Happy Atheist Forum

Since we were getting off thread with a very discussable subject I thought a new thread might be helpful.

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 08, 2018, 11:20:28 AM

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 07:43:46 AM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 03:11:00 AM

Hmm...it's an exaggerated caricature but that seems to be how many previous generations see millennials -- a cellphone attached, self absorbed, entitled and basically idiotic generation. ::)

Um, you mean, um, they're not!?

To be fair, the Boomer generation pretty much screwed the Millennials over but good.  Sure, some of us were out on the streets protesting and trying to better the world but way too many of us where just grubbing for money, using up everything other generations had built up and not replacing it, as if it would all re-generate magically.

You are very correct there, Books! As a baby boomer myself, though not a greedy money grabber, I am still very aware that even my modest glorified bedsitter and comfortable standard of living is beyond some of the youngsters I know in decent jobs. The single ones being the worst off in some ways, those with both working and no kids, two incomes and no dependants seems to be the requiredcstatus for homevownership these dsys for the majority.

My exfriend's son, working in a decent job in Royal Mail, and his wife, a social worker, rent a one bedroom flat, plus a large walk-in cupboard, costing them about £700/month in Cheltenham. I gave them £1k as a wedding present and have forgiven the £3k I "loaned" to replace their car - on the understanding that they put the money they would have psid me back into a "house deposit account". I also support two kids charities with monthly donations.

I do not exactly feel "guilty" that my, fairly modest (compared to whst I would be earning were I still working), income exceeds my essential outgoings considerably, but it does prompt me to hrlp where I feel that I can make a difference.

Youth has probably had its pressures in most ages, especially amongst the "entitled", or, at keast, those with aspirations to that status. I never felt "entitled" as a kid but the pressures of every aspect of fashion, clothes, technology, body shape etc, on a generation that has much more "aspirations to/entitlement" is a dangerous trend I think.

Maybe we baby boomers are greedy, but are we also the last generation, as a whole, in the first world that felt we had to fight for and earn our luxuries? The things which we thought off as luxuries now seem to be essentials to the status of many more kids.

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 07:43:46 AM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 03:11:00 AM

Quote from: Icarus on January 08, 2018, 02:20:35 AM
Not so funny vid.  I was an employer for almost 40 years and have done a lot of interviews.  In fairness this one is a spoof.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo0KjdDJr1c

Hmm...it's an exaggerated caricature but that seems to be how many previous generations see millennials -- a cellphone attached, self absorbed, entitled and basically idiotic generation. ::)

Um, you mean, um, they're not!?

Ok, not the millennials, entirely, maybe the next generation, oh, 95% ? What you said about the effects of excessive screentime is worrying. Thpugh we previously worried about excessive TV, then excessive gaming, neither of those had the social impact of (anti)social media and "fake news"' - if only because there was not the "any time, anywhere, 24/'7-global" pervasive access currently available in our povkets or bags. It takes a degree of msturity to ignore such things, let's hope the coming generations have a chance to achieve that, the instability of puberty is bad enough without such influences!

Excessive screentime might not have a considerable social impact, but it may be acting on developing brains in which the reward pathway (involving the pleasure neurotransmitter dopamine) is almost constantly activated, generating addiction in young children. Such children also do not have the opportunities to acquire important skills such as tolerance for boredom, and developing healthy mechanisms to cope with boredom.

I base these observations on my 8 year old niece, who spends upwards of 5 hours per day on the computer -- playing games and watching youtube -- besides another good number of hours watching TV now that it's the holidays. She is already addicted, and I worry that could result in unwanted tendencies such as the tendency to get addicted to things, seeking that dopamine rush. I think this current generation of children will be the I WANT IT NOW! generation...technologically savvy but impatient and with little focus if environmental conditions allow it.

I know that there was always a talk of "too much of this and that is bad", but nowadays with advances in neuroscience techniques the impacts excessive screentime can have on still immature, developing brains can be better investigated.   

Of course there are good aspects to children being exposed to technology for such lengthy periods of time, my niece was a poor reader until she felt really motivated to read the words appearing on the screen, for instance. 

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 12:15:59 PM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 03:11:00 AM

Hmm...it's an exaggerated caricature but that seems to be how many previous generations see millennials -- a cellphone attached, self absorbed, entitled and basically idiotic generation. ::)

Um, you mean, um, they're not!?

