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Existential Nihilism

Started by Xiilent, June 14, 2012, 07:06:31 PM

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Xiilent

I was recently looking through some memes when i came across the "atheist defenition: the belief that nothing came from nothing, etc" and there was a response "ignorant defenition: not knowing the difference between atheism and nihilism." So i decided to google what nihilism was actually and while reading through the different sects of it, I found I have a sort of existential nihilism in me. For anyone that doesn't know, that means the belief that there is no purpose of man kind. And from my understanding, I don't think there really is. Those little bacteria billions of years ago just evolved into humans overtime and now we're here, but I don't see that we as a species have any role in what the universe has planned. I'm not saying that man kind cannot do great/horrific things, i'm just saying that since I don't believe that there's a god, I don't believe we evolved to have some "purpose" besides live and die. I'm still a newby to the subject so i'd love to hear what you guys think.

En_Route

Quote from: Xiilent on June 14, 2012, 07:06:31 PM
I was recently looking through some memes when i came across the "atheist defenition: the belief that nothing came from nothing, etc" and there was a response "ignorant defenition: not knowing the difference between atheism and nihilism." So i decided to google what nihilism was actually and while reading through the different sects of it, I found I have a sort of existential nihilism in me. For anyone that doesn't know, that means the belief that there is no purpose of man kind. And from my understanding, I don't think there really is. Those little bacteria billions of years ago just evolved into humans overtime and now we're here, but I don't see that we as a species have any role in what the universe has planned. I'm not saying that man kind cannot do great/horrific things, i'm just saying that since I don't believe that there's a god, I don't believe we evolved to have some "purpose" besides live and die. I'm still a newby to the subject so i'd love to hear what you guys think.

The question of purpose is a fascinating one. I agree that, as far as we can tell, our existence here serves no ulterior purpose.Personally I don't think that the idea of an ultimate "purpose"  makes much sense, because you can always  push the quest for meaning up another level. So if we say our purpose is to improve our species (not that I would say that) the obvious rejoinder is-well what is the purpose of improving our species?, and so and so on. I would baulkat the notion that the universe has planned anything- it's just there, again, so far as we can tell. 
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

Crow

No purpose in the "grand scheme of things" but we make our own if we like. That's my take on it.
Retired member.

Stevil

Some people, it seems, (even many atheists), believe it is their purpose to be moral and some even believe it is their purpose to stop others being immoral.

En_Route

Quote from: Crow on June 14, 2012, 09:04:50 PM
No purpose in the "grand scheme of things" but we make our own if we like. That's my take on it.

That's the classic existential position. I personally think in terms of my personal goals rather than any overarching purpose,but in practical terms that's probably an over-nice distinction. It's the "I didn't ask to be here but here I am,, so how do I make the best of it?" school of thought.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Crow on June 14, 2012, 09:04:50 PM
No purpose in the "grand scheme of things" but we make our own if we like. That's my take on it.

That's a huge question.  How can something from nothing ponder where it came from and what, if any, is its purpose when the creator of the something, if you will, is nothing?

Stevil

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 10:54:05 PM
That's a huge question.  How can something from nothing ponder where it came from and what, if any, is its purpose when the creator of the something, if you will, is nothing?
What relevance does a creator (if one exists) have with regards to the ability of systems to ponder?

For example if you look to evolution you can see that complex systems developed from non complex systems, we are much more complex and "smarter" than our distant ancestors. Our creator could simply be unintelligent autonomous forces e.g. gravity, electromagnitism, nuclear forces. Can you prove otherwise?

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 10:54:05 PM
That's a huge question.  How can something from nothing ponder where it came from and what, if any, is its purpose when the creator of the something, if you will, is nothing?
What relevance does a creator (if one exists) have with regards to the ability of systems to ponder?

None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator?  We came from something.  Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction.  The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.

Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
For example if you look to evolution you can see that complex systems developed from non complex systems, we are much more complex and "smarter" than our distant ancestors. Our creator could simply be unintelligent autonomous forces e.g. gravity, electromagnitism, nuclear forces. Can you prove otherwise?

