Meditation as an atheist

[Gawen]

Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.

[penfold]

Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.

I don't think meditation is about an inward search; nor for that matter is it about analysing oneself. If anything self-analysis is one of the most troublesome distractions when trying to meditate. The object is to be present and aware but without engaging critical or intellectual faculties.

Having said that if outward actions help you then fine. We should be pluralists about this, what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.

[Gawen]

Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.

I don't think meditation is about an inward search; nor for that matter is it about analysing oneself. If anything self-analysis is one of the most troublesome distractions when trying to meditate. The object is to be present and aware but without engaging critical or intellectual faculties.

Having said that if outward actions help you then fine. We should be pluralists about this, what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.

But...but...but...why in the world would one wish to voluntarily give up their critical, intellectual faculties? And why go the route of trying to do this for an hour or so? Why not just take a shroom, thereby gaining several hours of intellectual freedom?

It all seems counter productive and counter intuitive to me.

[Sweetdeath]

A shroom like in super Mario?  8D

[Tank]

Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.

I don't think meditation is about an inward search; nor for that matter is it about analysing oneself. If anything self-analysis is one of the most troublesome distractions when trying to meditate. The object is to be present and aware but without engaging critical or intellectual faculties.

Having said that if outward actions help you then fine. We should be pluralists about this, what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.

But...but...but...why in the world would one wish to voluntarily give up their critical, intellectual faculties? And why go the route of trying to do this for an hour or so? Why not just take a shroom, thereby gaining several hours of intellectual freedom?

It all seems counter productive and counter intuitive to me.

Intuition and imagination are also in the scope of human capabilities. One can suffer from 'analysis paralysis' a point where logic overcomes the ability to make the irrational mental jump that takes one from a state of confusion to understanding in a way that rational deductions can't. We are all ignorant of more things than we know, the sum total of human knowledge is so vast that no one person could possibly know everything, therefore there are times when ones knowledge base cripples one's intellectual capacities and there are also times when existing solutions/processes are not valid ways to solve a problem. In these cases letting our 'neural net' explore the irrational can (and I use the word advisedly) come up with a solution that our logical/rational thought processes may not. This is exactly what happens sometimes when one dreams. Keeping your mind in a straight jacket is not always a good thing.

[Gawen]

A shroom like in super Mario?  8D

heehee..

[Gawen]

Intuition and imagination are also in the scope of human capabilities.

I can agree with that.

One can suffer from 'analysis paralysis' a point where logic overcomes the ability to make the irrational mental jump that takes one from a state of confusion to understanding in a way that rational deductions can't.

I haven't been in a situation whereby over thinking something has paralyzed my ability to make a decision. I would think that people who suffer from something like this have cognitive difficulties. At any road, coming to such an impasse, all one needs do is talk to someone? Ask advice? Opinions? 

We are all ignorant of more things than we know, the sum total of human knowledge is so vast that no one person could possibly know everything, therefore there are times when ones knowledge base cripples one's intellectual capacities and there are also times when existing solutions/processes are not valid ways to solve a problem. In these cases letting our 'neural net' explore the irrational can (and I use the word advisedly) come up with a solution that our logical/rational thought processes may not. This is exactly what happens sometimes when one dreams. Keeping your mind in a straight jacket is not always a good thing.

Of all the different logical and rational ways to make a decision or seek advice, opinion and/or knowledge to make that decision, the willingly shutting down of cognition to look into the Ouija board of the mind is exactly what theists do. They ask God. Unless I am missing the point, I see no real difference in that and "exploring the irrational" through meditation.

[Tank]

We are all ignorant of more things than we know, the sum total of human knowledge is so vast that no one person could possibly know everything, therefore there are times when ones knowledge base cripples one's intellectual capacities and there are also times when existing solutions/processes are not valid ways to solve a problem. In these cases letting our 'neural net' explore the irrational can (and I use the word advisedly) come up with a solution that our logical/rational thought processes may not. This is exactly what happens sometimes when one dreams. Keeping your mind in a straight jacket is not always a good thing.