As an older millennial myself, I resent that question! :P

By the time I was 21-22 years old (2007 -2008), an age when most are finishing their university degrees and joining the workforce, the world went into economic crisis. I think to this day the lack of good prospects coupled with rising prices really influence behaviour. Many younger millennials these days seem in general to be rather aimless. What's the point of going to university, for instance, when these are no adequate jobs for you when you finish?   

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 01:19:06 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 12:15:59 PM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 03:11:00 AM

Hmm...it's an exaggerated caricature but that seems to be how many previous generations see millennials -- a cellphone attached, self absorbed, entitled and basically idiotic generation. ::)

Um, you mean, um, they're not!?

As an older millennial myself, I resent that question! :P

By the time I was 21-22 years old (2007 -2008), an age when most are finishing their university degrees and joining the workforce, the world went into economic crisis. I think to this day the lack of good prospects coupled with rising prices really influence behaviour. Many younger millennials these days seem in general to be rather aimless. What's the point of going to university, for instance, when these are no adequate jobs for you when you finish?   

Perhsps I am thinking of the "true millenials", 17 - 18yos!

Regarding screentime, and including texting etc, I am still looking for that picture of a Spanish uni student "social club" where only two out of the fifty odd were actually talking, every other student was staring at a screen. OK, it is still a form of socialising but, I wonder how many were taking part in erudite discussion (like wot this am)  am how many checking the latest pop-video or what their friends are up to or . . .

We are talking quality here, folks!

On the financial side: I recognise the impact that the Crash of '88 had, a crash that can be, effectively, blamed on baby boomers and the generation that followed them, the one's in positions to effect and authorise those deals at the time - as an expression of human greed. And there is still a fesr that regulation and controls are sufficiently lax for it to hsppy agsin - if a major computer virus or glitch does not crash it in, in microseconds, first.

If the millennisls hate us baby booners much of that hate is probably justified - the trick is, how to train them not to foul it up for their own future. On the other side I very often hear of parents and grandparents helping the youngsters out.

On the subject of university education: many of the polytechnic colleges in the UK became unis and several new ones were opened. There are now so many students at "low grade" unis now whose degrees are going to be little better than the old vocational certs and diplomas those old colleges taught for. Unless those degrees have a practical work experience element of a year, not just the summer hols, some engineering employers tend to be not so impressed. Not sure how many unis involve potential employers with course structure design.

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
On the subject of university education: many of the polytechnic colleges in the UK became unis and several new ones were opened. There are now so many students at "low grade" unis now whose degrees are going to be little better than the old vocational certs and diplomas those old colleges taught for. Unless those degrees have a practical work experience element of a year, not just the summer hols, some engineering employers tend to be not so impressed. Not sure how many unis involve potential employers with course structure design.

Looks like another bubble...even in Brazil the number of second or third rate colleges and universities that offer higher education seems to have tripled or more, but there are no jobs for everybody with a tertiary degree. Why on Earth go to university so you can flip burgers at McDonald's?

I am reminded of a postdoc fellow at the lab who had to waitress in a café because she didn't reapply for government funding (postdoc grants last for only a year at a time) for some reason. She's a woman who is extremely qualified...working as a waitress to make ends meet. And that's the current reality. What happens is qualified, productive people go live abroad, and that's extremely bad for the country. 

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 02:46:28 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
On the subject of university education: many of the polytechnic colleges in the UK became unis and several new ones were opened. There are now so many students at "low grade" unis now whose degrees are going to be little better than the old vocational certs and diplomas those old colleges taught for. Unless those degrees have a practical work experience element of a year, not just the summer hols, some engineering employers tend to be not so impressed. Not sure how many unis involve potential employers with course structure design.

Looks like another bubble...even in Brazil the number of second or third rate colleges and universities that offer higher education seems to have tripled or more, but there are no jobs for everybody with a tertiary degree. Why on Earth go to university so you can flip burgers at McDonald's?

I am reminded of a postdoc fellow at the lab who had to waitress in a café because she didn't reapply for government funding (postdoc grants last for only a year at a time) for some reason. She's a woman who is extremely qualified...working as a waitress to make ends meet. And that's the current reality. What happens is qualified, productive people go live abroad, and that's extremely bad for the country.

Yup, like exporting the future.