I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm simply stating that it's a huge question.  A question, maybe just to me, which is profoundly deep.  How can a thinking, reasoning, life-form that came from nothing create abstract thoughts--that nothing apart from this one life-form so far, has evolved to do?

I get the feeling you just like to poke at me for being a Christian and holding certain thoughts.  Is it impossible in your mind for me to have thoughts apart from "God" along with the atheist?

Ali


AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Ali on June 14, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
What spark do you mean?

The spark, so to speak, that began evolution.

fester30


Stevil

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator?  We came from something.  Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction.  The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
I have no belief in a one off spark.
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.


Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm simply stating that it's a huge question.  A question, maybe just to me, which is profoundly deep.  How can a thinking, reasoning, life-form that came from nothing create abstract thoughts--that nothing apart from this one life-form so far, has evolved to do?
Yes it is an interesting question, one that humans don't yet know the answer to.
But personally I don't feel the need to make the assumptions:
- Humans are the only intelligent material beings in our universe
- Our universe is the only one in existence
- Self awareness, consciousness requires a creator with self awareness and consciousness

We all have our way of pondering the answers, you presume god, I presume infinity and autonomous, eternal forces. We are both presumptuous :-)

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I get the feeling you just like to poke at me for being a Christian and holding certain thoughts.  Is it impossible in your mind for me to have thoughts apart from "God" along with the atheist?
I don't try to poke fun at you. I don't mind people being Christians, I don't mind that you are a Christian. I don't like the intollerance and oppression that some Christians bring upon society, but you have a good understanding of keeping Christian morality separate for societies laws, so I really like that about you.
I do poke at your mind because I am putting in genuine effort to try and understand Christian thinking, but to date it is a bridge too far for me.

Siz

Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator?  We came from something.  Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction.  The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
I have no belief in a one off spark.
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.

Nuh'uh! You'll have to expand on this one please.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator?  We came from something.  Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction.  The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
I have no belief in a one off spark.
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.

Probably the type of thinking that hurts my head and therefore I am not "good" at.


Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm simply stating that it's a huge question.  A question, maybe just to me, which is profoundly deep.  How can a thinking, reasoning, life-form that came from nothing create abstract thoughts--that nothing apart from this one life-form so far, has evolved to do?
Yes it is an interesting question, one that humans don't yet know the answer to.
But personally I don't feel the need to make the assumptions:
- Humans are the only intelligent material beings in our universe
- Our universe is the only one in existence
- Self awareness, consciousness requires a creator with self awareness and consciousness

I've not presumed my belief here, but simply made the statement that I am in awe of something, evolved from whatever nothing/something you agree to, having evolved this self awareness and deeper thinking than simply survival.

Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
We all have our way of pondering the answers, you presume god, I presume infinity and autonomous, eternal forces. We are both presumptuous :-)

Yes.  I agree.

Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I get the feeling you just like to poke at me for being a Christian and holding certain thoughts.  Is it impossible in your mind for me to have thoughts apart from "God" along with the atheist?
I don't try to poke fun at you. I don't mind people being Christians, I don't mind that you are a Christian. I don't like the intollerance and oppression that some Christians bring upon society, but you have a good understanding of keeping Christian morality separate for societies laws, so I really like that about you.
I do poke at your mind because I am putting in genuine effort to try and understand Christian thinking, but to date it is a bridge too far for me.

Every question seems like an attack.  I'll try and view it as you state here.  :)

En_Route

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:27:06 PM
Quote from: Ali on June 14, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
What spark do you mean?

The spark, so to speak, that began evolution.

The problem with the prime mover argument is of course that it goes on forever. Who created the creator who created the spark? And so on. The theists say it is God, the creator who came from nothing which rather destroys the logic they are trying to establish. There is a further problem with this kind of deductive reason in that we are assuming the laws of cause and effect that we observe in the natural world we inhabit must hold true for everything. In fact we already know that at the quantum level, we are simply not  mentally equipped to envisage what is going on and we have to resort to analogies drawn from our world.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).