Marriage

[Stevil]

I'd be interested to know what people here think of with regards to marriage?

Is it simply a government recognised contract that protects and supports the unity of a family, thus if a breakup occurs then the family members get some disbursement of the assets, or that child care is properly provided or that hospital or prison visits are supported for family members?

It seems to me that government recognition of de-facto relationships, largely makes marriage in the eyes of the law, redundant.

With regards to social norms, it seems to be socially acceptable for non married people to live together, to have sex, to have children.

With countries that don't allow gay people to be married but instead allow Civil Union, what is the difference other than a name? Why don't heterosexual couples opt for civil union instead, in support of anti-discrimination against gays?

When I got married, there was no religious element, my wife retained her last name, we were already living together, hadn't had children at the time though. But I am thinking, if I were to get married in today's time, I would opt for Civil Union. But then again why bother with marriage at all?

I think an informal gathering of friends and family to celebrate the forming of a family and a commitment towards this family is great, and I would still do that, but why bother with the government legalities? Maybe a pre-nup would be important for some people, but then again, with government recognised de-facto, pre-nups are required for some people whom are merely dating.

[Sweetdeath]

The only reason--ONLY-- reason i would get married are for the benefits. I find it unfair for the most part and utterly pointless. But I know that is does give me a tax break and if my lovey dovey ends up in a coma, i have rights to see her/help her through whatever hard time in the hospital/ICU.

Other than that, it's a pretty useless contract.
A contract and nothing more.

[Ali]

As far as the government (should be) concerned, yes, it (should be) simply a legal contract that confers certain rights and responsibilities to people.

I think for the social aspect of it, people love a ritual, and the coming together of two families is a great occasion for a ritual.  Is it necessary?  No, not if the couple themselves don't want it or care about it.  I was glad that we had a wedding, and I am happy to be married, but I recognize that other people may not want or care about it, and that's fine with me too.  My only concern about it is that I think all consenting adults should have equal (legal) access to it. 

[Sweetdeath]

As far as the government (should be) concerned, yes, it (should be) simply a legal contract that confers certain rights and responsibilities to people.

I think for the social aspect of it, people love a ritual, and the coming together of two families is a great occasion for a ritual.  Is it necessary?  No, not if the couple themselves don't want it or care about it.  I was glad that we had a wedding, and I am happy to be married, but I recognize that other people may not want or care about it, and that's fine with me too.  My only concern about it is that I think all consenting adults should have equal (legal) access to it. 

Hear, hear, Ali~ 

[En_Route]

As far as the government (should be) concerned, yes, it (should be) simply a legal contract that confers certain rights and responsibilities to people.

I think for the social aspect of it, people love a ritual, and the coming together of two families is a great occasion for a ritual.  Is it necessary?  No, not if the couple themselves don't want it or care about it.  I was glad that we had a wedding, and I am happy to be married, but I recognize that other people may not want or care about it, and that's fine with me too.  My only concern about it is that I think all consenting adults should have equal (legal) access to it. 

Hear, hear, Ali~ 

I agree. I personally like being married (I must get round to asking the wife what she thinks about it). But I can understand why it would not appeal to others.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think the definition of marriage is increasingly moving into a bit of a gray area. And, as someone who is married, I don't really mind one little bit. I know some couples who are in long-term relationships, own houses together, obviously love each other and I don't view my relationship to my husband as any more "real" than theirs. If anything, I know a couple of people who are married who may not last as long as my un-married friends.

Gay marriage is legal throughout Canada, so the whole "civil union" thing is moot here. Civil unions don't exist in Canada, actually, besides in Quebec (but that province is always their own kettle of fish, anyway). Common-law relationships are acknowledged, but they're not so much about a ceremony and signing anything, as they are about living arrangements (once you live with someone that you're in a relationship with for a year, you're considered common-law -- or at least, that was the way it was when I was living with my boyfriend previous to my current relationship). Common-law rights/benefits aren't as strong as civil-union or marriage rights/benefits, though.

So the distinction between common-law and marriage is still pretty stark in Canada. I think there's still a shift in attitudes, as a lot of young people aren't in a rush to get married and are perfectly content with common-law status -- but if you want the official ceremony and the thorough legal rights and benefits, marriage is still the number one way to do it here.

[Crow]

Not for me. People can do whatever they like follow whatever customs they want its all fine with me, I don't mind if they get married to an inanimate object. Just make sure you invite me and have a free bar.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Not for me. People can do whatever they like follow whatever customs they want its all fine with me, I don't mind if they get married to an inanimate object. Just make sure you invite me and have a free bar.

I think the party is of the utmost importance.  I'm still hearing all kinds of crazy stories from our wedding and it was almost four years ago.

[Sweetdeath]

I think the definition of marriage is increasingly moving into a bit of a gray area. And, as someone who is married, I don't really mind one little bit. I know some couples who are in long-term relationships, own houses together, obviously love each other and I don't view my relationship to my husband as any more "real" than theirs. If anything, I know a couple of people who are married who may not last as long as my un-married friends.