Baby boomers were born right in the sweet spot after a hard working generation built everything up from the last time people forgot that things have to be paid for. So they grow up with all this stuff (great and stable economy, roads, highways, job prospects, upward mobility, safety nets, education, houses), and don't really have to build anything yet. Then they spend the next 50 or so years systematically dismantling all the things that pay for all those things acting like everything should "pay for itself" because they refuse to look at the whole of history and instead cherry picked their favorite parts of everything.

Then here comes the Millennials, they look around and see chaotic economy where everything is risky, shitty roads, tolled highways, "entry level" jobs asking for 5 years experience, a job ladder with rungs so far apart that climbing up is near impossible, more limited safety nets, education that leaves them in debt for most of their life, houses that are growing farther and farther away from affordability... etc. A crumbling world because no one is paying for anything because taxes are now bad for some irrational reasons.

The economy was getting better and better when the Boomers started taking control. People were able to take risks, small businesses were booming and staying alive and productive for years. Money was flowing around from the top to the bottom. And then the Boomers happened. They looked at a great economy, then supported and voted away all the things that helped keep it going like that. They got rid of one of the Glass-Steagle acts but only the one limiting risky bank practices, they kept the one where the Federal Government would still back the banks. So what happened? The bank risked shitloads of money, lost, and the government bailed them out. There are many other things, but they all fall along those lines.

For over three decades, the infrastructure budget has been inadequate to meet the demands, and keeps getting cut. But they don't want to pay for the roads they use, they just want to complain about all the potholes.

Boomers grew up and gained a job market that helped protect worker's rights. They took that and eroded the worker's rights back to people working 80+ hours a week and still living in poverty. And don't even try to talk about moving up the ladder. With the inequality levels getting close to pre-Great Depression levels, the ladder is so spread out that getting up to the next rung is proving to be mush less likely. In the Boomers generation, jobs cycled around, and flowed. Today the flow is almost stopped. There are a lot of causes for this, but all the causes trace back to policies supported and enacted by Boomers.

And then there are the safety nets for when a person falls down on their luck. Boomers would be able to bounce back up because they wouldn't lose out too much and then get right back into working again. Somehow, Boomers think that shouldn't happen anymore and have supported and voted the net away. There is hardly any bouncing back all anymore and it's more like letting the people down to poverty slower than it is bouncing them back into working.

Boomers were able to save up for a year of college by working a summer job, and still have enough left over to by a car. But since the Boomers had taken over, College costs have increased more than almost any other market. Converting the costs of college that most Boomers had to pay into inflated 2017 dollars, a Boomer could pay for ALL FOUR years of college for the low low price of less than $4000. That would barely pay for half of one year at a cheap college today. And yet the Boomers refuse to think that there is a problem there.

And there there are houses and rent. Increased so much over the years. When I moved into college, I got a place for $260/month. That same place now just 15 years later, even though it's still shitty, is going for $800/month. If you convert $260 in 2003 into 2017 dollars (https://www.saving.org/inflation/inflation.php?amount=260) it comes to $357, less than half the monthly rent. Is the place suddenly in a great neighborhood? Crime is about the same but the average income of the area has gone down. And while this isn't a problem directly caused by Boomers, Boomers have refused to do anything about it and have instead turned to complaining that the Millennials are just whiners.

In short: Boomers don't get to complain that any other generation is lazy, entitled, self absorbed, idiotic, or pretty much anything else until they stop being five times worse in all respects.

How To Confuse A Millenial (http://thechive.com/2016/11/23/millennials-respond-to-baby-boomers-complaining-about-this-generation-31-photos/)

In the UK the baby boomers came after the loss of life and the destruction caused by WW2. There were lots of jobs going, lots of rebuilding of homes and infrastructure.

Industry had been almost revolutionised by manufacturing techniques and technologies developed as part of the war effort. Lots of minds, attitudes, rules and philosophies were changing. It all made for a fairly booming work environment by the late 40s - 60s, unlike the aftermath of WW1 (graph does not want to load, see here) (https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/780/unemployment/unemployment-rates-history/).

So, yes, the "wealth" of the 1970s onwards were built on the high employment status of the preceding 20 odd years, combination of technology, need, attitude and availability? I should add that we also suffered a large number of strikes, some possibly encoyrages by the rise of Communism, some by greed but some because of employment practices that were going out of date (but are creeping back in agsin as "zero hours contracts" etc,)

Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 08, 2018, 03:47:56 PM
How To Confuse A Millenial (http://thechive.com/2016/11/23/millennials-respond-to-baby-boomers-complaining-about-this-generation-31-photos/)

I am going to spread that as wide as I can!

