What do you value more than happiness?

[Pharaoh Cat]

As noted in the OP, my answer is intellectual integrity.  I realized this morning that this means I'm not amoral! 

My morality is intellectual integrity.

I think the thing you would sacrifice happiness for is your morality.

This is a pretty large revelation to me, because I thought I was an ancient Greek kind of guy, me and Aristotle a couple of buds, but no, ain't so.  The Greeks figured the right thing to do would inevitably be the thing that made us happiest.  It turns out I disagree.  The right thing is the right thing, happiness be damned.  For me the right thing is intellectual integrity.  Aristotle would agree with my choice of right thing, but would look at me like I had two heads if I suggested happiness could ever be in conflict with my choice.

[squidfetish]

My health has got to be up there close to the top. Without that I'd be a miserable bastard.

Yes, but if you had to choose between health and happiness - if you couldn't have both - which would you choose?

Good grief, I'm not sure I can adequately answer that as my happiness is very strongly entwined with my health as I'm very sporty... weights, surfing and cycling are the things that bring me the most happiness and keep me laid back.  That probably sounds weird to others, but tha's the way it is.  I have no satisfactory answer to that!! 

[xSilverPhinx]

Right now, bringing criminals to justice

(sounds ambitious, I know.)

Sounds cool, frankly.  My younger daughter is majoring in criminal justice.

My sister wants to as well. Though I wouldn't pursue such a career because I can easily imagine it getting very trying to have to deal with cowardly criminal scum on a daily basis.

But the torches get past on, and I'm happy to see such people brought to answer for what they do by someone else, someone competent.

[Pharaoh Cat]

But the torches get past on, and I'm happy to see such people brought to answer for what they do by someone else, someone competent.

Are you personally involved at all with bringing criminals to justice?  I had assumed you were, because you cited it as what you value more than happiness.

[Melmoth]

It's a difficult question to answer. Happiness is the means by which we gauge the value of our assets, it isn't an asset in itself. ie. I "value" X in proportion to how happy it makes me. So you're asking us to measure the ruler.

[Pharaoh Cat]

It's a difficult question to answer. Happiness is the means by which we gauge the value of our assets, it isn't an asset in itself. ie. I "value" X in proportion to how happy it makes me. So you're asking us to measure the ruler.

I'm not sure that happiness is the only gauge we use.  I think at least some of us apply one or more additional gauges.  Pride would be such a gauge.  Pride and happiness can be in contention, as would be the case if I had to choose intellectual integrity over happiness.  It is possible to be proud and unhappy at the same time.

[Melmoth]

it's possible sure. I suppose my problem with that was seeing the point... which would make my answer nothing, I suppose. Happiness is my highest value.

[Siz]

Er... nothing.

Even PC's assertion that we would, on the face of it, put morality over happiness is ignoring the bigger picture. We are ultimately always in pursuit of personal happiness, however this is dressed. Faced with any dilema, we will always choose the action that we believe will afford us, personally, the least pain - the most acceptable on aggregate. We will weigh the pain of breaking our moral code against the pain of the alternative. Ultimately, our aggregate happiness (or, at least, our judgement thereof)  is always the deciding factor.

[Pharaoh Cat]

We are ultimately always in pursuit of personal happiness, however this is dressed. Faced with any dilema, we will always choose the action that we believe will afford us, personally, the least pain - the most acceptable on aggregate. We will weigh the pain of breaking our moral code against the pain of the alternative. Ultimately, our aggregate happiness (or, at least, our judgement thereof)  is always the deciding factor.

I'm sure this is the case for you, since you say it is, but it isn't universally true, nor is it true for me.  But it's almost true.  In fact maybe the difference between what you're saying and what I would say is merely semantic.  I don't imagine violating Occam's Razor, for example, and reject that scenario because it hurts me or frightens me.  Rather, when imagining the scenario, a pressure builds up inside me, like steam in a turbine.  I relieve the pressure by taking the path of least resistance, which, in this case, would be to adhere to Occam's Razor.

I would say it is universal that living creatures take the path of least resistance so as to relieve pent up pressure and return to a state of equilibrium.  That path may well entail physical or emotional pain, but that path will be taken if it relieves more pressure than any other path.

Thus the question in the OP could be expressed as, "What value exerts more pressure on your psyche than the prospect of physical or emotional pain does?"