Gay marriage is legal throughout Canada, so the whole "civil union" thing is moot here. Civil unions don't exist in Canada, actually, besides in Quebec (but that province is always their own kettle of fish, anyway). Common-law relationships are acknowledged, but they're not so much about a ceremony and signing anything, as they are about living arrangements (once you live with someone that you're in a relationship with for a year, you're considered common-law -- or at least, that was the way it was when I was living with my boyfriend previous to my current relationship). Common-law rights/benefits aren't as strong as civil-union or marriage rights/benefits, though.

So the distinction between common-law and marriage is still pretty stark in Canada. I think there's still a shift in attitudes, as a lot of young people aren't in a rush to get married and are perfectly content with common-law status -- but if you want the official ceremony and the thorough legal rights and benefits, marriage is still the number one way to do it here.

First off, Canada rocks.
Secondly, i'm glad you mention how being married that automatically equal a long lasting relationship. Nothing against marriage, but i don't even know why some people get married in the first place.
My co worker Jessica is constantly complaining about her abusive, muslim husband. Oh yeah- then why did you marry him , bitch? Argh, it gets me my nerves. Like, i really don't need to hear about her marital crap while i am trying to work. Keep it home (or on a forum like me XD )

[Crow]

My co worker Jessica is constantly complaining about her abusive, muslim husband. Oh yeah- then why did you marry him , bitch? Argh,

I take it your not Jessica's biggest fan then?

[Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism]

Not for me. People can do whatever they like follow whatever customs they want its all fine with me, I don't mind if they get married to an inanimate object. Just make sure you invite me and have a free bar.

That reminds me of when Peter Griffin tried to marry a piece of pie on family guy. Sadly the pie did not make it through the process before being eaten.  Back on topic I would agree with the majority.  It is a contract and nothing more.  I am against even getting married a country where there are people who still aren't allowed the priviledge.

[DeterminedJuliet]

My co worker Jessica is constantly complaining about her abusive, muslim husband. Oh yeah- then why did you marry him , bitch? Argh, it gets me my nerves. Like, i really don't need to hear about her marital crap while i am trying to work. Keep it home (or on a forum like me XD )

Sweetdeath, if she's actually in an abusive relationship, this seems like an incredibly insensitive thing to say.

[Sweetdeath]

My co worker Jessica is constantly complaining about her abusive, muslim husband. Oh yeah- then why did you marry him , bitch? Argh,

I take it your not Jessica's biggest fan then?

Not really XD
she has been working for 8 months longer than me, but is so slow. She 'looooves' surveying men. (I think she is a bit slutty in that aspect as she is always flaunting herself and wearing way too much make up.)
I usually dont wear make up to work, as i use my personally for marketing, not my awesome looks. :F

[DeterminedJuliet]

Okay, I know that everyone's on eggshells lately, but I'm going to say this anyway.

I find it pretty offensive to refer to other women as "slutty" because you don't like them (or because they "wear too much makeup" or "like surveying men" or whatever). SD, you often wax on about your love for equality, but can't you see that when women call each other "sluts", it's not really helping anyone's cause? If she has a shitty personality, fine. She has a shitty personality. Hate her for her shitty personality. But when you try to use her sexuality as a weapon against her, it hurts all of us.

[Will]

I've always thought of "slut shaming" as being a representation of outdated and unfair patriarchal norms in a society. The idea that women can't be openly sexual or that they have to conform to some internalized patriarchal norm seems unfair to me, unequal. Attaching a stigma to being a "slut" is just a way of reminding a woman that she lives in a world where her sexuality is controlled by others, not herself. If you remove the negative connotations, slut simply means someone who's openly sexual, and I cannot imagine anything wrong with that in and of itself. It's healthy to own one's sexuality, to represent it honestly, and to not allow outdated patriarchal norms to prevent people from expressing who they are, so long as they're not harming others or themselves.

Moreover, we live in a society where women can and do internalize the same patriarchal norms that men internalize, so as society teaches women that their worth is tied up in their appearance and their use as sexual objects, sometimes (oftentimes) women start to, on some level, think this utter garbage is true. This is one of the consequences of being raised in a sexist culture. It's not enough that women are met with external sexism, but many are met with internal sexism, by believing stereotypes and lies that culture tells us about what it is to be a woman.

I won't pretend for a second to know the first thing about Jessica, who she is, how she acts, or who she's married to, but if we're to condemn her for any reason, let it be a reason that isn't about shaming her for being openly sexual (which is perfectly healthy) or, perhaps, for internalizing sexism (which starts happening during infancy, so it's largely outside of our control).

I know feminism gets a bad rap these days, but the truth is that atheism and feminism have a lot in common (fighting outdated, backwards, unfair systems that oppress people who think for themselves and fight against being relegated to second-class citizenship), and feminism probably has a big place in both a discussion about modern marriage and about how women should/do act in relation to their sexuality.

Sorry for the weighty post. This kind of thing is kinda a big deal to me.