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Re: United States and Torture

Started by Icarus, December 14, 2014, 12:16:09 AM

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Icarus

If those who were tortured were actually complicit in the killing of Americans, or Christians or Jews or Hindus or their own countrymen and women or their own religion, then I am not overly sympathetic. The downside is that torture did not solve the problem nor even diminish it. In fact it may very well have exacerbated the problem. The further problem is that we did not know whether the captives were the actual bad guys, we merely believed that they were. Bottom line; it did more harm than good and it violated our so firmly held claim to superior civility.

Eugeny Anatolievich

I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Steeler on December 13, 2014, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2014, 01:19:39 PM
Quote from: Steeler on December 13, 2014, 02:09:46 AM
In response to your question, sounds to me like he thinks those tactics are not productive.
I have no problem with that. I'm not trying to defend it. I agree that the US should not be torturing as a method of interrogation.
Fact is, we did. I do not feel bad for the bad guys on the shit end of it. That's all I'm saying.

I'm trying to understand you here, because to me you're being rather inconsistent. Why exactly is it do you now think that enhanced interrogation techniques torture isn't the best method?


I don't think I'm being inconsistent at all. I never stated that I thought torture was the best method. I said I simply didn't feel bad for those who were tortured.

Let me word it a little better: why do you think that the US should not be torturing as a method of interrogation? 

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Steeler

#3
Simply put, if we are a civilized nation then maybe we should be a little more civil in our tactics.
I should say that it really isn't a big worry for me though in certain circumstances. If a politician I supported was in favor of those tactics, it would not be enough to sway my vote.

Steeler

Although a year old, I thought this was an interesting read. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. If true, it goes against the idea of nothing being gained.
Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING, just adding to the discussion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10493913/Manhunt-how-the-CIA-traced-Osama-bin-Laden.html

Firebird

Quote from: Steeler on December 14, 2014, 03:54:15 AM
Although a year old, I thought this was an interesting read. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. If true, it goes against the idea of nothing being gained.
Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING, just adding to the discussion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10493913/Manhunt-how-the-CIA-traced-Osama-bin-Laden.html
One "senior manager" in the CIA. How about we check with someone who actually interrogated the suspects? Like one of the FBI agents who interviewed Zubaydah, who completely disputes the assertion that torture is what caused him to talk:

My Tortured Decision

As far as Mohammed goes, here's a Fox News (of all news agencies!) report about the exaggeration of intelligence gathered due to the torture of him:

CIA misrepresented key aspects of brutal interrogation program, according to Senate report





"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Steeler

Well looky there, fair and balanced! :D
Good reads.

Recusant

Unfortunately the first part of this thread was lost, probably forever, in the crash. It began as a discussion of the publicly released portions of the Senate report on the use of torture by the CIA.

For anybody who is interested, there is an excellent series of stories from The Guardian about the background of how the report was produced (including the CIA's efforts to hinder the investigation), and the fallout that resulted from the report. The articles are long, but I'm finding them very interesting and worthwhile. The series begins with "Inside the fight to reveal the CIA's torture secrets" | The Guardian.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


No one

Torture is not a means of extracting information. It is a means of exacting revenge.
If you are willing to dole it out, don't cry when it bites your ass!

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: No one on January 31, 2017, 09:01:32 PM
Torture is not a means of extracting information. It is a means of exacting revenge.
If you are willing to dole it out, don't cry when it bites your ass!

It can create martyrs as well.  ::) 
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


No one

And those martyrs emerge from the crybabies. Those that have the "courage" to dish it out, but behave like petulant children when it comes home to roost.

Recusant

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


xSilverPhinx

If they are crybabies then they aren't something to be emulated but people create and embellish stories about the deaths of others, especially in those circumstances, making heroes and martyrs out of them by their communities.

Does torture extract information? Not anything reliable, apparently.
Is torturing others misplaced anger? Yes.

I would rather go for the jugular, that is, destroy their ideology completely. It's way more difficult than cutting off fingers, waterboarding and keeping naked people in stress positions.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


No one

I am talking torture in general. Against anyone, not just any particular sect. If you are a sadistic serial killer who gets off inflicting pain on your victims. No have no right to cry when the tides turn and someone even more sadistic treats you the same in the stoney lonesome.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: No one on February 03, 2017, 10:45:26 PM
I am talking torture in general. Against anyone, not just any particular sect. If you are a sadistic serial killer who gets off inflicting pain on your victims. No have no right to cry when the tides turn and someone even more sadistic treats you the same in the stoney lonesome.

Been watching Dexter lately?
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey