwise, directly or by personal influence, or for personal gain cause the deaths and suffering of those who do not deserve such then, BP?

I'm not averse to the death penalty, apparently it's cheaper to keep them in jail than to kill them but I think there's room for some cost cutting in that equation.  It's not really a big issue for me though.

My point would be killing and brutal incarceration are both unpleasant options.
There are brutal people to be dealt with though.
I think I'd choose a quick death.  Guillotine seems quick and less prone to failure than most of the others.  I'd get to see if you do get a moment of body-less consciousness.
Oh no , we aren't just going to let you choose to die.
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
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Dave

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 11:14:37 AM »
Maybe, unfortunately, humans are inherently violent beings on the whole. We lije to think that we have developed, mostly, beyond the stage of an absolute and immediate need for violence to feed and protect ourselves and our group, but that is not far under the surface of our "civilization". It keeps errupting like a rash of boils.

So, is a kind of  utilitarianism needed? A pragmatic view that says, "Well, it is it not ideal but it offers more positives for society than negatives" ? The life incarceration of one person, not out of retribution or punishment, and no matter how psycholigically "cruel", but in order that more than one innocent person can rest easy? "Innocence", or otherwise, being, of course, a bit of a personal value judgement in some cases.
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 11:57:46 AM »
You can't fix unjustly jailing someone for 30 years either.
Jailing someone could be considered a violent act, rape and brutality from other inmates is part of the deterrent value of prison.

Hmm, how would you protect the rest of society from those who, sane or otherwise, directly or by personal influence, or for personal gain cause the deaths and suffering of those who do not deserve such then, BP?

I'm not averse to the death penalty, apparently it's cheaper to keep them in jail than to kill them but I think there's room for some cost cutting in that equation.  It's not really a big issue for me though.

My point would be killing and brutal incarceration are both unpleasant options.
There are brutal people to be dealt with though.
I think I'd choose a quick death.  Guillotine seems quick and less prone to failure than most of the others. 

If you were imprisoned for life, there would be plenty of options to get yourself killed without the state doing it officially.  You could kill yourself, you could piss off another inmate or gang of inmates,  you could attack a guard and get shot, or try to escape and get shot.  The options would be endless if you didn't want to spend 40 years behind bars. Don't let the state kill its citizens officially, but giving them the option to kill themselves is acceptable.  If Manson had offed himself 30 years ago, few tears would have been shed.

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Re: Charles Manson is dead
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 12:16:16 PM »
You can't fix unjustly jailing someone for 30 years either.
Jailing someone could be considered a violent act, rape and brutality from other inmates is part of the deterrent value of prison.

Hmm, how would you protect the rest of society from those who, sane or otherwise, directly or by personal influence, or for personal gain cause the deaths and suffering of those who do not deserve such then, BP?

I'm not averse to the death penalty, apparently it's cheaper to keep them in jail than to kill them but I think there's room for some cost cutting in that equation.  It's not really a big issue for me though.

My point would be killing and brutal incarceration are both unpleasant options.
There are brutal people to be dealt with though.
I think I'd choose a quick death.  Guillotine seems quick and less prone to failure than most of the others. 

If you were imprisoned for life, there would be plenty of options to get yourself killed without the state doing it officially.  You could kill yourself, you could piss off another inmate or gang of inmates,  you could attack a guard and get shot, or try to escape and get shot.  The options would be endless if you didn't want to spend 40 years behind bars. Don't let the state kill its citizens officially, but giving them the option to kill themselves is acceptable.  If Manson had offed himself 30 years ago, few tears would have been shed.

Perhaps the scenario of a future-fiction novel I cannot remember the title of. On being declared "Pariah" by a court serious crimjnal offenders sre dropped on a very remote island with adequate clothing, a survival toolkit and food for a month - then left to their own devices amongst the other inmates. IIRC prey animals were also regularly dropped into the island to ensure a continuing food supply.

But, any system is open to abuse if administered by humans. Supposing an AI were to decide judgement . . .
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