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An Argument Against Porn That's Tough to Beat

Started by LegendarySandwich, July 14, 2011, 05:11:46 AM

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LegendarySandwich

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 14, 2011, 07:06:12 AM

You would resist watching anyone who seems young, eighteen may be legal but it's still seem too young to me.  Any depiction of someone being mistreated could be rejected as well.  Having every orifice you own filled at once may be fun for some, I've got my doubts though.

You can get ethical Coffee, Tea, Cocoa, and Palm Oil.  You could add porn to that I suppose.
I think you're missing my point (or maybe you aren't). People can fully consent and happily "act" in porn that simulates rape, and they can be coerced and unhappily "act" in normal, innocuous porn in which the two actors are both being depicted as equals. I can see where age comes in, as it seems to me that it would be more likely for younger actors to have been coerced into it, but it's not a necessity.


Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 06:06:39 AM
We're not dead, just conserving energy.
There was a fifty post requirement before new people could post outside the Laid Back Lounge, this has been reduced to ten posts.  I think the fifty rule had a bad effect.
Yeah, ten seems a lot more reasonable.

Quote from: absurdsolidarity on July 14, 2011, 07:49:45 AM
All the more reason to illegally download it!

But all joking aside...

[Coercing people is bad, greed is bad, but is porn itself bad?  Even decades after the sexual revolution, sex is still so closely associated with shame.  If we write off porn as bad, we'd be assuming all people who enjoy porn are perverse.  Really though, if someone knew that a person in the particular porn they were watching was actually forced into it, more than likely they would be against that particular porn.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. I never said that porn itself is bad; I presented that argument that you personally should not watch porn as some of the actors could have been coerced into it.

Quote from: fester30 on July 14, 2011, 02:29:06 PM
I would argue that porn has positives as well.
I agree with this, but, at least for me personally, videos and pictures are not necessary -- there are fantasies, and erotic stories, and drawings, and games, and animations, and etc.

QuoteWe should fight harder against the negatives of the porn industry instead of fighting the entire porn industry.
I agree with this. The argument, however, wasn't that porn should be banned, but that you shouldn't personally watch it.

Quote from: Davin on July 14, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
I think it is possible that some are coerced, but not all are, in order to make the point have any validity, one would need to determine how many are coerced: If the majority are not being coerced and it is possible to have porn without coercion, then the problem is with the coercion, not porn. It would be just as bad to coerce someone into giving money to the poor.
I admit I have no statistics that show how many people in the porn industry were coerced into choosing that career, but I do think it is probably significantly more of a problem than in other industries, and it seems to me like the psychological effects would be more damaging as well.

Quote from: Stevil on July 14, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
If people are being coerced then it would indicate that the government ought to step in and regulate it, make sure employes are of age, are disease free, are treated and paid well.
Coertion can go with any industry, this is why I think prostitution should be legal.
I agree.

Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on July 15, 2011, 02:45:15 AM
Yes, some of the women are coerced, and some are even drugged. But women are also coerced and drugged for pure sex, that does not make sex wrong or morbid. The act of drugging, and the individuals who do are, but not the act of sex itself.
The argument never was porn itself is wrong.

QuoteAs for coercion, I don't see the problem so long as the woman is old enough. Most men coerce women into sex, "come on baby, you got me so worked up, you can't leave me like this." "I promise if you just do this for me I will treat you to a really nice dinner."
I think that is wrong as well, albeit way less worse than some of the stuff I imagine goes on in the porn industry.

Quote from: skwurll on July 16, 2011, 07:55:05 AM
There's something you forget, a lot of "actors" in porn get paid. You seem to have "coercing" confused with "raping". It's their choice to have their bodies shown on camera for money.

Now of course, if it's not by choice, then it's rape, which (I believe) is a felony, and morally wrong.
Maybe it's the way I'm reading it, but this post exhibits black and white thinking: there's choosing to do something, and being forced to do something, and nothing in-between.