Of all the different logical and rational ways to make a decision or seek advice, opinion and/or knowledge to make that decision, the willingly shutting down of cognition to look into the Ouija board of the mind is exactly what theists do. They ask God. Unless I am missing the point, I see no real difference in that and "exploring the irrational" through meditation.

Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place. If you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.

When I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb. I don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.

[Gawen]

Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place.

Excellent point! I overlooked it.

If you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.

You see, this is where I differ, and perhaps I'm lacking for it as well. But you come back in the quote below:

When I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb.

Yes. To clear the mind. That is one thing whereas meditation is another. And that is where I differ.

I don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.

This is what I do. But I don't consider it "meditation"...at least in the classic sense.

[Tank]

Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place.

Excellent point! I overlooked it.

If you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.

You see, this is where I differ, and perhaps I'm lacking for it as well. But you come back in the quote below:

When I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb.

Yes. To clear the mind. That is one thing whereas meditation is another. And that is where I differ.

I don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.

This is what I do. But I don't consider it "meditation"...at least in the classic sense.

Well I wouldn't consider it 'meditation' either and as I haven't tried meditation yet meybe I should

[Gawen]

Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place.

Excellent point! I overlooked it.

If you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.

You see, this is where I differ, and perhaps I'm lacking for it as well. But you come back in the quote below:

When I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb.

Yes. To clear the mind. That is one thing whereas meditation is another. And that is where I differ.

I don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.

This is what I do. But I don't consider it "meditation"...at least in the classic sense.

Well I wouldn't consider it 'meditation' either and as I haven't tried meditation yet meybe I should

Honestly, Tank, I'd rather go flying or shooting or ride my bike to clear my mind. Not that flying or shooting or motorcycle riding is conducive in themselves to a solution I'm looking for, but I know you've had the times when you're nowhere connected to a problem and whatever it is you're doing at the moment, a solution pops up? Flying, shooting and riding my bike are what I call Brain Draino. It works for me and I feel it more productive than possibly sitting like a pretzel and chanting. I do know this much, I'm having fun draining my brain.

I say it again; it works for me. If meditating works for others, who am I to say otherwise? Whatever blows up your bridge, I always say.


Well, I don't always say that as I just made it up...*chucklin*

[penfold]

But...but...but...why in the world would one wish to voluntarily give up their critical, intellectual faculties? And why go the route of trying to do this for an hour or so? Why not just take a shroom, thereby gaining several hours of intellectual freedom?

It all seems counter productive and counter intuitive to me.

Its not about 'giving up' one's critical or intellectual faculties at all. They are still there when you stop meditating. Meditation is not about working things out, or trying to acquire knowledge (though adopting such a peaceful mindset can lead to insight at times).

Meditation is about learning to be happy. It is about living well, not about discerning truths. When evaluating meditative and mindfulness practices one should look at the effects it has on the person.

The 17th Century Zen scholar Man-An said of the regular practitioner: "Concentration of right mindfulness is a state of absorption that is in oneself twenty-four hours a day, but one does not even know it consciously. Even though you work all day, you do not get tired out, and even if you sit alone or stand silently for a long time, you to not get bored."

To me it is the results of meditation and mindfulness that are important. As I said earlier the reasons I practice are:

Since doing it regularly, I have found that my attention span is longer, I have become a better listener, I have become kinder. It has even improved my sex life. Most importantly I am happier.

As for mushrooms....

I spent many years experimenting with entheogenics. I came to three conclusions:

1) MDMA* is a much nicer and more forgiving drug than any "true" hallucinogenic.
2) There is no deep truth slumbering in these drugs. (Beyond the admittedly awesome revelation as to the plasticity of our perceptions)
3) There is a risk you can really fuck yourself up. My own experimentation came to an end after a horrendous experience on psilocybin mushrooms, the psychological scars of which took me a couple of years, and a course of anti-depressants, to really get over.

Still, I would never advocate against their use; but do take care.

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*Remember kids: If you ever "accidentally" take MDMA or ecstasy DRINK THE AMOUNT OF WATER YOU NORMALLY WOULD. Not too much not too little. If you follow that rule this drug is pretty safe.

[Gawen]

Well, penfold (love that moniker - I'm a Dangermouse fan), it harms no one...and you're happier for it. That's all that counts.