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Meaning of "Spiritual but Not Religious"

Started by Anne D., January 29, 2012, 03:33:20 PM

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statichaos

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 20, 2012, 04:30:17 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 20, 2012, 04:15:24 PM
I find it to be a great response to someone who claims belief in god but can't be bothered with what others have had to say on the subject.

I saw "Thank you for sharing, spiritual but not religious...person"
Why does a modern practitioner of lunacy have to pay credence to prior loons?

Well, first off, she's a UU, so her theism or lack thereof can't be established as a certainty.  But that's beside the point.  I'll let you know that she is, and post the entire passage, not as a method of preaching, but to let her words speak for themselves.

QuoteOn airplanes, I dread the conversation with the person who finds out I am a minister and wants to use the flight time to explain to me that he is "spiritual but not religious." Such a person will always share this as if it is some kind of daring insight, unique to him, bold in its rebellion against the religious status quo.

Next thing you know, he's telling me that he finds God in the sunsets. These people always find God in the sunsets. And in walks on the beach. Sometimes I think these people never leave the beach or the mountains, what with all the communing with God they do on hilltops, hiking trails and . . . did I mention the beach at sunset yet?

Like people who go to church don't see God in the sunset! Like we are these monastic little hermits who never leave the church building. How lucky we are to have these geniuses inform us that God is in nature. As if we don't hear that in the psalms, the creation stories and throughout our deep tradition.

Being privately spiritual but not religious just doesn't interest me. There is nothing challenging about having deep thoughts all by oneself. What is interesting is doing this work in community, where other people might call you on stuff, or heaven forbid, disagree with you. Where life with God gets rich and provocative is when you dig deeply into a tradition that you did not invent all for yourself.


Thank you for sharing, spiritual but not religious sunset person. You are now comfortably in the norm for self-centered American culture, right smack in the bland majority of people who find ancient religions dull but find themselves uniquely fascinating. Can I switch seats now and sit next to someone who has been shaped by a mighty cloud of witnesses instead? Can I spend my time talking to someone brave enough to encounter God in a real human community?  Because when this flight gets choppy, that's who I want by my side, holding my hand, saying a prayer and simply putting up with me, just like we try to do in church.

Bolding mine.  And, yes, she's a theist.  From what I can say, she's disdaining the popular idea of spirituality somehow being separate and distinct from community.  Not that it can't happen, but that it misses the whole point, which is to (in the words of John Winthrop in his famed "City Upon A Hill" sermon) "We must delight in each other; make others' conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body."  She's speaking towards a sense of community and togetherness, one for which belief in a specific deity is not necessary (As stated: Unitarian Universalist), but without which this "spirituality" can come across as empty and self-indulgent.


Sandra Craft

Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:53:35 PM
From what I can say, she's disdaining the popular idea of spirituality somehow being separate and distinct from community.  Not that it can't happen, but that it misses the whole point, which is to (in the words of John Winthrop in his famed "City Upon A Hill" sermon) "We must delight in each other; make others' conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body."  She's speaking towards a sense of community and togetherness, one for which belief in a specific deity is not necessary (As stated: Unitarian Universalist), but without which this "spirituality" can come across as empty and self-indulgent.

That's close to what I thought she was saying -- to me, it sounded like she was calling out people who wanted the warm, fuzzy benefit of community approval for being spiritual without the annoyance of doing the work of being part of the community (religious).
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:53:35 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 20, 2012, 04:30:17 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 20, 2012, 04:15:24 PM
I find it to be a great response to someone who claims belief in god but can't be bothered with what others have had to say on the subject.

I saw "Thank you for sharing, spiritual but not religious...person"
Why does a modern practitioner of lunacy have to pay credence to prior loons?

Well, first off, she's a UU, so her theism or lack thereof can't be established as a certainty.  But that's beside the point.  I'll let you know that she is, and post the entire passage, not as a method of preaching, but to let her words speak for themselves.

I assumed she was a theist, she was expressing disdain for a person practicing spirituality light, someone who can't take the hard stuff, an inferior.  People arguing others are less because they don't believe properly doesn't impress me.

QuoteOn airplanes, I dread the conversation with the person who finds out I am a minister and wants to use the flight time to explain to me that he is "spiritual but not religious." Such a person will always share this as if it is some kind of daring insight, unique to him, bold in its rebellion against the religious status quo.

Next thing you know, he's telling me that he finds God in the sunsets. These people always find God in the sunsets. And in walks on the beach. Sometimes I think these people never leave the beach or the mountains, what with all the communing with God they do on hilltops, hiking trails and . . . did I mention the beach at sunset yet?