Thanks PC?

If history is used as an example, as long as the Millennials and beyond fight against the Baby Boomers, everything will get much better. Then the generation after those two will look around at how great everything is, take all the hard work of the previous generations, ignore large parts of history, and slowly destroy everything again. They will be the new Baby Boomers.

Unless the current Baby Boomers keep fucking everything up even more.

And I know that not all of them are bad. But their generation as a whole is the worst we've had since the generation that caused the Great Depression.

Quote from: Davin on January 08, 2018, 04:33:26 PM
If history is used as an example, as long as the Millennials and beyond fight against the Baby Boomers, everything will get much better. Then the generation after those two will look around at how great everything is, take all the hard work of the previous generations, ignore large parts of history, and slowly destroy everything again. They will be the new Baby Boomers.

Unless the current Baby Boomers keep fucking everything up even more.

And I know that not all of them are bad. But their generation as a whole is the worst we've had since the generation that caused the Great Depression.

Hmm, baby boomers - if we are going to use that term strictly - seem to be born between 1940 something up to the mid 1960s, that leaves some to continue working until, say, 2030ish, assuming  retiring at about 65 (though in the UK the retirement age is creeping later). That is a time when most early millennials should be hitting in the latter part of their peak performance years; education, experience plus physical ability. But, of course, they have to get those jobs first to get the experience . . . And the movers and shakers, the very top men, tend to stretch their work or influence out until they drop of their perches - or get pushed.

And there is not exactly an industrial industry boom in the West at the moment, China has taken a lot of that work. Though that might be slowly changing. We need to work more on the modern physical technologies, new materials etc, but automated manufacturing may be built into many of those.

Geez, attacking a whole generation is painting with a pretty broad brush.  We were born 1946 to 1963, so we didn't start reaching voting until 1964, and that was just the first group of us.  I got there in 1970, and the youngest of us could vote in 1981.  The first Boomer President was Clinton.   I'm not seeing how we screwed everything up.  We split fairly evenly along party lines, so when we were voting we were largely canceling ourselves out, and the difference in elections could have been made up by other generations, who were voting, too.  I don't think you can lay everything at the feet of one generation.

Came across this quote:

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint."


Sounds like it could have been out of the mouth of a baby boomer right? It seems generational discord is one common thread throughout history.

Millennials -- why are they the worst?

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 08, 2018, 06:37:35 PM
Geez, attacking a whole generation is painting with a pretty broad brush.  We were born 1946 to 1963, so we didn't start reaching voting until 1964, and that was just the first group of us.  I got there in 1970, and the youngest of us could vote in 1981.  The first Boomer President was Clinton.   I'm not seeing how we screwed everything up.  We split fairly evenly along party lines, so when we were voting we were largely canceling ourselves out, and the difference in elections could have been made up by other generations, who were voting, too.  I don't think you can lay everything at the feet of one generation.

Hrm, voting form 1970 and beyond is the exact voting period where things started to turn from responsible tax payers to voting to eliminate taxes. If we look at the voting by age (https://decisiondeskhq.com/data-dives/how-the-2016-vote-broke-down-by-race-gender-and-age/) Not very split down the middle.

And the country that we have now, is the trending result of the voting practices over that time until now. If we look at the votes in terms of generations, the policies and politicians that are supported by the Baby Boomers are the very policies and politicians in action right now. Not so true for younger generations.

And of course not all the blame can be placed on one generation, blacks, hispanics/latinos of that generation are mostly not voting that way so maybe it's mostly the fault of white people from that generation.

If "that" generation is going to go around bemoaning "other" generations, then it's perfectly fair to apply it equally back to them. Or maybe this is on of those, "do as I say and not as I do," things was so popular from parents out of that generation.

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 08, 2018, 07:05:28 PM
Millennials -- why are they the worst?

Good link, Silver, and I have seen quotes similar to that from Hesiod.  Al Capp wrote:

QuoteToday's younger generation is no worse than my own. We were just as ignorant and repulsive as they are, but nobody listened to us.

What goes around comes around.

Quote from: Dave on January 08, 2018, 02:23:54 PM

Perhsps I am thinking of the "true millenials", 17 - 18yos!

According to this list, that would actually be Generation Z:

The Lost Generation, also known as the Generation of 1914 in Europe, is a term originating with Gertrude Stein to describe those who fought in World War I. The members of the lost generation were typically born between 1883 and 1900.