Asmodean

Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 14, 2011, 05:11:46 AMA while ago, I visited a radical, man-hating feminist blog (I'm not saying that to be insulting; she really did seem to hate pretty much all men)
I do that too sometimes, when I feel all cheery and need something to irritate the crap out of me fast.

QuoteThis is the argument:

Some of the women [and men too, I would assume] in porn are coerced into it, and you could be putting money into the pockets of a scumbag porn director.

Your thoughts?
Some clothes you wear are made in sweat shops by underpaid near-slaves. Let's all go naked in the storm, shall we? Otherwise, we risk supporting some sweatshop baron scumbag.

Food is about the same. Then there are house repairs. Check that the house you just bought was not at some point mended by an illegal immigrant for a loaf of bread... Otherwise, there are always caves.

People exploit people, and it is not at all limited to that particular branch of entertainment industry. Happens on microlevel just as easily as macro, so all we can do is try to do some homework on what we buy prior to purchase... That is, those of us who care should. There are serious producers of porn who use well-enough paid actors who actually do not mind doing what they do, and then there are slaver scumbags and everything inbetween. A quick search on the internet will get you far in filtering the crap from the ok sources.

That said, I find porn really boring so I neither own nor care to watch that particular kind of movies, but poor exploited teens were never ever a part of my reasoning.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Davin

Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 17, 2011, 10:28:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 14, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
I think it is possible that some are coerced, but not all are, in order to make the point have any validity, one would need to determine how many are coerced: If the majority are not being coerced and it is possible to have porn without coercion, then the problem is with the coercion, not porn. It would be just as bad to coerce someone into giving money to the poor.
I admit I have no statistics that show how many people in the porn industry were coerced into choosing that career, but I do think it is probably significantly more of a problem than in other industries, and it seems to me like the psychological effects would be more damaging as well.
Later you stated that, "The argument never was porn itself is wrong." So what is the issue with porn then?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: Davin on July 18, 2011, 08:21:00 PM
Later you stated that, "The argument never was porn itself is wrong." So what is the issue with porn then?
I was talking about the porn industry in the post you quoted, not porn -- there is (obviously) a difference between the two.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: Asmodean on July 18, 2011, 04:21:00 PM
Some clothes you wear are made in sweat shops by underpaid near-slaves. Let's all go naked in the storm, shall we? Otherwise, we risk supporting some sweatshop baron scumbag.

Food is about the same. Then there are house repairs. Check that the house you just bought was not at some point mended by an illegal immigrant for a loaf of bread... Otherwise, there are always caves.
See my second post.

This type of argument seems to be nearing a perfection solution fallacy: because we cannot (or at least, it's very hard and extremely inconvenient to) completely remove support of businesses and people that exploit and coerce others, we shouldn't reduce it at all.

QuotePeople exploit people, and it is not at all limited to that particular branch of entertainment industry.
QuoteHappens on microlevel just as easily as macro, so all we can do is try to do some homework on what we buy prior to purchase... That is, those of us who care should.
Yes.
QuoteThere are serious producers of porn who use well-enough paid actors who actually do not mind doing what they do, and then there are slaver scumbags and everything inbetween.

QuoteA quick search on the internet will get you far in filtering the crap from the ok sources.
How so?

QuoteThat said, I find porn really boring so I neither own nor care to watch that particular kind of movies, but poor exploited teens were never ever a part of my reasoning.
A lot of the popular porn is pretty boring.

Davin

Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 20, 2011, 06:02:19 AM
Quote from: Davin on July 18, 2011, 08:21:00 PM
Later you stated that, "The argument never was porn itself is wrong." So what is the issue with porn then?
I was talking about the porn industry in the post you quoted, not porn -- there is (obviously) a difference between the two.
That doesn't answer my question.

Coercion is not something required for the porn industry nor is it any where near exclusive to it. So what is the problem?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

The Magic Pudding


Asmodean

Quote from: LegendarySandwich on July 20, 2011, 06:18:58 AMSee my second post.

