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Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Started by Gnostic Christian Bishop, November 07, 2017, 05:40:57 PM

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Gnostic Christian Bishop

Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cwOqKfEYTg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other.

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments, veils or beards are two examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

These Golden Rules exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable.

In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

No one

Well, I wouldn't object if certain people were forced to wear a muzzle.

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Pasta Chick

In this context, no, not moral. There are added levels to this as well, specifically that women forced to wear modest clothing are forced to so that men aren't tempted or stumble and fall prey to lust. Therefore both placing full agency for men being trash on women, and opening up blame and punishment for women when men rape them.

Biggus Dickus

I'm not sure what morality has to do with the fairly clear issue of whether it is right or wrong to force people to do something against their will...in this case it is wrong.

Simple.
"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Pasta Chick

I would guess the only case for it being moral is if you were to argue from the assumption religious texts are correct. And we all know the problem with that.

Could be interesting to discuss at what point forcing actions could be considered moral, though (helmet laws, etc)

Biggus Dickus

Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 07, 2017, 09:14:04 PM
I would guess the only case for it being moral is if you were to argue from the assumption religious texts are correct. And we all know the problem with that.

Could be interesting to discuss at what point forcing actions could be considered moral, though (helmet laws, etc)

Interesting as I hadn't thought of how that might apply to mandatory enforcement laws such as wearing a helmet, or seat belt laws, was really only thinking in terms of the religious laws with regards to how people could be forced to dress, etc...but again those laws are so subjective as to be completely lacking ethically.

The helmet and seatbelt laws are certainly compelling topics, on one hand wearing them ensures lives are saved, and I for one think anyone not wearing a helmet while riding a motorcycle or not wearing a seatbelt while riding in a vehicle is a fool, and certainly an argument can be made that it should be a person's own choice as to whether they endanger their own lives by not wearing them, but then again neither of these two things limits a persons freedom to express themselves as they see fit or is limiting real personable freedoms.

I find a seatbelt law to be at least ethical, but telling someone how to dress is certainly not ethical.
"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Icarus

Bruno, using a helmet or a seat belt is quite a different deal than wearing a Yarmulka ( sp. observant jewish beanie) or hijab. One is to hopefully save you life while the other is to hopefully save your soul or her virginity.

I choose the option of seat belts and helmets for my own common sense, selfish, self preservation, choice. The ones who use various garments may or may not have the self preservation motive.  The religious attire is all about the supposed dictates of their god or any other adjudicator of their human worth.


Gnostic Christian Bishop

Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 07, 2017, 07:52:29 PM
In this context, no, not moral. There are added levels to this as well, specifically that women forced to wear modest clothing are forced to so that men aren't tempted or stumble and fall prey to lust. Therefore both placing full agency for men being trash on women, and opening up blame and punishment for women when men rape them.

Well reasoned. I agree.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Quote from: Father Bruno on November 07, 2017, 09:01:43 PM
I'm not sure what morality has to do with the fairly clear issue of whether it is right or wrong to force people to do something against their will...in this case it is wrong.

Simple.

Your use of the word wrong should tell you why I put the question.

If enough wrong headed people see your reply, you might save a few from being honor killed.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 07, 2017, 09:14:04 PM
I would guess the only case for it being moral is if you were to argue from the assumption religious texts are correct. And we all know the problem with that.

Could be interesting to discuss at what point forcing actions could be considered moral, though (helmet laws, etc)

I tried to cover that with my just cause statement.

The helmet law only came into play when someone recognized that many lives could be saved by wearing a helmet.

I happen to like that law thanks to not getting hurt more than I did by driving my bike at a good clip into a car and hitting it head first.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Quote from: Father Bruno on November 07, 2017, 10:02:41 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on November 07, 2017, 09:14:04 PM
I would guess the only case for it being moral is if you were to argue from the assumption religious texts are correct. And we all know the problem with that.

Could be interesting to discuss at what point forcing actions could be considered moral, though (helmet laws, etc)

Interesting as I hadn't thought of how that might apply to mandatory enforcement laws such as wearing a helmet, or seat belt laws, was really only thinking in terms of the religious laws with regards to how people could be forced to dress, etc...but again those laws are so subjective as to be completely lacking ethically.

The helmet and seatbelt laws are certainly compelling topics, on one hand wearing them ensures lives are saved, and I for one think anyone not wearing a helmet while riding a motorcycle or not wearing a seatbelt while riding in a vehicle is a fool, and certainly an argument can be made that it should be a person's own choice as to whether they endanger their own lives by not wearing them, but then again neither of these two things limits a persons freedom to express themselves as they see fit or is limiting real personable freedoms.

I find a seatbelt law to be at least ethical, but telling someone how to dress is certainly not ethical.

Nice reply, except for this ----- "neither of these two things limits a persons freedom to express themselves as they see fit or is limiting real personable freedoms."

I think they do if you think that part of your personal freedoms are negated by following the law.

When I was young and stupid and they changed the seat belt law, I ignored it for that reason.

When I recognized that the law was also there to protect others from me flying about after a hit something, the light went on and I have belted up since.

Perhaps your vie of personal freedom is different. You do not have personal freedom to not belt up unless you do not care about the fine, but to say your personal freedom is not effected I think is incorrect.

Regards
DL