Like people who go to church don't see God in the sunset! Like we are these monastic little hermits who never leave the church building. How lucky we are to have these geniuses inform us that God is in nature. As if we don't hear that in the psalms, the creation stories and throughout our deep tradition.

Intolerance of another's harmless world view, charming.


Quote

Being privately spiritual but not religious just doesn't interest me. There is nothing challenging about having deep thoughts all by oneself. What is interesting is doing this work in community, where other people might call you on stuff, or heaven forbid, disagree with you. Where life with God gets rich and provocative is when you dig deeply into a tradition that you did not invent all for yourself.



Criticising someone for avoiding a challenge whilst bemoaning being challenged and lacking the energy to push back.  No save it for later and discuss it with people who believe as you do.

QuoteThank you for sharing, spiritual but not religious sunset person. You are now comfortably in the norm for self-centered American culture, right smack in the bland majority of people who find ancient religions dull but find themselves uniquely fascinating. Can I switch seats now and sit next to someone who has been shaped by a mighty cloud of witnesses instead? Can I spend my time talking to someone brave enough to encounter God in a real human community?  Because when this flight gets choppy, that's who I want by my side, holding my hand, saying a prayer and simply putting up with me, just like we try to do in church.

This person wants to be with her own kind and put down others, that's natural I suppose, but all the god bothering sure hasn't given her much respect for other humans, not ones outside her comfortable little in group.  How does she know these people don't have a community?  Does she imagine people haven't heard the Jesus story, or seen how his followers behave?


Quote from: statichaosShe's speaking towards a sense of community and togetherness, one for which belief in a specific deity is not necessary (As stated: Unitarian Universalist), but without which this "spirituality" can come across as empty and self-indulgent.

I don't see this, she talks of "psalms, the creation stories and throughout our deep tradition." 

Sweetdeath

I agree with TMP. This person is assuming that a non believer in god/doesn't go to church automatically means   they aren't charitable  or selfless.
Whatever, but I can't expect much from a pastor.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Amicale

I'm sure you folks know this already, but it bears repeating just in case: the UU church is made up of so many different people from differing religious backgrounds and traditions. There are different speakers on different days, and they're usually intentionally slotted in so as to mix up the discussion and dialogue. That's what's unique about a sermon like hers -- you're asked to discuss it afterwards, generally. You can disagree, agree, critique, etc. And you'll be doing so with people across at least a few different religious/secular lines. I think that's pretty cool. It reminds me a little of a multi-faith webforum, really.  :D


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Amicale on February 21, 2012, 06:31:26 PM
I'm sure you folks know this already, but it bears repeating just in case: the UU church is made up of so many different people from differing religious backgrounds and traditions. There are different speakers on different days, and they're usually intentionally slotted in so as to mix up the discussion and dialogue. That's what's unique about a sermon like hers -- you're asked to discuss it afterwards, generally. You can disagree, agree, critique, etc. And you'll be doing so with people across at least a few different religious/secular lines. I think that's pretty cool. It reminds me a little of a multi-faith webforum, really.  :D
So different people from different backgrounds all believing in nonsense? Okay. :\
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

philosoraptor

UU "churches" are generally a safe place for free thinkers looking for community.  I've known agnostics and atheists who went to UU churches, not because they necessarily believed in anything, but more for that sense of community with other people who were willing to have reasoned, rational, philosophical conversations without proselytizing or preaching.  Everyone is welcomed in UU churches, so it's actually kind of a nice thing, I suppose.  Probably the perfect place for someone who describes themselves as "spiritual, not religious", because there really aren't any rituals and traditions associated with being UU, and I think the ritualism is what many of those people object to.

I guess I see the point that pastor was trying to make, but yeah, it does kind of read as a little intolerant.  Even as a Methodist, I was raised being told that your relationship with god was between you and him.  She needs to tone it down a little.
"Come ride with me through the veins of history,
I'll show you how god falls asleep on the job.
And how can we win when fools can be kings?
Don't waste your time or time will waste you."
-Muse

statichaos

Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 21, 2012, 07:15:40 PM
Quote from: Amicale on February 21, 2012, 06:31:26 PM
I'm sure you folks know this already, but it bears repeating just in case: the UU church is made up of so many different people from differing religious backgrounds and traditions. There are different speakers on different days, and they're usually intentionally slotted in so as to mix up the discussion and dialogue. That's what's unique about a sermon like hers -- you're asked to discuss it afterwards, generally. You can disagree, agree, critique, etc. And you'll be doing so with people across at least a few different religious/secular lines. I think that's pretty cool. It reminds me a little of a multi-faith webforum, really.  :D
So different people from different backgrounds all believing in nonsense? Okay. :\

What nonsense are you referring to, specifically? As someone who identifies as U.U., I'd like to respond to this characterization, but find it to be a bit vague.  I'm going to refer to the guiding principles of the Unitarian Universalist church, but with a disclaimer that this is only for the sake of clarification, and not an attempt to convert anyone or preach in any manner.