The G.I. Generation, is the generation that includes the veterans who fought in World War II. They were born from around 1901 to 1924, coming of age during the Great Depression. Journalist Tom Brokaw described U.S members of this cohort as the Greatest Generation in a book of the same name.

The Silent Generation, also known as the Lucky Few, were born from approximately 1925 to 1942. It includes some who fought in World War II, most of those who fought the Korean War and many during the Vietnam War.

The Baby Boomers are the generation that were born mostly following World War II. There are no precise dates when the cohort birth years start and end. Typically, they range from the early-to-mid 1940s and end from 1960 to 1964. Increased birth rates were observed during the post–World War II baby boom making them a relatively large demographic cohort.

Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation following the baby boomers. Demographers and researchers typically use starting birth years ranging from the early-to-mid 1960s and ending birth years in the early 1980s. The term has also been used in different times and places for a number of different subcultures or countercultures since the 1950s.  In the U.S., some called Generation Xers the "baby bust" generation because of the drop in the birth rate following the baby boom. The drop in fertility rates in America began in the late 1950s. But according to authors and demographers William Strauss and Neil Howe (who use 1961 to 1981 for Gen X birth years), there are approximately 88.5 million Gen Xers in the U.S. today.

Millennials, also known as Generation Y, were born in early to mid-1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. As of April 2016, the Millennials surpassed the Baby Boomers in size in the U.S., with 76 million Boomers and 77 million Millennials.

Generation Z, also known as the iGeneration, Post-Millennials, Homeland Generation, or Plurals is the cohort of people born after the Millennials. Demographers and researchers typically use starting birth years ranging from the mid-1990s to the mid-2000s, while there is little consensus yet regarding ending birth years. A significant aspect of this generation is the widespread usage of the Internet from a young age.

That was a good post Sandy. It sorts out the possible confusion of who is from what time interval.  I reckon then that I am a member of the "silent generation".  That is a misnomer because old bastards like me are sometimes pretty boisterous.

I can both defend the gen Ys and also damn them.  Truth to tell there are some plenty sharp, ambitious, hard working, intelligent, responsible gen Y people and some parasitic gimme more types who are not reality based.  I do not think that we can indict a whole generation or even a part of it because there are some of that generation who are not pulling their own weight and have little or no apparent desire to do so.

The young woman in Silvers Ted vid is going to be alright.  I might not agree altogether with what she is selling but I am cautiously confident that she and the ones like her are going to run the world with reasonable wisdom.   We old ones must not lose sight of the fact that those kids are the ones who will, pretty soon, steer the nation and other nations into whatever the future holds.

Quote from: Icarus on January 08, 2018, 11:34:44 PM
...parasitic gimme more types who are not reality based. 

Now I've got Britney Spear's 'Gimme More' song stuck in my head!  :'(

Quote from: Davin on January 08, 2018, 07:39:49 PM

If "that" generation is going to go around bemoaning "other" generations, then it's perfectly fair to apply it equally back to them. Or maybe this is on of those, "do as I say and not as I do," things was so popular from parents out of that generation.

I'm not bemoaning any particular generation.  That would be a gross over-generalization that is fraught with fallacy.  When you start dumping all blacks, or all whites, or all Boomers, or any other group, into a stereotyped bucket, seems like you are on a slippery slope. 

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 09, 2018, 06:15:31 PM

Quote from: Davin on January 08, 2018, 07:39:49 PM

If "that" generation is going to go around bemoaning "other" generations, then it's perfectly fair to apply it equally back to them. Or maybe this is on of those, "do as I say and not as I do," things was so popular from parents out of that generation.

I'm not bemoaning any particular generation.  That would be a gross over-generalization that is fraught with fallacy.  When you start dumping all blacks, or all whites, or all Boomers, or any other group, into a stereotyped bucket, seems like you are on a slippery slope.

Good thing that your seemings seem to mean nothing important then.

When talking about things on a certain scale, it is implied that the things discussed occur at that scale. If we talk about how single person does one thing or another, talking about how all white men act doesn't really mean anything because all meaning dies in the process of trying to apply the faulty comparison. Just like when we're talking about generations, saying that individuals do one thing or other in spite of the majority of the group doesn't really mean anything because the faulty comparison voids all meaning.

No slippery slope here for me, but you might want to be careful.