[xSilverPhinx]

But the torches get past on, and I'm happy to see such people brought to answer for what they do by someone else, someone competent.

Are you personally involved at all with bringing criminals to justice?  I had assumed you were, because you cited it as what you value more than happiness.

I wouldn't place my involvement in the same way as a criminal justice lawyer is involved, I just facilitate some processes. Neither am I a vigilante of sorts, I'm just going after those who caused me harm and my family potential harm. I call them criminals because they are involved in criminal acts (everything from slander to cyber bullying with the intent to humiliate and drive me to suicide to invasion of my and my family's privacy.) and I have spent the last year or two enveloping them to cut off their exits (I actually have no problem saying that now, what's done is done...the cards will soon be on the table) to make sure that a number of possible scenarios would happen that I could take advantage of. I won't go into further details...

Unfortunately I haven't reached the point I'd want to be in, but am satisfied with what I've got. It will do.

But yeah, it all started about 4 years ago, and I still find the motivation to never give up till I reach that goal...one way or the other. 

[Pharaoh Cat]

...

I purposely snipped your whole post because it's obvious you don't want to expand on it and I'm sure your reasons for that are excellent.

I just want to say that I admire anyone for whom a spirit of retribution exerts greater pressure on the psyche than the prospect of pain or pleasure, physical or emotional, does.

[Siz]

Thus the question in the OP could be expressed as, "What value exerts more pressure on your psyche than the prospect of physical or emotional pain does?"

Now that's a different question!

The happiness of my children might take precedent over my own happiness, but that in itself is acknowledging my own desires. The evaluation of happiness-quotients of any choice of action is based on how it would affect me. How much pain can I put up with before it overrides the happiness of my children? Who knows, but it's all about me.

[Davin]

Er... nothing.

Even PC's assertion that we would, on the face of it, put morality over happiness is ignoring the bigger picture. We are ultimately always in pursuit of personal happiness, however this is dressed. Faced with any dilema, we will always choose the action that we believe will afford us, personally, the least pain - the most acceptable on aggregate. We will weigh the pain of breaking our moral code against the pain of the alternative. Ultimately, our aggregate happiness (or, at least, our judgement thereof)  is always the deciding factor.

Pain and happiness are not mutually exclusive, neither is pain and pleasure. SM is an example of how people gain pleasure from pain. Happiness rarely factors into my decisions, and avoiding pain is also a rare consideration for me. Decisions involving permanent damage are less common for my life, but risking permanent damage does usually rate pretty high over pain and/or happiness, though I know that with most permanent damage, I can still be happy. The error you make here, is to suppose that everyone is the same and holds the same values and motivations, even if you suppose that "deep down" everyone is the same.

[Siz]

If I am proven to be in error in my supposition that my argument is a universal truth then I will concede that point. But until then I shall argue the point as follows:

I would give 'happiness' to mean the feeling derived from anything which pleases. And, as you say, pleasure does not preclude pain and vice-versa.

I dispute that differing personal values and motivations have any baring on this. What might be the overriding motivation for anyone's deportment if it weren't the pursuit of happiness? You claim that avoiding permanent damage is a major motivational force for you. Why? The reason is that the decisions you are making are an attempt to optimise your happiness because avoidance of permanent damage pleases you. Your aggregate happiness is based on damage limitation.

I challenge you to provide an instance of a decision you made that - however altruistic it may have been - was not made under the premise that the ultimate result would please you more than an alternative decision.

This is not selfishness. And altruism is by no means devalued.

Do we think that Bob Geldof is not swooning at his own achievements? Do we think that Gandhi died miserable? Did Mother Teresa decide to give up because she wanted some time to herself?
The common thread here is that all of these outwardly altruistic individuals derived their happiness from helping others because they valued it above more personal pleasures.

[The Magic Pudding]

I would give 'happiness' to mean the feeling derived from anything which pleases. And, as you say, pleasure does not preclude pain and vice-versa.

Ye but,,,, it seems everything seems to have been squashed into a word that isn't usually thought of this way.
A person may have a view of how the world should be and they strive to make it so, they may not be successful, they may not reach a happy day.  I suppose they can lay in their death bed and look back and take solace, they failed but they did fight the good fight.

I'd prefer to think of someone like Wilberforce as a hero, they fight to have their will realised.  Calling this a quest for happiness demeans it, it's too small a word.