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Meditation as an atheist

Started by Sweetdeath, July 30, 2011, 04:49:46 PM

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Sweetdeath

Hello James.
I think there is a connection between Buddhism and meditation, because I used to be Buddhist.  But  Atheists?  Not really...
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

The Royal Gregory James

Hmm...

One common pre-modern, pre-atheist, way to try to understand subjectivity or consciousness was to assume the existence of a soul. This assumption was based on a belief-system. Atheism do not investigate the riddle of consciousness by explanations that could be considered supernatural but with the framework of the scientific model. Meditation is the most useful tool there is to subjectively observe various states of consciousness. Telescopes and microscopes are useful for big and small physical objects. Meditation is the most effective tool to phenomenologically observe the mind subjectively, with great depth clarity and detail.

Using technology like fMRI (Functional magnetic resonance imaging), and EEG we can see how the brain processes subjective states that a skilled meditator easily can produce. This gives a lot of valuable data about how well-being is produced. Its a trainable skill. Certain states of happiness (that btw produces very specific neurocorrelates) is by persons who traditionally practiced in a religious setting refered to as something mysterious or supernatural. For a atheist this is of course not a necessary belief. Atheists like Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris has practiced meditation for a long time.

A secular non-supernatural non-belief based naturalist life-philosophy would be one that would pay interest to meditation (subjective reality) as much as it is interested in ethics (the interpersonal), and the science of nature (objective reality).

This is my 5 cents anyway... :)

Greg

Stevil

Quote from: The Royal Gregory James on July 30, 2011, 06:06:13 PM
Meditation is the most effective tool to phenomenologically observe the mind subjectively, with great depth clarity and detail.
There is no Atheism.
The only requirement to be labelled as an Atheist is to have a personal lack of belief in god/s

I have never meditated but I don't necessarily agree with your bold assertion that you have stated above.
The mind is conceptual only, if you could observe the mind you would only be getting highlevel conceptual data without clarity and detail.

Crow

hello The Royal Gregory James,

Meditation is something I have practiced for quite a while, simply because I was curious and found it works at calming the mind and really beneficial when solving problems and relieving stress.
Retired member.

ThinkAnarchy

I tried meditating, but kept getting distracted. I also fail to see the correlation between the two.

Regardless, welcome to the boards.
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed." -Ben Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -credited to Franklin, but not sure.

penfold

#5
I really started meditating about a year ago. Actually I was not inspired by a Buddhist text, but the Chinese Daoist Zhuangzi who talks of a practice of 'sitting in oblivion'.

I tend to sit on a cushion, cross legged, hands folded in my lap, eyes open. I then try and focus exclusively on something; breathing is a good focus point; sometimes forming a clear motionless image in the mind helps. One method I have tired recently is letting myself be aware of all my perceptions while trying not to focus on any one in particular. I try and do this for between 15 and 45 mins a day.

I have no metaphysical baggage about it. I do not think I am accessing a 'true self' or some deep metaphysical realm; though I agree with T R G J that the neurology of meditation is interesting and deserves serious study.

Since doing it regularly, I have found that my attention span is longer, I have become a better listener, I have become kinder. It has even improved my sex life. Most importantly I am happier.

In short; it works for me.

Sweetdeath

I do breathing exercises because I know it calms me whenever I get stressed.   Yay, oxygen to my brain! :)
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Medusa

Surprisingly there is a small group of Satanists that have Buddhist tendencies as well.
I can't meditate to save my life. I have Bi-Polar. There is no calming the misfires in my brain. I'm always in constant analysis or sitting with lists in my head.
She has the blood of reptile....just underneath her skin...

penfold

#8
Quote from: Medusa on August 01, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
I have Bi-Polar. There is no calming the misfires in my brain. I'm always in constant analysis or sitting with lists in my head.

I wouldn't necessarily give up. Meditation is hard to begin with. The first dozen or so times I had a job convincing myself I was doing anything other than wasting my time. It was only after a few weeks of regular practice that I began to get something out of it.

As for Bi-polar. Meditative and mindfulness practises have become a fashionable tool help people who suffer as you do (C.B.T. folk love it) - my old therapist moonlighted as a Zen instructor.

I have a severely Bi-polar friend (in and out of institutions for most of his life), he is Catholic and uses prayer (as well as the Lithium). While I have no faith in prayer itself, I think the fact he starts each day sitting quietly and focusing really helps him keep some balance.


edit
---------------
http://bipolarmeditation.blogspot.com/ - one Bi-polar sufferer who has found meditation to be helpful.

Hidelight

I take time to clear my head and not think...but actually meditating ...maybe when I light candles and watch them flicker for a while..with an empty mind..perhaps  that is close?

Medusa

Quote from: penfold on August 01, 2011, 10:17:35 AM
Quote from: Medusa on August 01, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
I have Bi-Polar. There is no calming the misfires in my brain. I'm always in constant analysis or sitting with lists in my head.

I wouldn't necessarily give up. Meditation is hard to begin with. The first dozen or so times I had a job convincing myself I was doing anything other than wasting my time. It was only after a few weeks of regular practice that I began to get something out of it.

As for Bi-polar. Meditative and mindfulness practises have become a fashionable tool help people who suffer as you do (C.B.T. folk love it) - my old therapist moonlighted as a Zen instructor.

I have a severely Bi-polar friend (in and out of institutions for most of his life), he is Catholic and uses prayer (as well as the Lithium). While I have no faith in prayer itself, I think the fact he starts each day sitting quietly and focusing really helps him keep some balance.


edit
---------------
http://bipolarmeditation.blogspot.com/ - one Bi-polar sufferer who has found meditation to be helpful.
Thank you for the link! Maybe I'll give it another try. I'm currently participating in Ramadan (to support the fiance) I figured I wasn't going to do the praying thing. But I can give this meditation thing another shot.
She has the blood of reptile....just underneath her skin...

Awolf26

As someone who has done social scientific research on secular mindfulness meditation, many find it very therapeutic and most certainly does not need to be religious in any sense. There is definitely scientific evidence of its mind changing effects. The only problem I see with it is, the amount one must practice to see the benefits is high and time consuming. Most often, the research consists of fairly well-to-do practitioners.

Yes, it is used in CBT with some success (Linehan, 1993). However, if you have a diagnosed disorder and want to use it in conjunction with regular treatment, I would suggest seeking the assistance of a trained mindfulness practitioner. Some people have found the early stages disturbing and that would be something to discuss with a therapist.

That is just my opinion. I'm not on the clinical side of psychology, but I have been published on the topic. 

penfold

#12
Quote from: Awolf26 on August 04, 2011, 05:03:30 PM
As someone who has done social scientific research on secular mindfulness meditation, many find it very therapeutic and most certainly does not need to be religious in any sense.
[...]
... I have been published on the topic

Hi Awolf26,

Any chance of linking a copy of your article on this? I find the whole topic fascinating, and no longer being at university have a devil of a time finding academic texts.

Actually I find the 'time consuming' nature of meditation one of its great assets. I have noted in myself an increased patience and attention span. I was wondering if that was something you looked at in your research? The trouble I have is that my experiences are merely anecdotal, so I would love to know if this effect is one reported by others.

I agree that meditation and mindfulness practitioners in the West tend to live on the wealthier side of the tracks, however that is not the case in the East, where meditation is used by people from all walks of life. Perhaps if meditation becomes more accepted in the secular West we would see less of a class divide; something to hope for anyway...

Cheers.

Awolf26

penfold,

I will work on how to get a copy linked here. My publication is rather specific and mostly correlational. Regardless, we find that trait mindfulness mediates the relationship between neuroticism and impulsivity. That is, as trait levels of mindfulness (which can be increased by practiced meditation) increases, the relationship between neuroticism and impulsivity decreases, we assume because of increased attention. Increased attention is definitely a benefit of mindfulness. Here is a link to Brown & Ryan's paper on mindfulness and trait mindfulness:
http://www.kirkwarrenbrown.vcu.edu/wp-content/pubs/Brown%20&%20Ryan%20JPSP%202003.pdf

If you want to learn more about the effects of mindfulness meditation more clearly, I suggest you check out Jon Kabat-Zinn. Lately, he is more of a practitioner than scientist, but he is still heavily published. http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~pgoldin/Buddhism/MBSR2003_Kabat-Zinn.pdf

penfold