Proselytizing goes against U.U. ideals anyway, as referred to in the old joke "What do you get when you cross a U.U. with a Jehovah's Witness?  Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason."

At any rate, here they are:

QuoteThere are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

    The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
    Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
    Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
    A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
    The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
    The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
    Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Now there are also sources of inspiration for the church that draw from many different belief systems.  However, belief in the literal truth of any or all of them is not required, and in fact literalism tends to be met with heavy skepticism within the larger U.U. community.

 
QuoteDirect experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
    Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
    Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
    Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
    Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
    Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Some of it is a bit new-agey to me, but I can see value in being inspired by how people have come to terms with their struggles to comprehend the mysteries of existence.






Anne D.

TMP, although I don't know if I'll come to see things as you do, thank you for the food for thought.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: statichaos on February 21, 2012, 09:33:51 PM
Proselytizing goes against U.U. ideals anyway, as referred to in the old joke "What do you get when you cross a U.U. with a Jehovah's Witness?  Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason."


I saw a bumper sticker once that described what I like so much about the UUs:  "Unitarian Universalism: where all your answers are questioned."


Quote from: philosoraptor on February 21, 2012, 08:18:08 PM
Probably the perfect place for someone who describes themselves as "spiritual, not religious", because there really aren't any rituals and traditions associated with being UU, and I think the ritualism is what many of those people object to.

Not to nitpick (well, not more than a little) but what I object to is insistence on supernaturalism without any good reason why I should consider it.  There's more than a few people who subscribe to the supernatural in my local UU, but it rarely comes up except in private conversation.  This church is mainly concerned with social justice and protecting the environment. 

They do have some rituals (which may be the Pagan influence in the congregation) which I find lovely and would probably participate in if I were a member of the church rather than an occasional visitor.

QuoteI guess I see the point that pastor was trying to make, but yeah, it does kind of read as a little intolerant.  Even as a Methodist, I was raised being told that your relationship with god was between you and him.  She needs to tone it down a little.

I would agree if this was her general tone and attitude, but if it was a one-time blow off of steam about something that annoyed her, I tend to shrug it off -- I think everybody's allowed the occasional outburst.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

statichaos

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 22, 2012, 02:12:20 AM
I would agree if this was her general tone and attitude, but if it was a one-time blow off of steam about something that annoyed her, I tend to shrug it off -- I think everybody's allowed the occasional outburst.


That's what I got from it, at least.  I didn't see the idea of a personal spirituality as being annoying to her (all spirituality is personal in the first place, in my opinion), but rather the seeming dismissal of the challenges, companionship, and growth that can come from being part of a larger community.  As it's her life's work to guide such a community, I can understand the frustrations.

I mean, I can also understand the issues of having some sort of spiritual life, but not wishing to be bound by specific dogma.  However, most people on spiritual paths do end up building some sort of structures and practices around their beliefs, even if they aren't especially dogmatic in nature.  I consider those who follow a path due to their spiritual insight that consists of practices, works, and rituals (even if it's just fifteen minutes of meditation in the morning) to be religious in a sense, though they may never set foot in a church, temple, or shul.

Amicale

Quote from: statichaos on February 22, 2012, 07:03:38 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 22, 2012, 02:12:20 AM
I would agree if this was her general tone and attitude, but if it was a one-time blow off of steam about something that annoyed her, I tend to shrug it off -- I think everybody's allowed the occasional outburst.


That's what I got from it, at least.  I didn't see the idea of a personal spirituality as being annoying to her (all spirituality is personal in the first place, in my opinion), but rather the seeming dismissal of the challenges, companionship, and growth that can come from being part of a larger community.  As it's her life's work to guide such a community, I can understand the frustrations.

I mean, I can also understand the issues of having some sort of spiritual life, but not wishing to be bound by specific dogma.  However, most people on spiritual paths do end up building some sort of structures and practices around their beliefs, even if they aren't especially dogmatic in nature.  I consider those who follow a path due to their spiritual insight that consists of practices, works, and rituals (even if it's just fifteen minutes of meditation in the morning) to be religious in a sense, though they may never set foot in a church, temple, or shul.