This type of argument seems to be nearing a perfection solution fallacy: because we cannot (or at least, it's very hard and extremely inconvenient to) completely remove support of businesses and people that exploit and coerce others, we shouldn't reduce it at all.
Wrong interpretation.

Because it is inconvenient and costs too many calories, we should not go out of our way to eradicate it, but if we care enough, we should do what we are willingto minimize it.

QuoteHow so?
Check credentials of the production company, look for signs of it ever being investigated for illegal activities, for independent reviews, reviews by employees... There is a lot you can do if you can be arsed to spend your time doing it.

QuoteA lot of the popular porn is pretty boring.
Well, aint that nice! We are in agreement  :P
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: Davin on July 20, 2011, 03:35:39 PM
Coercion is not something required for the porn industry nor is it any where near exclusive to it. So what is the problem?
That doesn't mean that it's not more common in the porn industry, or that it's worse than other types of coercion, as they're not all created equal.

Davin

Quote from: LegendarySandwich on August 08, 2011, 11:37:51 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 20, 2011, 03:35:39 PM
Coercion is not something required for the porn industry nor is it any where near exclusive to it. So what is the problem?
That doesn't mean that it's not more common in the porn industry, or that it's worse than other types of coercion, as they're not all created equal.
It also doesn't mean that it's not more common in the taco industry. This kind of point is flaccid without having the data to express whether it is more common in a specific industry. Once you determine which industry it is most common in, the problem is still the coercion and not the industry nor what the industry produces. So you have two problems here:

1) You don't know which industry coercion is most common in.
2) You can't link coercion specifically to porn without special pleading.

So as far as I can see it: you have an argument against coercion which you just so happen to apply specifically to porn for irrational reasons.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

LegendarySandwich

Quote from: Davin on August 09, 2011, 04:01:41 PM
It also doesn't mean that it's not more common in the taco industry. This kind of point is flaccid without having the data to express whether it is more common in a specific industry. Once you determine which industry it is most common in, the problem is still the coercion and not the industry nor what the industry produces. So you have two problems here:

1) You don't know which industry coercion is most common in.
2) You can't link coercion specifically to porn without special pleading.

So as far as I can see it: you have an argument against coercion which you just so happen to apply specifically to porn for irrational reasons.
I admit, that's true. The reason it specifically mentions porn is because that was the original argument I saw. However, it can easily be widened to other industries.

I think the point I want to make is that you should do what you can to personally stop or reduce support of coercion; if that entails stopping from visiting your favorite porn site, so be it.

Davin

After you make sure that your favorite porn site does coerce. If your favorite site doesn't coerce, then there's no reason to stop visiting it. And if you're against coercion, then supporting the places that don't coerce is better than just not supporting any because a few do.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Black36

Biblically speaking, it's not so much the act that is right or wrong from the start, but the intension and meaning behind it.

DeterminedJuliet

I think the reason why the porn industry can be exploitative largely has to do with the fact that sex-negativity is still so rampant. I think changing our attitudes towards sex, just accepting it as a part of life that doesn't have to have a moral judgement attached to it all of the time, would do a lot  towards making the lives of sex workers a lot better.


"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Davin on August 09, 2011, 04:01:41 PM
It also doesn't mean that it's not more common in the taco industry. This kind of point is flaccid without having the data to express whether it is more common in a specific industry. Once you determine which industry it is most common in, the problem is still the coercion and not the industry nor what the industry produces.

No, not tacos too -- I just had them for lunch! 

Seriously tho, I agree that the problem is coercion, not porn.  And there's an quick, cheap solution to not knowing which porn is coersion-free -- just write your own.  Or film your own, either solo or with willing friends, heck in some neighborhoods you could make a block party out of it.  Which is taking it to silly extremes, but I can say from experience that writing your own porn will also fix that "it can be boring" problem.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany