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Stop the Wall!

Started by Ecurb Noselrub, January 07, 2017, 08:56:13 PM

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Dave

Quote from: Asmodean on January 28, 2017, 07:42:20 AM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.

Seems lots of drugs are simply posted over the border.

Prog on BBC World Service interviewed an Arizona cow farmer who said that, in places, the current effective guarded line is actually 20 miles north of the border line. Presumamby this could be because of access or logistic problems.That's a whole lot of territory, the rancher asked if America was going to cede it to Mexico.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Asmodean on January 28, 2017, 07:42:20 AM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.

The only thing this wall can be effective at is sending a message -- no illegal immigrants get to enter the US via Mexico! Because effective at keeping those people out it won't be. It's probably going to be the most expensive message ever in history.   
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 28, 2017, 01:03:41 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 28, 2017, 07:42:20 AM
Not to mention explosives, tunneling equipment and like... Buses and air planes.

Yes, a wall can be somewhat effective, but in order to be so, it will require a mahussive and vastly expensive support infrastructure. It will need an array of tunneling sensors and teams of people monitoring and servicing them, structure maintenance crews, patrol personnel, swarms of lookout drones with ground crews, access roads and so on and so forth. At a certain point, one has to ask if it's the physical wall doing the work at all, or rather, how much work in the whole "organism" it does or saves others from doing.

Look at prisons for examples of effective walls. They are there to prevent people who have no anti-wall equipment from getting away, and yet even those walls get breached from time to time. Keeping someone with access to a hardware store and a chemistry textbook on the "correct" side is much more difficult.

The only thing this wall can be effective at is sending a message -- no illegal immigrants get to enter the US via Mexico! Because effective at keeping those people out it won't be. It's probably going to be the most expensive message ever in history.

Well, so far we only have some fencing from a few years ago in Texas.  So far, nothing of Trump's Great Wall.  There are many of us here who will resist it until the end. Legally, of course.

Dave

I see Congress has approved the 12b funding for the white elephant wall, even if it damages the economy by increasing the deficit.

How will the American tax payers take to that and consumers to any increase in price for the Mexican imports?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Gloucester on January 28, 2017, 03:15:34 PM
I see Congress has approved the 12b funding for the white elephant wall, even if it damages the economy by increasing the deficit.

How will the American tax payers take to that and consumers to any increase in price for the Mexican imports?

They haven't voted to fund yet.  Speaker Ryan of the House and Majority Leader McConnell of the Senate have just said they will forge ahead with the plan.  No vote has been take yet.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mcconnell-ryan-congress-pay-trumps-12b-border-wall/story?id=45063195

I know that at least one GOP Representative in Texas is against building it in certain areas.  They can fund, but I haven't lost the fight until it is actually being built in Texas. 

Dave

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2017, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on January 28, 2017, 03:15:34 PM
I see Congress has approved the 12b funding for the white elephant wall, even if it damages the economy by increasing the deficit.

How will the American tax payers take to that and consumers to any increase in price for the Mexican imports?

They haven't voted to fund yet.  Speaker Ryan of the House and Majority Leader McConnell of the Senate have just said they will forge ahead with the plan.  No vote has been take yet.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mcconnell-ryan-congress-pay-trumps-12b-border-wall/story?id=45063195

I know that at least one GOP Representative in Texas is against building it in certain areas.  They can fund, but I haven't lost the fight until it is actually being built in Texas.

Ah, re-reading I recognise my mistake. I knew today was the day Trump would be seeking the funds, did think it was a bit quick . . .

So, a little common sense may still prevail?  I got the k,pression ftom the prog on BBC that it is not thought well of in the border states. But that is only hoping the Beeb did not go for selective evidence.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Ecurb Noselrub

There is a lot of opposition the closer to the border you get.  People who live there realize what a ridiculous disaster it would be.

Firebird

The hypocrisy with the GOP is just stunning. They bitch, moan, and scream about the deficit and too much spending and rail against $500 million to fix Flint's water supply or less than that to help 9/11 responders, but the $15 billion wall is suddenly OK because it's their side proposing it. How do they not get called out on this shit?
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Recusant

$15 billion is what Republicans are saying it will cost. That's a lie. The materials alone are estimated to come to $15 billion. With labor and land acquisition, the estimate comes to $25 billion. Given the fact that building projects of appreciable size tend to cost overruns, if the thing actually gets built it's likely to cost even more than that.

As for how Republicans get away with their hypocrisy, their loud yapping about "spending" has convinced a sizable percentage of the US public that they're actually interested in it. Their record belies that, but people in general find sound bites very persuasive as opposed to taking the time to learn the facts.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Recusant on January 29, 2017, 04:20:45 AM
$15 billion is what Republicans are saying it will cost. That's a lie. The materials alone are estimated to come to $15 billion. With labor and land acquisition, the estimate comes to $25 billion. Given the fact that building projects of appreciable size tend to cost overruns, if the thing actually gets built it's likely to cost even more than that.

As for how Republicans get away with their hypocrisy, their loud yapping about "spending" has convinced a sizable percentage of the US public that they're actually interested in it. Their record belies that, but people in general find sound bites very persuasive as opposed to taking the time to learn the facts.

I don't think they have truly considered the topography of the border along the Rio Grande in Texas: canyons, mountains, adjoining tributaries & one major river junction, lakes, and cities, not to mention the very winding course of the river itself.  $25 billion won't cover it at all.  Spend that on border patrol jobs and useful infrastructure projects, but not a useless wall.

xSilverPhinx

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Bad Penny II

I believe all countries should work together in a spirit of goodwill to impose a uniform tax rate on corporations, to prevent them moving to nasty low tax countries, forcing good countries to lower rates in an attempt to compete.  Otherwise government schools can't afford proper teachers, they have to resort to clown school dropouts and crack whores (who we all should feel sympathy for.)

I also believe in world peace, and not just this world either it should be wished for all worlds.

Oh sorry, I pasted my pre Orange Ascension Miss Universe speech by mistake, here's my new one:

Every time I look at a map and I look at those countries down below, I just feel like there's a hoard of rapists looking up my skirt, but the wall has to be so high and so long, unless....
I think all those lower people should be moved lower still, across the isthmus into South America.
Then we reclaim our canal and build our wall there, we'll have truly great wall but not unmanageably long  and a moat too. :) 
I love moats.  Oh can't you just see it, glorious, we'd all be safe.

But that map, there's still another problem.
Those haughty Canadians looking down on us from their lofty latitude.
Canada should be ours, not coming between us and the sainted Sarah.
We can't drive them north, but we'll have avocados that need picking so I propose a relocation, it's what the great Putin or the mighty Stalin would do.

Oh yes I believe in world peace but it's so hard to impose, how many bombs have we wasted in the attempt? and they're never as grateful as they should be.  No, we need to make our own country great and perhaps our example will inspire the world to be more like us, it's my dream.
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Ecurb Noselrub


MadBomr101

Here's the problem; you're making reasoned, rational arguments in the hope of convincing a bunch of GOP lunatics that what they're planning to do isn't right. This strategy can only work if you're appealing to reasonable, rational people who actually care about what's right.

This idiotic wall is just one boondoggle on a lengthy list of atrocities to come. They don't care if what they're doing is right or not so long as it serves their purpose in the short term. The wall was a big selling point to Trump's non-thinking voter base so it makes him look decisive and potent to the people who he wants to vote him into a second term in four years. Same thing with the Muslim ban, and repealing the ACA, and everything else he's going to do. He puts no thought into any decision he makes, screw the consequences.

I wish you all the best with this, Bruce, and I admire the passion that motivates you. Sadly, someone needs to play the devil's advocate and point out that the people currently in power don't give a fuck about the ethics or aftermath of anything they do so long as they benefit either politically or financially in some way. Unfortunately, these assholes see a political benifit in building this stupid wall.

Let me end this on a hopeful note though. There may still come a series of unanticipated events that could forcibly hinder or block them on this and/or other calamities they have in store for us so I hold out hope for whatever those events may be.
- Bomr
I'm waiting for the movie of my life to be made.  It should cost about $7.23 and that includes the budget for special effects.

Dave

Quote from: MadBomr101 on February 01, 2017, 08:21:06 PM

[...]

Unfortunately, these assholes see a political benifit in building this stupid wall.

[...]


They don't see the potential hole if it causes a severe dent in the nation's economy. By then they will have mixed the "plaster" from lots of social projects to stuff that hole, hide it from the tax payers, the voters.

Who worries about the needy?
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74