I try to be as honest with myself as I can be, and although I am not religious and I'd describe myself as agnostic, I DO understand people who wish to have some sense of spirituality in their life, especially those who equate 'spirituality' with 'feeling like part of a greater whole' or the experience of wonder. I've had several moments in my life where I witnessed extreme beauty, was touched by a strong sense of love, or felt like I was part of something much greater than myself. Although I'd hesitate to call it a 'spiritual experience', and I'm fine with simply calling it an emotional one... those moments have a lot of value to me. I definitely understand people when they say that meditation, watching a sunset, or feeling part of a great community gives them a glimpse of something really special. It's not that moments like that feed my soul, but they do feed my heart and my brain. :)


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Anne D.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 21, 2012, 01:53:45 AM
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:53:35 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on February 20, 2012, 04:30:17 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 20, 2012, 04:15:24 PM
I find it to be a great response to someone who claims belief in god but can't be bothered with what others have had to say on the subject.

I saw "Thank you for sharing, spiritual but not religious...person"
Why does a modern practitioner of lunacy have to pay credence to prior loons?

Well, first off, she's a UU, so her theism or lack thereof can't be established as a certainty.  But that's beside the point.  I'll let you know that she is, and post the entire passage, not as a method of preaching, but to let her words speak for themselves.

I assumed she was a theist, she was expressing disdain for a person practicing spirituality light, someone who can't take the hard stuff, an inferior.  People arguing others are less because they don't believe properly doesn't impress me.

QuoteOn airplanes, I dread the conversation with the person who finds out I am a minister and wants to use the flight time to explain to me that he is "spiritual but not religious." Such a person will always share this as if it is some kind of daring insight, unique to him, bold in its rebellion against the religious status quo.

Next thing you know, he's telling me that he finds God in the sunsets. These people always find God in the sunsets. And in walks on the beach. Sometimes I think these people never leave the beach or the mountains, what with all the communing with God they do on hilltops, hiking trails and . . . did I mention the beach at sunset yet?

Like people who go to church don't see God in the sunset! Like we are these monastic little hermits who never leave the church building. How lucky we are to have these geniuses inform us that God is in nature. As if we don't hear that in the psalms, the creation stories and throughout our deep tradition.

Intolerance of another's harmless world view, charming.


Quote

Being privately spiritual but not religious just doesn't interest me. There is nothing challenging about having deep thoughts all by oneself. What is interesting is doing this work in community, where other people might call you on stuff, or heaven forbid, disagree with you. Where life with God gets rich and provocative is when you dig deeply into a tradition that you did not invent all for yourself.



Criticising someone for avoiding a challenge whilst bemoaning being challenged and lacking the energy to push back.  No save it for later and discuss it with people who believe as you do.

QuoteThank you for sharing, spiritual but not religious sunset person. You are now comfortably in the norm for self-centered American culture, right smack in the bland majority of people who find ancient religions dull but find themselves uniquely fascinating. Can I switch seats now and sit next to someone who has been shaped by a mighty cloud of witnesses instead? Can I spend my time talking to someone brave enough to encounter God in a real human community?  Because when this flight gets choppy, that's who I want by my side, holding my hand, saying a prayer and simply putting up with me, just like we try to do in church.

This person wants to be with her own kind and put down others, that's natural I suppose, but all the god bothering sure hasn't given her much respect for other humans, not ones outside her comfortable little in group.  How does she know these people don't have a community?  Does she imagine people haven't heard the Jesus story, or seen how his followers behave?


Quote from: statichaosShe's speaking towards a sense of community and togetherness, one for which belief in a specific deity is not necessary (As stated: Unitarian Universalist), but without which this "spirituality" can come across as empty and self-indulgent.

I don't see this, she talks of "psalms, the creation stories and throughout our deep tradition." 


Having given this some thought, I still can't muster any outrage at a religious theist (UU or otherwise) making contemptuous (but witty) remarks about a "spiritual" theist in response to the "spiritual" theist's contempt (how quaint that you're a minister in a religious denomination; I'm well beyond that). I see the contempt as originating with the "spiritual but not religious" person.

Anne D.

Having given it some more thought and reread the minister's sermon as well as others' posts, I'm still thinking the minister's remarks are, for the most part (first three graphs and first two sentences of last graph), a fitting response to what I think she perceived (and I think probably correctly) as at worst smug condescension and at best dismissiveness. (Your defined beliefs are somehow less sophisticated than my vague beliefs.)

I can see, though, how it could come across as unnecessarily hostile to someone who uses the phrase "spiritual but not religious" simply to try to to describe where they are beliefwise, without the condescension thrown in.